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Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / September 2004

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Headlight choices

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Bernard Farquart - 07 Sep 2004 19:05 GMT
I have recently purchased a 1979 300sd,(w116) and
was wondering if anyone had experience with the
European headlight assemblies.

Specifically, I was wondering if I would get the same
beam pattern from the OE lenses (euro) as I would
from a set of "e code" hella 5 3/4 or Bosch or Cibe'.

I will want to upgrade to one or the other,and  I think
the car would look better with the euro headlights, but I
was wondering if anyone had experience with them.

Thanks for any help..

Bernard
Nate Nagel - 07 Sep 2004 23:38 GMT
> I have recently purchased a 1979 300sd,(w116) and
> was wondering if anyone had experience with the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Bernard

I believe the beam pattern should be the same, that is determined by the
definition of "E-code."  Whether that pattern is better or worse than
the drop in replacements available for the sealed beams, I will have to
leave for someone more knowledgeable (paging Daniel Stern...)

nate

Signature

replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Tiger - 08 Sep 2004 00:28 GMT
You can't go wrong with Cibie... I had them... they are great! They last
forever.
aha - 08 Sep 2004 01:47 GMT
Bernard, I have Bosch Euro lights on my 280TE wagon and I love them.
They look good, and seem to illuminate better than the round North
American Bosch lights on my 300DT.  Downside: expensive to replace if
you catch a rock.  And if you're buying on eBay, beware of the
Japanese ones, which have a reversed pattern that lights up the wrong
side of the road.  They don't just pop in, either--you'll have to
change the electrical connections.
Daniel J. Stern - 08 Sep 2004 03:05 GMT
> I have recently purchased a 1979 300sd,(w116) and was wondering if
> anyone had experience with the European headlight assemblies.
> Specifically, I was wondering if I would get the same beam pattern from
> the OE lenses (euro) as I would from a set of "e code" hella 5 3/4 or
> Bosch or Cibe'.

Depends which 5-3/4" "Hella or Bosch or Cibie" E-code headlamps you get.

The best headlamps you can put in a W116, period, are these:

http://www.danielsternlighting.com/products/csr.html

> I will want to upgrade to one or the other,and I think the car would
> look better with the euro headlights

I donno. The W116 Euro (flat glass) headlamps look kinda weird, since the
fog lamps are outboard of the headlamps. Performance of the W116 Euro
units isn't bad -- about equal to a decent H4 200mm x 142mm from Bosch.

Performance of the Hella-Bosch-Cibie 5-3/4" H4 units on low beam is rather
middling, though beam formation is fairly good. This is because of the
small reflector active area combined with the inherent efficiency problem
of an H4 bulb: you only get to use 60 percent of the total reflector area
on low beam! With a large enough reflector/lens and careful optic design
this isn't a problem, but it starts being problematic when you're trying
to wring decent performance out of 60 percent of an already small
reflector (5-3/4" round, 165mm x 100mm rectangular...)

Wanna see some objective comparisons?
Take a look at
http://www.torque.net/~dastern/Photometry/575.html

These are isocandela diagrams for different 5-3/4" round headlamp units.
From top to bottom: Halogen sealed beam, Cibie H4 (best of the major-name
units), Cibie CSR (best lamp you can put on a W116).

If you're not familiar with isocandela diagrams, these will look like
random squiggles and lines. Think of it as a topographic or "contour" map
of the correctly-aimed beam pattern. Each differently-colored line
represents the threshold of a particular intensity level, with the color
legend located to the right of the isocandela diagram. The diagram is
plotted on a chart calibrated in degrees. Straight ahead is represented by
(0,0), that is, zero degrees up-down and zero degrees left-right.

To get a mental approximation of the units and amounts under discussion
here:

Parking lamp: About 60 to 100 candela
Front turn signal: About 500 candela
Glaring high-beam daytime running lamps (e.g. Saturn): 8000 candela

The parameters to pay attention to are the luminous flux (total amount of
light within the beam), the maximum intensity and its location within the
beam relative to the axial point (H,V) -- the less downward/rightward
offset, the longer the seeing distance -- stray light outside the beam
pattern and effective beam width (contained within the dark-turquoise 500
candela contour)

I'll discuss the flat-lens Euro units in my response to Nate Nagel further
down in this thread.

