Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / May 2005
Recommend MB?
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Gr Tac - 04 Sep 2003 03:43 GMT I'm considering buying either 2004 CLK500 or 2004 ES500 in the near future, and it'll be my first Mercedes. Just wanted all you guys' opinion about Mercedes. Is it worth the money spent on an MB? I kept hearing and reading about MB many current owners having electrical problems with theirs.
Thanks for the input. Greg T (Florida)
Harvey Louzon - 04 Sep 2003 07:21 GMT > I'm considering buying either 2004 CLK500 or 2004 ES500 in the near future, > and it'll be my first Mercedes. Just wanted all you guys' opinion about [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks for the input. > Greg T (Florida) This forum is mostly for curmudgeons who own older MBs (the ones that are 'durable' but not 'reliable') and look down their noses at those of us who own the newer models (which, they say, are neither 'durable' nor 'reliable'). You would be far better off looking at the MB forum at www.edmunds.com if you are interested in a newer car. Stay away from mbworld.org (or whatever it is). Lots of snooty people over there who spend most of their time telling others about their (non-vehicle) possessions.
h
Classic Car Fair - 04 Sep 2003 07:43 GMT > > I'm considering buying either 2004 CLK500 or 2004 ES500 in the near > future, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > h Huh. Compared to all my former roundies, the 114 is quite a modern car.
Dori Schmetterling - 10 Sep 2003 14:10 GMT Where does that put me?
1993 190E -- curmudgeon? Semi-curmudgeon as it's only 10 yr old?
2001 CLK 320 Cab -- non-curmudgeon?
:-) DAS -- --- NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling" --- .................................
> This forum is mostly for curmudgeons who own older MBs (the ones that are > 'durable' but not 'reliable') and look down their noses at those of us who > own the newer models (which, they say, are neither 'durable' nor > 'reliable'). You would be far better off looking at the MB forum at .................................
Juergen . - 04 Sep 2003 08:15 GMT > I'm considering buying either 2004 CLK500 > or 2004 ES500 What exactly do you mean with ES500? E-Class 500? S-Class 500?
Juergen
Camille - 04 Sep 2003 08:42 GMT Thank you Juergen, I was confused also. Thought maybe it was another of those European models but apparently not... Hope he gets a good deal, whatever it is. Dale
>>I'm considering buying either 2004 CLK500 >>or 2004 ES500 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Juergen Juergen . - 04 Sep 2003 10:15 GMT > Thank you Juergen, I was confused also. > Thought maybe it was another of > those European models but apparently not... No such European model.
From the designation _ES500_ it could be an E 500 (sedan), S 500 (sedan) or an E-Class S=station wagon 500 (S211), but as he posted from Florida it can be the first two only.
> Hope he gets a good deal, whatever it is. > Dale I hope that, too.
Juergen
Ric - 04 Sep 2003 13:47 GMT > I'm considering buying either 2004 CLK500 or 2004 ES500 in the near future, > and it'll be my first Mercedes. Just wanted all you guys' opinion about [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks for the input. > Greg T (Florida) I would sincerely recommend that you don't buy a Mercedes. I have had one for two years and despite twenty five visits back to the dealer it still rattles and creaks worse than a twenty five year old Morris Marina. It is out of warranty now, so I took it to a BMW dealer to trade in against a BMW. They refused to take it off my hands as it would be too difficult to resell!
I know anecdotes don't make data, and that some people are happy with their cars. But before you make a decision, try and buy recent consumer surveys such as JD Power or "Which" magaazine. You will see that my experience is not unique - Mercedes has plummeted down the rankings in both surveys and is near the bottom of the lists.
Richard J. Sexton (At work) - 04 Sep 2003 14:36 GMT >> I'm considering buying either 2004 CLK500 or 2004 ES500 in the near >future, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >rattles and creaks worse than a twenty five year old Morris Marina. It is >out of warranty now, so I took it to a BMW dealer to trade in against a BMW. The BMW isn't nearly as well engineered. They're great cars to be sure, but not built the same. Spend some time fixing both and you'll understand.
Get the CLK.
