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Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / April 2005

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Wheel alignment and wobbly

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Ben - 08 Apr 2005 15:57 GMT
Recently (within the past two weeks) I've noticed that my 91
300ce seems to be riding more "wobbly."  I also noticed that
the steering alignment is very much off, as I have to hold
the wheel about 30-40 degrees to the left just to keep it
straight on the road.  If I let go of the wheel, it will
immediately jerk to the right (this poses a potentially
deadly problem on the interstate).  Other than alignment,
what sort of things do I need to check out?  What causes
this problem anyway?  Thanks!
Martin Joseph - 08 Apr 2005 18:58 GMT
> Recently (within the past two weeks) I've noticed that my 91 300ce
> seems to be riding more "wobbly."  I also noticed that the steering
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> what sort of things do I need to check out?  What causes this problem
> anyway?  Thanks!

DO NOT DRIVE THIS CAR.

If this issue appeared suddenly, that means something has come loose,
and it might just be hanging by a thread.  This is a problem that could
kill you and innocent bystanders as well.

Find a reputable front end shop (not the MB dealer) and have the car
towed (or if it's close drive real slow.)

Good luck,
marty
Rodney T. Grill - 08 Apr 2005 19:29 GMT
>> Recently (within the past two weeks) I've noticed that my 91 300ce
>> seems to be riding more "wobbly."  I also noticed that the steering
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Good luck,
> marty

DITTO!  I had a car once where the bolts on the rack and pinion unit became
loose and it did exactly the same thing.  I was able to get it to a garage,
and the mechanic said I was about two threads away form not having any
steering control at all.

Signature

- RODNEY

T.G. Lambach - 08 Apr 2005 19:35 GMT
You've been driving it this way for TWO WEEKS????
Jim Vatunz - 08 Apr 2005 21:15 GMT
>Recently (within the past two weeks) I've noticed that my 91
>300ce seems to be riding more "wobbly."  I also noticed that
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>what sort of things do I need to check out?  What causes
>this problem anyway?  Thanks!

I had a problem like that years ago. The tread separated from the
steel belt on the tyre. Very easy to check and cheap to fix.

To view the day to day life of a loser go here.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~farmerjim/log/log.html
Ben - 09 Apr 2005 05:51 GMT
Thanks for the replies.  "Wobbly" is not the best term.  It
just seems to be riding a little more rough than normal..
but it's so slight that I'm not sure if it's just my
imagination.  I've inspected the tires and they look fine
with no bulges or anything unusual.  I thought the problem
might just be wheel alignment but I hadn't thought of
something about to fall apart.  The only reputable MB repair
shop I know of is closed on weekends.  Other than not
driving the car, is there anything I can do?
T.G. Lambach - 09 Apr 2005 21:25 GMT
Check all the tires' pressure.

Jack up the front - each side - to see if its wheel rotates freely or
drags due to a stuck brake. With one wheel off the ground shake the
elevated wheel in all directions to test for looseness - do this
carefully, not so hard that car falls off jack, sending jack flying.

You may find nothing, in that case you should include the rear
suspension in the possibilities; if a rear wheel isn't square to the
body it will "steer" the car and so make the car "crab" down the road,
and it may be that crabbing is what you're steering against. You will
probably not see anything in the rear but may see a rear wheel move vs.
the body when, with brakes off and front wheels blocked, the
transmission is shifted from D to R and R to D with engine at idle.
Ben - 12 Apr 2005 04:06 GMT
Tire pressure is good.  I jacked up the front end on both
sides and they both spin fine, but I noticed the right wheel
has a little bit of give when shaking it left-to-right.
Bolts on all the wheels are tight.  The only funny thing I
noticed is that the shock springs are not exactly
symmetrical on both sides.  Looking from the side of the
car, one spring is slightly convex, the other concave.  I've
never paid that close attention to them before, so I don't
know whether that's normal.
T.G. Lambach - 12 Apr 2005 05:10 GMT
Have a M-B shop look it over.
Guenter Scholz - 13 Apr 2005 13:12 GMT
    I have apparently a similar problem.  My front starts shaking around
85kph until about 90 kph - severly sometimes depending on the road surface
(washboard).  Took tires off and everything appears tight, the torsion bar
is a little lose in the rubber bushing but that's normal... I've changed
tires to see if it's the wheel balance and the start of the shimmying now
starts at about 80 kph.  If the road is very smooth, there is no shimmying at
all..... I'm confused as well.

cheers

ps could it simply be the steering damper I wonder?
Martin Joseph - 13 Apr 2005 18:52 GMT
>     I have apparently a similar problem.  My front starts shaking around
> 85kph until about 90 kph - severly sometimes depending on the road
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> starts at about 80 kph.  If the road is very smooth, there is no shimmying at
> all..... I'm confused as well.

That doesn't sound like the same problem at all.

Pay attention here guys...

For the previous poster with the loose wheel.  THIS IS A LIFE
THREATENING ISSUE.

