 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / November 2009Poor MB Build Quality -- Why do you guys still buy MB?
Is it because you think it's a status symbol and therefore overlook its lackluster quality? Since when did MB quality get so bad and why? As a prospective MB buyer I would like to know. Figaro General information is that since 2004, it has been in general decline in reliability. Majority of the problem is usually electronics and latest one is transmission issues and the 4 matics. They produced too many models and configurations is why it got into trouble. They stuffed too many electronics to control simple things. My advice is if you want to buy new MB, buy as simple as possible.... forget 4Matic when you use or can use snow tires Forget the built in GPS if you don't mind easier Garmin GPS. But do buy basic luxury such as HID headlight, heated seat... etc. Same goes for the engine, if you can stick with 6 cylinders or diesel, go for it... the 8 and 12 are more problematic. Above all, always buy extended warranty, because it is in your favor for major problem cropping up on you after your standard warranty expired. I gather (from an MB garage/workshop here in London) that particular models were affected and that the problems have been solved. 1st generation A Class, South African produced C Class. Early M Class... My 2001 CLK has been fine. Current A Class fine. B Class never had a problem. Am interested to hear if there are contrary opinions. I also agree that it is wise to keep it simple, but I suspect that applies to all cars. DAS To send an e-mail directly replace "spam" with "schmetterling" --- > General information is that since 2004, it has been in general decline in > reliability. Majority of the problem is usually electronics and latest one [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Above all, always buy extended warranty, because it is in your favor for > major problem cropping up on you after your standard warranty expired. > Is it because you think it's a status symbol and therefore overlook > its lackluster quality? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Figaro My 2008 ML350 has been completely reliable. I owned 3 MBs before (2000 E320, 2003 CLK320, and 2006 E350), and they did have problems, but my latest one has not. J D Power confirms quality is improving, as does Consumer Reports (over half MB models are now recommended). > > Since when did MB quality get so bad and why? It has been my understanding that MB hit its lowest ebb around 2003-04. The reasons for the poverty of the quality are manifold. They wanted to sell high volume for what had always been a smaller luxury only player. The mechanical engineering in all of their products went through total reinvention. The electrically driven luxury equipment increased in number by multiples as all car companies started to compete on content. It put a great burden on the engineering departments, and the semi-robotic manufacturing system they use lends itself to poorer quality control. The port of Baltimore I know now runs dozens and dozens more checks than they did in even five years ago to make sure that they check every possible factory error before the car is delivered to the dealer. In my opinion, it is the way that Mercedes decided to address the increasing demands for content in the cars, which was to add hard wired electrical equipment. That lead to multiple computer systems, and strained the electrical system. Just as another way of looking at it, GM has as much functionality that it offers outside of the car in its satellite fed Onstar system. That choice allowed them to simplify their cars much more than any of the Germans. I also agree that Mercedes quality is coming up since they have reengineered those things that didn't work, and dropped those features that couldn't be reliably engineered like the Electronic Brake Force distribution they used on some early this decade SLs and AMGs. Not necessarily or depends what you mean. Mercs -- C & E Class -- have been in the Top-5-selling cars in Germany for years. Not sure this year, haven't checked. Even 20 years ago the W123 200D sold extremely well to business (incl taxi companies, of corse) because it was reliable and very economical (incl low depreciation rates). You never see the smaller-engined models in the US, from what I can make out. DAS To send an e-mail directly replace "spam" with "schmetterling" --- [...] for what had always been a smaller luxury only player. [...] The North American Market is still the major volume market for the world. If you want to sell volume, then you have to sell more cars in North America. The fact that 190D cars with roll up windows have sold well in Germany has nothing to do with sales volume globally and since the German market is and has been fully saturated, there can be no gains there. I have seen basement level Mercedeses sold in North Africa and some other parts of the world as taxis, however they do not sell in other parts of Europe, England, North America or Asia. As much as Mercedes has previously wanted to sell lower priced volume product, they were entirely unsuccessful anywhere outside of Germany in any volumes that mattered. The current C Class is of course successful in doing so for the past ten years, and the sales of their higher end vehicles went up with the debt bubble. The Mercedes Company today, its mission and market position is very different than it was 20 years ago when it sold only to the wealthy. I disagree that particular factories in either North America or South Africa are responsible for the "bad cars". Fundementally, it is an engineering and production method issue more than individual manufacturing mistakes, although those are a problem too. Actually my mother-in-law's 2002 MY AMG CLK, had every type of problem. The electronic braking still doesn't work reliably and never will due to bad engineering, the electronic starting system failed from cheap manufacturing quality at a vendor, the engine had to be completely rebuilt (at 2,500 miles) due to manufacturing error at AMG. The other ancillary break downs have been more normal problems, but to say that because the car had been made in Germany means that it is better than cars made elsewhere is belied by the record of this German built Mercedes. To me the problems at Mercedes Benz are systemic from ownership, straight through management to manufacturing and finally to the dealer network which has been expanded and pressed for higher sales volumes. At no point in the chain is there to be found the luxury ownership experience that one had in buying the car from 1970 to 1990. The company is engaged in brand debasement, and the quality of the cars has followed the path set by that management strategy. That's how I see it. > Not necessarily or depends what you mean. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > DAS > [...] > for what had always been a smaller luxury only player. > [...] "The North American Market is still the major volume market for the world. If you want to sell volume, then you have to sell more cars in North America. The fact that 190D cars with roll up windows have sold well in Germany has nothing to do with sales volume globally and since the German market is and has been fully saturated, there can be no gains there. I have seen basement level Mercedeses sold in North Africa and some other parts of the world as taxis, however they do not sell in other parts of Europe, England, North America or Asia. As much..." In my view the above is piffle, as is some of your other stuff. On what basis do you make this claim? The German car market may not be as large as the US one but it is still large. Mercedes is not a global 'volume' saloon car manufacturer like Ford or Toyota. Their efforts at buying their way in -- Chrysler -- ended in failure for whatever reason. Mercedes is certainly Europe's (and probably the world's) largest lorry and bus manufacturer. They certainly have had and may still some quality problems is known, but they are past their trough. Your mother's vehicle is already 7 years old and form that time. Like I said, my regular, non-AMG CLK 2001 Cab has runs fine and my previous W123 230E went on and on with only one major issue at 60K miles. Years ago my then W123 200 had some engine fault at about 2000 miles; engine replaced under warranty, no more problems. Given the range of models and extras they sell to 'rich' and 'poor' alike. Why is it relevant that only relatively few people can afford a full-spec S500? DAS  SignatureTo send an e-mail directly replace "spam" with "schmetterling" --- The North American Market is still the major volume market for the world. If you want to sell volume, then you have to sell more cars in North America. The fact that 190D cars with roll up windows have sold well in Germany has nothing to do with sales volume globally and since the German market is and has been fully saturated, there can be no gains there. I have seen basement level Mercedeses sold in North Africa and some other parts of the world as taxis, however they do not sell in other parts of Europe, England, North America or Asia. As much as Mercedes has previously wanted to sell lower priced volume product, they were entirely unsuccessful anywhere outside of Germany in any volumes that mattered. The current C Class is of course successful in doing so for the past ten years, and the sales of their higher end vehicles went up with the debt bubble. The Mercedes Company today, its mission and market position is very different than it was 20 years ago when it sold only to the wealthy. I disagree that particular factories in either North America or South Africa are responsible for the "bad cars". Fundementally, it is an engineering and production method issue more than individual manufacturing mistakes, although those are a problem too. Actually my mother-in-law's 2002 MY AMG CLK, had every type of problem. The electronic braking still doesn't work reliably and never will due to bad engineering, the electronic starting system failed from cheap manufacturing quality at a vendor, the engine had to be completely rebuilt (at 2,500 miles) due to manufacturing error at AMG. The other ancillary break downs have been more normal problems, but to say that because the car had been made in Germany means that it is better than cars made elsewhere is belied by the record of this German built Mercedes. To me the problems at Mercedes Benz are systemic from ownership, straight through management to manufacturing and finally to the dealer network which has been expanded and pressed for higher sales volumes. At no point in the chain is there to be found the luxury ownership experience that one had in buying the car from 1970 to 1990. The company is engaged in brand debasement, and the quality of the cars has followed the path set by that management strategy. That's how I see it. On Oct 2, 11:44 am, "Dori A Schmetterling" <nob...@spam.co.uk> wrote: > Not necessarily or depends what you mean. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > DAS > [...] > for what had always been a smaller luxury only player. > [...] > "The North American Market is still the major volume market for the > world. If you want to sell volume, then you have to sell more cars in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > In my view the above is piffle, as is some of your other stuff. On what > basis do you make this claim? Piffle is a little insulting. I could say the same thing about your assertion that Germany is the most important car market in the world. If we were talking about France and England as well as Germany being major markets for base model Mercedes Benz then you might have a leg to stand on, but Germany itself is just too small to make a real difference to Mercedes sales volumes. I base my assertions on changes in Mercedes sales number over the past 15 years. Look them up. All of what I have said is of course my opinion. I believe that there has been a drive from ownership of the company to increase sales volumes and that drive has lead to a fall in quality over the past 15 years. In my first post, I stated that IMHO the quality of their cars hit its nadir in 2003-04. Yes, the CLK is almost 7 years old now from prodcution (5 from delivery), but it was given as example of the types of quality problems that the company was experiencing then. It was not meant as an example of build quality today. That would be silly. The C class that we bought 2 years ago has been more reliable, but like the CLK it is only one car so who cares what happens with either of them. The OP asked for opinions as to what caused Mercedes quality to fall. My opinion is that increased sales volumes as well as the inclusion of too much new content too fast caused that drop in quality. IMHO all of the German car companies have fallen into the trap of building over contented cars that have too little engineering time spent on new systems, but that does not explain all of what has been seen in poor build quality. There are also problems coming from the assembly process itself. I do not think that