Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
HomeAnnouncements
Discussion Groups
By Brand
BMWChevroletDodgeFordGMHondaLexusMercedes-BenzNissanPeugeotToyotaVolkswagenOther Brands
By Topic
4x4 CarsRVsDrivingMaintenance & RepairCar AudioCollectible Cars
Country Specific
Australian ForumsUK Forums
ArticlesAuto InsuranceBuyingCars & TechnologyMaintenanceMiscellaneousSafety
DMV Resources
Related Topics
MotorcyclesBoatsMore Topics ...

Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / August 2008

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

1982 240D AC

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Peter Newman - 21 Aug 2008 23:04 GMT
If the AC in my 1982 240D is working I sure can't feel it.  At least not
much cold air is coming out.  I took it to my local mechanic who will check
it out.  But he said that since it uses old coolant it would probably have
to be "converted" if there's a problem.  Does anyone know what I'm looking
at, both in cost and potential problems/issues with such a conversion?  I
live on the Oregon coast so it's not as if I really need AC but it's nice to
be able to unfog the windows quickly.

Thanks all,

Peter
Tiger - 22 Aug 2008 00:22 GMT
He is right... Your car if not converted, is using the R12 refrigerant.
Conversion is simple and you should do it yourself if you have some
mechanical skill or a friend who does.

You can go to autozone to rent a vacuum pump for free... Vacuum out the AC
system for 45 minutes and then use the R134a conversion kit... about $40...
and install everything in it... I believe they give you about 24 oz of
refrigerant... you will need one more can of 12oz.... Not hard to do.

Because your system is under suction by the vacuum., when injecting new
refrigerant, turn it upside down so it suck them in as liquid and see if you
can get the second one in the same way... All you need to do is get the
system up to 50 PSI or so to have the compressor kick on and then it will
suck the rest of the refrigerant in.

You don't need engine running during the vacuum or the first can or two
injecting...

One note... very critical... once the compressor is running... as the engine
is running, you must inject the refrigerant as gas... so the can must be
UPRIGHT. You are looking for the system to be at 30PSI and stable at that
pressure even when the engine is revving... if it dips more than 5 PSI, you
will need more refrigerant.
-->> T.G. Lambach <<-- - 22 Aug 2008 07:15 GMT
My '80 M-B is still being cooled by R-12. Two years ago the price of old
R-12 wasn't much higher than the new R134a refrigerant. So compare the
cost of "topping off" R-12 vs. converting to R134a. R-12 is legal and
available; it's recovered from old cars, refrigerators a/c units etc.
There are EPA licensing restrictions on handling refrigerants; your man
may not deal in R-12 so check A/C shops for someone that does.
Signature


© 2008 T.G.Lambach. Publication in any form requires prior written
permission.

Peter Newman - 23 Aug 2008 01:48 GMT
Update.  My mechanic says I need a new compressor.  No problem  But he also
wants to do a conversion to the new coolant.  Total cost will be $900.  Any
opinions anyone?

Peter

> If the AC in my 1982 240D is working I sure can't feel it.  At least not
> much cold air is coming out.  I took it to my local mechanic who will
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Peter
Tiger - 23 Aug 2008 02:09 GMT
You are paying too much money for the compressor. You can get rebuilt
compressor at much lower price from ebay.
Peter Newman - 23 Aug 2008 02:36 GMT
New Bear compressor part is $356.  The rest is for the new coolant
conversion kit and labor.  I'm guessing I'm getting nicked on that.

Peter

> You are paying too much money for the compressor. You can get rebuilt
> compressor at much lower price from ebay.
trader4@optonline.net - 23 Aug 2008 09:30 GMT
> New Bear compressor part is $356.  The rest is for the new coolant
> conversion kit and labor.  I'm guessing I'm getting nicked on that.
>
> Peter

An option is a rebuilt compressor for half that.   The local foreign
car shop that has been around a long time and that I have reasonable
faith in, says their experience with rebuilts vs new has been the
same.   Therefore, they recommend going with rebuilt.  After the
original failed in my 80 300SD, I had them put in a rebuilt.  That
failed catastrophically after about 2-3 years.   At that point, I was
skeptical about using a rebuilt, but they insisted their experience
with them has been the same as new ones.   I went with the rebuilt
again, and here 15 years later, it's still running fine.  You have to
evaluate how much the difference would be in your particular case.
And of course, there could be differences in reliability between your
particular rebuilt and the ones my guy was using for my car.