Is that clear :~)

Marty
thomcasey@gmail.com - 13 Apr 2005 21:05 GMT
I agree.  He should look at the Tie Rod's.  Mine started with a little
pull.  On further inspection, I noticedboth seals on the Left and Right
tie rods were rotted and almost gone (238,000 miles).  I bought the
left and right from Rusty for less than 100.00 total.  Set them to
333mm + or - 2mm, tightened them down, and swapped them out.  Easy to
do, the alignment was'n hurt, and pulling stopped.  I would hate to see
one of those snap.  major damage to the front suspension would be the
least of the problems, death to car occupants or pedestrians (or both)
would be the worst.

Either way, no reason to risk death for less than a Ben Franklin in
parts, and less than two hours of work.

Thom
Ben - 14 Apr 2005 04:20 GMT
I've looked at the tie rods and nothing is rusted or loose.
Everything seems very well intact.  Could one of the
problems be the steering damper?  Obviously the loose right
wheel is a problem too, but I can't figure out exactly why
it's loose.  Is it going to fall off if I drive the car?
I'm going to take it to the shop when I get a chance, but I
would like to at least have an idea of what it could be just
to satisfy my curiosity.
canoli@sbcglobal.net - 14 Apr 2005 05:06 GMT
>I'm going to take it to the shop when I get a chance, but I
>would like to at least have an idea of what it could be just
>to satisfy my curiosity.

Keep driving with a loose wheel and you won't have to worry about
taking the car to the shop: when it falls off, and if you haven't hurt
yourself or anyone else, just call the tow truck.

Canoli
Ben - 14 Apr 2005 05:30 GMT
I haven't been driving the car.  Do you have anything of
value to share, or are you just trolling here while waiting
for your porn sites to load?

>>I'm going to take it to the shop when I get a chance, but
>>I
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Canoli
canoli@sbcglobal.net - 14 Apr 2005 06:15 GMT
>I haven't been driving the car.  Do you have anything of
>value to share, or are you just trolling here while waiting
>for your porn sites to load?

You wrote:

>>>>I'm going to take it to the shop when I get a chance, but
>>>>I
>>>>would like to at least have an idea of what it could be
>>>>just
>>>>to satisfy my curiosity.

I assumed you weren't getting the car to the shop by osmotic action,
but were in fact driving it.  My apologies for thinking you were
dumber than your response demonstrated.

Canoli

>>>I'm going to take it to the shop when I get a chance, but
>>>I
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>
>> Canoli
Martin Joseph - 14 Apr 2005 05:31 GMT
> I've looked at the tie rods and nothing is rusted or loose. Everything
> seems very well intact.  Could one of the problems be the steering
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> would like to at least have an idea of what it could be just to satisfy
> my curiosity.

YOU SHOULDN"T DRIVE THE CAR (sorry for yelling).

DO NOT DRIVE IT UNTIL YOU FIND/FIX THE PROBLEM.

Sheesh.

The loose right wheel is the problem, I'll bet.  Could be ball joint or
tie rods, or wheel bearings, or ....

Don't drive the car until it's fixed, seriously.  I am not joking.

Imagine that right front wheel randomly steering the car around and not
paying any attention to the steering wheel.

Marty
Conrad - 15 Apr 2005 01:36 GMT
>> I've looked at the tie rods and nothing is rusted or loose. Everything
>> seems very well intact.  Could one of the problems be the steering
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Marty

I have had the experience of losing a front wheel (on a LeCar -
anyone remember that US market gem from Renault?) and of having
a tie-rod fail. I didn't enjoy either experience, but I have
to say, losing the whole wheel was vastly preferable. At least
then, I was only grinding along on the metal, with three good
pieces of rubber still pointing more or less in the same direction.

Losing the tie-rod end was ugly - and it failed without notice.
One second I'm driving and the next I'm headed towards my
neighbor's yard. The thought of this type of failure on the
highway, or a main road still gives me chills.

It's VERY hard to tell what the problem is in a newsgroup,
just because there are a bunch of parts in a front-end,
and some of the failure modes of the various parts can give
similar symptoms - but you can forget about the steering
damper - it will not cause your car to pull to one side.
The pull to one side, coupled with the "shakiness" adds up
to the failure of a critical piece of the front suspension.

I don't know how "loose" the front wheel is (the bearings
would have to be on the verge of self-destruct to cause
a 30-degree cock in the steering wheel), but this amount
of offset in the steering indicates something is severely
out of kilter, and that something is by all means best
diagnosed at a _reputable_ (Yes, there are sleazebags
in the front end/alignment business) front end shop.

I don't think it's anyone's intent in this group to insult
you - it's just that no one here wants to pick up the
newspaper and read about a Benz that veered across the
center median and crashed head-on into a school bus.

