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Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / April 2005

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Here is how to stop high fuel prices It will work

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George Parker - 01 Apr 2005 00:01 GMT
 WHERE TO BUY YOUR GAS, - THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO KNOW.

READ ON--
Why didn't George W. think of this?
Gas rationing in the 80's worked even though we grumbled about it.  It
might
even be good for us!
The Saudis are boycotting American goods.  We should return the favor.
An
interesting thought is to boycott their GAS.   Every time you fill up
the
car, you can avoid putting more money into the coffers of Saudi Arabia.
Just
buy from gas companies that don't import their  oil from the Saudis.
Nothing is more frustrating than the feeling that every time I fill-up
the
tank, I am sending my money to people who are trying to kill me, my
family,
and my friends.  I thought it might be interesting for you to know
which oil
companies are the best to buy gas from and which major companies import
Middle Eastern oil:

Shell............................. 205,742,000 barrels
Chevron/Texaco......... 144,332,000 barrels
Exxon /Mobil............... 130,082,000 barrels
Marathon/Speedway... 117,740,000 barrels
Amoco............................62,231,000 barrels
If you do the math at $30/barrel, these imports amount to over $18
BILLION!

Here are some large companies that do not import Middle Eastern oil:
Citgo.......................0 barrels
Sunoco...................0 barrels
Conoco...................0 barrels
Sinclair....................0 barrels
BP/Phillips..............0 barrels
Hess........................0 barrels
ARC0..................0 barrels

All of this information is available from the Department of Energy and
each
is required to state where they get their oil and how much they are
importing.
But to have an impact, we need to reach literally millions of gas
buyers.
It's really simple to do.  Now, don't wimp out at this point... keep
reading
and I'll explain how simple it is to reach millions of people!!
I'm sending this note to about thirty people.
If each of you send it to at least ten more (30 x 10 = 300)... and
those 300
send it to at least ten mo re (300 x 10 = 3,000) ... and so on, by the
time
the message reaches the sixth generation of people, we will have
reached
over THREE MILLION consumers!
If those three million get excited and pass this on to ten friends
each,
then 30 million people will have been contacted!
If it goes one level further, you guessed it ..... THREE HUNDRED
MILLION
PEOPLE!!!
Again, all you have to do is send this to 10 people. How long would all
that
take? If each of us sends an e-mail out to ten more people within one
day,
all 300 MILLION people could conceivably be contacted within the next
eight days!
DFS - 01 Apr 2005 00:41 GMT
So many inaccuracies in this piece of drivel that it is pathetic.

Take a look at www.snopes.com (search "oil companies")  to see them
addressed.

DS
trader4@optonline.net - 01 Apr 2005 06:01 GMT
Yes indeed, another example of simpleton economics which,  if followed,
would have none of the desired effects and insteaed serious side
effects.   Reminds me of Jimmy Carter's idea of the windfall profit tax
on oil.  The idea was because the price of oil had risen sharply, oil
from older wells should be taxed at a special high rate, but not newly
discovered oil.  Didn't take scammers long to figure out how to pump
old oil around from place to place until voila! it became new oil and
not subject to the tax.  Marc Rich, the infamous commodity traders who
fled the US for Switzerland fleeing a criminal indictment was one of
the masters of this deal and made hundreds of millions from it.   And
all of the tax money that was sent to Washington was another economic
distortion that went into great ideas like billions for shale oil
projects that never produced a drop of oil.  Had it been left with the
US oil producers, that money could have been used productively, instead
of going up in smoke.

Bottom line, you're dealing with a worldwide oil market with tight
supplies.  Trying to cut out buying from one area, will just result in
a reshuffling, but it's not going to deprive any country from getting
pretty much the same amount of revenue they do now.
George Parker - 01 Apr 2005 17:36 GMT
I have looked everywhere for your solution to the problem and just
can't seem to find it.  It is so easy to criticize someone else but so
hard to propose a solution. You must be a democrat.  Where is your fix
for the problem?
DFS - 01 Apr 2005 18:28 GMT
>I have looked everywhere for your solution to the problem and just
> can't seem to find it.  It is so easy to criticize someone else but so
> hard to propose a solution. You must be a democrat.  Where is your fix
> for the problem?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not sure exactly what your perceived problem is, but if it's our dependence
on oil from the middle east, I'd propose that a shift to smaller, more fuel
efficient vehicles would go a long way toward solving our problems.  A
workable mass transit system,which  unfortunately,  here in the west is far
past being a reasonable expectation, might have an impact on both our oil
problem and that of traffic congestion.

A foolish boycott of certain brands of gasoline, it has been clearly shown
will have zero impact.

By the way, I'm neither a democrat or republican.  You must be an idiot
...which pretty much belies your party affiliation.

DS
William P. N. Smith - 01 Apr 2005 18:31 GMT
>Where is your fix for the problem?

Well, I dunno, but I'd start with rising fuel prices in the US, to
force us away from giant gas-guzzling Suburban Assault Vehicles and
into more efficient cars.  Never going to happen, cuz Joe SixPack
doesn't want to hear it, but neither is your solution of shifting
consumption from foreign to domestic oil.

Maybe there aren't any easy answers.
cp - 02 Apr 2005 05:54 GMT
> Well, I dunno, but I'd start with rising fuel prices in the US, to
> force us away from giant gas-guzzling Suburban Assault Vehicles and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Maybe there aren't any easy answers.

Yes there are easy answers; base insurance on car engine size. There's no
reason for soccer moms to be driving around in 4-5 liter monsters. My father
as a 2L 4cyl w124 diesel and it hauls 4 6'3" adults fine, may be it's also time for
Americans to discover the fine art of driving stick shift as well.

cp
Dori A Schmetterling - 02 Apr 2005 17:23 GMT
Stick shifts are for the birds.  I applaud the US auto industry for giving
us decent auto.  Would never go back to manual with the sort of driving
conditions I face ( urban, motorway  :-) )

DAS
Former manual-shift fan
(Based in Europe)

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

[...]
> may be it's also time for
> Americans to discover the fine art of driving stick shift as well.
>
> cp
cp - 02 Apr 2005 19:17 GMT
> Stick shifts are for the birds.  I applaud the US auto industry for giving us decent auto.  Would never go back to manual with the
> sort of driving conditions I face ( urban, motorway  :-) )

True, I did spend a couple 30 min stints in first gear, clutch still ok, not much fun...

cp
metrocomm@ca.inter.net - 03 Apr 2005 02:49 GMT
Dori, maybe you should be using public transportation instead.  I used
to live downtown and I simply stopped driving to work unless I had to
work very late, between rush hours or out of town.

I took the subway or walked instead.  Loved it.

Europeans like to spotlight their energy conservation and
anti-pollution efforts.  If I lived in London or in a German town I
would walk and use public transportation ... or buy a Smart Fortwo.
Sitting in traffic in a BMW or Mercedes is a total waste of money.  Why
not save them for the weekend drive to the country instead.
cp - 03 Apr 2005 05:56 GMT
> Dori, maybe you should be using public transportation instead.  I used
> to live downtown and I simply stopped driving to work unless I had to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Sitting in traffic in a BMW or Mercedes is a total waste of money.  Why
> not save them for the weekend drive to the country instead.

I couldn't imagine driving to work every day if I lived in Europe, especially when
the public transportation is so developed......

cp
metrocomm@ca.inter.net - 03 Apr 2005 16:18 GMT
There's nowhere to park anyway.
Dori A Schmetterling - 04 Apr 2005 13:01 GMT
What do assumptions make out of you?  ASSUME...  :-)

That's exactly what I do.  Walk or take public transport.

But I can do that because I am only 1.1 miles from my office.  When I was 19
miles from it I drove.  In time public transport (trains) took about the
same time but were far less convenient.

I do about 5 000 - 6 000 miles per year in my car.  My wifer does far less
in hers.

DAS
Signature

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

> Dori, maybe you should be using public transportation instead.  I used
[...]

> I took the subway or walked instead..

[...]
> If I lived in London or in a German town I
> would walk and use public transportation
[...]
Harri Markkula - 03 Apr 2005 17:40 GMT
> Stick shifts are for the birds.  I applaud the US auto industry for
> giving us decent auto.  Would never go back to manual

You are wrong.

Automatic transmission is for the handicapped and manual is for the
healthy ones having two perfectly working legs and arms.

Reg:    Harri
Dori A Schmetterling - 04 Apr 2005 13:06 GMT
That's your opinion only.  Almost all Merc drivers in the UK agree with me,
as well as a large chunk of BMW drivers etc.

Even if you live in Helsinki you probably don't know what real traffic is.
Besides, modern auto transmissions don't consume a significantly different
amount of fuel.

Unless one does racing-type gear changes I propound that overtaking (on
non-motorways) is safer than with manual.  With proper foot control the
changes are quicker.  On a motorway it makes no difference.