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Ric - 04 Sep 2003 15:49 GMT > The BMW isn't nearly as well engineered. They're great cars to > be sure, but not built the same. Spend some time fixing both and you'll > understand. old MBs were well built - the new ones are not.
greek_philosophizer - 04 Sep 2003 15:34 GMT > I would sincerely recommend that you don't buy a Mercedes. I have had one > for two years and despite twenty five visits back to the dealer it still [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > not unique - Mercedes has plummeted down the rankings in both surveys and is > near the bottom of the lists. Which model and dealer?
Ric - 04 Sep 2003 15:55 GMT > Which model and dealer? All models were bad - but especially C Class, M Class and V-Class. Unfortunately neither JDPower nor Which magazine put their reports on the internet - you need to go out and buy them. But if you do a bit of googling on "Mercedes Quality JD Power "Which Magazine" etc you should find references to these reports on other sites. The Which Magazine report only came out a few days ago so not much yet on the internet about it.
Incidentally, all the German makes suffered badly in the Which report, though Mercedes was the worst (below VW, below Opel, and way below BMW).
Jap cars got the best marks for customer satisfaction - particularly Toyota/Lexus and Honda.
Oliver Keating - 04 Sep 2003 16:04 GMT > I'm considering buying either 2004 CLK500 or 2004 ES500 in the near future, > and it'll be my first Mercedes. Just wanted all you guys' opinion about > Mercedes. Is it worth the money spent on an MB? I kept hearing and reading > about MB many current owners having electrical problems with theirs. How about an Audi A8? I hear it beats the S class hands down for quality. Its a shame that Yanks probably won't get the V8 diesel
> Thanks for the input. > Greg T (Florida) WPWise - 04 Sep 2003 18:26 GMT >> I'm considering buying either 2004 CLK500 or 2004 ES500 in the near >future, >> and it'll be my first Mercedes. Just wanted all you guys' opinion about >> Mercedes. Is it worth the money spent on an MB? My 2003 Acura TL-S is much better than mt 2003 MB C320. If the Benz wasn't a company car, I'd be driving the Acura.
Scott D - 05 Sep 2003 02:38 GMT What makes MB buyers out of other car buyers cannot be found in brochures, surveys and consumer magazines. It is the overall experience. Ask to test drive each of them for a long weekend. Run the interstate for hours at 90+, hit the back roads, and a charge through late afternoon Florida downpour. Go out to a nice restaurant and show it off to your neighbors. Then you'll know what to do.
Scott D
> I'm considering buying either 2004 CLK500 or 2004 ES500 in the near future, > and it'll be my first Mercedes. Just wanted all you guys' opinion about [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks for the input. > Greg T (Florida) Ric - 05 Sep 2003 09:33 GMT > What makes MB buyers out of other car buyers cannot be found in brochures, > surveys and consumer magazines. It is the overall experience. Ask to test > drive each of them for a long weekend. Run the interstate for hours at 90+, > hit the back roads, and a charge through late afternoon Florida downpour. > Go out to a nice restaurant and show it off to your neighbors. Then you'll > know what to do. I think of MB like Jaguars used to be in the 1970s. Nice to look at but hopelessly unreliable. Every time I see one on the road, I don't feel envy I just think "you poor sod, how often have you been back to the dealer with that?"
Dori Schmetterling - 10 Sep 2003 14:13 GMT Not twice, not once, but 'nonce' (unscheduled visits)
(though only 12 000 miles in 2 years).
Once I had to have the computer reset on the electric window as it wouldn't go back to closed position after closing passenger door. (I have a cab.)
DAS -- --- NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling" ---
> > What makes MB buyers out of other car buyers cannot be found in brochures, > > surveys and consumer magazines. It is the overall experience. Ask to test [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > just think "you poor sod, how often have you been back to the dealer with > that?" Vetluver - 05 Sep 2003 02:56 GMT > I'm considering buying either 2004 CLK500 or 2004 ES500 in the near future, > and it'll be my first Mercedes. Just wanted all you guys' opinion about [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks for the input. > Greg T (Florida) Greg, I have had MB's since 93. That includes a 400E, E320 and a E500 and can truly say that I have enjoyed all of them more than any other cars that I have owned except for my Vette roadster. They seem only to be getting better. Regardless of what others say my new E500 is the best of them all. It's extremely fast, gets out of the hole quicker than any MB I have every driven including a Porche tuned special edition 500E in 92. My Vette when new in 89 would run the quarter in 14.3. The new E500 will run it in 14-14.2 depending on what car mag you believe.
