Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / May 2005
300D with manual tranny
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Ron Tellus - 07 Apr 2005 21:02 GMT Did Mercedes ever build the 300D with a manual 4 speed or 5 speed?
T.G. Lambach - 08 Apr 2005 03:52 GMT not for the USA market.
Ernie Sparks - 08 Apr 2005 03:58 GMT Know if it is possible to put a 4-speed stick in one?
cp - 08 Apr 2005 04:49 GMT > Know if it is possible to put a 4-speed stick in one? If you're thinking of the 240d 4spd that would be pointless, unless you added another gear. If you like I can bring you a w124 200d or 250d (turbo) or 300d (turbo too) from germany next time I go :-) my mother has a w124 200d 5spd and it's great, I think it gets 34mpg in the city.
cp
Conrad - 14 Apr 2005 01:51 GMT >> Know if it is possible to put a 4-speed stick in one? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > cp Hmm - I'd be interested in seeing the transmission numbers - I suspect that the standard transmission may be the same, and the 240 just has a lower-geared differential. Rumor has it that between the 300D and the 300D turbo that the differential (rear end) is geared higher on the turbo, but the trannies are the same - anyone have any thoughts on this?
Still, this is not a conversion for the fainthearted...
Conrad
Pete - 20 Apr 2005 03:30 GMT I have heard that the 300 turbo can be installed in the 240 but only with the 300 auto transmission - that is, not the 240 auto transmission. Can the 240D manual transmission be applied to the 300 turbo engine? specifically a 1983 240 D std 4 spd transmission ? Why isn't there an overdrive transmission available ?! in the US. std or auto.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Tellus" <RTellus@maxtel.net> Newsgroups: alt.auto.mercedes Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 4:02 PM Subject: 300D with manual tranny
> Did Mercedes ever build the 300D with a manual 4 speed or 5 speed?
>>> Know if it is possible to put a 4-speed stick in one? >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Conrad cp - 20 Apr 2005 04:46 GMT >I have heard that the 300 turbo can be installed in the 240 but only with > the 300 auto transmission - that is, not the 240 auto transmission. If you install a 300 turbo with a 300 auto transmission, in a 240... then you will get a 300. 240 and 300 are the same car, except for different engine and transmission.
cp
Conrad - 20 Apr 2005 13:51 GMT > I have heard that the 300 turbo can be installed in the 240 but only with > the 300 auto transmission - that is, not the 240 auto transmission. OK, the auto's may be a different matter. I'm interested in the whole auto-tranny interchangeability thing myself, since my reverse on my 300 turbo is very weak, and I have a tranny from a non-turbo 300. I suspect that the 240 auto transmission was originally engineered for the 240 and that the 300 auto had some upgraded parts - and the turbo auto tranny may be the same deal. On the flip side, at least on 300s, if the transmissions ARE different between the turbo and non-turbo, then why do the turbos have a higher rear-end ratio - if they were re-engineering the trannies for turbo use anyway, why not change the gear ratios in the transmission and use the same rear-end?
> Can the > 240D manual transmission be applied to the 300 turbo engine? specifically > a 1983 240 D std 4 spd transmission ? As far as the manual transmissions go, I suspect that as overbuilt as the Germans tend to make things that the manual transmissions are more likely to be interchangeable than the autos - but I do not know this for a fact. My best guess since the bodies have the same mount points that the only difference would might be the overall transmission length - which, if different, would necessitate swapping driveshafts also. Got a tape measure and access to both vehicles? If the drive-shafts are the same length (and I mean exactly the same - to the millimeter) then I would think it would be doable without swapping driveshafts. I'd be a lot less nervous about putting a 240 manual on a 300 turbo than I am about swapping auto trannies - the most likely area of concern I see would be in the clutch bits - it's possible that the correct 300 turbo clutch parts are stronger than 240 clutch parts.
This is all pure conjecture. Anyone got one of those nifty W123 diesel parts books with all the part numbers?
> Why isn't there an overdrive transmission available ?! in the US. std or > auto. In the U.S.? Was overdrive available elswhere? Either way, the diesels have such a flat power curve that I'm not sure overdrive would gain you much. Besides, I bet if you look at the tranmission ratios that the high gear is a little taller than you'd expect - kind of overdrive.
Conrad
pool man - 21 Apr 2005 01:52 GMT changing the rear end is a lot cheaper than reworking a tranny. my guess any way
the case, minus a few cans!