DS
Bernard Farquart - 08 Sep 2004 05:22 GMT
> The best headlamps you can put in a W116, period, are these:
>
> http://www.danielsternlighting.com/products/csr.html

those things look very nice..

>> I will want to upgrade to one or the other,and I think the car would
>> look better with the euro headlights
>
> I donno. The W116 Euro (flat glass) headlamps look kinda weird, since the
> fog lamps are outboard of the headlamps. Performance of the W116 Euro
> units isn't bad -- about equal to a decent H4 200mm x 142mm from Bosch.

So, I would understand you to say,

#1 cibe' csr (best)
#2 oe e code light assy,
#3 5-3/4 standard e code hella-bosch-cibe'

thank you for your vey informative reply,
You may want to add your link to a sig line,
you have a nice site, there.

Bernard
Daniel J. Stern - 08 Sep 2004 17:17 GMT
> So, I would understand you to say,
>
> #1 cibe' csr (best)
> #2 oe e code light assy,
> #3 5-3/4 standard e code hella-bosch-cibe'

Yep. That is, as always, assuming that all headlamps are new (used lamps
are a big gamble; one man's "perfect" is usually my "garbage!") and for
the correct side of the road (Yes, there are people who don't know or care
and bring in wrong-side-of-road E-code lamps intended for use in the
UK/Australia/Japan).
Ulf - 08 Sep 2004 22:01 GMT
>>So, I would understand you to say,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> and bring in wrong-side-of-road E-code lamps intended for use in the
> UK/Australia/Japan).

While on the subject of headlights, are the 100/80w and "60/55w +60%" H4
bulbs more sensitive to shocks and vibrations than normal 60/55w H4
bulbs? And what about lifetime? The reason I'm asking is that I'd like
more light on my 650cc off road motorcycle now that the dark part of the
year is around the corner, not to mention the moose hunting season...

Ulf
Tiger - 08 Sep 2004 22:36 GMT
Why not get HID for your motorcycle? Hehehe
Daniel J. Stern - 09 Sep 2004 05:03 GMT
> Why not get HID for your motorcycle? Hehehe

Uh-huhuhuhuh-huhuhuhuh....cool, Beavis.

*eyeroll*
Tiger - 09 Sep 2004 15:05 GMT
I know... some motorcycle headlight units are not capable enough to
dissipate the heat of the HID...

However, if you got a good headlight unit, you can't go wrong with HID
setup... no filament to break. The setup is used by those dune buggy or off
road ralley vehicles who have to race into nightime on unknown terrirory.
Ulf - 09 Sep 2004 17:14 GMT
> I know... some motorcycle headlight units are not capable enough to
> dissipate the heat of the HID...

Are you sure? I thought HIDs consumed less energy, and thus produced
less heat, than regular bulbs.

> However, if you got a good headlight unit, you can't go wrong with HID
> setup... no filament to break. The setup is used by those dune buggy or off
> road ralley vehicles who have to race into nightime on unknown terrirory.

Sure, but HID replacements are only available for single filament bulbs
that I know of. H4 has dual filaments.

I'd really like to know what this is though. Unfortunately I don't
understand Japanese, but they mention H4, 160w, and 12V DC...

http://cibie.com/Page/Motorcycle/Vtune.htm

And what are these, LED DRLs?

http://cibie.com/Page/LedLamp/index.htm

Ulf
Tiger - 09 Sep 2004 20:38 GMT
You can buy hi/lo HID setup... instead of losing your high beam... now you
can maintain it. First is most expensive... bi-xenon capability... which use
one HID bulb and have a mechanical device that shift the light output to hi
or low beam.

