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Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / April 2005Diesel Fuel Substitute
Can one use Kerosene or JET-A in the MBZ om 616 engine? If so, what are the limitations, if any?  SignatureRandall Brink Author randallbrink@adelphia.net 1970 VW Type 1 1973 Mercedes-Benz W115 240D Physically possible but illegal - no road tax on these. Or heating oil but still illegal. Speaking of tax, how about WVO? What are the tax implications here? Zero tax implication... legal to use on WVO or SVO. Yes, I see your point. But I use homebrew diesel and there's no tax on that. I was more concerned about the technical aspects of how the fuel would work in the engine or whether any harm would be done. From time to time, I have to defuel a jet and have a lot of messy jet fuel that I cannot put back into the airplane. SignatureRandall Brink Author randallbrink@adelphia.net 1970 VW Type 1 1973 Mercedes-Benz W115 240D > Physically possible but illegal - no road tax on these. According to my manual, Jet A is an acceptable alternative in an emergency, and is also an acceptable thinner for cold temperatures. So are kerosene and unleaded gasoline. Interestingly enough, neither #2 nor #1 heating oils are acceptable! > Yes, I see your point. But I use homebrew diesel and there's no tax on that. > I was more concerned about the technical aspects of how the fuel would work > in the engine or whether any harm would be done. > > From time to time, I have to defuel a jet and have a lot of messy jet fuel > that I cannot put back into the airplane. Jet-A is not a very refined fuel, and has many of the properties of diesel, but of course that's no sure indication, chemically, or in the manner in which the fuel burns. SignatureRandall Brink Author randallbrink@adelphia.net 1970 VW Type 1 1975 Mercedes-Benz W115 240D > According to my manual, Jet A is an acceptable alternative in an > emergency, and is also an acceptable thinner for cold temperatures. So are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> From time to time, I have to defuel a jet and have a lot of messy jet >> fuel that I cannot put back into the airplane. Gasoline (1 litre in 50 litres of diesel oil) was the alleged reason for the internal destruction of the fuel pump in my 320 cdi. The gasoline allegedly destroys the coating of the moving parts in these engines after which complete replacement of the fuel system including tank and injectors is necessary. I now would not dare put anything, not even a jet cleaner, in my diesel fuel. This is word according to Mercedes Benz UK. > According to my manual, Jet A is an acceptable alternative in an > emergency, and is also an acceptable thinner for cold temperatures. So [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > From time to time, I have to defuel a jet and have a lot of messy jet fuel > > that I cannot put back into the airplane. My Story. My wife filled her '81 300D with regular gasoline. Claimed the fuel nozzle was green like those at most gas stations. However, this station did not sell diesel. She drove more than 150 miles before the car began acting really funny and then just stopped. I took my truck with car hauler about 50 miles and it started right off! However, it didn't have much power, just enough to get it on the trailer. When I got it home I pulled off the secondary fuel filter to see if there was anything wrong and that's when I knew she'd bought the wrong fuel. Drained the tank and fuel system, put in fresh #2 diesel, primed the system and it ran perfectly. Been more than a year and about 14K miles since and it still doesn't seem any worse for the wear. Wouldn't recommend doing the same but apparently we got away with it this one time. Maybe it just cleaned the injectors real good. > My Story. My wife filled her '81 300D with regular gasoline. Claimed the > fuel nozzle was green like those at most gas stations. However, this station [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > wear. Wouldn't recommend doing the same but apparently we got away with it > this one time. Maybe it just cleaned the injectors real good. Classic!!! cp > Can one use Kerosene or JET-A in the MBZ om 616 engine? If so, what are the limitations, if any? Canola oil? With price of diesel here in Canada it's going to be cheaper to drive on that. Just look up biodiesel, then go to restaurants and ask them if they would be interested in a free used cooking oil recycling service. I went up to the owner of a local Popeye's today and he immediately said yes, maybe I should check how much he pays for having that old oil removed, maybe I'll charge him less and make some money while I'm driving for free :-) cp >>Can one use Kerosene or JET-A in the MBZ om 616 engine? If so, what are the limitations, if any? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > cp Free?... Well... Maybe free after you spend a precious day off driving around town collecting filthy, greasy oil from back alleys. And then filter all the nasty, rancid french fries and chicken necks out of grease once you figure out a way to warm it up enough to flow on a fine Canadian March day. And then spend a few more days in your secret laboratory (which you spent hundreds of dollars and hours assembling) treating the grease with DANGEROUS acids, alcohols, bases and indicators (all of which cost money), while hoping all the while that your effort doesn't end up making useless "Jello-diesel" instead of biodiesel, because the capricious Biodiesel gods have decided to punish you randomly for your unintentional indiligence or negligence. All this for "free"? Just to end up saving 10 or 15 bucks on a tank of diesel? I burn a tank a week in my 300SD and that is a LOT. I spend $50 a week, or about $2500 a year on fuel. Making the same amount of biodiesel would cost me much more than $500 just in chemicals, fuel, and utilities. And at LEAST 8 hours a week away from my family or work fooling with the nasty grease and its various residues. This means that I would, in effect, be paying myself MUCH less than $2000/400 = $5.00 an hour to make biodiesel. I would be better off financially COOKING at Popeye's for minimum wage eight hours a week instead of picking up the grease there! Honestly, I think the most efficient way to support biodiesel and to help the movement is to invest money in biodiesel companies instead of starting a homebrew operation. Unless you just want a hobby, that is. I am the first to admit that it makes a cool and useful (but hardly profitable) hobby... Your points are very valid, and your post hilarious! If you think about it that way, it makes no sense to "brew". Better tgo put the effort into beer brewing perhaps? I totally agree with your statement about supporting the biodiesel industry, and would add one additional point: Buy biodiesel. Find a source--It took some doing for me to find one in my locality but I did find one source, and use it whenever possible. SignatureRandall Brink Author randallbrink@adelphia.net 1970 VW Type 1 1975 Mercedes-Benz W115 240D >>>Can one use Kerosene or JET-A in the MBZ om 616 engine? If so, what are >>>the limitations, if any? [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > Unless you just want a hobby, that is. I am the first to admit that it > makes a cool and useful (but hardly profitable) hobby... I agree, but that's not how I go about it. The Popeye source is about 100L per week, MORE than enough for me, and it doesn't have to be messy at all. Just switch containers with them and that's it. ? Chemicals? What for? Just filter it good and add kleen-flo. Some guy actually wants to buy some from me, we'll see :-) cp > Free?... > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Unless you just want a hobby, that is. I am the first to admit that it makes a cool and useful (but hardly profitable) hobby... You are using the oil straight, without treatment of any kind? SignatureRandall Brink Author randallbrink@adelphia.net 1970 VW Type 1 1975 Mercedes-Benz W115 240D >I agree, but that's not how I go about it. The Popeye source is about 100L >per week, MORE than enough for me, and it doesn't have to be messy at all. [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >> Unless you just want a hobby, that is. I am the first to admit that it >> makes a cool and useful (but hardly profitable) hobby... > You are using the oil straight, without treatment of any kind? NO treatment, just good filtration, looking into setting up an efficient system, like Paul Valois said, it can get messy, IF you do it wrong. I personally am just starting on USED oil, till now it's been NEW cooking oil, which costs as much as diesel. Taking cues from another guy who has been running his VW TDI for years on straight used cooking oil, it has to be filtered well of course, though from the oil I picked up yesterday it looks like new anyways. Of course, a micron filter will see much more :-) Of course, there has to be a regular source, NOT a problem here at least, like I said, on my walk to work, I setup in 2 minutes a supply of 100L per week, I will supply them with 40L-50L containers (which they will pay with a non-refundable deposit, beats paying to have your old oil removed) with a primary filter, don't want to deal with no mess. Will post how everything goes, it doesn't look like there's many people on the group who do this, I'll do the experimenting and let people know :-) cp hope irt don't get cold there the case, minus a few cans! > hope irt don't get cold there no no, we're in Vancouver, I noticed some trees were blooming in January, February was a warm sunny month, though we gots some rain now. Car starts quite fine on the canola... cp You burn STRAIGHT waste oil? With chicken fat in it? In WINTER?... In CANADA?... You are a BRAVE man!.... >>You are using the oil straight, without treatment of any kind? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > cp > With chicken fat in it? Not yet! :-) I know a family that works for the company that handles all the restaurant waste oil in Vancouver, they have a lot of the processed stuff, I might hook myself with the clean oil, or install a kit www.greasecar.com > In WINTER?... We're in Vancouver, BC, NO winter here, in fact this is vancouver in January-February www3.telus.net/cplas/vancouver.jpg > In CANADA?... Yeh, so? It's not Toronto > You are a BRAVE man!.... You gots that right! :) cp Looks like our southern England winters (when we get sunshine, that is). DAS For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...] > www3.telus.net/cplas/vancouver.jpg [...] > Looks like our southern England winters (when we get sunshine, that is). We've finally got some rain in the last two days, the local ski hills have closed early, no snow till today aiaiaiai cp > We're in Vancouver, BC, NO winter here, in fact this is vancouver in January-February > > www3.telus.net/cplas/vancouver.jpg http://www3.telus.net/cplas/vancouver.jpg Looks nice. I thought it would be cold, cloudy and rainy. . They're not walking around in shirtsleeves. DAS For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...] > Looks nice. I thought it would be cold {...] > They're not walking around in shirtsleeves. The people from toronto are.... That's true. I know one or two who here (London) and dress very lightly even though it's not much above freezing... DAS For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- >> They're not walking around in shirtsleeves. > > The people from toronto are.... Nor has the picture changed for several hours. > They're not walking around in shirtsleeves. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Looks nice. I thought it would be cold > {...] > They're not walking around in shirtsleeves. I was :-) though not on that day cp > Looks nice. I thought it would be cold, cloudy and rainy. Yeh, weather was quite nice, some trees started blooming in January. Today all of a sudden it became cold, hopefully that cooking oil in the 300d won't cause any problems... :) here's some more... http://www3.telus.net/cplas/vanpic.htm cp Please do post it. I have read in various places that there were some maintenance and performance problems with straight, unadulterated oil, as opposed to oil washed chemically and treated to condition it for use as a diesel alternative. Good luck and good going! SignatureRandall Brink Author randallbrink@adelphia.net 1970 VW Type 1 1975 Mercedes-Benz W115 240D >> You are using the oil straight, without treatment of any kind? > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > cp I definitely will, it does not look as if anyone on the board has tried it. Even if I damage it, the engine has about 500,000km on it, it is about time it and the fuel system do the funky chicken :) cp > Please do post it. I have read in various places that there were some maintenance and performance problems with straight, > unadulterated oil, as opposed to oil washed chemically and treated to condition it for use as a diesel alternative. > > Good luck and good going! > Please do post it. I have read in various places that there were some > maintenance and performance problems with straight, unadulterated oil, as > opposed to oil washed chemically and treated to condition it for use as a > diesel alternative. > > Good luck and good going! KJC: Of course, your warranty will be voided...if you care. All power to you, especially if free. I mean Rudolph Diesel didn't transesterify his peanut oil on his first running compression ignition engine...but now that we've got direct injection at 20,000PSI I wouldn't burn straight veggie oil in my TDI no matter how old it was. Please help support a true biodiesel economy in order to knock away like a flea the concept of a hydrogen economy proposed by Mr. Bush and his cohorts. Please help biodiesel reach the pumps. This is not a political argument -- it's about how people forget things like the Hindenberg (sp?). It's about an infrastructure already in place ready to accept biodiesel. The promotion of straight veggie oil only confuses the masses unless you take the time to explain the difference between SVO and biodiesel. I'm trying to start up a biodiesel delivery company and I'm already buffaloed by the number of people who think conversion is necessary. Thank you Car and Driver for your Veggie Oil Kit article last year...but not a word from Car and Driver about biodiesel -- even Click and Clack knock the concept of biodiesel. I'm sure your car will run on SVO. It's an experiment, as you said. But for those who are looking to maintain factory warranties and home heating maintenance agreements, and those who are not interested or don't have the time to experiment on their new Jeep Liberty or the school buses that move our children, let's not forget biodiesel. It's part of the solution, THE SOLUTION to fossil fuels, while SVO in a few vehicles is still an experiment at your cost. Just don't forget to enthuse about biodiesel as much as SVO. Humbly. K Are you anywhere in the Seattle/Vancouver (BC, not Vancouver, WA) area? cp > KJC: Of course, your