I drive manuals all the time.  Would never buy one voluntarily.

DAS
Signature

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

>> Stick shifts are for the birds.  I applaud the US auto industry for
>> giving us decent auto.  Would never go back to manual
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Reg:    Harri
Ernie Sparks - 03 Apr 2005 02:32 GMT
Kill all the elk, caribou, polar bears, moose, etc., drill where the oil is
and buy prime steaks and lobster tails. Problem solved.
cp - 03 Apr 2005 06:00 GMT
> Kill all the elk, caribou, polar bears, moose, etc., drill where the oil is
> and buy prime steaks and lobster tails. Problem solved.

And the bear testicles we can sell to the Chinese. Supposedly, North America's fuel needs could be solved by growing oil algae,
which can be used in place of diesel. That is if the typical American became sensible, perhaps an economic shock will do it. There's
no way that 6% of the world's population should be using 25% of the world energy resources and causing 25% of the pollution.

cp
marlin - 02 Apr 2005 01:20 GMT
What's the problem? That accepting the basic economic concepts of
comparative and absolute advantage is too effecient?
>I have looked everywhere for your solution to the problem and just
> can't seem to find it.  It is so easy to criticize someone else but so
> hard to propose a solution. You must be a democrat.  Where is your fix
> for the problem?
Dori A Schmetterling - 01 Apr 2005 16:34 GMT
Excellent site.  I have seen other urban-legend-busting websites but they
have been subject-specific.

The OP is just spam or a chain letter, as a call to pass on to several other
people is made at the other end.  This time the prize is not 5 (or 500)
dollars but a feel-good factor.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

> So many inaccuracies in this piece of drivel that it is pathetic.
>
> Take a look at www.snopes.com (search "oil companies")  to see them
> addressed.
>
> DS
R. Feddema - 01 Apr 2005 09:06 GMT
Wish we had you're prices for fuel here in the Netherlands.
Expensive?
In our countrie 1 liter costs 1,32 euro. 1 gallon is 4.2 liter ( if i'm not
mistaken). 1 euro is 1.30 dollar.
So that makes a gallon 7,20 dollar.

Just smile :-)

Ronald

>  WHERE TO BUY YOUR GAS, - THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO KNOW.
>
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
> all 300 MILLION people could conceivably be contacted within the next
> eight days!
cp - 02 Apr 2005 05:50 GMT
> tank, I am sending my money to people who are trying to kill me, my
> family, and my friends.

Buddy, last time I checked the US has killed 20-30 times as many people as Osama since 9/11, capiche?

cp
Martin Joseph - 02 Apr 2005 08:20 GMT
>> tank, I am sending my money to people who are trying to kill me, my
>> family, and my friends.
>
> Buddy, last time I checked the US has killed 20-30 times as many people
> as Osama since 9/11, capiche?
Unfortunately mostly the wrong people too.
metrocomm@ca.inter.net - 03 Apr 2005 02:53 GMT
Yes, both of you are obviously still quite alive.  Shame.
cp - 03 Apr 2005 06:02 GMT
> Yes, both of you are obviously still quite alive.  Shame.

Listen @sshole, this is a civilized newsgroup, if you're going to be a prick I suggest you partake in alt.politics

cp
metrocomm@ca.inter.net - 03 Apr 2005 16:09 GMT
I am pleased that you have called me to task.

Yes, I was being an @sshole.  That was a completely cheap shot that I
took.  But here's why I wrote that.

The shots that you and Martin Joseph took against the US were equally
as cheap.

There has been no attacks on the US continent since Bush took action.
Have you no sense of how many people, many of whom were US servicemen,
have given their lives just so that @ssholes like you can make stupid
comments like you have?

The Iraq front has been brilliant, both tactically and strategically.
Kubez - 03 Apr 2005 16:47 GMT
> The Iraq front has been brilliant, both tactically and strategically.

Explain how 30 civilian deaths for each one 9/11 death is "brilliant":

___________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________
metrocomm@ca.inter.net - 03 Apr 2005 17:31 GMT
> > The Iraq front has been brilliant, both tactically and strategically.
>
> Explain how 30 civilian deaths for each one 9/11 death is "brilliant":

The US lost about 1,000 sailors at Pearl Harbour.  Explain how the loss
of millions of lives in WW II justified the death of a 1,000 sailors.
Kubez - 03 Apr 2005 17:42 GMT
>> > The Iraq front has been brilliant, both tactically and
> strategically.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The US lost about 1,000 sailors at Pearl Harbour.  Explain how the loss
> of millions of lives in WW II justified the death of a 1,000 sailors.

Uh... we attacked the country that ACTUALLY ATTACKED US?
metrocomm@ca.inter.net - 03 Apr 2005 21:14 GMT
You obviously have not researched the nature of Al Quaida at all.

FYI, it belongs to no country and has no borders.  I suggest you
research before you criticize.

Vehemence and tenacity are not substututes for ignorance.
metrocomm@ca.inter.net - 03 Apr 2005 21:20 GMT
This is as far as I will take this argument.

As "cp" pointed out - this is not a political discussion newsgroup.
You are free to reply as you wish.
Kubez - 03 Apr 2005 22:05 GMT
> This is as far as I will take this argument.
>
> As "cp" pointed out - this is not a political discussion newsgroup.
> You are free to reply as you wish.

Well at least dancing on 100,000 graves seems to have fatigued you.

Little solace to them.
Kubez - 03 Apr 2005 22:04 GMT
> You obviously have not researched the nature of Al Quaida at all.

Neither did the CIA and the Bush Administration.

> FYI, it belongs to no country and has no borders.  I suggest you
> research before you criticize.

They had no operations in Iraq, and none of the Iraqi civilians killed had
or have been identified as having any ties to Al Qaida.

> Vehemence and tenacity are not substututes for ignorance.

Then I suggest you dispense with the former, and cure your severe case of
the latter.
cp - 04 Apr 2005 01:54 GMT
>> You obviously have not researched the nature of Al Quaida at all.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Then I suggest you dispense with the former, and cure your severe case of
> the latter.

Couldn't have said it better.

cp
Dori A Schmetterling - 04 Apr 2005 13:09 GMT
Poor understanding of history of you think that Pearl Harbor/WW2 and Iraq
are in any way comparable.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

[...]

> The US lost about 1,000 sailors at Pearl Harbour.  Explain how the loss
> of millions of lives in WW II justified the death of a 1,000 sailors.
metrocomm@ca.inter.net - 04 Apr 2005 18:08 GMT
Dori, I said I wouldn't post any more political responses to this
thread so I will mail you directly.  You'll see why my analogy was
valid.
cp - 03 Apr 2005 22:10 GMT
> Yes, I was being an @sshole.  That was a completely cheap shot that I
> took.  But here's why I wrote that.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> The Iraq front has been brilliant, both tactically and strategically.

You have got to be kidding me.

Cheap shots against the US? Buddy, open up your eyes and smell the roses, spend some thousands of hours of research and then come
back and tell me that I'm taking "cheap shots at the US".  Your demon government will not destroy other peoples but will result in
the destruction of the US economy as well, when that happens, I'm on the street, as Canada will fall right behind.

> There has been no attacks on the US continent since Bush took action.

You FOOL, WHAT does that prove? Attempting to explain geo-politics to you would be like attempting to explain calculus to a
kindergarten.

> Have you no sense of how many people, many of whom were US servicemen,
> have given their lives just so that @ssholes like you can make stupid comments like you have?

WHAT STUPID COMMENTS??!@!? WHAT HAVE YOUR US SERVICEMEN SAVED ME FROM!?!?!??! YOUR US SERVICEMEN HAVE >>>>>>>BUTCHERED<<<<<<<<<< HOW
MANY THOUSANDS SINCE 9/11!?!??!!!!!!!!!!

HOW MANY >>>>>>>>>>MILLIONS<<<<<<<<<< HAVE YOUR REDNECK ILL-TRAINED RETARD JOHN WAYNE SOLDIERS HAVE BUTCHERED SINCE WW2!?!?!?!?!?

I HAD A FRIEND OF A FRIEND FROM TELL ME THAT HE HOPES THAT HE GETS CALLED UP TO IRAQ SO THAT HE CAN SEE SOME ACTION, WANT ME TO TELL
YOU WHAT I TOLD HIM!@?!??!

> The Iraq front has been brilliant, both tactically and strategically.

GET BLOODY INFORMED YOU IGNORANT COWBOY FOOL! ITS PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO HAVE ELECTED BUSH AND WILL BE THE DOWNFALL OF THIS
CONTINENT@!!!

cp
cp - 02 Apr 2005 08:30 GMT
Here's something that explains the gist of the issue:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8411.htm

The USA's Global Resource War

"The Epic Struggle for World Hegemony"

By Nigel H Maund

03/30/05 -

Overview

The war for commodities is central to the scramble for political hegemony and economic survival of the US as the sole world
hyperpower and determinant of the world to come according to its own model, rather than face a world where this cultural, economic
and political hegemony is not only challenged but eclipsed by the growing industrial and geopolitical might of Asia.