The other method is high beam is maintained with halogen bulb whereas the
low beam is HID. The unit is integrated... I saw it on eBay... made by
McCullach... maker of that chainsaw... I think I mispelled it.

In any case, I would not install HID in unit with plastic lens or
reflector... It does consume less power... but as far as heat is
concerned... I can't remember...
Arif Khokar - 09 Sep 2004 23:27 GMT
> In any case, I would not install HID in unit with plastic lens or
> reflector...

A proper HID unit will come with its own assembly.  You should not
"retrofit" a HID capsule in an assembly designed for a halogen bulb.
Tiger - 10 Sep 2004 03:48 GMT
Yesh... I know what proper way is... That is like saying... well Mercedes
installed Michelin MXV4 Energy tires on the car... so when you need a new
tire, you are not allowed to change it to anything else... only Michelin
MXV4 Energy... not Pilot... because that's the way Mercedes designed their
car for... rubbish.
Arif Khokar - 10 Sep 2004 04:00 GMT
> Yesh... I know what proper way is...

From what you wrote below, it appears that you don't.

> That is like saying... well Mercedes
> installed Michelin MXV4 Energy tires on the car... so when you need a new
> tire, you are not allowed to change it to anything else... only Michelin
> MXV4 Energy... not Pilot...

No, it's more like trying to mount the wrong size tires.  If my car came
with rims (or wheels) designed for 14 inch wide tires, I don't try to
force 17 inch wide tires on the same set of wheels.  Similarly, if my
car came with headlamp assemblies designed for halogen bulbs, I don't
try to force HID capsules inside them.
Ulf - 10 Sep 2004 14:27 GMT
> No, it's more like trying to mount the wrong size tires.  If my car came
> with rims (or wheels) designed for 14 inch wide tires, I don't try to
> force 17 inch wide tires on the same set of wheels.  Similarly, if my
> car came with headlamp assemblies designed for halogen bulbs, I don't
> try to force HID capsules inside them.

Where are you going to find 17" *wide* tires? That's 432mm which isn't
exactly a standard width. Besides, you wouldn't have to force a tire for
a 17" rim on a 14" rim, but of course it wouldn't stay on for very
long... :-)

Ulf

(Yes, I know this is beside the point...)
Tiger - 10 Sep 2004 15:11 GMT
Nope... you see.. the bulb of the HID or the regular Halogen are exact same
size... they fit into the socket with no problem. Yes, their light output is
different.

Like the tires... I put on same size tires... one is all seasoon and one is
high performance summer tires... they have different traction level
(output).
Arif Khokar - 10 Sep 2004 20:46 GMT
> Yes, their light output is
> different.

Which is why you don't put one type of light source on an assembly
designed for another type of light source.

Why not try the following experiment:

Park your vehicle on a level surface such that it's facing the wall and
is 25 feet from it.  Now, open up your hood and "unlock" the headlamp
bulb.  Twist it around a bit and watch the pattern of light on the wall.
 You'll only get the correct pattern when the bulb is locked in place
and is in correct alignment.  This is because the light output pattern
depends on how the bulb filaments are oriented relative to the headlamp
assembly.

HID capsules have no filaments and cannot be aligned properly in order
to produce the correct beam pattern in an assembly designed for halogen
bulbs.  That's why you need headlamp assemblies designed for HID capsule
light output if you intend to use HIDs on your vehicle.  Similarly, a
person with HID headlamps cannot use halogen bulbs in a headlamp
assembly designed for HID capsules.
Tiger - 10 Sep 2004 20:55 GMT
You are assuming a virgin HID bulb... bulb that is unshielded.  I know what
you mean...  if you buy the right kit that is designed PROPERLY, then you
don't have a problem.

The headlight units that use one bulb for high and low has a problem for
HID... in order to make that work only one direction of the light output is
controlled for low beam.

Many HID manufacture did know that... they are not just stupid businessmen
or women... they have engineers too you know... to combat that problem they
put metal shielding on the HID bulb so you have control of the bulb output
and aiming.
Arif Khokar - 10 Sep 2004 21:16 GMT
> You are assuming a virgin HID bulb... bulb that is unshielded.