Conrad
pool man - 15 Apr 2005 02:47 GMT
this post started on the 8 th and it is now the 15 th

you could have had it fixed by now.

the case, minus a few cans!
Ben - 15 Apr 2005 03:24 GMT
I was very surprised when I got all these responses saying
that the car is a deathtrap.  I never thought of it being
something that would result in a loss of steering
altogether.  Anyway, I have been driving another car and am
going to take the Merc into the shop as soon as I get a
chance.  One more question: Is there any way to tell by
looking whether a critical component is breaking down or
about to fall off?
trader4@optonline.net - 15 Apr 2005 06:17 GMT
" was very surprised when I got all these responses saying
that the car is a deathtrap.  I never thought of it being
something that would result in a loss of steering
altogether.  Anyway, I have been driving another car and am
going to take the Merc into the shop as soon as I get a
chance.  One more question: Is there any way to tell by
looking whether a critical component is breaking down or
about to fall off? "

By now it's quite obvious that you're either a troll or incredibly
stupid.
Conrad - 15 Apr 2005 18:22 GMT
> I was very surprised when I got all these responses saying
> that the car is a deathtrap.  I never thought of it being
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> looking whether a critical component is breaking down or
> about to fall off?

In the case of my tie-rod incident - no - but I think that
was just a defective part - the tie-rod end actually sheared
(fractured?) on the threaded portion allowing the tie-rod
to fall out of the steering knuckle. But most front-end problems
manifest themselves by their symptoms. Which is what you have.
Periodically inspecting your tires can reveal some problems -
the tread wear should be laterally symetric, and not exhibit
any variation in thickness around the circumference.

As to some of the other posts. Really folks. A Troll or Stupid?
It costs nothing to be civil to a troll - that is absolutely
the response that most trolls _don't_ want. Trolls who get
boring replies soon migrate elsewhere for their entertainment.

As far as "stupid" - I don't know about the rest of you, but
I was born stupid. Everything I know, someone had to share
with me. While the idea of 2+tons of steel moving at 70 mph
with no steering control being a bit unsafe seems blatantly
obvious to some, it's a testament to the manufacturing
quality of the automotive industry these days that catastrophic
mechanical failure is just not on the radar of a lot of folks.

The news-bits about Pintos and Crown Vics exploding, and certain
SUV's turning cartwheels mostly serve to give us a false sense
of security ("Thankgawdidonthaveoneofthemcars") I'm absolutely
blown away when my significant other says something like, "The
oil light in my car has been on for a week and it's really bugging
me. Can you make it turn off? (Thank goodness replacing the
pressure sender fixed that one). But instead of replying with
my first reaction - "ARE YOU F#@CKING INSANE!!!" I had to gently
say, "Honey, when that light comes on that means that there's
a very good chance your engine is going to turn into a smoking
piece of useless junk within three seconds, and you will get
run over on the highway by the big truck behind you when that
happens and it will cost thousands of dollars to bury whatever
pieces of you they find in the charred wreckage.". Message
received.

Education beats castigation ;-)

Cheers,

Conrad
trader4@optonline.net - 15 Apr 2005 18:41 GMT
"As far as "stupid" - I don't know about the rest of you, but
I was born stupid. "

Apparently you don't know the difference between being stupid and being
ignorant.  In this guys case, the whole thing has been explained to him
several times and he's not an infant.   If he still doesn't get it, in
my book he is either stupid or a troll.
Conrad - 15 Apr 2005 23:38 GMT
> "As far as "stupid" - I don't know about the rest of you, but
> I was born stupid. "
>
> Apparently you don't know the difference between being stupid and being
> ignorant.

Which would apparently make me born stupid and ignorant- see, it still
works.

> In this guys case, the whole thing has been explained to him
> several times and he's not an infant.   If he still doesn't get it, in
> my book he is either stupid or a troll.

Again, flames are a troll's delight. Why indulge them?
True stupidity implies a lack of processing power upstairs.
Why chastise someone who is limited in this way? Ignorance
is a simple lack of knowledge (I do know the differerence,
but sometimes defer to common usage, which often does not
differentiate between similar, but distinct adjectives), but
not all folks fill their knowledge buckets up at the same rate.

Berating those who are a little slower to acknowledge reality
(and yes, a flaming death on the highway is a definite reality)
probably doesn't do as much to convey the reality as it does
to reveal the poster's character.

A while back, I saw a post on another forum. As I read it,
I laughed so hard that I blew my beer right out my nose,
and had to spend a while cleaning my keyboard. Seems he had
a 300D that wouldn't shut off, and he had gone to the local
auto parts store, where they disconnected not one, but BOTH
battery terminals, to no avail. The poster clearly had no
knowledge of diesels, the mechanical nature of the fuel
system in his car, and even less knowledge of basic electricity
(both terminals?). Thank goodness some of those reading
(those who weren't laughing too hard to type) gave the guy
a clue. Politely. He fixed his problem, he may or may not
still be stupid, and he's a little less ignorant. And in
_my_ book, that's a good thing.

Cheers,

Conrad
Pete Cowper - 17 Apr 2005 07:29 GMT
Hey, let's show some respect for trolls.  I remember from my childhood
fairly tales, I think it was the "Three Billy Goats Gruff," that trolls
live under bridges.

We have a beloved member of this group who claims to live under a bridge
with his S420 . . .

Pete Cowper (1987 300E)
canoli@sbcglobal.net - 15 Apr 2005 18:41 GMT
One more question: Is there any way to tell by
>> looking whether a critical component is breaking down or
>> about to fall off?