As a consumer of 25% of the world's annual oil output, and the world's largest importer of oil, the US is absolutely central to oil
economics. Furthermore, given the geography and structure of the US transportation and logistics system, no country's economy is
more vulnerable than the US to any serious dislocation in supplies or sustained rise in price. Hydrogen or electric powered vehicles
and atomic fusion are years from becoming a commercial and technologically viable alterative to oil, despite the increasing sums
spent on R & D.

Oil is only a part, albeit a big part, of the scramble for resources. Other strategic minerals are also central to this great
economic power game such as: platinum, nickel, copper, cobalt, uranium, vanadium, chromium, manganese, iron, molybdenum, tungsten
and even such rust belt metals as lead and zinc. Several vital elements the US has to import. These are: platinum, nickel, vanadium,
uranium, chromium and iron and manganese. Three are vital for steel making: iron, nickel and manganese. Vanadium can be added as an
also ran to this mix.

China, with a population equal to 4 times that of the US, at 1.2 billion, has a potential demand that will put immense upward
pressure on the prices and demand for all commodities, to feed its unstoppable growth. India, with a population of 1 billion people,
is slowly joining this race for development. SE Asian nations are already well advanced along this path with Singapore (4 million);
Taiwan (22 million) and Korea (47 million) leading the way, followed by Thailand (61 million); Malaysia (20 million) and Vietnam (78
million) with the Philippines (85 million) and Indonesia (220 million) as the economic laggards. However, all these nations come
within China's growing economic gravitational pull and influence, and all have significant Chinese expatriate populations, which
dominate their local economies. Japan is beginning to rethink where it future lies. The post war world has significantly changed,
and, with it old paradigms. The future is most assuredly China and greater Asia. The US has, to a large degree, had its day. The
"War on Terror" is nothing other than a massive, albeit obviously transparent, smokescreen for the real war: "THE WAR FOR RESOURCES
AND THE ECONOMIC SURVIVAL OF THE UNITED STATES AS A GLOBAL POWER".

The hegemony of the United States Dollar as a global reserve currency, in which the world's commodities are traded, is fundamental
to this story. Given the massive indebtedness of the US at every conceivable level, this currency is under huge potential threat,
with massive Asian influence in the form of dollar surpluses held as US T bonds. If the dollar fails, so too will the United States,
with all that this means. Right at the root of the US's survival strategy is control of the world's oil reserves. Without this, the
dollar and the US are assuredly in serious decline. No price, however vast in terms of blood and treasure, is too high in this game
of truly gigantic stakes. Because of its failure to: adapt and reduce the massive over-consumption of and dependence upon resources;
develop its rail and alternative infrastructure to roads; and the lopsided structure of its car and truck driven economy, the US has
quite literally no other option. Sadly, to achieve its objectives, it has lost the moral high ground and mortgaged the real meaning
of Democracy, with unforeseen consequences for the world and its own citizens.

The US and Israel have inspired terrorism by 55 years of their own policies in the Middle East, rather than tackle the root causes
of such dissention, which they have no intention of doing as this will go against their interests. Until Israel and its puppet
states, the US and UK, are brought to book by the world community the causes of world terror will go unaddressed and continue into
the distant future. However, they all know this, and care little for the consequences for ordinary people, as they invoke police
state legislation and practices to tackle a problem entirely of their own creation. Besides, its role as a suitable smokescreen to
enact global war could not be more fortuitous, given their long term objectives of control of the world's oil reserves and Israeli
"control by proxy" of a completely neutered and divided Middle East.

The Great (Oil) Game

Oil, and energy in general, are rapidly taking centre stage in world politics and economics. Indeed, the US administration started
pursuing these objectives in the 1930's under Herbert Hoover's Presidency. Hoover needed no advice in this regard as he was a well
travelled consultant mining engineer. Daniel Yergin's excellent short history of oil, written in 1990, entitled "The Prize" is
recommended reading. Throughout the late 19th and 20th Century's, Central Asia and latterly the Persian (or Arabian) Gulf has been
centre stage to what was colloquially known as "the Great Game", between Britain and the Czar's Russia in the period 1850 to 1900,
then from 1930 to the present day between the US, UK, Russia and China, with India and Pakistan now playing lesser but increasing
roles.

Oil in commercial quantities was first pumped in the US State of Pennsylvania where George Bissell's little consortium, spurred by
Professor Silliman's discovery that rock oil could be fractionated into a wide range of potentially very useful derivatives,
financed the drilling of a 60 ft rock drill hole, managed in the field by "Colonel" Edwin Drake. Rock oil's kerosene fraction
replaced sperm whale oil as a source of clean and bright illumination in lamps in homes throughout America. Demand around the world
skyrocketed and oil mania was initiated. New oil fields were discovered and oversupply became a major problem with wild gyrations in
oil price dependent upon the supply - demand equation and massive speculative activity. Rockefeller's Standard Oil Company (SOHIO
and SOCAL) rapidly, by both highly organized, intelligent and sometimes unscrupulous business practices, brought order and
organisation to what had evolved as an unregulated, shambolic, economic "free for all", with rampant waste and disorder in an
increasingly vital industry. However, the abundance of oil, and the development of the motor car in the US, in particular Henry Ford's
Model T car, put the burgeoning, largely new immigrant, US population on wheels, and made the US both the world's largest producer
and consumer of oil and oil products. As the rise in oil consumption grew exponentially, so did exploration and development. New oil
fields were discovered in Oklahoma, Texas and the Gulf states. However, early production in the US was uncontrolled and primitive,
worsened by the ill conceived and often idiotic claim laws then in force. Over pumping was rife, as competition between wells in
very close proximity resulted in a policy of "beggar thy neighbour" and accelerate your "cone of depletion" fastest to get the most
oil out for yourself. Even worse than this was the flaring off of natural gas caps to oil fields. Natural gas pressure is a vital
feature in ensuring the maximization of oil recovery in any given field. In Canada's Edmonton field, a town lit by natural gas
street lights that were never turned off, the recoveries were as low as 40% of total oil in the field. The remainder is to this day
unexploited.

The wasteful policies and poor technology of a juvenile industry, combined with the rapid development of the US economy as the world's
largest by the mid 1930's, meant that the US's best oil fields were not exploited in the optimum manner to maximize production. The
majority of these fields were over-pumped and ruined. By the end of WW2, during which the US had to open the oil spigot to the
maximum to support the war effort in the US and UK, US oil fields were in steady decline having passed "Hubbert's Peak". The
realization came home to Harry S Truman and Winston Churchill that the new oil "centre of gravity" was the Middle East. Control of
Middle Eastern oil became vital to the global strategies of both nations, in the cold war era, as it was pivotal to the survival of
their economies, political influence and the survival of the "free world".

Relationships with Arab nations in the post WW1 era were by and large good. However, in 1948 the state of Israel was created,
without any effort to establish a similar state for the Palestinian people, who were disenfranchised by the policies of the UK and
US. Since then, US relationships with Arab states have been increasingly determined by the immensely, and increasingly powerful,
Zionist lobby in the US, and the security mania of Israel, to the point at which Arab states today regard the US with extreme
distrust, and as an Israeli puppet state by proxy, which is a statement of truth, whether one likes it or not. The House of Saud is
hopelessly corrupt and politically weak. The Saudi Royal Family is entirely a US puppet government sustained until the oil runs out.
After that, they will be thrown to the wolves and the country will most likely fragment. The vast discrepancy between rich and poor,
combined with a bell shaped population profile, Wahibi Muslim extreme religious conservatism, and high unemployment mean that Saudi
Arabia is becoming increasingly unstable, and potentially politically volatile. Saudi Arabia has played the role of "swing producer"
on the world's oil markets maintaining largely stable prices for nearly 45 years. Any sudden disturbance to this delicate balance
could result in a panic situation in an increasingly nervous market place.

The distribution of the world's oil fields, both in terms of their relative size and geography, is significant. Oil fields are
categorized into, at the top level: supergiant fields such as Saudi Arabia's Gawar and Majid e Sulieman field's or Venezuela's Lake
Maracaibo field. These are fields with reserves of more than 500 billion barrels of oil. All these fields were discovered before
WW2, and have been under accelerating and high sustained production, ever since. Historically, there have been a mere 7 such field's,
6 of which lie in the Middle East: two are in Saudi Arabia; one is shared between Kuwait and Iraq; two are in Iraq at Kirkuk and
Mosul; and one is in Iran. With control of the Saudi oil fields through Saudi ARAMCO (although now Saudi controlled, American
influence is still major) and the House of Saud (Royal Family of + 8,000 members), and now Kuwait, which is a client state of the UK
and US, control of Iraq (US and UK) and forthcoming "regime change" in Iran, the US - UK - Israeli triumvirates objective becomes
patently obvious; namely control of 6 out of 7 of the world's supergiant oil fields. Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez is a major
CIA target for "regime change", the objective being to secure the world's last uncontrolled oil field outside the Middle East. One
could arguably add Alaska's North Slope field to the category of being the 8th supergiant field, this obviously being under US
control.

