Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / July 2009
Mercedes Sucks a.s
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Justin - 16 Jul 2009 21:04 GMT So My brother has a 2001 ML320 - eats a quart of oil every 600 to 1,000 miles. He has to carry a quart or two with me at all times. But that is within manufacturer's specifications so its OK. Did the Germans design it to eat oil? Since I'm a product of the American public school system I guess I'm too stupid to understand this "feature." Then there's the leaking transmission. Twice, once under warranty and once out. The sunroof leaks. Covered under warranty - two weeks out of warranty it happens again. He declined the $1,100 repair.
Then there's Dad's 2004 ML350. Another transmission leak all over the garage floor. Covered under warranty. Happened again - technically out of warranty but the dealer decided to give Dad a break and only charge half. How generous. The 350 has 65,000 miles on it so far. The rear window decided to break - the gear busted. $1,000 to fix. I cheated, found a wrecked ML and took the part off the derelict and had it installed by some old dude down the road. $40. Both MLs have the build quality of a Dodge. Check out the felt on the left hand side A-pillar.
http://www.imagebam.com/image/d6b73042261469
This is the kind of crap I would expect from a Chevy with a sticker price of $25,000, not a $40,000+ luxury SUV.
Here's a list of the Top Ten reasons/excuses MB seems to imitate Chevy these days.
10. Its only a problem with the US built ML series. Vehicles built in the Fatherland are flawless. 9. The oil consumption is due to your brother's driving. 8. The transmission issues are because you actually drove the vehicle on a road other than the Autobahn. How dare you? 7. You should expect this kind of quality from a low end vehicle. If you want better quality get a ML63 - peasants deserve low quality. 6. In Germany motor oil is taxed. By not buying oil (and thus not paying the tax) you are a lag on society. This is simply Mercedes' way of forcing you to pay your dues. 5. Opening the hood is a privilege. In Germany we pay a tax every time we want to look at our beautiful engine. It costs us €5.00 per hood opening - enforced by CCTV cameras. It costs an extra €0.75 if we want to squeeze one off. 4. Two words: Glory hole. 3. Arbeit macht frei! 2. Quality Control Engineers were too busy watching German scat DVDs to give a rat's a.s about some a.shole's tranny. The only tranny they care about is the one getting sh.t on in at 0:41:11. 1. Auto workers were too traumatized when they realized the vagina getting pummeled on aforementioned DVD was actually that of a shaved poodle.
Roland Franzius - 17 Jul 2009 06:53 GMT Justin schrieb:
> So My brother has a 2001 ML320 - eats a quart of oil every 600 to 1,000 > miles. He has to carry a quart or two with me at all times. But that [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > getting pummeled on aforementioned DVD was actually that of a shaved > poodle. There is one in every crowd ...
If you belong to a familiy owning more than one leaking MB you should consider to apply a universal covering insurance policy, that's a lot cheaper. Some Hummers may also reduce the statistical significance.
 Signature Roland Franzius
JimInsolo - 17 Jul 2009 14:40 GMT Justin was a bit over the top in his comments, but not too far off target. Most German cars are sold by name, much like Starbucks coffee. Probably the greatest engineering feat they ever accomplished was to create a mystique that would draw in the status seekers. I owned a 71 450 SL and still have a 95 S 600, and they were good cars, but service was massively expensive and you always felt that any balking at the cost would be met by some teutonic rebuff. I've also owned a few Jags, and the 1988 XJ6 was the best quality of all the " furrin cars". Amazingly, despite Jag's rep for lousy quality, this thing went 250,000 miles without a failure. That little 3 litre six was as good as a small block chevy. The Jag dealers had a sort of uppity feel, but more in the vein of " stiff upper lip" than the Mercedes " Deutschland Uber Alles". I also had a Porsche 928 which was awesome- I think the best car they ever built, but it was always looked down upon by the " coffee grinder" crowd.
> Justin schrieb: > > So My brother has a 2001 ML320 - eats a quart of oil every 600 to 1,000 [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Roland Franzius Roland Franzius - 17 Jul 2009 18:38 GMT JimInsolo schrieb:
> Justin was a bit over the top in his comments, but not too far off target. > Most German cars are sold by name, much like Starbucks coffee. Please, nobody in Germany, Austria, Italiy or Switzerland would compare Starbucks to BMW. Perhaps Illy or such a stuff.