>Education beats castigation ;-)
>
>Cheers,
>
>Conrad

Everything you say is true, but educating someone who hasn't a clue is
more than difficult, it's almost impossible.  

Think about what he asks: "can you tell if something is breaking down
or about to fall off simply by looking at it?".  Does that not fly in
the face of the simplest, most basic logic?

Canoli
Conrad - 15 Apr 2005 22:04 GMT
On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:41:26 +0000, canoli wrote:

>  One more question: Is there any way to tell by
>>> looking whether a critical component is breaking down or
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Canoli

Granted. My contention is that while there are some die-hard
gearheads in this forum, who have black diesel oil running in
their veins, and who appreciate the art of engineering in the
Benzes, there are those who bought a Benz for other reasons,
and who may be just a bit clueless about things mechanical.
And, again, it is a tribute to current engineering that it is
actually possible to treat a car as an appliance these days.

Look at it this way. Computers are sold as appliances these
days, "Just stick the key in and go". Yet they are complex
devices, with many many hundreds of software components. I've
been in the computer business for over 25 years, which in terms
of hardware and software evolution far outstrips the evolution
of the automotive industry in the last 75 years.

There is one company which has consistently released some of
the poorest, least reliable, most security-oblivious software
I have ever seen. In excess of 99% of all viruses I have ever
seen victimize this company's software. This company has been
accused and convicted of sleazy business practices in multiple
courts on multiple occasions. Yet most of the readers of this
forum are still running some version of Microsoft Windows.

Again, this is because of the "appliance mentality" that this
is even possible - but let me ask you; do you know how to
restart your print spooler? Do you know why DCOM and RPC
are just stunningly bad ideas when run on a machine connected
to the Internet? Or do you just blindly drive around the
Internet with your front wheels wobbling?

To my mind, and in my experience, this defies all "logic",
simple, basic or otherwise. But I have to realize that this
is not genetic knowledge, like breathing and suckling.

All I'm saying is that Ben may be mechanically clueless,
but he, and anyone else reading this forum, may be better
seduced into the rewards of properly caring for and maintaining
his Benz by a little courtesy than by name-calling. And if
he's a troll, a polite answer will drive him out of the group
faster than any other strategy - unless you enjoy feeding
the trolls.

Cheers,

Conrad
Aaron - 16 Apr 2005 02:23 GMT
If I may..

  I just started reading this thread but I feel the need to point out that
some of us have dreamed of owning a Benz for years but now that we have them
we are finding ourselves (myself) in over our heads.  I have moved up the
food chain from an old VW fastback that could be fixed with paperclips and
duct tape to a car that has two $300 fuel pressure regulators, and that may
be the cheapest thing wrong with my car.  I admit that Ben comes across as
impatient, but I remember the VW group where so many people were on at the
same time that I could post a problem, eat dinner, and expect that a
solution and detailed instructions had been posted in the meantime.  It
could be that he is just used to a simpler, faster fix.  I do hope that I
don't come across in my posts as stupid or ignorant, but keep in mind that I
have acquired a car that has systems and options I have never dealt with and
in some cases have never heard of.  All I know is that once I drove a 500
series I was hooked, now I have one, and now it's time for me to learn by
asking sometimes stupid, sometimes ignorant questions.

Respectfully
  Aaron
  '91 560 SEL, love of my life, bane of my existence
> On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:41:26 +0000, canoli wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>
> Conrad
trader4@optonline.net - 16 Apr 2005 03:44 GMT
"there are those who bought a Benz for other reasons,
and who may be just a bit clueless about things mechanical. "

Just a bit clueless?  This guy says he has a car that recently
developed a problem where he has to hold the steering wheel at 40
degrees to the left to go straight down the road.  And if he let's go,
"it will immediately jerk to the right posing a potentially deadly
problem on the interstate."   And then he says he never thought of this
being a death trap and persists in asking questions about what to look
for to self diagnose it, even after being repeatidly told that he
should not drive it and have a pro look at it.  Give me a break!

"There is one company which has consistently released some of
the poorest, least reliable, most security-oblivious software
I have ever seen. In excess of 99% of all viruses I have ever
seen victimize this company's software"

Wasn't it Willy Sutton who when asked why he robbed banks said "Cause
that's where the money is?"   The most direct way for someone creating
a virus to attack computers is through the O/S, since that is the
controlling software of the system and it's interface to the outside
world.   And it's only natural that those seeking to create viruses
that will spread and screw up systems will concentrate on the most
popular O/S's run on computers throughout the world.

" Do you know why DCOM and RPC
are just stunningly bad ideas when run on a machine connected
to the Internet? Or do you just blindly drive around the
Internet with your front wheels wobbling?"

Like comparing apples and oranges.  One doesn't need to know much at
all about how a car operates to realize that the car in question is
obviously seriously unsafe.  A correct analogy might be someone
continuing to ask questions about how to check out his PC with flames
coming out the back, even after being told to turn it off and have a
pro inspect it.
Conrad - 16 Apr 2005 06:07 GMT
> "there are those who bought a Benz for other reasons,
> and who may be just a bit clueless about things mechanical. "
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> for to self diagnose it, even after being repeatidly told that he
> should not drive it and have a pro look at it.  Give me a break!