warranty will be voided...if you care. > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > K No, sorry. Quite far away, actually. Maine, to be exact. http://www.mdibiofuel.com Cheers. -KJC > Are you anywhere in the Seattle/Vancouver (BC, not Vancouver, WA) area? > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> >>K oooh that's far :-) cp > No, sorry. Quite far away, actually. Maine, to be exact. > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >>> >>>K Where do you get the info on what filters, what micron size, etc., to filter your oil? Also, do you heat your oil before running it through a filter? Do you get the same french fry smell out the exhaust as I've witnessed? Smells great! Better than the normal diesel odor. You need filters of a micron size sufficient to ensure a chicken drumstick cannot pass from the fuel tank to the injector pump. Also, you need to install a small Bunsen burner under your auxilliary fryer grease tank to heat the oil above the coagulation point. Be sure to light the Bunsen burner prior to attempting start on a cold morning. If you use used fryer oil from seafood restaurants, like Ivars, be sure to mount an anti-cat screen around the trunk lid to ward off nocturnal attacks from predatory felines seeking access to your auxilliary fuel tank. Beware too, that Okra seeds and catfish spines could cause hot spots on your pistons and cause stuck valves, so for those down South, an additional Okra and Catfish Filter should be installed upstream of the canister fuel filter. SignatureRandall Brink Author randallbrink@adelphia.net 1970 VW Type 1 1975 Mercedes-Benz W115 240D > Where do you get the info on what filters, what micron size, etc., to > filter [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Smells > great! Better than the normal diesel odor. > You need filters of a micron size sufficient to ensure a chicken drumstick cannot pass from the fuel tank to the injector pump. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Beware too, that Okra seeds and catfish spines could cause hot spots on your pistons and cause stuck valves, so for those down > South, an additional Okra and Catfish Filter should be installed upstream of the canister fuel filter. I'm worried about hardening of the fuel lines. Do you think its a good idea to get an annual checkup for cholesterol in the fuel pump. Though I'm not too worried about shooting McNuggets through the injectors I must say. cp I think an additive mixture of oatmeal and Lipitor might prevent that from happening. SignatureRandall Brink Author randallbrink@adelphia.net 1970 VW Type 1 1975 Mercedes-Benz W115 240D >> You need filters of a micron size sufficient to ensure a chicken >> drumstick cannot pass from the fuel tank to the injector pump. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > cp >I think an additive mixture of oatmeal and Lipitor might prevent that from happening. Oatmeal? Yes, yes, I will try that, but on my sister's 300d outside, maybe she won't notice... cp Classic. I love it! > Where do you get the info on what filters, what micron size, etc., to filter > your oil? Also, do you heat your oil before running it through a filter? I'm just starting on the dirty stuff, till now it's been pure Canola Power :-) Get ALL the info here http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0970722702/wwwdataunlimi-20?creative=3276 41&camp573&link_code=as1 Also, google biodiesel > Do you get the same french fry smell out the exhaust as I've witnessed? Smells > great! Better than the normal diesel odor. Yeh, the smell is there alright, we went to some friends' yesterday and they were cooking with the same oil I put in my car, same smell :-) Don't know whether that cheap garbage is good for me OR the car :-) What I'm looking at though is getting oil from waste management companies that is used for feed, I have some connections that might hook me up, pennies a gallon, clean, as it's used for animal feed, will let everyone know how my experiment goes, though there really is MANY people doing this cp > Better than the normal diesel odor. For sure, probably healthier too. Maybe I'll advertise fast food joints, it'd be a revolution in fast food advertising, better than scratch-n-sniff :-) cp I'm a fellow Vancouverite, have a source of used veggie oil from a local restaurant and just picked up a Jetta Diesel. Did you do the conversion yourself? Is it a 2-tank system? Do you pay for the processed used veggie- oil? If so, how much? Well, it's definitely a possibility. Making biodiesel at home is not difficult. It is somehwat messy, but manageble. The materials necessary to build a diesel "plant" are simple. And there seems to be a ready supply of used cooking oil. SignatureRandall Brink Author randallbrink@adelphia.net 1970 VW Type 1 1975 Mercedes-Benz W115 240D >> Can one use Kerosene or JET-A in the MBZ om 616 engine? If so, what are >> the limitations, if any? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > cp |
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