R & K - 22 Apr 2005 17:05 GMT I did the exact conversion that you are talking about. I drive a 1979 240D. About four years ago the oil pump quit and took the engine with it. I had the option of rebuilding my 240 engine, selling the car to someone with a good engine and a wrecked body, or doing an engine swap. It just so happens that I was talking to the guy who does body and paint for me, and he had a 300SD which had been totalled in a rear end crash.
I had the engine installed and kept my original 4 speed tranny. The tranny that came with the engine was an automatic, and the surgery to install that in my car was a problem I didn't want to deal with. I did have the transmission fully overhauled at that time. I did not change out any gears or anything funky.
I've been driving it since around 2001, have had zero problems with it. I get about 22-25 US mpg. (26-28 if I can find biodiesel). This is the same mileage as I got with the 240. The major difference is POWER! The 240 is rated at around 67 hp, and the 300 turbo at ~120 or so. Can't remember the exact numbers. I live in a mountain state, and the difference climbing hills, or even doing freeway onramps is amazing.
In the 240, I was climbing hills in 2nd, maybe 3rd, doing about 30-35mph and staring at the semi about to use me as a hood ornament. Now I can actually have a fully loaded car, 4people & luggage, and climb the same hill at 55-65. <G> Much better!
The 240 may be a fine engine for city driving, and highway on the flat, but it just isn't enough for mountains.
Rochelle
Ernie Sparks - 23 Apr 2005 23:54 GMT > I did the exact conversion that you are talking about. I drive a 1979 > 240D. About four years ago the oil pump quit and took the engine with [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Rochelle Thanks for the post Rochelle! I've been looking for someone who has actually done this type of conversion. I have an '81 24D with 4-spd manual and only 125k but am sometimes in the same position where a little more power would be great. Only problem is this darn 240 runs perfect, doesn't leak a drop of oil, doesn't use a drop, drives virtually perfect and gets 25 mpg around town. I'm in S. Cal but plan to keep this ole bullet-proof car for the "duration". If it ever gives up the ghost I'm looking for a 5-cyl engine. Again, thanks for the very informative post.
R & K - 24 Apr 2005 03:45 GMT They are bulletproof little beasts aren't they? I can understand why you would want a little more power in Southern California. I grew up in Orange County and went to grad school in LA, so I know the freeways. At the time, I was driving a little Datsun. I was pedalling as fast as I could and that little 4 cyl. just had a hard time.
I currently have an oil leak that has been a real stinker to track down, and the weather has not exactly been cooperative.
Ever wonder why it can be fun tinkering with your car when it is about 70 degrees F, and such a pain in the **** when it is 20 F.
Have fun with your 240!
Rochelle
Pete - 24 Apr 2005 00:44 GMT THANK YOU GOD. I knew I would find the answer in this group. Exactly the information I wanted.
The problem is the mounting of the auto transmissions to the engine is incompatible from the 240 and the 300 - i.e. the bolts don't line up, as I understand it from info from within this group, not having tried it myself personally.
Apparetly from your experience the housing mount bolts for the 4 spd manual manual do mount/match to the 300 engine?? Who did the work for you and can I talk to them? Where are you and the shop? I am in Cincinnati Ohio 859-469-8460
I am curoius about your low gas mileage. My 240 gets 30 mpg, the 300SD got 27 mpg. I don't know yet what the manual gets. I would expect it to get above 30 mpg with the 240 and perhaps 30 with 300. What I would not give for an overdrive!! I remember the Austin Healy 3000 had an electric operated overdrive external to the transmission and to the stick which would be a magnificant addition to the mercedes diesel in my personal fantasy. Is there any infromation about such a contraption ? The reduced noise level on the highway, not mention wear and tear at lower engine speed would be worth the cost and effort.
Incidentally, the 240 is the Berlin taxi. flat land, no highway, heavily loaded [if lucky] speed and acceleration not an issue in the city. durability, reliability and efficienciy the issue.