Halogen bulbs in reflector headlamp assemblies have shields on them as
well.  That doesn't mean that a shielded HID capsule should be used in
its place.  The reason behind that is detailed in my previous post.
Tiger - 10 Sep 2004 22:02 GMT
Look Arif, I know what you are trying to say... yes, there are some kit that
is badly designed but not all of them are.

I personally have done the conversion and I have verified the output effect.
I did it on a low beam projector beam though... and the light output was
very well controlled.

There are technicalities involved... yes, but it doesn't mean the rest of
the world have no idea what they are doing with HID.
Arif Khokar - 11 Sep 2004 02:34 GMT
> Look Arif, I know what you are trying to say... yes, there are some kit that
> is badly designed but not all of them are.

I'm not saying that all of them are.  If a kit includes assemblies with
the HID capsules, then theoretically it should work fine.  If the kit
involves modifying your existing headlamp assemblies (that were
orignally designed for halogen bulb light output) so that HID capsules
can be inserted in their place, then that's bad design (not to mention
illegal).
Daniel J. Stern - 11 Sep 2004 02:56 GMT
> > Look Arif, I know what you are trying to say... yes, there are some
> > kit that is badly designed but not all of them are.
>
> I'm not saying that all of them are.

I am. The "HID kits" this "Tiger" nitwit keeps insisting are fine are the
"bulb retrofit" type, and *all* of them are bad, on a conceptual level.
The care (or lack thereof) in build and assembly of such kits is
irrelevant.

> If a kit includes assemblies with
> the HID capsules, then theoretically it should work fine.

Sure, but that's not an "HID kit".

> If the kit involves modifying your existing headlamp assemblies (that
> were orignally designed for halogen bulb light output) so that HID
> capsules can be inserted in their place, then that's bad design (not to
> mention illegal).

If the kit involves inserting HID bulbs into an optic designed for
filament bulbs, then it's bad, dangerous, illegal, unsafe, etc. --
regardless of if or whether the bulb or the optic is modified.

DS
Arif Khokar - 11 Sep 2004 03:25 GMT
[Don't forget to check your computer's clock setting]

>>If a kit includes assemblies with
>>the HID capsules, then theoretically it should work fine.

> Sure, but that's not an "HID kit".

What term is used to refer to them?
Daniel J. Stern - 11 Sep 2004 04:04 GMT
> >>If a kit includes assemblies with the HID capsules, then theoretically
> >>it should work fine.

>> Sure, but that's not an "HID kit".

> What term is used to refer to them?

*shrug* Set of HID headlamp assemblies. "HID kit" is a term used
specifically to refer to the bulb-only "retrofits".
Arif Khokar - 11 Sep 2004 04:13 GMT
Pfft...
Daniel J. Stern - 11 Sep 2004 04:15 GMT
> Pfft...

Well, what the hey, as long as my system's clock is fubar, I might as well
have some fun...
Daniel J. Stern - 11 Sep 2004 02:58 GMT
> Look Arif, I know what you are trying to say... yes, there are some kit
> that is badly designed but not all of them are. I personally have done
> the conversion and I have verified the output effect.

OK, let's see your isoscans, then.

You did "verify the output effect" in a photogoniometric tunnel, right?

Or did you just eyeball it and ignorantly go "Ayup yup, that's jest fine,
ahyuck!"

> the light output was very well controlled.

Yeah? What was your Emax, and where was it located? What was your E value
at B50L? H-V? Did you do a scan in the 10U-90U region?

C'mon, Tiger, let's have some factual support for your glib and ignorant
assertions that HID kits are "fine".
Daniel J. Stern - 11 Sep 2004 03:07 GMT
Two further notes, Tiger-

1) Also state your values at 4D,V. This point virtually always fails badly
in HID "retrofits" such as you claim to have done successfully.