I and my wife have also owned numerous BMW's and like them too, but have had significant problems with them. My Dad, brother and sister have owned 8 different MB in the last 15 years and all have been excellent cars. My niece got a BMW 745i on my suggestion after I test drove one. In the last year they have had so many problems with it that her husband wants to get out of the lease early. I felt terrible when she said that I had gotten her to buy a "LEMON". He is going to trade it for a S500. It will be his 4th S.
If you want the best vehicle made, get a MB. You won't go back. Don't believe every thing you read. Most publications are paid by car manufacturers so they aren't unbiased or have a hidden agenda. Try the cars out and see which one you like the best. Talk is cheap.
BTW the CLK seems to be a less rigid chassis and has less room than the E. It looks a little more "sporty" than the 4 door E.
Rob
Ric - 05 Sep 2003 09:34 GMT "Vetluver" <vetluver@nospam.jam.rr.com> wrote in message news:a3S5b.10596> If you want the best vehicle made, get a MB. You won't go back.
Well I bought a brand new MB and will never buy another one. I consider my purchase of it to be the worst financial mistake of my life.
greek_philosophizer - 05 Sep 2003 15:43 GMT > "Vetluver" <vetluver@nospam.jam.rr.com> wrote in message news:a3S5b.10596> > If you want the best vehicle made, get a MB. You won't go back. > > Well I bought a brand new MB and will never buy another one. I consider my > purchase of it to be the worst financial mistake of my life. Which year/model did you buy?
Did you buy it new?
If they could not fix it why did you not sue?
.
Ric - 05 Sep 2003 19:46 GMT "greek_philosophizer" <greek_philosophizer@hotmail.com> wrote in message >
> Which year/model did you buy? C200K sport coupe
> Did you buy it new? >Yes > If they could not fix it > why did you not sue? Because of the huge cost that would involve. My employer moved me from Germany to France shortly after taking delivery, so I had to take my car with me. MB Deutschland told me I should sue MB France as I now live in France, MB France say it is MB Deutschland's responsibility because I bought the car there. I would probably have to take legal action in both countries. It is just not worth it. It will be cheaper just to sell my car and forget the whole sorry episode - and obviously never buy another MB.
I actually have a letter from Herr Stavenow, from DC Stuttgart, who has written that I do not qualify for an exchange car because I "exported" my car from Germany to France. So the lesson is don't buy an MB if you are likely to move country in EU!
Martin Joseph - 24 May 2005 21:26 GMT > "greek_philosophizer" <greek_philosophizer@hotmail.com> wrote in message > >> Which year/model did you buy? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > France, MB France say it is MB Deutschland's responsibility because I bought > the car there. WHY WOULD YOU ASK THEM? You obviously have more issues then just your car.
The country where you bought the car is the appropriate venue in my opinion.
If you really feel like you were cheated, contact an attorney.
> I would probably have to take legal action in both countries. This is nonsense.
> It is just not worth it. It will be cheaper just to sell my car and forget > the whole sorry episode - and obviously never buy another MB. That is probably true.
> I actually have a letter from Herr Stavenow, from DC Stuttgart, who has > written that I do not qualify for an exchange car because I "exported" my > car from Germany to France. So the lesson is don't buy an MB if you are > likely to move country in EU! That is bunk. Don't take no for an answer. They owe you something...
You paid for it! Marty
Manfred Weber - 17 Sep 2003 15:09 GMT > "Vetluver" <vetluver@nospam.jam.rr.com> wrote in message news:a3S5b.10596> > If you want the best vehicle made, get a MB. You won't go back. > > Well I bought a brand new MB and will never buy another one. I consider my > purchase of it to be the worst financial mistake of my life. Full ACK! Unforunately I have made the same mistake with a SLK. In my whole life I have never owned such a shitty car. It's more days a year in the service than on the road.
In this life I will own 2 merc. The first and the last one!!!!
M.