As a teenager, I remember experts on BBC TV warning of the coming oil crisis in the late 1960's. However, these fears seemed
misplaced as the impending crisis never eventuated. However, it is now apparent that the dire forecasts of some 40 years ago are
finally upon us. The rapid and remarkable growth of China and SE Asia from peasant rural economies to industrial and information
based economies, is at last exerting a massive demand pull on the world's commodities, and shipping fleets. The USA, having failed
to implement any form of energy and resource conservation, is a consumption junkie of "King Kong" proportions. Far from heeding
calls for conservation, the populace are hooked on the latest gas guzzling SUV's rather than fuel economic compacts. However, the
change, when it occurs, will be like a liquid helium shower for the US citizenry. The sad fact is that all the world's major oil
fields are at their peaks of production, or are already over Hubbard's famous peak for each field. Examples documented in the
technical literature, include Saudi Arabia's giant 200 km long Gawar field and Venezuela's Maraciabo field. At the former, formation
water brines are migrating into the reservoir which is a clear signal that productive capacity is in serious decline.

This means that, in a world of burgeoning demand, with China and India demanding ever more to feed their growing economies, and the
US and Europe not cutting back on consumption, the much vaunted supply crisis, predicted all those years ago, has at last arrived.
Furthermore, no supergiant fields have been discovered since Alaska in the 1970's. Moderate sized fields are being brought on stream
at a rate far below depletion of world reserves. The great hope for future supplies lies in Central Asia and the Caucasus, and, dare
one say it, Antarctica. Tar sands and oil shales contain vast petroleum reserves, notably in Venezuela's Orinoco river basin and
Athabasca, Canada, amounting to some 500 times the current global resources of oil, are another major option, however, to be
developed and commercially extracted they need a high sustained oil price of over US$ 100 to 120 per barrel. Such prices would
cripple the global economy.

Oil resource poor Europe plays the role of passive compliance, not wishing to do its own dirty work in the Middle East, and quite
happy for the US and UK to be its stooge, and stay out of the limelight and its negative impact. Instead, Europe is quietly and
rapidly moving to oil and metal resource rich Russia and the former CIS Republics such as Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and
Turkmenistan. The Caspian and Northern Himalayas has moved centre stage in the search for major new oil resources.

Lesser fields, but nonetheless significant, comprising cluster fields in the 100 to 500 billion barrel range are those in the
offshore Niger delta, in unstable and volatile Nigeria; the Congo, offshore Gabon, and offshore Angola. Libya's fields in the Sahara
have largely lain moribund, in terms of modern development, under the control of the famous and politically unstable and capricious
Colonel. However, moderation, and some no doubt hidden agenda, has caused him to woo the international community, and to open up to
foreign investment, into which France, Italy, Germany and the UK have fallen over each other in the scramble.

The Significant Other Factors

A further factor underpinning the US's internal and global policies, has been the increasing awareness of several very dangerous
economic developments for which it only has itself to blame. These largely centre on poor US economic planning over the last 50
years, and the greatest expansion of credit the world has ever seen. Unless the US becomes a dictatorship, which is possible, this
writer expects to see the US suddenly remember one of its greater Presidents: Mr. Andrew Jackson, who acted in the public interest
and abolished the central bank, putting America firmly back on the gold standard. When the denouement of the epic debt bubble of Mr.
Alan Greenspan finally bursts, the US public will have a very rude awakening, and the Federal Reserve Bank will be abolished by a
furious public once and for all. The name Federal Reserve Bank could not be more misleading. It is not Federal. It is not a Reserve
Bank. It was established following a meeting of John Pierpont Morgan, Vanderbilt and Nelson Aldrich on Jekyll Island in 1913 with
the joint connivance of Woodrow Wilson's "advisor" (controller) Colonel House. The bank has a Board of Governors appointed by its
principal shareholders, who are plutocratic merchant bankers, but now includes the Rothschild's, Citibank (Rockefeller is also head
of the Council on Foreign Relations - CFR - whose staff are present and dominate all US administrations; e.g. Henry Kissinger), Bank
of America and Salomon Brothers, etc. This is a giant private bank, which not only issues all money in the US, but underpins
currency used for all international settlements and trading all commodities; i.e., the US dollar. Notably, the Fed also handles all
US Tax receipts - corporate, government and private.

The boom and bust economic cycle is a function of how this institution exercises its policies. Until 1982, the Fed exerted a modicum
of control, keeping money supply and credit issuance within some degree of reason. However, under the Carter and then Reagan
administrations debt took off at a sprint to fund, amongst other things, Reagan's huge increase in the defence budget. Paul Volcker,
then Chairman of the Fed, put the brakes on by raising interest rates in a clear signal to markets that enough was enough. However,
under the kindly and very accommodating Mr. Greenspan, the rate of debt issuance has moved into overdrive, pumping up the stock
market bubble of all time, and the largest technical "head and shoulders" formation ever seen, by an entire order of magnitude. This
let the floodgates open to mergers and acquisitions mania near the bubble top in 1997 to 2000 when corporate piracy and malpractice
were on an unprecedented scale. Valuations of stocks lost all common sense financial reason. ENRON and WORLDCOM - MCI were but the
tip of a huge iceberg of corporate crime which was rapidly covered up by the nervous markets hiding their immense basket of dirty
linen. Heaven forbid the public should find out that corporate crime was systemic in the upper echelons of US society. The most
bizarre market was the NASDAQ where PE's for many stocks such as Amazon.com and Ebay.com were at mathematical infinity, the perfect
example of Greenspan's "irrational exuberance" quote. When the bubble burst in 2000 to 2001, the kindly Greenspan dropped interest
rates like a stone channelling the world's trillions into Real Estate and commodities markets and providing the basis to generate
equity bubble's son, baby bubble which we are now about to see come apart. This was great because the ever accommodative money
lenders concocted new derivatives variants, hedge funds "with whistles, bells and dancing gals", mortgage schemes that would turn
any old style banker white as a ghost. In the world of junk finance, junk food, junk beverages, junk rap music, where junk status
stocks are OK, we now had junk mortgages. Junk, Junk, Junk, Junk and more Junk, in the land where accountability and financial
prudence no longer exists. Clearly, the Government of the US is so corrupt and venal that no one cares a damn any more. Certainly
protecting the rights and assets of one's citizens is an idea that died with the Founding Fathers.

The entire post 2001 stock, bond market and real estate market boom has been funded by an even greater expansion of FIAT credit that
is mind boggling in its audacity. This time Greenspan has really gone to town. Not satisfied with his humungous equity bubble, he's
gone one better to create the bond market (the carry trade gravy train) and real estate bubble of all time. People trading
properties have hit the bonanza gold seam. Whilst real incomes have remained largely static, amidst this vast asset inflation,
everyone who "owns" Mc Mansion ATM machine has the ability to generate cash out of space to keep on spending and piling up more
debt. All this is of course funded by the Fed's vast issuance of T Bonds, largely to Japan and China. This happy little virtuous
circle, where we buy your goods and you buy our junk paper and take profits on the carry trade is just fine and dandy so long as the
spreads offset the massive currency losses in US denominated paper. However, whereas the spreads between the short and long duration
bonds was 250 basis points, it has now narrowed to 50 to 70 basis points. If the happy little symbiotic relationship in the markets
suddenly unwinds, as seems likely, and the Mc Mansion funded US consumer runs out of Mc Mansion funds to keep the tills ringing,
what then?

Just what is going to underpin the United States Dollar when all else fails, a rapid rise in rates is not really palatable given the
horrendous consequences of rates at say 6% to 7 %, or more, needed to support the dollar, so what else is there.......OIL?????. Or,
is the US just going to go broke and declare all debts owed by it as defunct? Except of course the banks will want your properties
or other assets back if you can't repay the loans.

Nigel H Maund. BSc(Hons)Lond., MSc, DIC, MBA, MIMMM, SEG ( Email - nhmgeol@yahoo.com.au )

Copyright ? Nigel H Maund. All rights reserved. You may republish under the following conditions: An active link to the original
publication must be provided. You must not alter, edit or remove any text within the article, including this copyright notice.