2) Although I asked for Emax and other E values, feel free to state Imax
and I values instead, if you're more comfortable with luminous intensity
rather than illuminance. If you do state E values, remember to include
your Dp!

> > Look Arif, I know what you are trying to say... yes, there are some kit
> > that is badly designed but not all of them are. I personally have done
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> C'mon, Tiger, let's have some factual support for your glib and ignorant
> assertions that HID kits are "fine".
Martin Joseph - 11 Sep 2004 03:56 GMT
> Two further notes, Tiger-
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> rather than illuminance. If you do state E values, remember to include
> your Dp!

Sheesh!  I am keeping my factory style bulbs, since I don't want to be
subject to all of this nonsense...

Marty
Tiger - 11 Sep 2004 05:31 GMT
I saw your website and I have read many articles you wrote back then and
now... Some article are old... as I see your HID prcing in your article
stated $900 to $1300 for the kit... no one sell at that price anymore...
more like $300 to $500. You seem to be the independent expert on headlight
who has some fancy equipments in your lab.

It is funny how you offers to sell many E-code headlights (Non-DOT) approved
headlights.... Beside the foglight offering, those headlight units you sell
are not used in modern vehicles... since 1986? You even mentionsd SAE
certifications in USA... that doesn't mean anything to DOT or state
inspection. It is also funny how modern headlight units no longer state DOT
on their headlighte either.

So it makes me wonder... how does this guy make a living out of it... I
don't think Phillips, Hella, Bosch or Cibie needs outside consultant on
their products... Maybe some car manufacturer may consult you to verify the
light output but I seriously doubt it because it is all about bean counting
and car style. Maybe DOT does need your service to certify them... I don't
know...

The headlight conversion I did is on a BMW projector unit which uses H1
bulb. This unit has separate low and high beam unit. I did not modify the
housing at all to fit the bulb. The bulb was already designed with H1 base
with the same length of insertion where the regular bulb filatment would be.
I have not attempted to convert a reflector headlight and I do see the major
problem in aiming.

It would be much more constructive if you simply state major problem instead
of being arrogant and bombarding people with technical terms which means
nothing to them. After all no one like arrogant people.

Now... back to the original argument. This guy with an OFF ROAD
motorcycle... he wanted to improve high headlight... visibility in OFF ROAD
nighttime riding in middle of the wood. Do you really think aiming of the
headlight is so critical in this situation? Do you really think these off
road headlights are OPTIMUMLY designed for best light output? Pitch black
condition where obstacles such as a tree branch might knock you off the bike
in middle of nowhere.
Arif Khokar - 11 Sep 2004 06:04 GMT
> It would be much more constructive if you simply state major problem instead
> of being arrogant and bombarding people with technical terms which means
> nothing to them. After all no one like arrogant people.

He has stated the problem with the "conversion" that you have performed
many times in the past.  I attempted to restate the problem in laymen's
terms.  Unfortunately, you refuse to acknowledge the issue.

I'll try my best to put it in terms you can understand:

A headlamp is supposed to produce a beam pattern that's determined by
government regulations.  These regulations determine the maximum or
minimum level "brightness" of light at varying horizontal and vertical
positions relative to the axis of the headlamp.  Halogen bulbs have
filaments that will affect the pattern of light output.  Headlamp
assemblies designed for halogen bulbs take that pattern into account and
produce a beam pattern that has the correct pattern of "brightness" as
determined by government regulations.  When engineers design headlamps,
they use sophisticated and expensive equipment to test beam pattern
compliance with government regulations.  In other words, it is not
possible to just look at the light and tell if it is compliant.

HID capsules do not have filaments and have a different pattern of light
output.  Because of this differing pattern, headlamp assemblies designed
for use with halogen bulbs that have filaments will not work correctly
when used with HID capsules.  If HID capsules are used, these assemblies
will produce a beam pattern that is not in line with government
regulations.  In other words, certain points where there must be a
minimum amount of "brightness" will not have enough light and certain
other points where only a certain amount of light is allowed will get
too much light.