>I did the exact conversion that you are talking about. I drive a 1979 >240D. About four years ago the oil pump quit and took the engine with it. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Rochelle R & K - 24 Apr 2005 03:38 GMT > Apparetly from your experience the housing mount bolts for the 4 spd manual > manual do mount/match to the 300 engine?? > Who did the work for you and can I talk to them? Where are you and the shop? > I am in Cincinnati Ohio 859-469-8460 AFAIK, the bolt pattern is the same. My mechanic didn't say anything rude about it anyway. I had the work done by Gregg's Autohaus in Boise, Idaho. His phone number is 208 342-4450. I didn't do the work myself, mainly because of time. And I think my Dad was afraid I'd drop the engine on my head or something <G>. Gregg does very nice work, but I learned one VERY IMPORTANT lesson. DO NOT EVER tell the mechanic, "take your time, I'm not in a screaming rush". It took over 13 #$*@% months for him to do the job. (Yes I really said thirteen) And the car was vandalised twice while he had it.
> I am curoius about your low gas mileage. My 240 gets 30 mpg, the 300SD got > 27 mpg. I don't know yet what the manual gets. I would expect it to get > above 30 mpg with the 240 and perhaps 30 with 300. I've never gotten that kind of mileage with either engine. My Dad bought the car new (Euro delivery, then ship to the U.S.), and I think that the best mileage he mentioned was around 26-27. Don't think it ever went over thirty. He lives around Silicon Valley, so not much mountains, mostly city. I wish is got around 30+!!!!
I too would love an overdrive, or a 5-6 speed transmission for those long highway runs. I used to have a Mustang GT with a 5 speed 305. That was my last manual transmission car until I got the MB. I still find myself trying to shift out of 4th into 5th. Sigh.
Not surprised that they are great taxi cars. Great reliability and pretty thrifty at the pump for something that heavy, but here in Idaho, we have mountains, and I am just as happy not being someones hood ornament.
Never been to Berlin although we did spend about 3 weeks in Frankfurt, Idar-Oberstein, Munich and Boeblingen a few years back. Went through the MB museum. That was a blast. Would have liked to have toured the factory too...
Good luck with your transplant
Rochelle
Ernie Sparks - 25 Apr 2005 04:33 GMT > THANK YOU GOD. I knew I would find the answer in this group. Exactly the > information I wanted. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > reduced noise level on the highway, not mention wear and tear at lower > engine speed would be worth the cost and effort. That Austin Healy 3000 was, in my humble opinion, perhaps the best car to ever come out of Britain. What I wouldn't give right now for one of those. Was easier (for me, at least) to sideslip around a corner than a Porsche.
> Incidentally, the 240 is the Berlin taxi. flat land, no highway, heavily > loaded [if lucky] speed and acceleration not an issue in the city. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > > > Rochelle Pete - 24 Apr 2005 00:49 GMT THANK YOU GOD. I knew I would find the answer in this group. Exactly the information I wanted.
The problem is the mounting of the auto transmissions to the engine is incompatible from the 240 and the 300 - i.e. the bolts don't line up, as I understand it from info from within this group, not having tried it myself personally.
Apparetly from your experience the housing mount bolts for the 4 spd manual manual do mount/match to the 300 engine?? Who did the work for you and can I talk to them? Where are you and the shop? I am in Cincinnati Ohio 859-469-8460
I am curoius about your low gas mileage. My 240 gets 30 mpg, the 300SD got 27 mpg. I don't know yet what the manual gets. I would expect it to get above 30 mpg with the 240 and perhaps 30 with 300. What I would not give for an overdrive!! I remember the Austin Healy 3000 had an electric operated overdrive external to the transmission and to the stick which would be a magnificant addition to the mercedes diesel in my personal fantasy. Is there any infromation about such a contraption ? The reduced noise level on the highway, not mention wear and tear at lower engine speed would be worth the cost and effort.
Incidentally, the 240 is the Berlin taxi. flat land, no highway, heavily loaded [if lucky] speed and acceleration not an issue in the city. durability, reliability and efficienciy the issue.
>I did the exact conversion that you are talking about. I drive a 1979 > 240D. About four years ago the oil pump quit and took the engine with [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Rochelle rfenio@indiana.edu - 25 Apr 2005 16:23 GMT Was the 300 a non-turbo? I have a 1982 300 D turbo that I want to eventually put a 4 speed into that originated in my 1976 240. I have heard conflicting views about doing this. Ray
R & K - 26 Apr 2005 19:00 GMT The 300 engine that I used in my engine swap is a turbo out of a 1983 300SD. My car is a 1979 240D (non turbo, of course). The transmission is the original from the 240, 4 speed manual. Had it overhauled at the time of the transplant, since it was out anyway, and I knew that the turbo engine has a lot of torque and might put some stress on it. Didn't do anything weird.