I have given you a break. I know nothing about Ben, but I must
confess that there was an age when the idea of something screwing
up with life-altering results didn't occur to me. I thought (no,
clearly "thought" is the wrong word) suffered from the delusion
that I was invulnerable. Perhaps Ben is that age. Perhaps even
you were at one time?

> "There is one company which has consistently released some of
> the poorest, least reliable, most security-oblivious software
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> that will spread and screw up systems will concentrate on the most
> popular O/S's run on computers throughout the world.

This idea has merit - but somewhat falls apart when you consider
markets that are not Microsoft-dominated. For example, Web servers
are tasty targets for hackers - And Microsoft IIS only has about
1/3 of that market. Yet it's IIS that keeps getting hacked and
virused - not the Apache Web server which enjoys about a 66% market
share. And unfortunately, while, for example RPC and DCOM _are_
some glaring holes into the OS, the majority of viruses are
written against equally glaring holes in various Microsoft
applications. Which, due to fundamental defects in design
architecture, the O/S puts far too much faith in.

And that doesn't even begin to address the internal flaws. I've
seen many non-Microsoft systems getting hammered on a daily
basis with non-scheduled outages measuring 0.00 over a period
of years. I have yet to see MS systems consistently approach
that level of stability. And that's not just my anecdotal
evidence - check the top fifty uptimes at:

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html

Not exactly dominated by the world's best and most popular
O/S. And the scary thing about the Win2k servers (my favorite
MS O/S, by the way) on this list is that some of the recent
security patches are impossible to apply without rebooting -
these guys are targets - possibly infected right now. Google
"scob virus" then tell me you want to visit their websites.
On a Solaris, Unix, BSD or Linux system, you can upgrade
and tune pieces of the system with no downtime. It really
is possible to do it better than MS does.

But somehow people persist in showing a devotion to Bill Gates
that I can assure you is not reciprocated. All I can do is
shrug - I've also seen people devotedly drive around Chevy
Vegas until there were no longer enough loosely-connected
rust particles to keep four wheels on the ground. Go figure.

> " Do you know why DCOM and RPC
> are just stunningly bad ideas when run on a machine connected
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> coming out the back, even after being told to turn it off and have a
> pro inspect it.

Not really - I'm just suggesting that what may be common sense
to one is arcane and possibly not intuitive knowledge to others.
But you've got me really worried about my PCs - I thought they were
supposed to have flames coming out the back -
those darn AMD processors ;-)

Conrad
Ben - 16 Apr 2005 06:17 GMT
   As I've said repeatedly, I have not been driving the
car.  I stopped after being told of the possibility that the
car might suddenly be rendered uncontrollable on the road.
As I've also said before, I'm not a mechanic, but I'm
willing to learn and that's what I'm here to do.  I
sincerely appreciate it when people share their own
knowledge and experiences.  Truthfully, had it not been for
some of the people here, I would still be driving the car
and putting others and myself in danger.  But it teaches me
nothing to hear an anonymous stranger call me stupid without
contributing anything of value.
   Anyway, I got the car looked at and all it needs is new
tires.  Thanks to all who pointed me in the right direction.

Ben
canoli@sbcglobal.net - 16 Apr 2005 07:17 GMT
But it teaches me
>nothing to hear an anonymous stranger call me stupid without
>contributing anything of value.
>    Anyway, I got the car looked at and all it needs is new
>tires.  Thanks to all who pointed me in the right direction.
>
>Ben

Teaching requires a pupil able to learn: if you truly believe new
tires will cure a loose wheel perhaps understanding mechanical aspects
of the car is beyond your ken, particularly when you inspected and
spun the present tires and found nothing visibly wrong with them.

If money is a concern, have the car inspected at the nearest MB
dealer, then bring it to your favorite local shop for the repairs. If
it was me, I would have the work done by the dealer for peace of mind,
if nothing else.

Canoli

Canoli
Martin Joseph - 16 Apr 2005 08:40 GMT
<snip>    Anyway, I got the car looked at and all it needs is new tires.

That isn't possible,  unless your previous statement about the wheel
being loose was wrong?

Tires don't make a wheel loose, although they can make a car feel like
it has a loose wheel on the road...

Marty
trader4@optonline.net - 16 Apr 2005 17:56 GMT
"That isn't possible,  unless your previous statement about the wheel
being loose was wrong?
Tires don't make a wheel loose, although they can make a car feel like
it has a loose wheel on the road...

