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Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / September 2005E320 Air Mass Meter
I have a 1998 Mercedes E320 that generates P0170 and P0173 codes about every third driving cycle. I suspect the air mass meter, but would like to be certain before shelling out almost $300. Is this air mass meter a whetstone bridge as in other air mass meters where the element exposed to the air is a resistor? Does anyone have a schematic diagram of this part? Thanks. Dan >Is this air mass meter a whetstone bridge as in other air mass meters where >the element exposed to the air is a resistor? It is a bridge loop circuit, but no more Hot wire ..replaced with Film Mass system MAF. The codes are fuel trim and can be caused by both vac leak or bad Fuel pressure regulator. Common vac leak on these is purge valve hose . Reg test is to remove vac line at reg. and see if fuel comes out reg vac port.. These are preliminary test before checking MAF [ which is also common with these codes on that model] Thanks for the response. Now if I could only find the fuel pressure regulator. I don't see it in the engine compartment. Is it back with the fuel tank? Thanks again. Dan > >Is this air mass meter a whetstone bridge as in other air mass meters where > >the element exposed to the air is a resistor? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > These are preliminary test before checking MAF [ which is also common with > these codes on that model] On top of the engine, in the injector fuel rail, about the diameter of a 50 cent piece, with a vacuum hose going to it. > Thanks for the response. Now if I could only find the fuel pressure > regulator. I don't see it in the engine compartment. Is it back with the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > with > > these codes on that model] Thanks, Karl. Vacuum line at the fuel pressure regulator is dry as bone. Is the purge valve back near the fuel tank or in the engine compartment? I don't think that it is the air mass meter any more. I took a drive with my computer diagnostic software connected and, as far as I can tell, the air mass meter seems to be performing. Whether it's normal or not, I don't know. I can read its output which is about 2.1 lbs/min at a constant 55 MPH. Opening the throttle and thereby decreasing the manifold pressure it goes up to a peak of about 6 lbs/min. At idle it is at 0.4 lbs/min. It certainly isn't totally defective , but then again the car runs beautifully without any evident problems except for the trouble light which comes on after clearing the codes on about the third driving cycle. Thanks again. Dan > On top of the engine, in the injector fuel rail, about the diameter of a 50 cent piece, with a > vacuum hose going to it. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > with > > > these codes on that model] Dan, I can't speak to your technical question, but I can tell you that my 1997 E320 began bogging when I attempted to accelerate hard and got steadily worse. The shop I use indicated the Air Mass Meter was the problem and, as a favor, told me the device could be bought through distributors and installed myself. I contacted Euromeister in Castro Valley, CA and purchased the Meter for about $170. (instead of the $340. the dealer wanted) and installed it in about 10-minutes. >I have a 1998 Mercedes E320 that generates P0170 and P0173 codes about every >third driving cycle. I suspect the air mass meter, but would like to be [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Thanks for the response, Ken. See my response to Karl where I point out that this car runs very well except for the trouble light coming on. If it is the air mass meter, it is a very marginal condition. I'll certainly check that place it I do determine that I need an air mass meter. Thanks again. Dan > Dan, > I can't speak to your technical question, but I can tell you that my [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > > >Dan I'm watching your progress closely. My 98 e320 w/ 61,000 miles on the clock started the same check engine light routine about 6 months ago. It goes on and off, usually when the fuel take is between 2/3 and 1/3 full. It started this summer, after I purchased a bad tank of gas. A respected independent mechanic put in some additive, reset the codes and all was well for 60 days.... then the light came on again. For starters, I purchased a new gas cap this 24 hours ago. No status change, yet. Do you know what trouble code is being trigged? Prior to this incident involving P0170 and P0173, my E320 was triggering a P0442 code which indicates a slight leak in the evaporative emission system. I took it to my local Mercedes dealer and they wanted to change both the shut off valve and the purge valve at a total cost of about $500. Admittedly, each of these devices could trigger that code. Lucky for me they did not have the parts, so all they did is remove the trouble codes. Subsequently, I reversed the gasket in the fuel tank cap and thereby removed the P0442 code. That's when I purchased the diagnostic software and am now trouble shooting the present condition. Dan > I'm watching your progress closely. My 98 e320 w/ 61,000 miles on the clock > started the same check engine light routine about 6 months ago. It goes on [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > For starters, I purchased a new gas cap this 24 hours ago. No status change, > yet. >Prior to this incident involving P0170 and P0173, my E320 was triggering a >P0442 code which indicates a slight leak in the evaporative emission system. >I took it to my local Mercedes dealer and they wanted to change both the >shut off valve and the purge valv Codes p0170 coupled witha p0442 can indicate a stuck purge valve.. very common on these. A fuel trim code simply means that the ECU can not correct the mixture cuz it is at