Whether to convert to R134A or not depends on the current cost
differential, how long you expect to keep the car, and where you think
the price of R12 will be going in the future.   As TG pointed out, I
think today the price of R12 has come down from what it was years ago
at the peak,

If you do convert, some of the issues are, R134A has a smaller
molecule, so if there are any tiny leaks, it will leak out faster.
And the system will have less cooling capacity, maybe 20%.  Still
adequate in my car for NJ, perhaps not if you were in a really hot
area.

If it were me, I'd probably do the conversion with the new
compressor.   I did it on my 80 300SD 15+ years ago.  After getting
that last compressor put in 12+ years ago, she's been fine.   Haven't
put any additional charge in, except for a recharge 4 years ago, which
was due to having to open the AC lines for other repair work   In
fact, right now it's blowing COLDER air then after the conversion.
Which leads me to believe it may have been overcharged initially.

> > You are paying too much money for the compressor. You can get rebuilt
> > compressor at much lower price from ebay.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
heav - 23 Aug 2008 15:12 GMT
I have a 1982 300 TDT.  The AC on it went out about 5 years ago.  The
compressor went bad and I had it replaced.

The owner of the specialty AC shop I use in Las Vegas, Auto Air and
More, will not use rebuilt compressors.  He says that he has had too
many reliability problems with them over the years, and so he only
installs new compressors.  The price difference is not much.  You also
have to install a new cleaner/dryer when you replace the compressor.

I don't know if it was because I changed the compressor and the system
began to operate with greater pressure or if it was just the age of
the car, but after I replaced the compressor the evaporator and
condenser and 4 of the hoses began to develop slow leaks, so I had to
replace those too eventually.  I have spent about $2000 on my AC in
the last couple of years.

At the time, the shop recommended using Freeze-12, which is a
refrigerant that is environmentally better than R-12, but is
compatible with the type of oil, mineral oil, that is used with R-12.
Freeze-12 is a more efficient refrigerant than R-134a, but is still
not quite as good as the old R-12.  R-12 works well enough to keep
cool in Death Valley on a hot day.  I am not confident that my system
would work that well with R-134a.

I live near Death Valley where we see temperatures in the 120 F range
nearly every day from mid June until early September, so AC is
necessary here.

http://www.freeze12.com/

At the web site above you can purchase Freeze-12 in kits that allow
you to recharge the system yourself.   EPA regulations allow anyone to
work with Freeze-12.  You have to have a license to work with R-12, so
Freeze-12 also has the advantage of being able to do it yourself.

If you do change over to R-134a you have to make sure that you purge
the system of the oil that was used with R-12, because R-134a is not
compatible with mineral oil, and it supposedly turns into a gel in
your system if they combine.  I have not tried it myself, but a local
mechanic here told me he put 134a in one of his cars without purging
the system and it worked fine.  But I would recommend Freeze-12
anyway, and so does he.   Like I said, with our weather here AC is a
vital necessity.  You can buy the cans of Freeze-12 at any NAPA shop
around here.

Here is a routine for filling the system.  It sounds mysterious at
first, but read it a few times if necessary, and it will start to make
sense.

You only need about 95% as much Freeze-12 as R-12 because the
molecules are different in size.

Jon E from Prescott, Arizona (337 days 23 hours ago.)
Once your system is leak tight, contains the proper oil to match the
refrigerant to be used, has been evacutated to remove any air and
moisture contained therein, and has a metering device designed for the
refrigerant to be used, then one may charge the system thusly:

1. Attach the refrigerant container to the low pressure (suction) side
of the system.
2. Open the refrigerant container, thereby breaking the vacuum, and
allow as much refrigerant to enter the system as will go into the
static system. Then, shut off the valve to isolate the refrigerant
container.
3. Place a floor fan in front of the car so that air is directed
against the condenser (located in front of or is part of the radiator)
to simulate ram air (the air flow generated by a car's movement).
4. Start the car and adjust engine speed (weight on foot feed?) to
approximate approximately 40 mph.
5. Place an accurate AC type thermometer in an air discharge duct
which has the best air flow.
6. Turn on the AC.
7. Open all the car windows. (Note that the car needs to be in a warm
environment of around 90 degrees f for charging to work best and most
accurately.) This keeps the heat load on the evaporator (cold coil in
the car).
8. Check the thermometer continuously.
9. As refrigerant is added, the temperature will come down for so long
as the evaporator is not completely full of refrigerant.
10. Go easy, adding a little bit of refrigerant and waiting upon the
system to equillibrate.
11. If the temperature drops, add a little more refrigerant and wait
and watch for drop or not.
12. As soon as you notice that the addition of refrigerant has not
caused any temperature drop, you have the system charged to the point
where the evaporator is maximally used. STOP adding refrigerant at
this time.
13. Dismantle your setup and you are ready to drive a car with a
properly charged system.