blaming any particular factory, which has been a popular thing to do in the car community, holds water. I think that it is the chosen manucturing process that is more at fault. I further believe that these changes were intentionally come to by ownership to increase sales volumes across the price range. You ask for support for my opinions. It is an opinion. I am not going to support it. You can believe what you want to believe, and I will believe what I want to believe. The facts that I base my opinion on are mostly widely avaialable, and I have merely come to a different conclusion. Have a great day, and enjoy your car. > > "The North American Market is still the major volume market for the > > world. If you want to sell volume, then you have to sell more cars in [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > to stand on, but Germany itself is just too small to make a real > difference to Mercedes sales volumes. Actually it's Mercedes' biggest market by volume. Get the Daimler annual report and read it. >I base my assertions on changes > in Mercedes sales number over the past 15 years. Look them up. I have -- they're in the Daimler annual report. > All of what I have said is of course my opinion. I believe that there > has been a drive from ownership of the company to increase sales [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > are mostly widely avaialable, and I have merely come to a different > conclusion. Have a great day, and enjoy your car. Quite! To Howard re "your assertion that Germany is the most important car market in the world." That, too, is piffle, as I made no such claim. Nor did you provide any support for your claim about MB cars being for the wealthy, even 20 years ago. I think my use of the word is quite justified, as it means "nonsense": http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/piffle?view=uk " It is an opinion. I am not going to support it." Correct. "The facts that I base my opinion on are mostly widely avaialable..." That's the question! The fact that MB had quality issues on some models is not in dispute, and I am sure the heavy loading with 'cutting-edge' electroncs has something to do with it. Furthermore there have been and probably still are dealer issues in Europe and North America, though I have been lucky with my experiences. The Merc-owned garage I use in west London (no sales showroom attached!) has given me very good service without always trying to charge me top dollar. To counteract problems in the UK the company bought up the dealerships in the three (or four, can't remember) main metropolitan areas as they became available, having previously only owned a handful (or less). DAS To send an e-mail directly replace "spam" with "schmetterling" --- On Oct 7, 12:22 pm, Howard <ho...@juno.com> wrote: > On Oct 5, 5:55 pm, "Dori A Schmetterling" <nob...@spam.co.uk> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > to stand on, but Germany itself is just too small to make a real > difference to Mercedes sales volumes. Actually it's Mercedes' biggest market by volume. Get the Daimler annual report and read it. >I base my assertions on changes > in Mercedes sales number over the past 15 years. Look them up. I have -- they're in the Daimler annual report. > All of what I have said is of course my opinion. I believe that there > has been a drive from ownership of the company to increase sales [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > are mostly widely avaialable, and I have merely come to a different > conclusion. Have a great day, and enjoy your car. > Is it because you think it's a status symbol and therefore overlook > its lackluster quality? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Figaro If you are aware of this why do you keep looking at MB? I'm very disappointed with german car quality in general! A lexus LS460 will blow away just about any german luxury car. I've seen several comparisons with the LS460 vs the S class. Several journalists say the Lexus is superior and for about half the price. Have you seen the Lexus LS460? It truly is amazing AND RELIABLE!!!! Good luck, Oskar pheonix1t@gmail.com schrieb: >> Is it because you think it's a status symbol and therefore overlook >> its lackluster quality? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Have you seen the Lexus LS460? It truly is amazing AND RELIABLE!!!! According to the discussions in this group German cars were of poorest qualitiy during the period following Gerhard Schröders rejection of Bushs Iraq war. SignatureRoland Franzius > pheoni...@gmail.com schrieb: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Roland Franzius Hmm... Interesting, very interesting. I learned part of the reason (at least in USA) started in early 1980's (I think 1982) when MB cars started to be built in USA. These cars were of inferior quality to the german made autos. I also learned around the same time, MB management outsourced their electrical systems to a chinese company. The chinese electrical systems barely met the specs, while the german made electrical systems surpassed the specs by a long shot (typical of germans). The #1 problem is reliability - especially electrical systems. It's been decades now and the damage will be hard to undo. MB isn't the only one. Audi is aweful, so are VW. Porsche and BMW have the least amount of reliability problems but they are not better than the reliability of Honda or Toyota (Acura, Infiniti or Lexus if you want Luxury models). The sad fact is the Japanese companies make more reliable cars than the Germans. This has been going on for at least 15-20 years now. I now have a Lexus LS 430 and I can tell you for the past 20k miles the only things I've done to it are oil changes!! In the same amount of time I had to bring my BMW in several times to the dealer (factory BMW cooling systems are weak - this is easy to fix with aftermarket cooling system - but it is annoying while car is under warranty). Several of my friends have MB S class cars (a few 500's and 1 420). These cars are constantly at mechanic. Much more than the BMW. Years range from 1987 - 2005. All of them have serious electrical problems along with less serious (but annoying) mechanical. I've noticed lots of people in USA who buy german cars only keep them for 1st 3 years then get rid of them. Keeping a german car in USA without warranty (factory or extended) is foolish!! This is the current state of german autos in USA. The Lexus doesn't feel as good as the BMW (I had 5 series) but it is extremely reliable! I've gotten to the point that I'm willing to give up the great road feel of the BMW for excellent reliability of the Lexus. My next car will be the LS460. I looked at the 7 series BMW but after looking at their reliability issues (about same as MB cars) I changed my mind! To get my 'need for speed' I purchased 2 motorcycles. A Suzuki Boulevard C90T (a very comfy cruiser) and a Suzuki SV650 (a v-twin sport bike) for track use. These bikes are a blast to ride!! They are also extremely reliable!! Don't know if my solution will work for others, but this is what I came up with. The motorcycles have the great handling of the BMW (without all the breakdowns) and the Lexus has great luxury (without all the breakdowns). This solution also costs WAY less $$$ than owning a german luxury car!! Lots of fun and MUCH less frustration. Good luck!! Oskar On Oct 4, 5:19 pm, "pheoni...