Marty

Gee, Marty, maybe you're finally starting to figure out that all this
BS doesnt add up and this clown is a troll!
Jim Vatunz - 16 Apr 2005 09:43 GMT
>    As I've said repeatedly, I have not been driving the
>car.  I stopped after being told of the possibility that the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Ben

I had a hunch it was a tyre. As i said earlier it happened to me a few
years ago with a different car. The tread separated from the steel
belt and formed a somewhat large bubble, I couldn't see it either at
first. Maybe i parked with it at the bottom on the road a couple of
times but i was on a longish trip and put it down to knocking the
wheel alignment out a bit so i tweaked that a bit fairly
unsuccessfully. Upon arriving home a couple of days later the tyre was
obvious to me and it scared me as it could have given up the ghost
anytime. What was even more surprising was the tyre place where i
bought the bad tyre didn't have any 2nd thoughts or arguments about
replacing it. I'm not used to levels of service like that.
Of course i still had the problem of having to tweak the wheel
alignment back to somewhere near the correct position but i don't
remember that being a problem or more than a few minutes work.
I think you threw all of us when you stated the wheel was loose. That
IS a problem but maybe you threw it in as a red herring.
My stepdaughter complained of the same problem a few years ago and
remembering my experience i told her. She told her mechanic what i
said and it did save her some dollars as the mechanic hadn't
considered the tyre and would have started attacking the car with
spanners if she hadn't put the penny in the slot and mentioned tyre.

To view the day to day life of a loser go here.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~farmerjim/log/log.html
trader4@optonline.net - 16 Apr 2005 13:32 GMT
"Anyway, I got the car looked at and all it needs is new
tires.  Thanks to all who pointed me in the right direction.
Ben "

Oh really Ben?   Now I know for sure you're a troll.  Let's recap what
you claimed starting from the beginning:

"I also noticed that
the steering alignment is very much off, as I have to hold
the wheel about 30-40 degrees to the left just to keep it
straight on the road.  If I let go of the wheel, it will
immediately jerk to the right (this poses a potentially
deadly problem on the interstate).
I've inspected the tires and they look fine
with no bulges or anything unusual. "

"Tire pressure is good.  I jacked up the front end on both
sides and they both spin fine, but I noticed the right wheel
has a little bit of give when shaking it left-to-right."

"I've looked at the tie rods and nothing is rusted or loose.
Everything seems very well intact.   Could one of the
problems be the steering damper?  Obviously the loose right
wheel is a problem too, but I can't figure out exactly why
it's loose.  Is it going to fall off if I drive the car? "

"I was very surprised when I got all these responses saying
that the car is a deathtrap.  I never thought of it being
something that would result in a loss of steering
altogether."

So, let's get all this straight.  In a period of two weeks, your car
got to the point that you had to hold the wheel at 40 degrees to go
straight and keep it on the road.   If you let go, you said the car
jerked to the right so hard that it was potentially deadly.  Yet,
you're profess surprise when told not to drive the car because it's
dangerous.

You find a right wheel that's loose when you shake it, inspected the
tires and said they looked OK, yet all is now solved with some new
tires.  I also find it amazing that someone that professes to know so
little about either cars or how serious this problem you described is,
would know what tie rod ends are, or a steering damper, yet you brought
up the terms.

IMO, a troll for sure!
Martin Joseph - 16 Apr 2005 17:14 GMT
> IMO, a troll for sure!

I think you are a troll.
Martin Joseph - 16 Apr 2005 05:05 GMT
>  Yet most of the readers of this
> forum are still running some version of Microsoft Windows.

Well they really are stupid...

Sorry couldn't resist.

I am with Conrad on this one.  It's doesn't hurt to be nice.

Marty
trader4@optonline.net - 16 Apr 2005 17:51 GMT
" Well they really are stupid...
Sorry couldn't resist.
I am with Conrad on this one.  It's doesn't hurt to be nice. "

Marty

Nice going Marty.  You say it doesn't hurt to be nice, but here you are
calling people here who use MSFT Windows stupid.  Must be nice to be
real smart like you!
Conrad - 16 Apr 2005 22:34 GMT
> " Well they really are stupid...
> Sorry couldn't resist.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> calling people here who use MSFT Windows stupid.  Must be nice to be
> real smart like you!

Umm - I suspect that Martin didn't break his advice. It's called
"humor", and a touch of it here and there doesn't hurt. Martin
had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he wrote this - or he
wouldn't be running Windows himself ;-)

Conrad
Martin Joseph - 17 Apr 2005 05:40 GMT
> Umm - I suspect that Martin didn't break his advice. It's called
> "humor", and a touch of it here and there doesn't hurt. Martin
> had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he wrote this - or he
> wouldn't be running Windows himself ;-)

I'm not and I never will.  Still it was intend as humor....  Which
always does contain a grain of truth.
Conrad - 17 Apr 2005 20:00 GMT
>> Umm - I suspect that Martin didn't break his advice. It's called
>> "humor", and a touch of it here and there doesn't hurt. Martin
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I'm not and I never will.  Still it was intend as humor....  Which
> always does contain a grain of truth.

My sincere apologies for the insult, sir, (I was looking at the wrong
message header when I wrote that) and many thanks for your not supporting
bad software. That's really all it takes to get developers to make good
software - just don't buy the sorry stuff. I wonder when Unison is going
to get ported to the other *nix platforms - from OS X to BSD to Solaris
to Linux doesn't seem like much of a stretch...

Grains of truth are apparently much like grains of sand - they
get in some folks shorts...