its limits to do so.. [ meaning you have too much air or fuel for electronic correction] The best tect for these conditions is to look at adaptation specs, but an easy test for the DIYer is to let the engine warm up and then feel the purge valve in ones hand for a pulsing heartbeat feel. The ecu sends a pulsed [ 6 to 10 per/sec] electrical signal to the purge solinoid to let canister emmisions back into the intake They pulse it back in so that the engine does not get a big gulp of air into the intake . [effecting too much at once] The problem with purge valves is they simply get gummed up with gas fumes and they no longer pulse, but rather stick open --causing an internal vac leak to the intake which the ecu fuel trim can not adjust for [ out of trim limit] A trick I use on dirty purge valves is to remove the hoses and squirt some WD 40 in the valve ports and the vac lines and then retry until I get the heatbeat back. Another verifying trick is to simply remove the vac line between the purge and the intake and plug it for a couple of days to see if CE comes back on.If the ecu readapts in the time perioid. you know the valve was sticking. On the other end of the equation is the possibility of the fuel pressure regulator not keeping to spec. This will also bring on same trim codes. Easy test here is a simple F/Pressure test , both with car running and with reg vac hos dissconnected. There is a test port for this on the fuel rail. [ this is actually the first test one should make] If one does not have such, you can also test by taking a reading at the 02 sens [ dissconnected from ecu] with a volt meter and watch for rich [ high volts/rich] everytime you disconnect reg vac hose.] This indicates if reg is working. These trim codes are usually the MAF, but not allways and a few test before part change is the way to go.. Thanks for the really informative response! As I indicated in an earlier posing, I am no longer getting a P0442 code since reversing the fuel cap gasket, but I am still getting the P0170 and P0173 codes. Where is the purge valve located --- engine compartment or by the fuel tank? I want to feel the beat. <grin> Would a stuck purge valve trigger a P0443 code? What do you mean by the adaption specs? Is this the same as the data that is saved when the error code is triggered? Sorry for so many questions, but I'm just trying to learn more about this very complicated system. The internet has been great, but not as compete as I would like. Thanks again. Dan > >Prior to this incident involving P0170 and P0173, my E320 was triggering a > >P0442 code which indicates a slight leak in the evaporative emission system. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > These trim codes are usually the MAF, but not allways and a few test before > part change is the way to go.. Purge is on the inner, left fender well. Should say MOT on top. The adaptation specs are live stream data that tells how far [+/-, in percentage]. the ecu has to correct for proper fuel mix. The system can correct for anything from engine wear to fuel diluted crankcase oil [ for those who do not believe in oil changes], but once the adaptation reaches the corrective built-in limitation, [ram] , the CE gets triggered... Once the remedy to the CE fault has been corrected, the ecu will re-adapt over a drive cycle/time frame and once again get within limits specs. However. if one has a scanner , the ecu memory can be reset to instantly bring the adaption base line back to zero Thanks again for the response. The fault code P0170 triggered the engine fault light under the following conditions: 500 RPM Short term trim: Bank 1= -4.7%; Bank 2= -3.9% Long term trim: Bank 1= 34.4%; Bank 2=34.4% Engine load was 20.0% Coolant temp= 183 degrees F intake manifold pressure=13.3 in Hg Sys 1 & 2 were operating in the closed loop I am again beginning to suspect the air mass sensor. As I said in an earlier post, the maximum air mass that I registered on acceleration was about 6 lbs/min. With the intake air temp of about 20 degrees C, that corresponds to about 80 cubic feet/ min of air since air at 20 degrees C is about .0751 lbs/cubic foot. An average for airflow versus HP is 1.5 to 1.6 cubic feet/minute for each HP. That would compute to (80/1.5=) about 54 HP on acceleration. I DON'T THINK SO on an engine that is supposed to deliver about 220HP at 5600RPM. I think that the air mass meter is reading low. The engine was probably no where near 5600RPM when my wife was accelerating, but even 100HP should be at least 150 cubic feet/ min of air. That requires over 11 lbs/min of air and I wasn't getting any reading close to that. Of course, I could have a large leak between the sensor and intake to the engine, but I don't think so. If anyone sees a tremendous hole in my analysis, please tell me. I've been wrong before. <grin> Dan > Purge is on the inner, left fender well. Should say MOT on top. > The adaptation specs are live stream data that tells how far [+/-, in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > However. if one has a scanner , the ecu memory can be reset to instantly bring > the adaption base line back to zero Low [ insuff.] vac at idle is suspect. I think Long fuel trim CE trigger on that engine is max at 32. Vac leaks at idle are harder to correct than large leaks at higher rpm/load. MAF usually is accomp with accelleration stumble Thanks again for the response, AJDalton7. You and others have been very helpful, and I appreciate it. Your statement that a bad MAF sensor usually results in stumble on acceleration is confirmed by Kenneth, Hensley in an earlier posting in this thread relating to his 1997 E320. After reading many, many engineering reports on the Net, I believe that the system was changed in 1998. As I understand it, the computer now stores data from previous operations in order to run the car at least up to the point where the