> Probably > the greatest engineering feat they ever accomplished was to create a > mystique that would draw in the status seekers. Yes that the principle, but does not work in Europe any more except Russia, Turkey and the Balkans.
> I owned a 71 450 SL and > still have a 95 S 600, and they were good cars, but service was massively > expensive and you always felt that any balking at the cost would be met by > some teutonic rebuff. Thats not teutonic, its american. The american car dealership always had severe problems with technically advanced cars. I remember the 6 cylinder double carburetor engine cars werent exportetd to the US during the 1970ties, because they were not able, to find enough skilled mechanics to synchronize the carburetor pair and more of such things.
Same reason for the C-class, to much money for a bad service doesnt sell.
> I've also owned a few Jags, and the 1988 XJ6 was the > best quality of all the " furrin cars". Amazingly, despite Jag's rep for > lousy quality, this thing went 250,000 miles without a failure. That little > 3 litre six was as good as a small block chevy. The Jag dealers had a sort > of uppity feel, but more in the vein of " stiff upper lip" than the Mercedes > " Deutschland Uber Alles". Its a really funny projection of German haters internals. Jaguars are the only luxury car class you find at least one per month with open hood on the autobahn here.
> I also had a Porsche 928 which was awesome- I > think the best car they ever built, but it was always looked down upon by > the " coffee grinder" crowd. In Europe Porsche 911 drivers are looked upon as Ray Ban glass wearing men in their late fifties on their last ride for a young girl. You have to face that image if you drive an Porsche convertible just for fun. The 928 was a cheap Volkswagen-Porsche for everyone.
This is perhaps a bit more over the top, but the existing problem in US is the reliable service at moderate costs for full electronic cars everywhere, not only at both coasts.
As Heinrich Nordhoff, first CEO of Volkswagen after WWII formulated at the invention of the buggy and its giant service net:
"A car without an effective factory controlled service at each corner is to expensive even as a gift".
Roland Franzius
>> Justin schrieb: >>> So My brother has a 2001 ML320 - eats a quart of oil every 600 to 1,000 [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >> >> Roland Franzius JimInsolo - 17 Jul 2009 19:36 GMT > JimInsolo schrieb: > > Justin was a bit over the top in his comments, but not too far off target. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Got to hand it to the Germans on this one- they always leave the Mercedes hood closed and stand facing the woods like they are taking a leak while they wait for the tow truck. Speaking of the autobahn, it can't hold a candle to the French Peage- now THATS at highway- wide, and smooth as glass.
> >> Justin schrieb: > >>> So My brother has a 2001 ML320 - eats a quart of oil every 600 to 1,000 [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > >>> we want to look at our beautiful engine. It costs us ¤5.00 per hood > >>> opening - enforced by CCTV cameras. It costs an extra ¤0.75 if we want
> >>> to squeeze one off. > >>> 4. Two words: Glory hole. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >> > >> Roland Franzius Roland Franzius - 18 Jul 2009 06:21 GMT JimInsolo schrieb:
> Got to hand it to the Germans on this one- they always leave the Mercedes > hood closed and stand facing the woods like they are taking a leak while > they wait for the tow truck. Speaking of the autobahn, it can't hold a > candle to the French Peage- now THATS at highway- wide, and smooth as glass. Thats of course true, the last twenty years went by making eastern Germany and the further parts of Europe there ridedable. Have a look at the other side of the Elbe.
 Signature Roland Franzius
Dori A Schmetterling - 18 Jul 2009 09:45 GMT Various.
OP point 10. US-built MLs. Yes, they were a problem, as were South African built C-Class, early A Class (don't know were built). as I understand it. Problems solved, I have been told. My 2001 CLK 320 Cab has given me little trouble, and my 1993 190E (1993 being the last production year) has not been too bad either, though now I have a mysterious occasional/intermittent cutting-out problem.
Peage = toll booth, not Motorway.