Cheers,

Conrad
Ernie Sparks - 16 Apr 2005 04:24 GMT
Can I throw my broken ball joint story in about here?
Was stationed in Germany in early '60s. Had shipped a 1958 Dodge with the
D500 engine (rather large one at that) upon assignment.
Made a left turn onto the base one morning and just as I did so the right,
lower ball joint gave loose and the bottom of the wheel flipped out at about
a 45 degree angle. When this happened it snapped the brake line and of
course when I hit the brakes nothing happened. I slid to a rather
embarrassing stop right in front of the gate guard. He was as surprised as
me.
Here's the interesting part.....I had well exceeded 100 mph the day before
on the autobahn. Talk about luck!
One other thing for the initial poster....GET YOUR FRONT END LOOKED AT
BEFORE DRIVING FURTHER! Sorry. Didn't mean to shout. Just wanted to save you
some embarrassment....or worse.

> I've looked at the tie rods and nothing is rusted or loose.
> Everything seems very well intact.  Could one of the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> would like to at least have an idea of what it could be just
> to satisfy my curiosity.
Dori A Schmetterling - 16 Apr 2005 16:53 GMT
Did you enjoy the beer and/or wine?

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

[...]
> Was stationed in Germany in early '60s. Had shipped a 1958 Dodge with the
[...]
pool man - 16 Apr 2005 23:20 GMT
amd i thought it was winders

the case, minus a few cans!
Ernie Sparks - 17 Apr 2005 02:11 GMT
> Did you enjoy the beer and/or wine?

You had to ask?!! '59er Rhine wine was the absolutely best wine I've ever
had. Must have drank up a fortune there since I found out it was $23 per
bottle when I returned to the states. I paid about $2 there....several
bottles per month.....many times a bottle with lunch! Ahhhh.....those were
the days.

> DAS
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > Was stationed in Germany in early '60s. Had shipped a 1958 Dodge with the
> [...]
canoli@sbcglobal.net - 17 Apr 2005 02:34 GMT
I paid about $2 there....several
>bottles per month.....many times a bottle with lunch! Ahhhh.....those were
>the days.

Try Two Buck Chuck at Trader Joe, maybe costs a bit more outside
California.  Here in LA it's $24 a case, and is as good and maybe even
better than many wines which are much more expensive.

Canoli
Ernie Sparks - 24 Apr 2005 01:22 GMT
>  I paid about $2 there....several
> >bottles per month.....many times a bottle with lunch! Ahhhh.....those were
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Canoli

Are we talking the same stuff? I'm talking about 1959 Rhine Valley white
wine bottled in 1959. It was called '59er Rhine Wine. Don't think it would
even be good now. Too long ago for white wine I believe.
Dori A Schmetterling - 17 Apr 2005 10:45 GMT
There's excellent wine from California and the Pacific North West these
days, but they ain't necessarily cheap.

I can confirm that decent wine in Germany is still cheap, e.g. EUR 5 for a
0.75 l bottle (gone up from 0.7 l in your day...) for something pretty
decent bought directly from a vintner.

In real terms wine is probably cheaper than its ever been.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

[...]

> You had to ask?!! '59er Rhine wine was the absolutely best wine I've ever
> had. Must have drank up a fortune there since I found out it was $23 per
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> the
>> [...]
Dori A Schmetterling - 17 Apr 2005 21:47 GMT
PS.  By the time it gets to Britain it's at least double, if not triple  :-(

Part of that is because of tax, but what I can't understand how AU/NZ wine
can undercut (in price, not quality) German wine here (UK)

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

> There's excellent wine from California and the Pacific North West these
> days, but they ain't necessarily cheap.
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>> the
>>> [...]
Martin Joseph - 18 Apr 2005 07:36 GMT
> PS.  By the time it gets to Britain it's at least double, if not triple  :-(
>
> Part of that is because of tax, but what I can't understand how AU/NZ
> wine can undercut (in price, not quality) German wine here (UK)

Actually the Australian wines are getting quite nice these days.  
Excellent quality and decent prices too.

I have never been too impressed with german wines personally.  Although
I do like the ice wine I had in the Mosel valley...

Marty
Dori A Schmetterling - 18 Apr 2005 11:24 GMT
AU wines have been "quite nice" for years.  In fact, I heard the other day
they have overtaken French wines as Britons' favourite wine region.

German white wines are good/excellent, red not (despite their best
endeavours).  Of course there are poor white wines, too.  Depends what and
where you buy.

DAS
Signature

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

>> PS.  By the time it gets to Britain it's at least double, if not triple
>> :-(
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Marty
greek_philosophizer - 18 Apr 2005 14:08 GMT
> AU wines have been "quite nice" for years.  In fact, I heard the other day
> they have overtaken French wines as Britons' favourite wine region.
>
> German white wines are good/excellent, red not (despite their best
> endeavours).  Of course there are poor white wines, too.  Depends what and
> where you buy.

 I think in the USA the problem for many potential wine
consumers is not the price or the
availability  of quality wine but the
lack of enough wine experience to be able to
decide which wine is of decent quality.