Gerald G. McGeorge - 17 Sep 2003 15:37 GMT I've had three W210s, the latest provided by MBNA after a dealer wrecked the previous one TWICE while it was in for service. All three have been superb vehicles, however dealer service has not only been disappointing, it's been downright anxiety-provoking. Every time this latest car has gone in for simple "A" or "B" services the dealers have broken it in one way or another. Good thing the service was free! The lease is up in 5 months and after my last bad experience MB has lost my business forever. Not worth the aggravation.
> > "Vetluver" <vetluver@nospam.jam.rr.com> wrote in message news:a3S5b.10596> > > If you want the best vehicle made, get a MB. You won't go back. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > M. greek_philosophizer - 17 Sep 2003 17:47 GMT > I've had three W210s, the latest provided by MBNA after a dealer wrecked the > previous one TWICE while it was in for service. All three have been superb [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > last bad experience MB has lost my business forever. Not worth the > aggravation. I think it would be interesting if you named each dealer and how they damaged your vehicle.
Is service this bad in Germany? Maybe the USA dealers should bribe German techs to come to the USA to work?
.
Frank Kemper - 17 Sep 2003 21:08 GMT > Is service this bad in Germany? Maybe the USA > dealers should bribe German techs to come to the > USA to work? Since 1989 I have driven cars made by Ford, VW, Mercedes, Renault, BMW and Citroen in Germany. The best service I received was provided by Mercedes, and if I compare the overall performance to BMW and VW, Mercedes was not overly expensive either. By far my worst experiences were with the Renault workshop. One week ago I bought an '94 Citroen Xantia, and I cannot say anything about the service quality here, as I did not have any reaso to bring the car to the shop yet.
Frank
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Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana
Dori Schmetterling - 18 Sep 2003 10:06 GMT How are you getting on with your Citroen?
When I went on a trip recently and hired a car I was expecting a Citroen but, when I got there, I found that the rental company had sold its Citroen fleet and gave me a Mazda 323 instead. Drove it for 1000 km. As expected, it was uneventful, as it should be, but the appearance of the car was BORING. The earlier 323s were so much nicer.
The last Citroen I drove was that XM in a test drive some years ago.
I thought Citroens are not very reliable.
DAS
-- --- NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling" ---
> > Is service this bad in Germany? Maybe the USA > > dealers should bribe German techs to come to the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana Gerald G. McGeorge - 18 Sep 2003 14:53 GMT Back in the 60s Citroens were imported into the US by heavens knows who (surely the poor Distributor ended up on public welfare). My girlfriend's Dad got her one to use at College. I refused to be seen in the thing unless I was wearing a Nixon mask or other timely disguise.
Someone she loaned it to (who must have been desperate to get somewhere) drove it into a wall or something because it's brake pedal was shaped like a mushroom and couldn't be found by the unsuspecting driver. That was the end of the Citroen and our relationship was back to normal.
We particularly liked the hydraulic "active suspension" that raised & lowered the car.. Decades before its time, it was more likely to do it by itself when you least expected it, or to lift one wheel off the ground for no apparent reason. When it did that I expected it to relieve itself on a tree like any other dog!
> How are you getting on with your Citroen? > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > > > Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana Frank Kemper - 18 Sep 2003 23:08 GMT > How are you getting on with your Citroen? I bought it almost 4 weeks ago (signed the contract), but I picked it up just one week ago, because the dealer was 60 miles away and I had a friend drive me there. Befor that the dealer had two weeks of coroprate holiday (which did not bother me too much, because I bought the car mainly for bad weather and long range trips, so I do not need it in the summer time).
Okay, I got the papers and the license plates, and I finally got the car last saturday. It is a '94 Citroen Xantia 2.0i VSX with a 2 litre 4 cylinder engine made by Peugeot. The engine has 121 HP, the performance figures are approx 11 sec acceleration from 0-60 mph and approx 120 mph top speed. The VXS version has a lot of features which may seem completely ordinary to nowadays US sedans, but were quite rare back then with a smaller middle class car: Power Steering/Windows/Mirrors/Seats, power locks with remote control, 4 speed auto gearbox, alloy wheels, ABS, a/c with automatic temperature control and a nice fm stereo with cassette and remote control buttons in the steering wheel (it even has an Aux input socket, so I can plug in my MP3 player). The condition of the car is very good (almost like new), it has only 85.000 km (some 52.000 miles) on the clock and is one owner from new. The owner is 76 years old, and the service history is flawless. I got the car together with one year of warranty for all major technical components and a set of winter tires on steel rims for 4.300 Euro (4.800 $).