Some road surfaces are great, some not. True in every country, including France and Italy. Depends on where one is. A number of German motorways are expecially heavily used as they are international transit routes for heavy goods traffic, especially north-south ones in western Germany.
The American motorways I have seen/felt in more recent times really make a car dance at high speed. But I am sure (hope!) those bumpy surfaces are not universal.
Etc etc.
DAS
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> Thats of course true, the last twenty years went by making eastern Germany > and the further parts of Europe there ridedable. Have a look at the other > side of the Elbe. JimInsolo - 18 Jul 2009 14:17 GMT > Various. > > Peage = toll booth, not Motorway. The French were smart making it a toll highway. That keeps most of the smoking clunkers and farmers on the RN's. It also keeps the gas taxes lower than Germany, because only the folks using the Peage are paying. The last time I went from Nice to Paris late at night, I was cruising at about 110 in the old XJS ( if you went over 110, the mileage dropped so much that you lost all your speed time stopping for gas) I see headlights coming strong in my mirror and a BMW 850 goes by at about 140. Naturally, I put the hammer down and pass him at about 150- maxed the old Jag out. We played highway shuffelboard for a while until I pulled off for gas- he pulls off behind me and pulls into the parking lot of a L'Arche restaurant. I was shocked to see his wife and 2 small children get out of the car.
> DAS > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > > > Roland Franzius Dori A Schmetterling - 18 Jul 2009 17:02 GMT I am afraid your are drawing random conclusions from what appears to be your very limited experience. If I am not mistaken Italy was the first to introduce toll motorways (i.e. private-sector built ones) to save the state having to build and maintain them.
Certain countries, UK, Germany and Netherlands included as examples, did not follow suit for various reasons. However, in England we do have a toll bridge/tunnel system that carries a motorway (the M25 east of London, if anyone is interested) across the Thames, and a short stretch of toll motorway in the centre of the country to relieve the load on the previously-existing non-toll road. The government thought this could be the thin edge of the wedge to unload responsibility onto the private sector, but the opposition is considerable, since we pay vast motoring taxes.
In Germany the thinking is similar (high motoring taxes etc), but the government felt it had to somehow get payment for non-taxpayers who are heavy users (previously-mentioned international heavy goods traffic). If I am not mistaken they introduced vignettes for foreign lorries (or at least thought about it).
In Switzerland and Austria they have vignettes for all motorway users, valid for a year. Once I got stung (forced to buy an annual vignette) for using the motorway in Switzerland for about 1500 metres. I was only driving into Basle from Germany, so avoiding the motorway would have been easy, had I bothered to study the map... Didn't repeat the mistake.
As regards the petrol prices in France, they are only not one of the highest in western Europe in recent times. Previously they were significantly higher than Britain and Germany. Germany's petrol used to be quite cheap by our standards, but the financial burden of supporting the integration of the old GDR is still enormous and manifests itself in high taxes. Many people are still paying a 'Solidarity Tax', an extra slug of income tax that is supposed to go when the east is no longer a burden.
I don't recall seeing "farm vehicles" on German or British motorways, so I don't know from where you got this idea that the road toll keeps agricultural vehicles off them. Motorways have minimum speed limits and restrictions on vehicle types allowed on.
So making glib generalisations based on a tiny bit of information is risky!
DAS
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> The French were smart making it a toll highway. That keeps most of the > smoking clunkers and farmers on the RN's. It also keeps the gas taxes > lower than Germany, because only the folks using the Peage are paying. > The [...]
Roland Franzius - 18 Jul 2009 18:30 GMT Dori A Schmetterling schrieb:
> I am afraid your are drawing random conclusions from what appears to be your > very limited experience. If I am not mistaken Italy was the first to [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > am not mistaken they introduced vignettes for foreign lorries (or at least > thought about it). Since some years Germany has a privately handled automatic control system for trucks with identifying boxes in the cars and control bridges over all motorways tracking the route of each truck. They pay some 15 ct/km.
The main reason was that Germany is a transit country in the center of Europe with a great deal of trucks from abroad crossing the country, which cannot be taxed via fuel.