oxygen sensors operate in a closed loop system to provide the primary data to the computer for operation of the fuel jets. Periodically, the system checks what it has been getting from the MAF sensor in order to see if everything checks out, and if not, the check engine light is displayed. Prior to being able to remove the codes with my laptop, I twice disconnected the battery in order to remove the codes. On so doing, I removed all of the previously stored data in the computer, and the car stumbled badly on acceleration at least until it developed new operating data. After that, the car ran beautifully. Recently, I drove the car with the computer logging all data. I pushed it to 4675 RPM and read 10.6 lbs/min from the air mass meter. That converts to about 141 cubic feet/min. of air flow. An average for airflow versus HP is 1.5 to 1.6 cubic feet/min for each HP developed. Dividing the 141 by 1.5, you get a HP of 94. At that kind of near maximum load it should be about twice that. I could have a leak beyond the MAF, but it would have to be able to deliver another 141 cubic feet/min of air. That's not likely. Based on this analysis, I've already ordered the air mass sensor. I'll let all of you know if that solves the problem or if this was just another stupid engineering analysis that comes out with the wrong conclusion. <grin> If there is some hole in my analysis, let me know. Sorry for the long message, but at least it may prevent someone going down the same path if changing the air mass sensor doesn't solve the problem. Dan > Low [ insuff.] vac at idle is suspect. > I think Long fuel trim CE trigger on that engine is max at 32. > Vac leaks at idle are harder to correct than large leaks at higher rpm/load. > MAF usually is accomp with accelleration stumble Because of the difficulty in MAF diagnosis, most techs simply read out the adaptation numbers and install a known good maf, drive the car a few blocks, and then look to see if adaptation starts to come back to normal. The same can be done when suspecting internal vac leaks [ ie EGR, Purge, etc] .. block the lines and then look at adaptation values for a change toward norrmal after road trip... From where did you order the sensor and how much did it cost? Thanks. "Dan Dubosky" <dubosky@earthlink.net> wrote: ".... I've already ordered the air mass sensor. I'll let > all of you know if that solves the problem ..." I ordered the air mass sensor from http://www.mercedes-auto-parts.com It cost $221 including UPS ground shipping. I ordered on Monday and they shipped on Tuesday from a warehouse in NJ. I haven't received it as yet. Dan > From where did you order the sensor and how much did it cost? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the air mass sensor. I'll let > > all of you know if that solves the problem ..." I don't have the diagnostic software, nor, truth be told, the know-how at this point to use it. However, my independent mechanic said the error codes were related to O2 sensors. Thus, he recommended the additive.... I purchased the new gas cap because I suspect the problem was fuel tank pressure. I'll take it to have the codes read and post them here. Good luck.... > Do you know what trouble code is being trigged? >I'll take it to have the codes read and post them here. Auto-Zone will do it for free Unfortunately, there's no Auto Zones in my immediate area. I have a service appointment with my independent, who, based on the previous evaluation, is sure some of the O2 sensors are on the blink. gejj > I don't have the diagnostic software, nor, truth be told, the know-how at > this point to use it. However, my independent mechanic said the error codes [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > Do you know what trouble code is being trigged? I also have a 98 E320 that has p0170 and p0173. Similarly it bogs when you try to quickly accelerate. Does not appear to be a vacuum leak. Check engine has been on for 3 months or so. Sound like the MAF meter? My defective air mass meter did produce trouble codes of P0170 and P0173, but it did NOT cause any stumble or bog down in acceleration. Since my engine appeared to be operating normally, I was able to compute the developed horsepower at high RPMs under load from the measured air flow and compare this to what I thought it should be based on the published horsepower for this engine. That calculation gave me some confidence that the air mass meter was defective. However, one of the gurus on this newsgroup said that a defective air mass meter usually causes a stumble on acceleration. Maybe it depends on how the air mass meter is defective. In my case, the air mass meter was producing an output which was about one half of what it should be in terms of the cubic feet per minute of air flow. Perhaps if the air mass meter is producing zero output or if it is indicating a larger than actual air flow, a stumble on acceleration would result. I just don't know. Dan > I also have a 98 E320 that has p0170 and p0173. Similarly it bogs when you try to quickly accelerate. Does not appear to be a vacuum leak. Check engine has been on for 3 months or so. Sound like the MAF meter? Hi, I have a 2000 E320 4matic that did the same thing. The check engine light came on then, after the gas tank cap was tightened within a couple of hours later it went away. I took it to a MB shop and the machine diagonosed a air mass flow meter. They said I would have to replace the meter and filter. Does that make sense? Also this sounds from you email that this is a do-it yourself job. I have a 2000 is the engine the same? I have a w112. >Dan, >I can't speak to your technical question, but I can tell you that my [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>third driving cycle. I suspect the air mass meter, but would like to be >[quoted text clipped - 9 lines] |
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