When this happens, the driver ends up not being able to see things he
should while driving, and oncoming traffic ends up blinded by the
noncompliant beam pattern.

This is the reason you are not supposed to put HID capsules in headlamp
assemblies that are designed for halogen (filament) bulbs.

(My apologies if any part of this "explanation" is factually incorrect).
Daniel J. Stern - 11 Sep 2004 16:00 GMT
> > It would be much more constructive if you simply state major problem instead
> > of being arrogant and bombarding people with technical terms which means
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> many times in the past.  I attempted to restate the problem in laymen's
> terms.

Hell, I've lost count of the number of times I've put it in layman's terms
for him over the past few days. It's not that he *can't* understand, it's
that he's clinging to his ignorant opinion and refuses to let facts
confuse him. I figured maybe I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and
take him at his word that he had evaluated the output of his "retrofitted"
headlamps, and so asked for the results of his evaluation. He bleated that
I was arrogantly throwing around technical terms that don't mean anything.
The fact that these terms (which, really, anyone can look up with a
quickie Google search) "don't mean anything" to Tiger tells us everything
we need to know (and confirms everything we already knew) about his
"evaluation".

> (My apologies if any part of this "explanation" is factually incorrect).

Nope, everything was exactly right. I doubt if Tiger will listen.
fbloogyudsr - 12 Sep 2004 07:21 GMT
> Tiger wrote:
>> It would be much more constructive if you simply state major problem
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> produce a beam pattern that has the correct pattern of "brightness" as
> determined by government regulations.

And, as has been so ably stated many times, it's not just gov't regs
that is the issue here.  It's quite clear to many of us that US regs
that are designed to illuminate un-lighted overhead signs allow too
much "up-light" glare.  The US regs *require* more glare than corresponding
EU regs.  Placing any light source into a US-spec headlight *GUARANTEES*
that the glare will be more, and will in fact be dangerous to oncoming
drivers.  There is no way you can get by that fact, unless, perhaps,
you aim your headlights about 10 feet in front of your car.

For instance, all EU HID headlights must have cleaner and leveling
systems.  No kit other than OEM ones include such features; consequently
your conversions will fail not only the lax US regs, they will de facto
fail the better EU ones.

Floyd
Daniel J. Stern - 12 Sep 2004 15:56 GMT
> And, as has been so ably stated many times, it's not just gov't regs
> that is the issue here.  It's quite clear to many of us that US regs
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> drivers.  There is no way you can get by that fact, unless, perhaps, you
> aim your headlights about 10 feet in front of your car.

True.

> For instance, all EU HID headlights must have cleaner and leveling
> systems.  No kit other than OEM ones include such features; consequently
> your conversions will fail not only the lax US regs, they will de facto
> fail the better EU ones.

True -- but Tiger's HID bulb "retrofits" fail the ECE beam standards even
if cleaning and levelling systems were to be installed.
Arif Khokar - 12 Sep 2004 19:12 GMT
> For instance, all EU HID headlights must have cleaner and leveling
> systems.

I wonder if Audi is the only manufacturer that has both on their US spec
vehicles equipped with HID headlamps.

On the topic of leveling systems, I'm interested in finding out if
there's been any improvement in the last 5 years.  The ones on my
vehicle appear to have about a 10 second delay between a change in slope
and adjustment in the headlamp aim.
Daniel J. Stern - 13 Sep 2004 02:33 GMT
> On the topic of leveling systems, I'm interested in finding out if
> there's been any improvement in the last 5 years.  The ones on my
> vehicle appear to have about a 10 second delay between a change in slope
> and adjustment in the headlamp aim.

Yep, they're now using rapid-response, high-speed stepper motors rather
than geared rotaries. That said, if there is a 10-second delay on your
system with geared rotaries, something's wrong; that's WAY slower than it
should be.
Pete Cowper - 13 Sep 2004 03:20 GMT
>This guy with an OFF ROAD motorcycle..

Don't you just turn the handlebars on a motorcycle to aim the
headlight?!!