The EU preferred this toll system from direct subidies for the German transport firms. Now after years of computer problems and delay of the airbus industries type it is of course another piece of German technology waiting for export by MB and Telecom.
Last year the toll system made 3.5 Billon compared to 45 Billion fuel taxes and rouhgly 8 Billion car tax, that goes to the states. Since unification 1990 the federal government invested 45 Billons mainly in motorways, more than half of it in eastern Germany.
Since not even 10% of car related taxes is going back into the road system nobody in Germany is thinking of an additional general motorway tax for passenger cars. To free motorways by a toll for some rich wouldbe Schumachers would rise the deadly toll by accidents for other people using normal roads then.
 Signature Roland Franzius
JimInsolo - 18 Jul 2009 20:04 GMT To free motorways by a toll for some rich
> would be Schumachers would rise the deadly toll by accidents for other > people using normal roads then. > > -- > > Roland Franzius Speaking of " would be Schumachers", what ever happened to Ralf?
Roland Franzius - 18 Jul 2009 21:18 GMT JimInsolo schrieb:
> To free motorways by a toll for some rich >> would be Schumachers would rise the deadly toll by accidents for other >> people using normal roads then.
> Speaking of " would be Schumachers", what ever happened to Ralf? Happy but not so lucky running the DTM (german touring championship) for AMG
http://www.ralf-schumacher.de/de/portrait/
 Signature Roland Franzius
JimInsolo - 19 Jul 2009 14:11 GMT I should have guessed- DTM is Formula 1 language for Dump That Moron
> JimInsolo schrieb: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Roland Franzius JimInsolo - 18 Jul 2009 20:01 GMT > I am afraid your are drawing random conclusions from what appears to be your > very limited experience. If I am not mistaken Italy was the first to > introduce toll motorways (i.e. private-sector built ones) to save the state > having to build and maintain them. Did I say France was the first ? Actually, historically the USA had the first toll roads.
> Certain countries, UK, Germany and Netherlands included as examples, did not > follow suit for various reasons. However, in England we do have a toll [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > As regards the petrol prices in France, they are only not one of the highest
> in western Europe in recent times. During the time I was talking about gas in France was about US 1.25 per Liter while in Germany is was about 1.50
Previously they were significantly
> higher than Britain and Germany. Germany's petrol used to be quite cheap by > our standards, but the financial burden of supporting the integration of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I don't recall seeing "farm vehicles" on German or British motorways, I said farmers- meaning guys driving rusty old 2CV's.
so I
> don't know from where you got this idea that the road toll keeps > agricultural vehicles off them. Simple logic- People with old beat up clunkers or farmers are not going to pay the toll when they can go the same speed on the RN for free.
Motorways have minimum speed limits and
> restrictions on vehicle types allowed on. > > So making glib generalisations based on a tiny bit of information is risky! Same risk to those who don't read carefully what is written.>
> DAS > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > The > [...] Ximinez - 19 Jul 2009 00:07 GMT > Simple logic- People with old beat up clunkers or farmers are not going to > pay the toll when they can go the same speed on the RN for free. The Peage (which means toll road) in France is usually not only faster but also shorter. Slow vehicles are not allowed.
My beat up old w126 rode it very nicely, though...
X.
Roland Franzius - 19 Jul 2009 08:03 GMT Ximinez schrieb:
>> Simple logic- People with old beat up clunkers or farmers are not >> going to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > My beat up old w126 rode it very nicely, though... I prefer D-roads. The awsome D902 Geneve-Nice in three days. La France is much too beautiful to pass her on autoroute.
 Signature Roland Franzius
Dori A Schmetterling - 19 Jul 2009 21:39 GMT Like I said, JimInsolo has limited experience/knowledge, but extrapolating from it.
DAS
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>> Simple logic- People with old beat up clunkers or farmers are not going >> to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > X. Juergen. - 20 Jul 2009 03:06 GMT > Like I said, JimInsolo has limited experience/knowledge, but extrapolating > from it. "Limited"? "EXTREMELY limited"!
Dori A Schmetterling - 19 Jul 2009 21:47 GMT I thought you meant first in Europe. I do know that the US has had toll roads for a long time.