This works with any refrigerant.

Note that R-12 could be charged as either vapor or liquid, with the
caveat of not slugging the compressor valves with liquid. R-134a and
other azeotropic refrigerants separate in the gaseous state and must
be charged as liquid. Their cans are designed with dip tubes so that
liquid comes out when the can is upright, just opposite of R-12 cans.
Again, don't slug the compressor. That requires metering the liquid
through a small oriface, which are available as individual divices, or
by cracking the container or gauge-set valve and thereby causing the
liquid to flash into vapor before entering the system.

I am not an auto mechanic, but an old retired HVAC tech who
understands the physics and has charged all my autos thusly and those
of my friends. Prior to this method, I tried all the other methods,
such as, sight glass, pressures, and weighing it in. No method worked
better or as well as this method.

As for converting a system, I beleive (as best as I can remember) that
the oil and the meteing device should be changed when going from 12 to
134a. All systems should be vacuumed, although smaller systems used to
be "blown out" with the refrigerant by many techs. All other
considerations aside, that practice absolutely is illegal today.

If a system is empty when you start working on it, it needn't be
recovered, but if any refrigerant is in it it must by law be recovered
and properly disposed of, as must the old oil. Also, for residential
and commercial systems, you by law must hold an EPA certification to
open a system. I believe there is an automotive certification, but I
am not certain if it must be held to work on automotive systems.
Peter Newman - 23 Aug 2008 23:21 GMT
I've been checking some online sites about R12 vs. Freeze 12 and there are
some pros and cons about it.  Do auto AC shops still use (recycled) R12 and
could I have the new compressor put in, have the system refilled with R12
and drive happily down the road?  I'm not crazy about straining the
compressor with the R134a

Peter

>I have a 1982 300 TDT.  The AC on it went out about 5 years ago.  The
> compressor went bad and I had it replaced.
[quoted text clipped - 116 lines]
> open a system. I believe there is an automotive certification, but I
> am not certain if it must be held to work on automotive systems.
trader4@optonline.net - 23 Aug 2008 23:51 GMT
> I've been checking some online sites about R12 vs. Freeze 12 and there are
> some pros and cons about it.  Do auto AC shops still use (recycled) R12 and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Peter

What does your current guy say about just staying with R12?   AFAIK,
at least some AC shops are still recharging with R12.

As to whether you will be happy with it driving down the road, that
depends on the price of R12 vs R134a, the continued availability of
R12 for however many years you continue to own the car, and whether it
will need to be recharged again for whatever reasons while have the
car.     Since you're going to have the system open, install a new
receiver/dryer, recharge, etc, you've already taken most of the hit
for converting to 134A.   In fact with the price of R12 vs R134 it may
be the same or cheaper to go with R134.

I don't understand the concern about "straining" the new compressor if
you use R134a.   I've never heard any problems specific to compressor
longevity, as long as the conversion is done correctly.

I've had a rebuilt compressor with 134 going now for 12 years+, no
problems.  The main issues are the conversion needs to be done
correctly and you may have about 20% less cooling capacity.  I''ve
also heard people who noticed no difference.  Once concern was that
the older hoses would leak the smaller molecules.  This doesn't appear
to be a problem and I've read that it's probably because the mineral
oil in the R12 system made it's way into the old hoses, effectively
plugging them up so the R134 molecules can't escape.   Whatever, in my
car there have been no recharges other than the one 4 years ago which
was because the system had to be opened for other reasons.

I went with the rebuilt because at the time, there was a substantial
difference between the rebuilt and a new one and the shop stated their
reliability had been the same with new vs rebuilt.   I would agree
with Heav that if the diff in your case is relatively modest, then I'd
go with the new.

> >I have a 1982 300 TDT.  The AC on it went out about 5 years ago.  The
> > compressor went bad and I had it replaced.
[quoted text clipped - 118 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.