Pete Cowper
1987 300E
Tim Delaney - 09 Sep 2004 15:11 GMT
<snipped>

Do you know if Cibié is going to produce a 200mm rectangular CSR lamp
(I've got a 300SD with one old Bosch unit on one side and a sealed
beam on the other—yuck)?

Thanks,

Tim Delaney
Daniel J. Stern - 09 Sep 2004 18:18 GMT
> Do you know if Cibi is going to produce a 200mm rectangular CSR lamp

Yes: They aren't.

DS
Martin Joseph - 11 Sep 2004 23:01 GMT
Hmmm,

I have been following this topic,  just for educaional purposes and I
have a couple of thoughts.

1)  Based on my research,  these HID kits which allow you to retrofit a
High Intensity Discharge bulb into an existing fixture are NOT Approved
for on road use and are junk as stated by Daniel and Arif.

2) Daniel knows a lot about headlights,  but isn't paying close
attention to this group, as if he did he would know that Tiger is the
single most helpful individual here to many of us,  which doesn't mean
he is always right (of course).

3) Most of this discussion is worthless to most of us as it is in some
kind of headlight geek code, so as to make it impossible for laymen to
understand. Although I think the laymens description that Arif gave was
very informative for me.

4)  Calling people names doesn't make you right, it only makes you look
like a jerk.

Marty
Daniel J. Stern - 12 Sep 2004 05:55 GMT
> 2) Daniel knows a lot about headlights, but isn't paying close attention
> to this group, as if he did he would know that Tiger is the single most
> helpful individual here to many of us, which doesn't mean he is always
> right (of course).

OK, maybe he's an expert on every aspect of Mercedes cars *except* the
lighting. He can take the rest of the car; I'll take the lighting.

> 3) Most of this discussion is worthless to most of us as it is in some
> kind of headlight geek code, so as to make it impossible for laymen to
> understand. Although I think the laymens description that Arif gave was
> very informative for me.

What part of the below is in "headlight geek code"?

Halogen headlamps and HID headlamps require very different optics to
produce a safe and effective -- not to mention legal -- beam pattern. How
come? Because of the very different characteristics of the two kinds of
light source.

A halogen bulb has a cylindrical light source -- the glowing filament. The
space immediately surrounding the cylinder of light is completely dark,
and so the sharpest contrast between bright and dark is along the edges of
the cylinder of light.  The ends of the filament cylinder fade from bright
to dark.

An HID bulb has a crescent-shaped light source -- the arc. It's
crescent-shaped because as it passes through the space between the two
electrodes, its heat causes it to try to rise. The space immediately
surrounding the crescent of light glows in layers...the closer to the
crescent of light, the brighter the glow. The ends of the arc crescent are
the brightest points, and immediately beyond these points is completely
dark, so the sharpest contrast between bright and dark is at the ends of
the crescent of light.

When designing the optics (lens and/or reflector) for a lamp, the
characteristics of the light source are *the* driving factor around which
everything else must be engineered. If you go and change the light source,
you've done the equivalent of putting on somebody else's eyeglasses --
they may fit on your face OK, but you won't see properly.
Martin Joseph - 12 Sep 2004 08:00 GMT
> en designing the optics (lens and/or reflector) for a lamp, the
> characteristics of the light source are *the* driving factor around which
> everything else must be engineered. If you go and change the light source,
> you've done the equivalent of putting on somebody else's eyeglasses --
> they may fit on your face OK, but you won't see properly.

Thanks Daniel!  Thats very clear...

Marty
Daniel J. Stern - 12 Sep 2004 17:58 GMT
> > designing the optics (lens and/or reflector) for a lamp, the
> > characteristics of the light source are *the* driving factor around
> > which everything else must be engineered. If you go and change the
> > light source, you've done the equivalent of putting on somebody else's
> > eyeglasses -- they may fit on your face OK, but you won't see
> > properly.

> Thanks Daniel!  Thats very clear...

You are welcome.

DS
 
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