As regards 2CVs or any other vehicle, your comments about "rusty old" seems irrelevant since I don't care what degree of rust another vehicle has as long as it moves at least at the minimum velocity required. Furthermore, if it is not roadworthy (being driven despite having failed an annual or biennial govt-mandated roadworthiness test) then it is on the road illegally.
I go back to what I said, extended to 2CVs... one does not see many rust old 2CVs on German, British or Belgian motorways...
"So making glib generalisations based on a tiny bit of information is risky!"
DAS
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[...]
> Did I say France was the first ? Actually, historically the USA had the > first toll roads. [...]
> I said farmers- meaning guys driving rusty old 2CV's. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Same risk to those who don't read carefully what is written.> [...]
Juergen. - 20 Jul 2009 03:03 GMT > Did I say France was the first ? Actually, historically the USA had the > first toll roads. Yes, right, as true as the US being the inventor of the automobile... President Obama said "I believe the nation that invented the automobile cannot walk away from it." ==:-((
Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toll_road
Cite from there "... Toll roads are at least 2700 years old..."
And how long are the former British colonies - now named "USA" - independent? Yes, right, since the 4th of July 1776, making it a measly 233 years...
When one reads what you write here in the group one gets immediately why so many Americans are being seen as "clueless loudmouths"...
JimInsolo - 20 Jul 2009 13:54 GMT Careful Juergen you're beginning to sound like the Germans we all came to know and love in the 1930's. The late great Winston Churchill summed it up with his razor sharp use of the English language when he said, " Germans are like dogs- they're either at your feet or at your throat"
> > Did I say France was the first ? Actually, historically the USA had the > > first toll roads. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > why > so many Americans are being seen as "clueless loudmouths"... Dori A Schmetterling - 20 Jul 2009 23:52 GMT JimInsolo
You are dangerously close to being a complete tosser.
You spout when you know practically nothing and you get rude when somebody from Germany points this out.
DAS
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> Careful Juergen you're beginning to sound like the Germans we all came to > know and love in the 1930's. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> why >> so many Americans are being seen as "clueless loudmouths"... JimInsolo - 21 Jul 2009 13:50 GMT This would be the " at your throat" response. Next I'll probably get a one way ticket to Dachau in the mail. Lets review some history- 1914 At our throat 1918 At our feet 1941 At our throat 1945 At our feet 2009 At our throat Looks like its time for some more slapdown
> JimInsolo > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > > > "Juergen." <jaguare@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:b8395485-b704-4fd8-95b9-10c974f4bfe9@j32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> >> > Did I say France was the first ? Actually, historically the USA had the > >> > first toll roads. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >> why > >> so many Americans are being seen as "clueless loudmouths"... Ximinez - 21 Jul 2009 14:26 GMT > This would be the " at your throat" response. Next I'll probably get a one > way ticket to Dachau in the mail. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 2009 At our throat > Looks like its time for some more slapdown Sounds like a troll to me.
X.
Dori A Schmetterling - 21 Jul 2009 22:48 GMT In the shape of a round hole from which noxious gases and brown stuff emanate.
DAS
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> Sounds like a troll to me. > > X. Ximinez - 22 Jul 2009 06:22 GMT > In the shape of a round hole from which noxious gases and brown stuff > emanate. While we're at it. What's with the anal fixation of you anglo-saxons?
X.
Dori A Schmetterling - 22 Jul 2009 10:29 GMT :-) Maybe because one particular word, which succinctly sums up my sentence, well describes people that emit noxious gases and other smelly materials?
DAS
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[...]
> While we're at it. What's with the anal fixation of you anglo-saxons? > > X. Ximinez - 22 Jul 2009 10:32 GMT > :-) > > Maybe because one particular word, which succinctly sums up my sentence, > well describes people that emit noxious gases and other smelly materials? To top off the tasteless thread title. :(
X.
JimInsolo - 22 Jul 2009 13:52 GMT > :-) > > well describes people that emit noxious gases and other smelly materials? I think that pretty much describes everyone on the planet. The ones to watch out for are those who don't think it applies to them.