My mechanic said he has done a few of these transplants, with no problems. It has been over three years for me and car still runs like a champ.
Rochelle
> Was the 300 a non-turbo? I have a 1982 300 D turbo that I want to > eventually put a 4 speed into that originated in my 1976 240. I have > heard conflicting views about doing this. Ray Pete - 21 Apr 2005 01:51 GMT That would be very interesting indeed !
>> Know if it is possible to put a 4-speed stick in one? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > cp W?Y - 09 Apr 2005 00:30 GMT >Did Mercedes ever build the 300D with a manual 4 speed or 5 speed? Yes indeed. My oldest MB is a 23 year old 300D with a 4-speed manual shift. Still running sweetly.
Ernie Sparks - 14 Apr 2005 04:13 GMT > >Did Mercedes ever build the 300D with a manual 4 speed or 5 speed? > > > Yes indeed. My oldest MB is a 23 year old 300D with a 4-speed manual > shift. Still running sweetly. Wish I had a stick in my '81 300D. Better mileage?
Pete Cowper - 14 Apr 2005 06:14 GMT >"Did Mercedes ever build the 300D with a manual 4 speed or 5 speed?" In 1999, I rode in a 300D taxi at the Hong Kong airport with a huge column shift lever sticking out. At the time I thought t might even be a 3 speed, probably was a 4 speed on the column.
Pete Cowper (1987 300E)
Steve Gallegos - 28 Apr 2005 04:02 GMT Wow, i cant believe i found this. I have just got a lil work done to my 1985 300D. My turbo is now rebuilt and some vacuum lines fixed. Anyways, i want to know how hard it is to either swap in a 240D 4-speed transmission into my car, or one of the europeon model 5-speeds. I have heard it is real difficult, but never talked to someone who did it. Also, i understand one of you had a shop do it, if you dont mind, how much did that cost you? Thanks a lot.
Steve
R & K - 29 Apr 2005 01:00 GMT I'm the one who had the shop do it. AFAIK, the engine and transmission mated up just fine. (I wish I did have the 5 speed though, and I've got my ear to the ground a little.) To the best of my knowledge, the bolt pattern and the housings are the same shape. I suppose I could go dig out the old 240 engine and the tranny from the 300 and look at them to be sure, but I didn't see any sign of any weirdness the last time I was under the car.
The whole transplant, labor and parts, including a rebuild of my 4 speed tranny, ran in the neighborhood of $3K U.S. about three years ago. Rebuilding my 240 would have run about the same, so I went for more power. I climb real mountains here <G>.
Rochelle
P.S. Still trying to find a home for the automatic transmission which came with my engine, and is currently holding my trailer down. Anyone interested?
> Wow, i cant believe i found this. I have just got a lil work done to my > 1985 300D. My turbo is now rebuilt and some vacuum lines fixed. Anyways, i [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Steve Steve Gallegos - 30 Apr 2005 04:24 GMT I am so dumb, i had the opportunity to buy a 300D with 5speed for not that much, and could have done an engine swap, but i didnt
Pete - 02 May 2005 17:27 GMT Who did the work for you and is there any chance I could talk to them?. Where are you or where was the work done? thanks, Pete
> I'm the one who had the shop do it. AFAIK, the engine and transmission > mated up just fine. (I wish I did have the 5 speed though, and I've got [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> >> Steve R & K - 03 May 2005 03:36 GMT > Who did the work for you and is there any chance I could talk to them?. > Where are you or where was the work done? > thanks, Pete Gregg's Autohaus in Boise, ID did the work for me. Phone # is (208)342-4450. You are welcome to give them a call. Gregg himself is the one to talk to if you can catch him. The kid that answered the phone last time I called couldn't even give me an estimate on a brake job. Sigh. He is a good mechanic, but I think one of the world's slowest.
When I was calling around to see if this was even possible, Eurosport practically made "evil eye" motions and told me it couldn't be done. Gregg, who had done work on the car before, said "no problem, I've done a bunch of these." Since I didn't do the swap personally, I can't speak to precicely how much of a pain it was. I had to scrounge a few parts for the throttle linkage off of a 300 at a parts yard, and part of the drive shaft. Everything else came from the 240.
If you want to know more about it, drop me a note personally & I'll get back to you, or email you a phone number.
Rochelle
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