Driving the Xantia is totally different to my BMW E30. The Citroen offers far more room in the cockpit, it has some kind of cab-forward design. Compared to my BMW, the engine is quite rough and not very impressive - you clearly notice the missing 50 HP. OTOH the ride is extremely smooth. The body has a drag coefficient of 0.30, and during travel at 100 mph you do not hear much wind noise. But the best thing with this car is its hydropmeumatic suspension.
DEAR MERCEDES ENTHUSIASTS, PLEASE START READING HERE AS IT STARTS TO BECOME ON TOPIC HERE (thank you for your patience).
The HP suspension, which was invented by Citroen and introduced to market in 1955, has been used also by Mercedes (under Citroen license). AFAIK it was available with the Mercedes W108 300 SEL 6.3, with the W116 450 SEL 6.9 and the W126 560 SEL. The system uses bowls, which are half-filled with nitrogen and half filled with hydraulic oil. An oil pump carries as much oil to every bowl as it is needed to hold the car in an upright position. The susension quality really is outstanding! Besides this you can choose the ground clearance after your needs. I had my old mother in the car, and in order to make it easier for her to enter the car, I simply pushed the car up by five inches (looks funny). Early HP systems (including those used by Mercedes) had the strange effect, that the car sunk to the ground as soon as you switched off the engine. This is the reason why an old 560 SEL often looks like both axles are broken. My Xantia has some valves which prevent the car from sinking too far without engine. My Xantia also has the Hydractive II system, which has more suspension bowls than the usual 4 (for each wheel). This system is able to adjust the damping according to the actual dynamic status of the body. The system is the same as it was used in the bigger Citroen XM. To illustrate the outstanding suspension quality of these cars, this story may be helpful: When the development of the Mercedes W140 S-class entered final stage, Mr. Breitschwerdt, the head of passenger car development, showed up in a Citroen XM. He showed this car to his coworkers and made clear that its quality of ride was the standard to be met by the new S- Class Mercedes. So currently I drive a car with one of the best suspensions of the entire world for less than 5 grand!
Drawbacks? Well, the seat rails are too short and the headrests are also (french drivers are small drivers). I bought some additional upholstery for the headrests, and currently a mechanic is building some longer rails for me. To get them street legal may be a problem, but the fantastic citroen community in Germany provided me with a copy of a certificate, which explains that these rails are legal...
> I thought Citroens are not very reliable. Well, compared to a 1980 Mercedes 240 D, any Citroen of that time is just a pile of junk. But from what I've heard, nowadays Mercedes cars aren't built like tanks anymore, and the Xantia has quite a high reputation of being a reliable car, at least compared to oter Citroens. Well, my new redwine red Xantia has made its first 450 kilometers without any breakdown. I think this definitely is a good start;-)
Frank
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Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana
Dori Schmetterling - 19 Sep 2003 10:27 GMT Enjoy the car but drive defensively. It doesn't crash that well... :-( http://www.euroncap.com/results.htm
Click on Large Family Cars category.
DAS -- --- NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling" ---
> > How are you getting on with your Citroen? > > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > Time Flies Like An Arrow - Fruit Flies Like A Banana Frank Kemper - 19 Sep 2003 18:18 GMT "Dori Schmetterling" <ng@nospam.co.uk> hat in Betrag news:3f6acc2f$0$241 $cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com dies gedichtet:
> Enjoy the car but drive defensively. It doesn't crash that well... :-( I assume that the passive safety of this car is a real progess, compared to my E30 cabriolet;-)
Frank
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Dori Schmetterling - 17 Sep 2003 17:20 GMT So, what will you have next? A Chrysler Crossfire? ;-)
DAS -- --- NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling" ---
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> In this life I will own 2 merc. The first and the last one!!!! > > M. J Oat - 05 Sep 2003 21:29 GMT do you keep any of your MB over 8 yrs as a daily vehicle ?
