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Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / September 2004

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The rise and rise of Diesel (part 5)

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Dori A Schmetterling - 13 Sep 2004 23:42 GMT
Read an article in the weekend edition of a German financial paper
(Handelsblatt, in case you ask...) that a US sales target of 3000 E320 CDI
for the year had been reached in about 5 months.

Of course, 3000 cars is insignifiant in the overall context of the US
market, even comparing with Chrysler cars only but, given that this is a
relatively expensive 'specialist' vehicle (in the US because diesel), this
also sounds like some progress in diesel acceptability in the US.

Opinions?

DAS
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T.G. Lambach - 14 Sep 2004 01:21 GMT
Always some pent up demand - M-B hasn't sold diesels here since '99.
These are not being sold in California, some New England states and I
believe New York state. In two years the sulfur limits in the fuel will
be lower and these CDI engines might then be sold in all states.

There's a considerable selling job to be done before diesels are
acceptable in the US.
Juergen . - 14 Sep 2004 01:23 GMT
> Read an article in the weekend edition of a German financial paper
> (Handelsblatt, in case you ask...) that a US sales target of 3000 E320 CDI
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> also sounds like some progress in diesel acceptability in the US.
> Opinions?

Yes:

- The sales target was fixed too low intentionally
 as they were obviously afraid they can not sell
 many of them
- The market for such cars was left by Mercedes years
 ago without real need and the return should have
 been done much earlier
- Mercedes is selling old technology as the emissions
 standard is yesteryear's EURO 3 only -
 the E 280 CDI would have been the model of choice,
 it meets the current EURO 4 standard and is indeed
 the very same 320 engine with the very same displacement
 of 3222 ccm but with reduced power output which is
 177 PS instead of 204 PS (201 hp in the US)
- My personal opinion is we will see the S 400 CDI
 in the US in some time in the future
 I can not understand why that model isn't on the
 US market yet - powerful diesel engines will become
 a not-to-neglect market in the US, too

Juergen
T.G. Lambach - 14 Sep 2004 02:26 GMT
They may be holding the V-8 diesel back until the new S-Class is
introduced in '06 MY.

I'd buy one of those!
127.0.0.1 - 14 Sep 2004 01:49 GMT
>Read an article in the weekend edition of a German financial paper
>(Handelsblatt, in case you ask...) that a US sales target of 3000 E320 CDI
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Opinions?

they are importing 3k cdis to the US, the started t arrive in late
april ( I got one of the first ones). I can't say how well they are
selling but I do know that one dealer who had 25 of them now only has
5. For the most part people in the US are quite ignorant when it comes
to greatness of the new diesels.
Frank Kemper - 20 Sep 2004 11:14 GMT
127.0.0.1 <jd@cs.com> haute in die Tasten:

> For the most part people in the US are quite ignorant when it comes
> to greatness of the new diesels.

When I visited the USA first in 1994, I remember a fuel price of about
one dollar per gallon, which back then was roughly one quarter of german
price. If my memory serves me right, fuel prices in the US have doubled
over the past few years. For somebody like me, who is used to expensive
fuel, US fuel still looks incredibly cheap, while someboody who lives in
the US today has to spend far more of his salary at the petrol station.
25 years ago there was a slight diesel boom, Even 20 years ago I saw lots
of W123 diesel cars in Florida. Mercedes even produced Diesel cars for
the US which were not officially available on the german market, the W123
300D coup? and the W126 300 SDL. These cars offered low fuel consumption
for the price of poor power output and a noisy and rattling engine (Had a
W123 240D automatic on my own, so I know how 72 HP feel in a 1,7 ton
car). In Germany these cars were only popular because Diesel fuel is
substantially cheaper, so taxicab drivers loved them.