(In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior
interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. Information Clearing House has no affiliation
whatsoever with the originator of this article nor is Information Clearing House endorsed or sponsored by the originator.)
trader4@optonline.net - 02 Apr 2005 09:48 GMT
I think Nigel should get his head out of a kangaroos a.s and figure out
where the world would be today without the USA.  Talk about gratitude!
Without the USA, Nigel and his kin would likely have been exterminated
long ago by either the Japanese or the Germans in the 30s or 40s.
cp - 02 Apr 2005 10:03 GMT
>I think Nigel should get his head out of a kangaroos a.s and figure out
> where the world would be today without the USA.  Talk about gratitude!
> Without the USA, Nigel and his kin would likely have been exterminated
> long ago by either the Japanese or the Germans in the 30s or 40s.

That's great. And what does that have to with the facts he presents?

The issue he presents is very serious, if you have read the article, an issue which is old
news to anyone who pays close attention to what is going on in the world, and I'm not
talking about the fecal matter being spewed forth on Fox News. This affects us all, it's
a good idea to stop being defensive and consider the problem. First, I'd get rid of
any 600S and get a 320CDI or 240D, so in the future you can afford to have
personal transportation.

cp
Dori A Schmetterling - 02 Apr 2005 17:27 GMT
Dear, dear.  There aren't many 600Ss in the word.  Would make diddlysquat
difference.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

[...]
> a good idea to stop being defensive and consider the problem. First, I'd
> get rid of
> any 600S and get a 320CDI or 240D, so in the future you can afford to have
> personal transportation.
>
> cp
cp - 02 Apr 2005 19:18 GMT
> Dear, dear.  There aren't many 600Ss in the word.  Would make diddlysquat difference.

I was just trying to make the post relevant to the group :-)

cp
Conrad - 03 Apr 2005 03:12 GMT
> Here's something that explains the gist of the issue:
>
> http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8411.htm

Well, Nigel's a bit of a nut. Sorry, but clouding the issue
with all the silly-a.s Rothschild / Fake Federal Reserve
crap completely misses the bloody target. It is conspiracy
mania that may or may not be true - but... are you ready?
It has NOTHING to do with the issues at hand. Is the issue
that there are evil people in the world who have manipulated
and abused power? Nope. Maybe true, maybe not true - but
it's just not the freakin' issue.

Amazing how MBA's can utterly fail to grasp the gist of the
issue. Regardless of all the political alliances, power plays,
and financial masturbation that surrounds the energy market,
the gist of the issue is this. We have a FINITE supply of
mineral hydrocarbons (oil, natural gas, coal, etc.) That's
it. There is no more. Call that amount X. It doesn't even matter
what lamebrain theory you subscribe to as to the exact amount
of mineral hydrocarbons left in the planet there are - and the
estimates vary considerably. What matters is this - however
much there is, whatever is in the crust of the earth now is
essentially all we have. Period. When it is used up, there
is no more. X - X = 0.

Let me repeat that - When it us used up, there is no more.
Realizing this, it would seem prudent to manage our energy needs
accordingly. X, whatever value you assign to it, represents a
dead-end. A brick wall. Now for the second part of the "gist" of
it all. Normally, when you realize that you are headed for a
brick wall, you slow down. You look for another route. After
all, folks, after you see the dead-end sign on the road, just
how much time do you waste continuing to drive down that road?

Yet we are not only continuing to drive down that dead-end road,
incredibly, we are doing so at an ever-accelerating pace. Frankly,
with that level of forsight, a crash is not only likely, it is
inevitable, and it will not take the form of North Americans
being irritated that we have to pay $2.75 USD per gallon. It will
take the form of economic catastrophe on a very real, intimate
and personal level. We do live in an energy economy.

As uncomfortable as it is, we have to get our foot off the gas
pedal. When the X barrier, the brick wall is reached, we must
not, we absolutely can not afford to hit that brick wall at full
speed. Symptoms of hitting that wall at full speed could well
include the final World War as the global military powers struggle
to manifest the death throes of the geo-hydrocarbon economy.
In a nutshell:
We need your resources. We think we're bigger and badder than
you. We're going to take them. But even that shark-fest can
only last so long - while crippling even further our ability
to meet geo-hydrocarbon needs. Wars are by nature and definition
destructive.

Pitifully, we have no good options at this point. Unless some fairly
dramatic action are taken soon, the struggle for the last few
barrels of oil, the last few tons of coal will become a reality
within many of our lifetimes.

Oddly, we will never run out of geo-hydrocarbons. I know this
sounds like it's in direct opposition to my earlier statements,
but it's not. We will never run out of geo-hydrocardons for
the same reason we never run out of diamonds - the supply will
just become incredibly scarce and valuable.

My concern is that we reach that point in a sane, and well-
managed fashion. And frankly, some of the solutions are not
pleasant to contemplate, or trivial to implement. But neither
is global struggle, poverty and combat an easy pill to swallow.

So what solutions do I have? Here's where we start the real
flame-fest.

1) Mom does NOT need to drive little Bobby to soccer practice
in her ML. I promise, little Bobby will be perfectly happy to
get to soccer practice in a Geo Metro. Re-instate the so-call
"gas-guzzler" tax with a vengeance. If you want to drive a
Hummer, fine - just be sure you have the budget of the military
for which the vehicle was designed in order to pay a HEAVY
penalty for the luxury (no, NOT necessity) of doing so.  

2) Gasoline (and as I write this, the price of gas is in a number
of headlines) is too darn cheap. Built into the price of every
gallon of gasoline needs to be real funding for development of
alternatives to that gasoline.

3) On the flip side, energy companies need to be the recipients
of 1) and 2) in the form of incentives - based purely on a
kilo-watt / renewable energy prodution basis.

4) We are going to have to get comfy with existing technologies
that give us the cold sweats. Yep, nuclear. Three-mile Island and
Chernobyl were our worst nuclear incidents. Yet the fact is, plain
old coal production exacts a horrible toll. I can just about
guarantee you that dying of black-lung disease doesn't feel a whole
lot better than radiation poisoning - nor is it any more or less
dead. The fact that we're just a little more able to detach
ourselves from the fate of a coal miner in some other state
than we are our next-door neighbor does not make the human
toll any less real. And, in the end... we WILL run out of useable
amounts of coal.

5) Personal transportation has got to get a little less personal.
A plain old bus can move 50 people much more efficiently than
50 automobiles. Yet the mass transit systems of many of our major
cities are mere token nods to the concept, not the spirit of mass
transportation. At best, in many markets, they are a grudging
acknowledgement of the the fact that poor, carless people need
to be able to get to work for those of us who can afford to drive.

There's more, but those will do for a start.

Hey, I LIKE the idea of being able to jump into whatever vehicle
I like and go wherever I want, whenever I want. But I also like
the idea of being able to smoke all the good cigars I want, enjoy
as much quality brandy as I can, and date college cheerleaders -
none of which are necessarily smart or healthy ideas. In short,
we gotta grow up a little - and the unfortunate thing is, we can't
count on the political/corporate criminals we now have serving our
short-term addictions to create real solutions until we have
the maturity to realize that a little sacrifice now may go a long
way towards relieving tomorrows withdrawal symptoms.

In short, we need to become PERSONALLY responsible, PERSONALLY
accountable, and PERSONALLY involved in our own future - and in
an age where we want to blame everybody else, go on the Oprah
show and cry about mommy and daddy, and blindly trust that
our good corporate and political leaders will magically bail
us out, that is a hard concept to sell.

Conrad
cp - 03 Apr 2005 06:06 GMT
I agree but do not understand what problem you have with the article. I posted it in reply to another post which had political
overtones.

cp

>> Here's something that explains the gist of the issue:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> and abused power? Nope. Maybe true, maybe not true - but
> it's just not the freakin' issue.
trader4@optonline.net - 03 Apr 2005 14:11 GMT
Oh yeah, and the BS from Nigel was free of political overtones?   What
a moron!
cp - 03 Apr 2005 22:12 GMT
> Oh yeah, and the BS from Nigel was free of political overtones?   What
> a moron!

Buddy, the post I replied had political overtones, SO I REPLIED WITH THE LIKE!!

cp
Conrad - 03 Apr 2005 22:55 GMT
OK, I can "top-post" with the best of them. What problems
do I have with Nigel's article? Frankly, it shows clearly
just how dangerous a little education can be.

1) the color of the article seems predicated on some imagined
U.S. "WAR FOR RESOURCES AND THE ECONOMIC SURVIVAL OF THE UNITED
STATES AS A GLOBAL POWER". Here's the blunt truth. There are
no major corporations that even imagine that there is some fictitious
"US ONLY" economy. Here's a hint - count the number of times the
word "Chrysler" is mentioned in this newsgroup. Isolationism
has not been a viable policy since the forties, and believe
me, the real MBA's working for real US corporations (who the
heck does Nigel work for?) know this. And the real politicians,
who are generously taken care of by the real corporations
know this, too.