Dori A Schmetterling - 22 Jul 2009 14:36 GMT ...through their mouths or keyboards...
DAS
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[...]
> I think that pretty much describes everyone on the planet. The ones to > watch out for are those who don't think it applies to them. JimInsolo - 22 Jul 2009 19:36 GMT Anal and oral fixation and butterfly for a name- Good news- BA is having a sale on one way tickets to San Francisco.
> ...through their mouths or keyboards... > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I think that pretty much describes everyone on the planet. The ones to > > watch out for are those who don't think it applies to them. Tiger - 20 Jul 2009 15:56 GMT Dori, as for your mysterious cutting out problem, check the condition of the main harness wires... I am wondering if you have that wire insulations problem that they had on the W124's...
Otherwise, I'd suspect fuel pump relay or furl pump.
Dori A Schmetterling - 20 Jul 2009 23:58 GMT Hi Tiger
I have brought this up here before.
Fuel pump relay was the first thing replaced. Other things have been done. The last thing not done -- because of cost -- is the sensor on the crankshaft or camshaft (can't recall which but have it written down).
Fuel pump was looked at, too, IIRC.
I would do this pricey item, too, if I had a guarantee the problem would be fixed. Otherwise the car is in excellent condition and, as far as I know, rust-free.
Thanks for your suggestions.
DAS
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> Dori, as for your mysterious cutting out problem, check the condition of > the main harness wires... I am wondering if you have that wire insulations > problem that they had on the W124's... > > Otherwise, I'd suspect fuel pump relay or furl pump. Roland Franzius - 21 Jul 2009 09:13 GMT Dori A Schmetterling schrieb:
> Hi Tiger > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > fixed. Otherwise the car is in excellent condition and, as far as I know, > rust-free. Tried a new ignition cable from coil to distributor and distributor cap?
Had such a problem with the 280E. Cable is an inch to short and the contacts get stressed if the engine under torque with throttle open turns to much over to the right side.
--
Roland Franzius
Dori A Schmetterling - 21 Jul 2009 22:45 GMT Distributor cap itself replaced at a Merc garage.
Would they have identified a too-short cable?
DAS
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> Tried a new ignition cable from coil to distributor and distributor cap? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Roland Franzius Roland Franzius - 22 Jul 2009 06:24 GMT Dori A Schmetterling schrieb:
> Distributor cap itself replaced at a Merc garage. > > Would they have identified a too-short cable? No, services never find out constructive shortcomings. I had the special problem of a cat sleeping at cold nights on the warm engine and biting holes into that blue cables. Thats a problem of taste. It disappeared by change from blue hard plastic to black elastic.
Roland Franzius
> DAS > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >> Roland Franzius erschroedinger@gmail.com - 20 Jul 2009 21:34 GMT > Various. > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > > Roland Franzius I have a 2008 ML350, my fourth MB (E320, CLK320, and E350 before this one). This ML has been the best in terms of reliability and quality. One -- one -- service problem, early on, with the tire pressure monitor, and that's it. MB knows their cars had reliability and quality problems a few years ago, but they've made strides -- look at how they've come in in J D Power, and now Consumer Reports says most of their models have average or better reliability (a year ago, none did).
ws - 28 Jul 2009 06:45 GMT > Various. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > production year) has not been too bad either, though now I have a > mysterious occasional/intermittent cutting-out problem. Check: 1. Fuel Pump relay? 2. Distributor Hall Effect Sensor cable loose?
Had these 2 problems before.
Cheers, WS
 Signature change to leews to mail
Dori A Schmetterling - 29 Jul 2009 13:23 GMT Thx for suggestions.
1. Replaced. That was the first thing looked at.
2. Distributor cap replaced. I'll note the Hall Effect thingy.
DAS
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> Check: > 1. Fuel Pump relay? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Cheers, > WS Justin - 22 Jul 2009 06:19 GMT > Justin schrieb: >> So My brother has a 2001 ML320 - eats a quart of oil every 600 to [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > consider to apply a universal covering insurance policy, that's a lot > cheaper. Some Hummers may also reduce the statistical significance. Yea, that makes sense. Somehow... in a round about sort of way. I think...?
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