@gmail.com" <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote: > > pheoni...@gmail.com schrieb: > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > The sad fact is the Japanese companies make more reliable cars than > the Germans. True, but if that were the main criteria for buying a car, everyone would be driving Hondas. >This has been going on for at least 15-20 years now. > I now have a Lexus LS 430 and I can tell you for the past 20k miles > the only things I've done to it are oil changes!! Good for you. You seem to be proud of driving an appliance. > In the same amount of time I had to bring my BMW in several times to > the dealer (factory BMW cooling systems are weak - this is easy to fix [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > car in USA without warranty (factory or extended) is foolish!! This > is the current state of german autos in USA. Now they're better. Look at Consumer Reports -- half MBs are reliable enough to be recommended. > The Lexus doesn't feel as good as the BMW (I had 5 series) but it is > extremely reliable! So is a refrigerator. >I've gotten to the point that I'm willing to give > up the great road feel of the BMW for excellent reliability of the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Suzuki SV650 (a v-twin sport bike) for track use. These bikes are a > blast to ride!! They are also extremely reliable!! OK, I hope you have an organ donor card. > Don't know if my solution will work for others, but this is what I > came up with. The motorcycles have the great handling of the BMW > (without all the breakdowns) and the Lexus has great luxury (without > all the breakdowns). Like buying a calculator, a typewriter, and a calendar instead of a computer, it would seem. > This solution also costs WAY less $$$ than owning a german luxury > car!! Lots of fun and MUCH less frustration. Until your motorcycle turns you into road kill. > Good luck!! > > Oskar On Oct 5, 4:18 pm, "erschroedin...@gmail.com" <erschroedin...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 4, 5:19 pm, "pheoni...@gmail.com" <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > > > Oskar wow, u seem like one of those old fools who's in denial that MB quality stinks. How logical is it to pay double, triple or even more than that for a MB that spends way too much time having to be repaired!!! that is a picture of a fool if you ask me! Oh, but MB is a status symbol...whatever! It's a head-trip! If you had read my post you'd see I had what would be considered a fine german auto but was very disappointed by all the trips to dealer for repairs. When you have to drive a loaner car because your car has 'issues', it doesn't matter how fast your car is or how it handles! It's at the repair shop!!! AGAIN!!! If you enjoy driving loaner cars than I hope you get plenty of that with your mercedes auto! I'll be driving MY Lexus!! AGAIN!!! Oskar > How logical is it to pay double, triple or even more than that for a > MB that spends way too much time having to be repaired!!! > that is a picture of a fool if you ask me! > Oh, but MB is a status symbol...whatever! It's a head-trip! That's the whole point of status symbols. They're expensive and inefficient, but the fact that you can afford that gives you status. X. >> How logical is it to pay double, triple or even more than that for a >> MB that spends way too much time having to be repaired!!! [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > X. Me, I couldn't care less about status symbols because I really don't give a rip what folks like you think. My '92 300D has been paid for 10 years, gets 30mpg, looks like a million bucks and other than expected repairs at 250,000 miles is as reliable as a hammer. >>> How logical is it to pay double, triple or even more than that for a >>> MB that spends way too much time having to be repaired!!! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Me, I couldn't care less about status symbols because I really don't > give a rip what folks like you think. My '92 300D has been paid for 10 What exactly do you mean by 'folks like me'? > years, gets 30mpg, looks like a million bucks and other than expected > repairs at 250,000 miles is as reliable as a hammer. Well, good for you! X. On Oct 5, 8:16 pm, "pheoni...@gmail.com" <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 5, 4:18 pm, "erschroedin...@gmail.com" > [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] > u seem like one of those old fools who's in denial that MB quality > stinks. It's getting better. Look at J D Power, or Consumer Reports. > How logical is it to pay double, triple or even more than that for a > MB that spends way too much time having to be repaired!!! See above. > that is a picture of a fool if you ask me! > Oh, but MB is a status symbol...whatever! It's a head-trip! So are clothes (you could wear sackcloth), house (you could live in a shack or a tent), ... > If you had read my post you'd see I had what would be considered a > fine german auto but was very disappointed by all the trips to dealer > for repairs. And I told you, M-B quality has improved. > When you have to drive a loaner car because your car has 'issues', it > doesn't matter how fast your car is or how it handles! > It's at the repair shop!!! AGAIN!!! > > If you enjoy driving loaner cars than I hope you get plenty of that > with your mercedes auto! In 18 months, my Ml350 has been to the dealer only twice for non- routine service -- once right after I bought it, when the tire pressure monitoring system failed, and once for a recall to reweld the trailer hitch. > I'll be driving MY Lexus!! AGAIN!!! See this recently? Sliding floor mats lead to biggest Toyota, Lexus recall Check out http://www.automallusa.net/01/lexus/recalls.html > Oskar On Oct 6, 10:55 am, "erschroedin...