2) The "failure" of the U.S. dollar is unlikely in the extreme.
Again, this is strongly tied in with the globalization of our
economy. The very "indebtedness" that the article cites is exactly
why. An isolated U.S. economy is perfectly capable of collapsing
all by itself - witness 1929. Again, REAL MBA's working for REAL
corporations are very aware of this. Our very "indebtedness"
is something that in a small business, one would call an
accounts receivable - and that very negative sounding term is
actually not a bad thing in real-world economics.

3) I utterly despise Nigel's assertions that Israel and the
U.S. are somehow responsible for terrorist actions. The history
of the part of our global culture from which much of the
terrorist actions originate is a history of intrigue, assassination
and terrorism dating from when the U.S. was a collection of
Sioux, Seminole, Cherokee, Arapahoe, etc. nations. Only the
Israelis seem to recognize this fact and respond appropriately.
Bluntly "the causes of world terror" are cultures that vastly
predate not only any current U.S. policies, but even predate
the U.S. I do not defend some of the "Cowboy politics" we have
been guilty of - but to say  "U.S. = deserved terrorism" is just
flat over the top.

4) Nigel has been sucked into the whole "The Fed is fictitious"
bullshit. Oh gee, let's think about this. We (the U.S.) went from a
currency based on a mineral whose supplies were inadequate (gold)
to a paper (or goods and services based) economy, and on the way,
some wealthy farts may or may not have made a grab for a piece of
the pie. SO WHAT? Get over it. Whatever it's origins may have been,
the Fed is undoubtedly very real. Get used to it. This diahrrea
is spewed by some of the sleaziest crotch vermin on the planet,
those affiliated with Global Prosperity and Pinnacle Quest to incite
those who either have no common sense or are just f'king nuts to
part with their hard-earned cash. Guess what. The Fed is real.
The IRS is real. Don't like their origins? Too bad. They're a
fact of life. So is the prison you will go to if you swallow
the utter nonsense utter nonsense propagated by PQI and Global
Prosperity.

5) Who the heck is Nigel H Maund, anyway? He claims in his own
modest words to be a "world-renowned Geologist" and an "Economic
Geologist"... Hey great - He's a geologist! He's an economist!
He's two nuts in one. His claim to fame seems to be mostly spouting
off about the Fed and Alan Greenspan, and stealing some charts
from Clive Maund, who seems to spend a lot of effort stating that
Nigel's works are not his.

6) Finally, the top post was just dumb. It was A) totally
incorrect in it's assumptions, and B) childishly naive and
simplistic in it's solutions. Nigel's pseudo-educated
drivel didn't really shed a lot of light on the real issues,
which are, I'm afraid, a little bit tougher to face. Having
a one-day gas tantrum isn't going to do much to the petro-
economy. Boycotting the right companies (which the top post
has utterly wrong) won't even make much of a dent. Making
deliberate, INFORMED, personally responsible, long-term choices
seems unconfortable, but ultimately holds more promise for
addressing the real issues.

There's more - actually quite a lot more, but that will do for
starters.

Conrad

> I agree but do not understand what problem you have with the article. I posted it in reply to another post which had political
> overtones.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>> and abused power? Nope. Maybe true, maybe not true - but
>> it's just not the freakin' issue.
cp - 04 Apr 2005 02:35 GMT
> 1) the color of the article seems predicated on some imagined
> U.S. "WAR FOR RESOURCES AND THE ECONOMIC SURVIVAL OF THE UNITED
> STATES AS A GLOBAL POWER". Here's the blunt truth.

That IS the blunt truth! The state aim of the people running the US is to keep the US #1 znd prevent the rise of a formidable
adversary such as the USSR was. In the first Iraq war, the US had to ask the USSR whether it was OK to attack iraq, the ruskies
didn't care as their empire was falling apart. The US is surrounding Russia and China (and don't even dare deny that), to keep them
in check. Read what is going on from the horses mouth, I'm sure you've heard of http://www.newamericancentury.org/ the official
neoconservative page. Heck, the NY Times even "leaked" out a partial pentagon document in the early 90's that stated that the
general strategy for the US is to stay on top and prevent the rise of any challengers, such as China. Read the The Great Game by
brzezinski, read chalmers johnson, chomsky, www.antiwar.com and when you have proof that they are wrong then I want hear about it.
No nonsense about 'liberals' please.

here's something by ol' general smedley butler, you've probably read it

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/war_is_a_racket_033103.htm

what kind of a first name is 'smedley'

> no major corporations that even imagine that there is some fictitious

This is geo-politics, markets and resources have to be safeguarded for corporations.

> 2) The "failure" of the U.S. dollar is unlikely in the extreme.
> Again, this is strongly tied in with the globalization of our
> economy.

That's what preventing a quick collapse, because everyone else would feel it too. China and Japan would have as much as the US to
lose if the US economy collapsed, so they thread softly and bank the US.

> why. An isolated U.S. economy is perfectly capable of collapsing
> all by itself - witness 1929. Again, REAL MBA's working for REAL
> corporations are very aware of this. Our very "indebtedness"
> is something that in a small business, one would call an
> accounts receivable - and that very negative sounding term is
> actually not a bad thing in real-world economics.

The US borrows $2 billion every day to support itself, the average american is mired in debt, you call that good economics?

> 3) I utterly despise Nigel's assertions that Israel and the
> U.S. are somehow responsible for terrorist actions.

I don't know if 'responsible' is the right word here, US and Israeli actions definitely attract terrorists. This Iraqi war is giving
birth to thousands of potential terrorists everyday. If US troops destroyed your city and your family you would become a "terrorist"
too.

One thing Americans need to get out of their heads is that theirs is a God chosen righteous nation, only Israel is special in God's
eyes. As you're defending Israel I assume you're a Bible believing Christian; well I have news for you; the entire Old Testament
witnesses to the sins of Israel and their need for the Messiah, the Bible was written by Jews, what makes you think that Israel is
righteous now?

> The history
> of the part of our global culture from which much of the
> terrorist actions originate is a history of intrigue, assassination
> and terrorism dating from when the U.S. was a collection of
> Sioux, Seminole, Cherokee, Arapahoe, etc. nations.

Give me a break! ARE THEY ATTACKING SWEDEN AND SWITZERLAND?!?! GERMANY?? NORWAY1?!?! Get this self-righteousness out of your head!
EVERY NATION HAS COMMITTED SINS, THE GREATER THE NATION THE GREATER THE SIN, WHAT MAKES YOUR NATION ANY DIFFERENT!?!? ANSWER THAT!!
Your military has been killing countries and people for over a hundred years, don't you think that some are about to get angry?
Terrorism is the fight of the weak against the strong. The US has killed many times more people as terrorists have killed in the
last 35 years, that's bound to make some people angry and that's were terrorists come from.

> intrigue, assassination and terrorism

WHO is innocent of "intrigue, assassination and terrorism"?

"That" part of the world is weak, it's the only way they can fight back. You do believe in fighting back, don't you?

>Sure only the Israelis seem to recognize this fact and respond appropriately.

The Israelis invented modern terrorism, it is how Israel was formed, every heard of the King David Hotel? I almost lost some Jewish
friends when I told them that but they realize that it's true, especially one of them who served in the IDF and bragged about
kicking around decapitated Arab heads.

> Bluntly "the causes of world terror" are cultures that vastly
> predate not only any current U.S. policies,

What is "world terror"? Who said all world terror is caused by US policies?

Almost all the terror in europe in the 70s and 80s was cause by europeans. there is a world outside the US, eh?

> the U.S. I do not defend some of the "Cowboy politics" we have

Yes, and it's precisely the cowboy politics that anger people and make them want to hurt americans.

> been guilty of - but to say  "U.S. = deserved terrorism" is just  flat over the top.

Who said "U.S. = deserved terrorism" ? That is a very serious accusation. I didn't say it and neither did that Nigel guy. I would
not post anything that would say anything like that.

> 4) Nigel has been sucked into the whole "The Fed is fictitious"
> bullshit. Oh gee, let's think about this.

Whatever, that's a side issue

> 5) Who the heck is Nigel H Maund, anyway? He claims in his own

I don't know and I don't care, the guy "voiced" my beliefs which come from
thousands of hours of research.

> 6) Finally, the top post was just dumb. It was A) totally

Yeh, and it was pulled straight from the top post at snopes.com

nice chatting with you,
cp
Norris - 04 Apr 2005 08:24 GMT
> > 1) the color of the article seems predicated on some imagined
> > U.S. "WAR FOR RESOURCES AND THE ECONOMIC SURVIVAL OF THE UNITED
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> keep the US #1 znd prevent the rise of a formidable
> adversary such as the USSR was.

Why don't you join your chums in Russia or China then?

> In the first Iraq war, the US had to ask the
> USSR whether it was OK to attack iraq, the ruskies
> didn't care as their empire was falling apart.