> > I'm considering buying either 2004 CLK500 or 2004 ES500 in the near > future, [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Rob Vetluver - 05 Sep 2003 22:15 GMT >do you keep any of your MB over 8 yrs as a daily vehicle ? My wife drove the 400E for 6 years. The 96 E320 was bought new and is still in the family with 72K miles. My daughter turned 16 so I made her take it even though she wanted a Honda.....After driving it for 4 mos she loves it. Her friends do to. I got my E500 in December and have 10k on it. So far so good. I've had a CD and phone problem but nothing major.
My Dad trades each time there is a platform change. His are the ones you want to buy used. He puts less than 5K miles a year on them. The dealer usually has a buyer lined up for his cars when they are turned in. He's hot for a new SL500, his is a 97 but with the new styling he's just biding his time for the initial sales surge to drop so they will deal with him.
The rest of the family lease and trade every 3 to 4 years.
Rob
Camille - 06 Sep 2003 01:15 GMT We have driven MBs since 1989. We still have our 1988 560SL and we'll never sell it. It's our baby. Since then we've had a 1994 E320 Coupe and loved it. A 1996 S500 Coupe and loved it, and a 2000 CL500 Coupe and loved it. Recently a local knuckle-dragger failed to get his Jeep all the way into "Park" when he stepped out of his vehicle (could only manage "Reverse") and it propelled itself backwards across the parking lot and slammed into our gorgeous 2000 CL500. Well it turns out there are only a few body shops in the U.S. that can work on these cars so we are currently planning to ship our beautiful CL to California for repairs (from Alaska, and MB is paying for shipping). Bottom line: Of course MBs are worth "it". What other cars turn your head like any model of MB? Are they expensive? Of course they are! But they are worth every penny. We have always purchased Starmark coverage for our vehicles and it has always paid for itself. We just took our CL500 in for the "B" service and MB paid for the entire visit, including a new instrument cluster that was acting up. Buy MB, you'll never go back!!! If you don't agree you are clearly lurking in the wrong newsgroup! Dale (not Camille) 1988 560SL 1996 S500 Coupe 2000 CL500C current negotiating for a 2003 CL500C
>>do you keep any of your MB over 8 yrs as a daily vehicle ? > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Rob Dori Schmetterling - 10 Sep 2003 14:19 GMT Bloody lucky daughter! Can I be your son...?.. A 16-year-old with an E320!
She should get a 3-yr-old Daihatsu Charade to stop her being spoiled....
:-) DAS -- --- NB: To reply directly replace "nospam" with "schmetterling" --- ............................
> My wife drove the 400E for 6 years. The 96 E320 was bought new and is still > in the family with 72K miles. My daughter turned 16 so I made her take it > even though she wanted a Honda.....After driving it for 4 mos she loves it. ...........................
Martin Joseph - 24 May 2005 21:34 GMT > Bloody lucky daughter! Can I be your son...?.. > A 16-year-old with an E320! > > She should get a 3-yr-old Daihatsu Charade to stop her being spoiled.... Of course if she bumped into anything there will be the funeral bills to consider. :~(
I would also like to add to this thread, that as one of the official "curmudgeons" here, I love my 1986 190e, which I bought over a year ago , with 105,000 miles on the odometer, and have driven a trouble free 10,000 miles since.
It remains a nice comfortable (gutless yes) and SOLID vehicle as it approaches it's 20th birthday.
The Gentlemen who compared his MB to an old Morris, either has memory issues or was joking.
Marty
Dori A Schmetterling - 24 May 2005 23:28 GMT It's nice if someone picks up an almost-two-year-old thread... especially if it's one's own...
:-) DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
>> Bloody lucky daughter! Can I be your son...?.. >> A 16-year-old with an E320! [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Marty Martin Joseph - 26 May 2005 17:35 GMT > It's nice if someone picks up an almost-two-year-old thread... > especially if it's one's own... > > :-) > DAS Woops, my newsreader was set to sort "unread" to the top rather then by date...
Blush.
This wasn't my thread though, i wasn't yet a mercedes guy when this thread was posted...
Marty
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