@gmail.com" <erschroedin...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 5, 8:16 pm, "pheoni...@gmail.com" <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 151 lines] > > > Oskar Lexus has a recall for floor mats!!! MB has serious electrical and mechanical problems! I don't have a problem with my floor mats (attached to floor near seat bolts with hooks). If I did have bad floor mats, I'd remove them - problem solved. Try that with any german auto with electrical/mechanical problems :) If only it was that simple to fix... Oskar On Oct 7, 9:55 pm, "pheoni...@gmail.com" <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 6, 10:55 am, "erschroedin...@gmail.com" > [quoted text clipped - 157 lines] > Lexus has a recall for floor mats!!! > MB has serious electrical and mechanical problems! Really? You can cite a recent recall? > I don't have a problem with my floor mats (attached to floor near seat > bolts with hooks). > If I did have bad floor mats, I'd remove them - problem solved. Wouldn't you think the Lexus product planners and engineers might have noticed something as obvious and as simple as the floor mats? Lots easier to see a problem with them than some electronic device. > Try that with any german auto with electrical/mechanical problems :) > If only it was that simple to fix... > > Oskar On Oct 8, 5:07 pm, "erschroedin...@gmail.com" <erschroedin...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 7, 9:55 pm, "pheoni...@gmail.com" <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 174 lines] > > > Oskar Lexus isn't the one with aweful reliability issues! That's Mercedes (as well as other german cars). Lexus is famous for RELIABLE!! pheonix1t@gmail.com schrieb: > Lexus isn't the one with aweful reliability issues! That's Mercedes > (as well as other german cars). > Lexus is famous for RELIABLE!! Perhaps you should read the statistics of the German automobile club ADAC. Without any doubt the German auto market is the most important in the world with respect to engineering and testing. The ADAC has its road assistance service and without any prejudice gives the number of events recorded on the German autobahn system for each brand and type. After a decade of leading places in reliability by Japanese brands - especially Toyota - they see a steady decline in reliability of Japanese cars. Nearly all leading places in all classes go now to cars from MB, BMW, VW, AUDI and Citroen. http://www1.adac.de/adac-im-einsatz/motorwelt/m_archiv/pannenstatistik/2007.asp? ComponentID=212231&SourcePageID=214856 http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannenstatistik_maengelforum/pannenstatistik_2 008/tab.asp?ComponentID=250016&SourcePageID=250114 http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannenstatistik_maengelforum/pannenstatistik_2 008/deutsche_autos_ganz_vorn/default.asp?ComponentID=249532&SourcePageID=250114 Of course they dont ask the owners if they are satisfied with what they got for their money. Thats of interest for selling policy only. With respect to the Lexus especially in Germany: If you buy a Lexus you will have problems to sell it after some years. There is no second hand market for not so much appreciated used luxury cars. SignatureRoland Franzius These ADAC statistics are useful (you don't have a link to the full results, so you, or does it need a subscription?). I have not seen them in years, before which I saw them annually. I concur that in all classes where the Japanese brands were represented they came top. Interesting that they don't anymore. One should add that only makes selling >10 000 per year are included (or whatever the number is now). The once thing that the statistics do not take into account is the mileage. Thus the big Mercs and BMWs seemed to have a lot of various faults, but when normalised by mileage (many of these big saloons incurred very high annual mileages) they were not really bad. It is a real pity that the British equivalent of the ADAC, the Automobile Association (AA) or its slightly smaller sister (RAC) do not publish their breakdown stats. I suppose they are too scared of the manufacturers. Maybe it won't look good when Britain's best-selling cars like the Ford Focus turn out to be 'lemons'... DAS To send an e-mail directly replace "spam" with "schmetterling" --- [...] > The ADAC has its road assistance service and without any prejudice gives > the number of events recorded on the German autobahn system for each brand [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannenstatistik_maengelforum/pannenstatistik_2 008/tab.asp?ComponentID=250016&SourcePageID=250114 > http://www1.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannenstatistik_maengelforum/pannenstatistik_2 008/deutsche_autos_ganz_vorn/default.asp?ComponentID=249532&SourcePageID=250114 [...] > pheoni...@gmail.com schrieb: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Roland Franzius I can't say anything for the validity of what you're posting. I'm in USA. I can state in USA german cars have poor reliablity. This is from consumer reports, NHTSA, JD Powers. This is for at least the past 10 years. Lexus has won 14 years for JD Powers dependability. http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/07/lexus-leads-j-d-power-dependability-study-14t h-year-straight/ No german auto maker can claim this. I'm pretty sure more autos are sold in USA than Germany. Interesting to see the results from different markets.... I can say that I believe European drivers are probably safer (better) drivers than most Americans. There are way too many drunk driving accidents/deaths in USA. Oskar Are you suggesting that the largest motoring organsation in Europe is producing lies? The difference between publications like Consumer Reports and the ADAC breakdown statistics is that the latter is based on facts. The statistics are based on actual breakdowns they have handled, and have nothing to do with perceptions and prejudice, nor with quality of driving or rate of accidents. However, quality of maintenance may have a bearing. Try asking the AAA for its annual figures. I bet they have them. If they don't, they're daft. DAS To send an e-mail directly replace "spam" with "schmetterling" --- [...] > Perhaps you should read the statistics of the German automobile club > ADAC. Without any doubt the German auto market is the most important in [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Roland Franzius I can't say anything for the validity of what you're