Yeah, and the second time around the Ruskies and their Frenchie chums
were too busy taking bribes from Saddam Hussein.  Nice bunch of chums.
Why don't you join them?

> The US is surrounding Russia
> and China (and don't even dare deny that), to keep them
> in check.

You are stupid.  Russia is in pieces already.  China is going to have
its hands full when India overtakes them.  In any case, Japan will
never let China get too full of itself.  If China doesn't watch it
Japan will get the green light to re-arm.  The US doesn't have the
resources to cover China but it doesn't have to.  China does not even
have the support of its own people.

> Read what is going on from the horses mouth, I'm sure you've heard
> of http://www.newamericancentury.org/ the official
> neoconservative page. Heck, the NY Times even "leaked" out a partial pentagon
> document in the early 90's that stated that the
> general strategy for the US is to stay on top and prevent the rise of any
> challengers, such as China.

Why would that be surprising to anyone?

> Read the The Great Game by
> brzezinski, read chalmers johnson, chomsky, www.antiwar.com and when you have
> proof that they are wrong then I want hear about it.
> No nonsense about 'liberals' please.

You read too much trite written by windbags.  I bet you never did a
useful day's work in your life.  You should pull your head out of your
a.s sometime.

> here's something by ol' general smedley butler, you've probably read it
>
> http://www.veteransforpeace.org/war_is_a_racket_033103.htm
>
> what kind of a first name is 'smedley'

Poor Smedley was an idiot and a coward if he ever existed.  He's the
same sort who would give free cocaine to an addict just so we won't
have to contend with drug lords, who by the way would just find some
other poor sod to exploit.

CP, you are as dumb and as much a loser as poor Smedley was.  Some
bastards deserve what's coming to them.  We are all fodder for the
human condition.  The difference is that some of us don't cower in a
corner and spend our time with our heads up our a.ses complaining about
anyone who decides to do something about the bastards.

Oh yeah, and good day to you too, stupid!
cp - 05 Apr 2005 06:14 GMT
hey buddy, perhaps you ought to write something of substance instead of creating a straw man and blowing it down.

>> That IS the blunt truth! The state aim of the people running the US is to
>> keep the US #1 znd prevent the rise of a formidable
>> adversary such as the USSR was.
>
> Why don't you join your chums in Russia or China then?

huh?!!? My views are the same as half of the US, are you going to tell them to go do the same!?

>> In the first Iraq war, the US had to ask the
>> USSR whether it was OK to attack iraq, the ruskies
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> were too busy taking bribes from Saddam Hussein.  Nice bunch of chums.
> Why don't you join them?

Shall I repeat? You have anything of substance instead of hot air?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-528574,00.html

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blsaddamrumsfeld.htm

>> The US is surrounding Russia
>> and China (and don't even dare deny that), to keep them
>> in check.
>
> You are stupid.

I'm 30 minutes away from the American border, BC side, if you want, you can come tell me that to my face. I really am not kidding.
I'm really sick an tired of people hiding behind their screens and writing things they wouldn't dare to say to a person's face.

> Russia is in pieces already.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch, the ruskis can still turn this contintent into glass before we cry uncle.

> China is going to have its hands full when India overtakes them.

China needs stability, something the US is denying them in order to create the pretext for staying in the area. India overtake
China? Maybe in a hundred years? The vast majority of India is mired in a religion that treats 2/3 of the people as subhuman; 300
million 'untouchables' and 300 million people who are not better off, China on the other hand is mostly a secular society permeable
to change, as we've seen in the last 20 years. The other benefit they have over India is that they are not a democracy, that might
be sacrilege to those who deem democracy to be an absolute truth to be imposed on everyone. What's good for us will not necessarily
work well for others. As a government (the richest in the world) that does not have to worry about re-election they can focus on
economic reform. google shanghai and select images, you won't believe your eyes, friends brought videos of coastal china over and
it's amazing, though with 1.2 billion people there will be a lot of poor areas as well of course

> In any case, Japan will never let China get too full of itself.  If China doesn't watch it
> Japan will get the green light to re-arm.

And do what? What do you have against China? China, whatever its many faults, funds your lifestyle, if they diversify their markets
enough this entire continent will be on the dole. How is China "full of itself"? What did Christ say? Pull the plank out of your eye
so that you are better able to see the speck in your brother's eye? Who is going around the world invading and dictating what others
may do? Look in the mirror before pointing the finger at someone else. I'm blaming the state, not the nation, but you're supporting
what your government does. And why would Japan want to attack each other when they are each other's markets?! And WHAT would Japan
do?! Didn't they butcher ENOUGH CHINESE in the 20th century!? China has nukes now, Japan is much easier to destroy than China, and
there's a whole lot more chinamen to replace any that the Japanese take out, the Japanese being concentrated into a small area...

> The US doesn't have the
> resources to cover China but it doesn't have to.  China does not even
> have the support of its own people.

Oh really? And you know this how!? As long as the chinese commies give them prosperity they wil stay in power. A country with 1.2
billion people needs a strong hand, perhaps third world hole India could use a stronger hand. Liberal democracies are for developed
nations.

>> Read what is going on from the horses mouth, I'm sure you've heard
>> of http://www.newamericancentury.org/ the official
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Why would that be surprising to anyone?

Yes, but they're preventing this rise by going into their backyard. Remember the noise in the US when a Chinese company took control
of the panama canal?

Look at these brown shirts:

http://www.conservativeusa.org/panama.htm

The US' presence in asia many times more in the chinese' face, and you are complaining of what?

>> Read the The Great Game by
>> brzezinski, read chalmers johnson, chomsky, www.antiwar.com and when you have
>> proof that they are wrong then I want hear about it.
>> No nonsense about 'liberals' please.
>
> You read too much trite written by windbags.

So how are they wrong? They're not wrong just because you disagree with their views. Are you going to call them 'anti-american' too?

> I bet you never did a useful day's work in your life.

I'm a programmer, 60-70 hours per week. I wish I could work less so that I could be even more informed.

> You should pull your head out of your
> a.s sometime.

Your cause is not helped by being insulting, it's not like I have said something ridiculous.

>> here's something by ol' general smedley butler, you've probably read it
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> have to contend with drug lords, who by the way would just find some
> other poor sod to exploit.

> CP, you are as dumb and as much a loser as poor Smedley was.  Some
> bastards deserve what's coming to them.  We are all fodder for the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Oh yeah, and good day to you too, stupid!

someone needs to teach you some manners, cowboy.

cp
Norris - 05 Apr 2005 16:20 GMT
> hey buddy, perhaps you ought to write something of substance instead of
> creating a straw man and blowing it down.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> I'm really sick an tired of people hiding behind their screens and writing
> things they wouldn't dare to say to a person's face.

So who says I'm American. I'm from Victoria, BC and I may just take you
up on your offer.

> > Russia is in pieces already.
>
> Don't count your chickens before they hatch, the ruskis can still turn this
> contintent into glass before we cry uncle.

You just proved you're a warmonger and an idiot. Thank you stupid.

> > China is going to have its hands full when India overtakes them.
>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> a stronger hand. Liberal democracies are for developed
> nations.

Hey stupid, how much do you know about China? I spent 16 years within
walking distance of China and I know the Chinese and the Chinese
government extremely well. By the way, do you know which country is the
world's largest democracy? As I said, you read a lot of crap.
Unfortunately, you just write what you read. You have never experienced
the bullshit you claim to be so informative about. That's why what you
write isn't even consistent. You claim the US is a warmonger but you
brag about a country that has starved millions of Ukrainians to death,
executed the entire Polish army officer corp and sent thousands to the
Gulags. You are pathetic. You know what you are and I know what you
are. Your reactions show you are not what you pretend to be.

> I'm a programmer, 60-70 hours per week. I wish I could work less so that I
> could be even more informed.

Yup, that's what I said.  You haven't done a day's useful work in your
life. You're a kid.
cp - 06 Apr 2005 04:29 GMT
>> I'm 30 minutes away from the American border, BC side, if you want, you can
>> come tell me that to my face. I really am not kidding.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> So who says I'm American. I'm from Victoria, BC and I may just take you
> up on your offer.

What a surprise, I've been promising to visit a friend at uvic, maybe we should meet. cplassrv__AT__telus__DOT__net

>> Don't count your chickens before they hatch, the ruskis can still turn this
>> contintent into glass before we cry uncle.
>
> You just proved you're a warmonger and an idiot. Thank you stupid.

HOW am I a warmonger by pointing out a fact?? We would BOTH be annihilated!! I suggest you take some logic and reasoning courses at
uvic, I hear they are quite good, infested with people who are a bit too liberal for me though, and too young.....

> Hey stupid, how much do you know about China? I spent 16 years within
> walking distance of China and I know the Chinese and the Chinese
> government extremely well.