Today's diesels are different. They offer the same power and usually far
more torque than gas engines of the same displacement. Smoothness and
sound level have by far improved. In Germany often it is a matter of
calculation, wether you buy a Diesel or not: Fuel is cheaper (roughly
20%), tax and insurance are higher, maintenance schedules are shorter,
resale value is higher. If you look for your money, it is hard to lose
with a Diesel Mercedes. Besides that today many people buy a Diesel for
sheer fun, because they love to have twice the torque of a gas engine, at
30% less fuel consumption. They love the long range (VW currently does TV
advertising on that topic) and they enjoy the feeling of saving money at
every tank stop, (while tax and insurance are withdrawn from your bank
account only once a year). My Citroen with 2.0-Litre gas engine needs a
new fill of 95 or 98 octane gas every 500 kilometres, which usually cost
me some 85 dollars - can you imagine how interestig I found my test ride
on a Toyota Prius, which simply cuts fuel cost by 50%?

For me it is obvious that the big diesel engines in the E- and S-clas are
very desireable for everyone who has to pay for his fuel himself. Just
imagine an S-class with a highway mileage of a Toyota Corolla! I think
that Mercedes is a little bit afraid of low quality diesel fuel and
untrained mechanics, whho could spoil the reputation of their current
diesel engines. But once these issues are solved, I do not see any reason
not to sell these cars successfully everywhere in the world.

Frank  

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Dori A Schmetterling - 20 Sep 2004 12:29 GMT
In all the time I can remember -- that's 30 years plus -- the price of fuel
in the US has never been more than half of western European levels (bearing
mind that these used to vary more across the region than they do now), often
much less.

From what I picked up in newsgroups is that GM sold some really awful diesel
cars in the US many years ago, which spoiled the market.

As regards diesels in Germany and other countries where the diesel price was
lower than the petrol price (not the UK!) (often counterbalanced by higher
car taxation), I think their relative popularity was also helped by the much
greater longevity and reliability of the engines, as well as fuel economy.
Then, as now, they held their value better.  When working in Germany 1980 -
2 I had a company W123 200D (only 60 PS) and it weighed 1.4 t IIRC.

With the increasing complexity of diesel engines and development on the
petrol side I am not sure that diesel motors are still longer-lasting in
general, but all the other factors still apply (except price advantage in
the UK).  Otherwise diesels wouldn't be enjoying such phenominal growth in
the UK.  As I probably said before, the S-Class 320 D is the top-selling
'exec' car in the UK.

DAS
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> 127.0.0.1 <jd@cs.com> haute in die Tasten:
>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> Frank
Juergen . - 26 Sep 2004 00:50 GMT
> of W123 diesel cars in Florida. Mercedes even produced
> Diesel cars for the US which were not officially
> available on the german market, the W123 300D coupé
> and the W126 300 SDL.

As we are in a Mercedes car group I feel free to nutpick,
excluxively built for North America were also:

W123 300D TURBODIESEL
(sedan) 89 kw/121 PS, later 92 kw/125 PS

W116 300SD
82 kw/111 PS, later 89 kw/121 PS  built 05/78-09/80

W126 300SD TURBODIESEL
89 kw/121 PS, later 92 kw/125 PS  built 10/80-08/85

(The above mentioned
W126 300 SDL TURBODIESEL had
110 kw/150 PS and was built 02/85-09/87)

W126 350SD TURBODIESEL
100 kw/136 PS  built 06/90-08/91

W126 350SDL TURBODIESEL
100 kw/136 PS  built 06/90-08/91

W201 190D 2.2
54 kw/73 PS  built 11/83-08/85

W130 300SD from 10/1991-10/1992 exclusively for the
NA market, later also for other markets

Juergen
Juergen . - 26 Sep 2004 00:54 GMT
> W123 240D automatic on my own, so I know how 72 HP feel in a 1,7 ton
> car). In Germany these cars were only popular because Diesel fuel is
> substantially cheaper, so taxicab drivers loved them.

Sorry to nutpick again, but W123 240D w/auto trans
is 1435 kg.

> substantially cheaper, so taxicab drivers loved them.

Plus they are lacking a ignition system which made
them more trouble-free than gasoline cars, not to
speak of gasoline cars with carburettors.

Ok, ok, I keep my mouth shut now!

Juergen
Bob Morrison - 14 Sep 2004 02:40 GMT
> Read an article in the weekend edition of a German financial paper
> (Handelsblatt, in case you ask...) that a US sales target of 3000 E320 CDI
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> DAS
Acceptability, yes, and we will be getting Number 1 diesel next year I
believe.
 
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