posting. I'm in USA. I can state in USA german cars have poor reliablity. This is from consumer reports, NHTSA, JD Powers. This is for at least the past 10 years. Lexus has won 14 years for JD Powers dependability. http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/07/lexus-leads-j-d-power-dependability-study-14t h-year-straight/ No german auto maker can claim this. I'm pretty sure more autos are sold in USA than Germany. Interesting to see the results from different markets.... I can say that I believe European drivers are probably safer (better) drivers than most Americans. There are way too many drunk driving accidents/deaths in USA. Oskar > Are you suggesting that the largest motoring organsation in Europe is > producing lies? [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > Oskar If you would take the time to read the NHTSA website: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ you would see they also gather their info from stats, not from opinions. Since I can't understand German I have no idea what the link you provided says! However, it does seem very convenient that ADAC gives all german autos the highest marks. That does seem VERY convenient. In USA, the big auto makers don't like stats for breakdowns to be published. There have been several lawsuits over making this kind of info public. Consumer reports (among others) has been through several big law suits due to this. From what I recall, the supreme courts usually side with consumer reports most of the time. Consumer reports got sued by smarter image for making information public regarding the poor performance of 'ionic breeze' air purifier. According to the commercials the smarter image product was the best you can get. After consumer reports did scientific testing, the results showed the smarter image product had poor performance!! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16715088/ As you can see above, smarter image settled the case because it was obvious as hell their product wasn't all it was hyped to be. Car companies do the same thing.... http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/17/autos/pluggedin_Taylor_Mercedes.fortune/index.htm I gave no link. Your problem seems to be that you can't stand 'German cars' being top of the table. The point the OP was making was that after years of Japanese cars dominating most of the tables they are slipping down. If you bother to read the rest of the related correspondence, incl mine, you will see that only cars that exceed a certain sales figure (10 000 per year when I was readin the tables) are included to ensure some statistical validity. The ADAC does not issue opinions. DAS SignatureTo send an e-mail directly replace "spam" with "schmetterling" --- [...] If you would take the time to read the NHTSA website: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ you would see they also gather their info from stats, not from opinions. Since I can't understand German I have no idea what the link you provided says! However, it does seem very convenient that ADAC gives all german autos the highest marks. That does seem VERY convenient. In USA, the big auto makers don't like stats for breakdowns to be published. There have been several lawsuits over making this kind of info public. Consumer reports (among others) has been through several big law suits due to this. From what I recall, the supreme courts usually side with consumer reports most of the time. Consumer reports got sued by smarter image for making information public regarding the poor performance of 'ionic breeze' air purifier. According to the commercials the smarter image product was the best you can get. After consumer reports did scientific testing, the results showed the smarter image product had poor performance!! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16715088/ As you can see above, smarter image settled the case because it was obvious as hell their product wasn't all it was hyped to be. Car companies do the same thing.... http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/17/autos/pluggedin_Taylor_Mercedes.fortune/index.htm PS. The data the ADAC publishes is very detailed. What Roland Franzius posted is just the 'tip of the iceberg'. The info is classified by class of car (e.g. compact, medium, large etc) and type of breakdown, such as electrical and so on. The only shortcoming that I saw was that there was no relation between frequency of breakdown and annual mileage covered. Thus the bigger saloons tended to have more breakdowns, but it was also known that these tended to cover greater distances. However failures per mile was not calculated. I have not seen the detail myself for years as my access to the members' magazine ended, so don't know exactly what they publish these days. Maybe Roland can tell us. I had a quick look at the NHTSA website you (pheonix1) mentioned but could not easily see breakdown statistics. Anyway, unless the AAA and similar organisations report their internal data to the government, the NHTSA would have no insight into what actually happens. All I saw was a Recalls section, which is not the same thing. Your statement "In USA, the big auto makers don't like stats for breakdowns to be published. There have been several lawsuits over making this kind of info public." says it all. And why don't they like it? Because it would show them up. I think this supports Roland F's contention that "the German auto market is the most important in the world with respect to engineering and testing." It is the only one where the mechanical facts about cars are made public. Read his post again, this time more carefully. DAS To send an e-mail directly replace "spam" with "schmetterling" --- >I gave no link. > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > Car companies do the same thing.... > http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/17/autos/pluggedin_Taylor_Mercedes.fortune/index.htm > PS. The data the ADAC publishes is very detailed. What Roland Franzius > posted is just the 'tip of the iceberg'. [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > > Car companies do the same thing.... > >http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/17/autos/pluggedin_Taylor_Mercedes.fortu... DAS, I think what you are saying is correct. I do notice that getting accurate information about this sort of thing is hard! I do not recall the law suits regarding automakers in USA blocking breakdown info being made public but I'm sure google can show it! Oskar "pheoni...