How about we meet next time you come over to the mainland, I can meet you at Tsawwassen? Unable to carry on a civilized
conversation? Did I insult you in ANY WAY in the post you replied to? Why bother even replying if you're going to be rude? Have I
claimed that pigs fly, it's snowing in hell, that the second law thermodynamics is false?

So you lived within walking distance of China, and that makes you an expert on the country?? Perhaps you are, what about it? What
are you implying?

I work in Richmond, in a company 80% chinese, I know them well too, unless you're implying the government.

> By the way, do you know which country is the world's largest democracy?

Yes, I DID say that democracy is for developed nations, didn't I? 50 years and India hasn't made the progress China did in 10.

> As I said, you read a lot of crap.

You'll have to demonstrate that. They're not crap just because you don't like what they say. How are the sources I mentioned wrong
in their facts? NOBODY is perfect, that's why MANY sources are needed, before a general understanding of the issue can take place.

> Unfortunately, you just write what you read. You have never experienced
> the bullshit you claim to be so informative about.

I believe I have some understanding of the issues I read about.

>That's why what you write isn't even consistent. You claim the US is a warmonger but you
> brag about a country that has starved millions of Ukrainians to death,
> executed the entire Polish army officer corp and sent thousands to the
> Gulags. You are pathetic. You know what you are and I know what you
> are. Your reactions show you are not what you pretend to be.

Thank you for your concern for my fellow polaks, ruskis and hohols. That the commies were the worst news in history no one can deny.
Actually, I am polish, I've lived under communism (Polish "communism"), my last name is ukrainian and I have extended family in
byelorussia and russia.

You are going to have to demonstrate how I brag about Russia, the USSR I should say. I learned russian while learning what the
commies did to the Christians there. the demon commies sent my grandfather's family to siberia (luckily they didn't get there)
because of an insulting comment my great grandfather made to the politruk (political commissar) who was indoctrinating the locals
with evolution, he asked him basically the same thing wilberforce asked of huxley, "how can you say your mother came from a monkey?"
yeh, that was enough to set the demon off, my family sold everything in a week and headed for sibera when the germans came

>> I'm a programmer, 60-70 hours per week. I wish I could work less so that I
>> could be even more informed.
>>
> Yup, that's what I said.  You haven't done a day's useful work in your life.

You know, I have to agree with you there. The only thing this country exports is softwood and software. I'm thinking of getting some
more useful education at BCIT, so that I will be useful when Bush destroys the US' and our economies

>You're a kid.

Perhaps at heart. Haven't met any 55 year old programmers? Not that I'm 55.

Greetings from across strait,

cp
Dori A Schmetterling - 06 Apr 2005 11:34 GMT
Can't resist an intervention here.

Horse manure.  No government in India murdered the millions of its citizens
that the Chinese governments did.  For all its problems India has been a
better place for its citizens than China.  Now that the dead hand of
'socialism' is being removed from the Indian economy it is moving forward
quite nicely.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

[...]

> Yes, I DID say that democracy is for developed nations, didn't I? 50 years
> and India hasn't made the progress China did in 10.
[...]
cp - 07 Apr 2005 05:43 GMT
> Horse manure.  No government in India murdered the millions of its citizens that the Chinese governments did.

I believe we were referring to economics? Not all arguments are black and white, eh?

cp
Dori A Schmetterling - 07 Apr 2005 12:55 GMT
"Yes, I DID say that democracy is for developed nations, didn't I? "

I responded to this.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

>> Horse manure.  No government in India murdered the millions of its
>> citizens that the Chinese governments did.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> cp
pool man - 08 Apr 2005 02:52 GMT
if you can't pay for the fuel walk.
if the US is so bad to go to CHINA!

case closed
cp - 08 Apr 2005 04:31 GMT
> "Yes, I DID say that democracy is for developed nations, didn't I? "
>
> I responded to this.

Ok, meaning was that if the Indian government spent less time trying to get elected maybe they would get more done.

cp
Norris - 07 Apr 2005 01:48 GMT
> >> I'm 30 minutes away from the American border, BC side, if you want, you can
> >> come tell me that to my face. I really am not kidding.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> claimed that pigs fly, it's snowing in hell, that the second law
> thermodynamics is false?

stupid suggestion. Why should I meet you? I have no interest in you,
only to show people on the Interent around the world the stupid garbage
you write. Why would meeting you help?

> So you lived within walking distance of China, and that makes you an expert
> on the country?? Perhaps you are, what about it? What
> are you implying?
>
> I work in Richmond, in a company 80% chinese, I know them well too, unless
> you're implying the government.

Ask your Chinese buddies if they want to go live in China. If China is
doing so well then why are they in Canada!

> > By the way, do you know which country is the world's largest democracy?
>
> Yes, I DID say that democracy is for developed nations, didn't I? 50 years
> and India hasn't made the progress China did in 10.

ha ha, you show your ignornace.  Indians get to vote, have freedom to
travel, freedom of speech, freedom of religion (you're Polish, right).
Indian government promotes freedom Indians are free to compete in the
world. Chinese government is a joke, just a form of mafia.  Chinese
people live under a phoney communist government that worship money
instead of Karl Marx. Let's see how far chinese mafia gets. Yeah,
you're Polish, right. I wonder waht the Pope would say about your idea
of China's progress. Ever heard of Falun Gong? Like I said. You're
really stupid.

> > As I said, you read a lot of crap.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I believe I have some understanding of the issues I read about.

Oh I know you understand everything real well. You're smart too. too
bad you're not right in the head. You distort everything just so you
get to feel good. You love to twist everything so you feel good.

> >That's why what you write isn't even consistent. You claim the US is a
> >warmonger but you
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> yeh, that was enough to set the demon off, my family sold everything in a
> week and headed for sibera when the germans came

you are starting to unravel. have you notice the inconsistencies in
your life? The Pope and your grandfather would smack you in the head
for your stupidity. Stupid boy!

> >> I'm a programmer, 60-70 hours per week. I wish I could work less so that I
> >> could be even more informed.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Perhaps at heart. Haven't met any 55 year old programmers? Not that I'm 55.

Like I said you're stupid. You're just jealous and hateful of Jews and
Americans so you twist everything else just so you can throw sh.t in
their face. You have no idea why your life is so full of hate. That's
why I said you are a kid. Smart but clueless. You should go see a
shrink. okay I've given enough of free advice.
cp - 07 Apr 2005 05:20 GMT
> stupid suggestion. Why should I meet you? I have no interest in you,
> only to show people on the Interent around the world the stupid garbage
> you write. Why would meeting you help?

Help? Oh I wasn't talking about any help, I would like to see you do some name calling to my face.

> Ask your Chinese buddies if they want to go live in China. If China is
> doing so well then why are they in Canada!

Was I comparing? Are you going to deny that China has made great gains in the last 15 years?

> ha ha, you show your ignornace.  Indians get to vote, have freedom to
> travel, freedom of speech, freedom of religion

I believe we were talking about economics.

>(you're Polish, right).

Why so incredulous? Did I state that 1+1=3? There's a lot of us polaks here. polak, BTW is the polish word for a... polak.

> Indian government promotes freedom Indians are free to compete in the
> world. Chinese government is a joke, just a form of mafia.  Chinese
> people live under a phoney communist government that worship money
> instead of Karl Marx. Let's see how far chinese mafia gets.

Most governments are mafias to a point, but to call the chinewse government a joke, whatever their many faults, is idiotic. To look
at the changes in china in the last 15 years and to call the government a joke is as stupid as you can get. So they're a "phoney"
communist government, would it be better if they were a "real" communist government?

> Yeah, you're Polish, right.

Dd I claim to have come from MArs?!!? WHY WOULD I BOTHER MAKING UP SUCH TRIVIAL BULLSHIT?!

> I wonder waht the Pope would say about your idea
> of China's progress. Ever heard of Falun Gong? Like I said.

Well, I didn't say anything about religious progress, did I? Falun Gong? There's millions of Christians being persecuted, why would
I care about the Falun Gong?

The pope? I'm not catholic.

>You're really stupid.

And so are you! nah nah nah nah NAH! (this reminds me of kindergarten)

I suggest we meet at Tsawwassen. cplassrv__AT__telus__DOT__net

>> > Unfortunately, you just write what you read. You have never experienced
>> > the bullshit you claim to be so informative about.

And you're such an expert. You've yet to demonstrate that I'm wrong, the only thing you have demonstrated is an ability to be
insulting.

> Oh I know you understand everything real well. You're smart too. too
> bad you're not right in the head. You distort everything just so you
> get to feel good. You love to twist everything so you feel good.

attempting to be a shrink? Don't quit your day job.

> you are starting to unravel. have you notice the inconsistencies in
> your life? The Pope and your grandfather would smack you in the head<