 
.
Dori A Schmetterling - 18 Apr 2005 16:43 GMT
I am reminded of what I thought was a slightly peculiar experience in the LA
area a few years ago.  The family was driving around and I wanted to buy a
bottle of red wine for dinner that evening (staying with relatives). I
stopped at this classy looking wine store and asked for a suggestions for
bottle of decent red for maybe USD 15.  I was led straight to the Italian
section...

When I asked about Californian I was told there was no good 'cheap'
Californian wine.

And I thought I was in a (THE) wine growing state of the Union...:-)

If you're wondering, I did buy a Californian wine as I didn't come all this
way to drink French or Italian, but it cost me over USD 20...

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

[...]

>  I think in the USA the problem for many potential wine
> consumers is not the price or the
> availability  of quality wine but the
> lack of enough wine experience to be able to
> decide which wine is of decent quality.
canoli@sbcglobal.net - 18 Apr 2005 19:25 GMT
>  I think in the USA the problem for many potential wine
>consumers is not the price or the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>  
>.
Not quite.  It doesn't require years of experience to know when a wine
pleases and when it does not. The problems arise when an inexpensive
bottle of wine is as good or better than the most expensive brands,
creating questions as to why the supposedly 'better' brand is so much
more than the much cheaper wine, which is more pleasing.

I don't drink much wine anymore but when I do I go to Trader Joe's
nearest store and buy a $2.00 bottle of Charles Shaw, familiarly known
as Two Buck Chuck.  I don't know if it has nose, character, or any of
the other descriptive terms used by connoisseurs, but I enjoy it as
much or more than all other wines, with the sole exception of Opus
One.

Canoli
Ernie Sparks - 24 Apr 2005 01:27 GMT
> >  I think in the USA the problem for many potential wine
> >consumers is not the price or the
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Canoli

You're not the first to suggest the Two Buck Chuck. Guess I'll have to try
that.
Martin Joseph - 18 Apr 2005 18:37 GMT
> AU wines have been "quite nice" for years.  In fact, I heard the other
> day they have overtaken French wines as Britons' favourite wine region.
>
> German white wines are good/excellent, red not (despite their best
> endeavours).  Of course there are poor white wines, too.  Depends what
> and where you buy.

That makes sense, since I tend to prefer the reds...

Marty
Dori A Schmetterling - 18 Apr 2005 22:13 GMT
An interesting development in France is the arrival of Australian, American
and other winemasters with experience  of New Word techniques...

DAS
Signature

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

[...]

> That makes sense, since I tend to prefer the reds...
>
> Marty
greek_philosophizer - 19 Apr 2005 19:57 GMT
All very interesting...

Now I have to go buy some wine to
personally verify all this....

.
Ernie Sparks - 24 Apr 2005 01:24 GMT
> > PS.  By the time it gets to Britain it's at least double, if not triple
:-(
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Marty

Sure, but how often do they "catch" ice wine. And it was $50 a bottle in
Germany in the early 60s.
Martin Joseph - 24 Apr 2005 19:43 GMT
>> On 2005-04-17 13:47:08 -0700, "Dori A Schmetterling" <ng@nospam.co.uk>
> said:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Sure, but how often do they "catch" ice wine. And it was $50 a bottle in
> Germany in the early 60s.

Wow!  My host who gave me some to drink didn't mention it was so dear...
Ernie Sparks - 26 Apr 2005 05:53 GMT
> >> On 2005-04-17 13:47:08 -0700, "Dori A Schmetterling" <ng@nospam.co.uk>
> > said:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Wow!  My host who gave me some to drink didn't mention it was so dear...

Can you possibly introduce me to your host?
marlinspike - 17 Apr 2005 23:01 GMT
Yeah, his problem sounds to be a ball joint thats about to go too
seeing as how he mentioned one of the wheels moves side to side. Wheels
shouldn't move side to side at all, that's in fact how to test for bad
ball joints.
Conrad - 18 Apr 2005 00:21 GMT
> Yeah, his problem sounds to be a ball joint thats about to go too
> seeing as how he mentioned one of the wheels moves side to side. Wheels
> shouldn't move side to side at all, that's in fact how to test for bad
> ball joints.

OK, now I'm confused. I was thinking that the tie-rods, which are
connected to the steering box, controlled the side-to-side (i.e.
steering) motion. I was also thinking that the upper and lower ball
joints allowed the wheel to pivot up and down on the control arms,
(vertical suspension movement) while allowing the tie-rods to move
the wheel assemblies left and right. My thinking was that rocking
the wheel at the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions tested the
tie-rods more than the ball joints and that grabbing the wheel at
the 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock positions (OK, allowing for a few
degrees of caster) was more definitive for ball joints.

Of course, if the wheel bearings are shot/loose the wheel will
probably wiggle no matter where you grab it.

Any front end-wizards have a take on this?

Conrad
Ernie Sparks - 24 Apr 2005 01:28 GMT
> Yeah, his problem sounds to be a ball joint thats about to go too
> seeing as how he mentioned one of the wheels moves side to side. Wheels
> shouldn't move side to side at all, that's in fact how to test for bad
> ball joints.

OK. OK. How did we get from wines to cars? Oh........wrong
thread..............
 
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