@gmail.com" <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote: > > PS. The data the ADAC publishes is very detailed. What Roland Franzius > > posted is just the 'tip of the iceberg'. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > was not calculated. > > ... > DAS, > I think what you are saying is correct. I do notice that getting > accurate information about this sort of thing is hard! And this includes "In Spades" reading the fine print on any so-called 'data' that is found. For example, the JD Powers report that was provided has in its caveats: "...subjectivity can skew the results. For instance, Lexus owners may tend to report that their vehicles are running just fine out of pride and loyalty to their brand." The bottom line is that when you have self-selection bias present and variations in reportability threshholds, your conclusions are going to be effectively worthless. FYI, CR has this same problem with under/ over reporting behaviors, which can make its statements also a bit dicey. Finally, even if one is able to be fully objective in one's reliability analysis another factor that needs to be taken into account is the "period of performance" of interest. For example, one can design a product so that it has great reliability during its warranty, but then falls apart, or one can design the product to generally last, even if this results in more random near-term failures. A classic example of this is the Toyota Camry (aka Lexus E250, if you recall back a few years): it has a great reputation of being trouble- free for the first ~100K miles ... and then everything breaks down virtually at once. If you spend several thousand to get all of these repairs done, the car is then good to around 175K miles...and then you have another rash of multiple breakdowns again. As such, if you only keep your Toyota for (proverbially) 99,999 miles before you sell it, congratulations, you've dodged those failures and you claim that its reliability is bulletproof ... its merely the 2nd owner who gets nailed with $5K worth of repairs in his first ~25K miles, which means that he's going to have an entirely different opinion on Toyota's reliability. And all of this is said to simply illustrate that when we take a step back for a holistic look at reliability, we can see how critically important it can be for where we choose to draw the lines for our period of interest. -hh On Oct 11, 6:31 pm, "pheoni...@gmail.com" <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Are you suggesting that the largest motoring organsation in Europe is > > producing lies? [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > you would see they also gather their info from stats, not from > opinions. What stats? > Since I can't understand German I have no idea what the link you > provided says! [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > published. > There have been several lawsuits over making this kind of info public. Name the lawsuits. > Consumer reports (among others) has been through several big law suits > due to this. CR was sued by Suzuki for saying the Samurai tips over too easily. That's the only auto maker that's sued that I know of. Nothing about reliability. > From what I recall, the supreme courts usually side with consumer > reports most of the time. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > As you can see above, smarter image settled the case because it was > obvious as hell their product wasn't all it was hyped to be. What does that have to do with reliability data? > Car companies do the same thing....http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/17/autos/pluggedin_Taylor_Mercedes.fortu... On Oct 10, 2:44 am, "pheoni...@gmail.com" <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote: > > pheoni...@gmail.com schrieb: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > USA. > I can state in USA german cars have poor reliablity. Some do, some don't. >This is from > consumer reports, NHTSA, JD Powers. Again, some do and some don't. And NHTSA doesn't track or tank reliability. That you think they do, well... > This is for at least the past 10 years. Lexus has won 14 years for JD > Powers dependability. Yes, I agree, Lexus is reliable (although last year one model was not recommended by Consumer Reports due to sub-par reliability). But if that's all that matters, we'd all be driving a Prius (tops in reliability). > http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/07/lexus-leads-j-d-power-dependabilit... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Oskar > pheoni...@gmail.com schrieb: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Roland Franzius Funny discussion anyway. People who hate Mercedes but love Lexus should buy Lexus and stay happy that way. Here (in Denmark) Mercedes is still a very popular car, in particular by Taxi owners. Cars are reliable (not wirhout flaws thouh), service is brilliant (necessary to make up for the flaws) and reselling market is good. These are all important parameters for their business, and this makes the picture more complete talking about total reliability. Another important aspect is the Mercedes spare parts policy. Prices are in general very reasonable in particular compared to Japanese cars. And they are almost always readily available from one day to the next, even for very old models. Japanese cars are usually not guaranteed supported wtih spare parts for more than 10 years. Yes, there has in a period been some serious flaws, which Mercedes was reluctant to admit. That of course points quite a bit downwards, but not enough to make people like me stop loving it. Jens schrieb: >> pheoni...@gmail.com schrieb: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Funny discussion anyway. People who hate Mercedes but love Lexus > should buy Lexus and stay happy that way. You are right of course, its a matter of taste and money. The L.A. Times just had an article about a new Lexus. Here is a link and a picture http://www.autospies.com/news/LA-Times-Writer-HAMMERS-Design-Of-New-Lexus-HS250h -Sedan-49279/ SignatureRoland Franzius My wife wanted a 2009 Hyundai Sonata. I got that for her, but I will always love, drive and keep on fixing up. My 1989 560 SEL is part of me. I will keep her and hope that my son (6 yo) will keep it after I'm gone. I always wanted that car and I have gotten her, she will always be my obsession. For all who want a Lexus, Infinities, etc..... get and enjoy yours too! On Oct 9, 9:57 am, Roland Franzius <roland.franz...@uos.de> wrote: > pheoni...@gmail.com schrieb: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Roland Franzius Funny discussion anyway. People who hate Mercedes but love Lexus should buy Lexus and stay happy that way. Here (in Denmark) Mercedes is still a very popular car, in particular by Taxi owners. Cars are reliable (not wirhout flaws thouh), service is brilliant (necessary to make up for the flaws) and reselling market is good. These are all important parameters for their business, and this makes the picture more complete talking about total reliability. Another important aspect is the Mercedes spare parts policy. Prices are in general very reasonable in particular compared to Japanese cars. And they are almost always readily available from one day to the next, even for very old models. Japanese cars are usually not guaranteed supported wtih spare parts for more than 10 years. Yes, there has in a period been some serious flaws, which Mercedes was reluctant to admit. That of course points quite a bit downwards, but not enough to make people like me stop loving it. Very true. The parts availability is an important factor that buys me into Mercedes, especially I do most of the work myself. For example, the parts for my 84 190D are easily available from multiple sources. However, there were many instances when I cannot get parts for 15+ years old American or Japanese cars then I had to go to junkyards. >>pheoni...@gmail.com schrieb: >> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > reluctant to admit. That of course points quite a bit downwards, but > not enough to make people like me stop loving it. > Very true. The parts availability is an important factor that buys me > into Mercedes, especially I do most of the work myself. For example, > the parts for my 84 190D are easily available from multiple sources. > However, there were many instances when I cannot get parts for 15+ years > old American or Japanese cars then I had to go to junkyards. I don't have any issues concerning parts *availability* for my '92 300D, it's the fact that half the time the parts I get (OEM stuff, mind you) is defective. I love my old Merc and when I finally get a good part the car feels like it's worth it to fix it but this is getting to be a PITA that I never experienced with any of my Japanese cars. 14 freakin' injectors to get 5 good ones?!?? >>> pheoni...@gmail.com schrieb: >>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> reluctant to admit. That of course points quite a bit downwards, but >> not enough to make people like me stop loving it. JD schrieb: >> Very true. The parts availability is an important factor that buys me >> into Mercedes, especially I do most of the work myself. For example, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > that I never experienced with any of my Japanese cars. 14 freakin' > injectors to get 5 good ones?!?? Are you shure they are new? There is a hugh worldwide market for used polished MB parts. At ebay.de you get MB parts "new" for about 1/3 of the shop price. No warranty of course, but return possibility. I tried a "new" headlamp washer motor, but it was broken internally. Probably the result of a head on accident. SignatureRoland Franzius > JD schrieb: >>> Very true. The parts availability is an important factor that buys [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > "new" headlamp washer motor, but it was broken internally. Probably the > result of a head on accident. Yes, they were new in most cases and Bosch factory re-manufactured in the case of the half the injectors. My indy mech shares my distrust of junk parts. Where do these junk parts come from? Off eBay? or dealer? Is there any warranty? How was the defective found? After installation? Is it possible the mechanic made mistake? I am not blaming him. I did mistake. However, getting defective parts is rare to me. It did happen but no way close to 35%. >> JD schrieb: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > the case of the half the injectors. My indy mech shares my distrust of > junk parts. On Oct 8, 8:07 pm, "pheoni...@gmail.com" <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 8, 5:07 pm, "erschroedin...@gmail.com" > [quoted text clipped - 181 lines] > (as well as other german cars). > Lexus is famous for RELIABLE!! Did you see all the recalls? And yes, Lexus is famous for being reliable. And boring, drab, unexciting, uninvolving ... in other words, the perfect car for people who think of their car like their refrigerator. On Oct 3, 8:52 pm, "pheoni...@gmail.com" <pheoni...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Is it because you think it's a status symbol and therefore overlook > > its lackluster quality? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I'm very disappointed with german car quality in general! > A lexus LS460 will blow away just about any german luxury car. In what respect? Not power. Not handling. Not braking. Not styling. Not acceleration. > I've seen several comparisons with the LS460 vs the S class. > Several journalists say the Lexus is superior and for about half the > price. And who would those journalists be? > Have you seen the Lexus LS460? It truly is amazing AND RELIABLE!!!! Also rather bland. > Good luck, > > Oskar I don´t know what are you talking about. My 1989 Mercedes W124 is very good quality construction. I am using it today, 20 years after production. Present engines are a lot better than old engines. Anyway, I don´t like the look of new Mercedes, those that look like japanese or korean. My advice: If you don´t like Mercedes, don´t buy it. Buy a japanese, they have very good cars. Don´t worry about us. Be happy. Have a good purchase. > Is it because you think it's a status symbol and therefore overlook > its lackluster quality? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Figaro > Is it because you think it's a status symbol and therefore overlook > its lackluster quality? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Figaro Yes, there are some things about the construction that I don't like. My 97 E, and I understand that this is nearly a feature, developed a shimmy in the lower left ball joint. But so what? It has a solid ride and reasonable economy. Roughly the same as my wife's 97 Camry with more space and comfort. My 87 300D -- I like the ride but the seats are terrible! If only the later seats would fit ... But are they built any worse than anything else? Maybe, but today so many cars are built so well that there is little to complain about. Unless you buy a Hyundai. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2009 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.