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Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / December 2005Problems starting 85 300td?
I've been having tons of problems with my poor car (mostly issues with getting it started). We changed the oil, using rotella this time (didn't know we weren't supposed to use the $4 a gallon no-name from the parts store) and that helped. Replaced the battery and that helped. Now cycle the glow plugs 2-3 times and that helps. Unfortunately it's still hard to start, and it looks like the starter is beginning to fail. It will turn over a few times and then just buzz. After several attempts it usually turns over long enough to start up. While trying to start I'm giving it about 1/2 to 3/4 throttle. I've been told that when I'm trying to get it started it's okay to crank it for up to a minute - but I only began having problems with the starter since the cold weather/long cranking. Am I harming the starter? Also, I notice that the car is much easier to start when it has been started recently (within 8 hours or so) rather than sitting for a few days. There are times when I don't need to use the car for up to a week. Is it bad for the car to be used only once or twice a week? And, is it better or worse to try to take it out 3-4 times a week but only for a two minute drive across town? I know very short trips aren't great for the car. Here are the other issues I know I need to fix or keep an eye on: two leaking fuel injectors and leaky diesel prime pump, turbo beginning to leak oil, block heater not functional, possibly replace the glow plugs (they haven't been individually tested to confirm all working). I don't know how to prioritize these issues . . I'd love guidance and suggestions. I've always driven new japanese cars so the elderly MB diesel is rather baffling to me. Thank you, Hannah -- > I've been having tons of problems with my poor car (mostly issues with > getting it started). We changed the oil, using rotella this time (didn't [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Hannah > -- Glow plugs are quite essential for cold starts. If your engine is warm or warmish after eight hours, it doesn't need the glow plugs, the engine is warm enough. Check them and replace if necessary. Difficult cold starts in cold weather usually are to do with glow plug problems, (or, if it is very cold, with diesel clogging up). Glowing them twice or thrice helps in cold weather. You should not need the throttle for starting, it is enough to adjust the idle using the knob on the dashboard and turning it counterclockwise all the way before you start. Press the throttle half way before you turn it though. Leaking fuel injectors: are the injectors leaking, or are the rubber hoses leading to and from the injectors leaking? A leaking diesel pump is not good as in: expensive to replace. Does the engine run smoothly when it is warm? Excessive starting is not good and after starting for a minute the starter should be allowed to cool down. The buzz from the starter is the starter relais shutting the starter down. The relais can be cleaned or fixed to solve that problem. I wouldn't recommend driving short trips around town, however pleasureable: cold starts are not good for the engine and after 2 minutes your engine isn't warm yet. I use my 1980 200d also intermittently, but I have no problem getting it started. It should be no problem for a diesel. Your turbocharger uses oil from the engine, so if it is bleeding, check the oil level more regularly and get it fixed, probably some leaking gasket. Hope this helps. >> I've been having tons of problems with my poor car (mostly issues with >> getting it started). We changed the oil, using rotella this time (didn't [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > all the way before you start. Press the throttle half way before you > turn it though. Where is this idle knob?? I believe that in the manual it says to give full throttle until the car starts. My mechanic (not a MB expert - small town) said to give it 1/2. > Leaking fuel injectors: are the injectors leaking, or are the rubber > hoses leading to and from the injectors leaking? I don't know what part is leaking, this is just what the mechanic told me when I picked the car up last week after he replaced the battery. > A leaking diesel pump is not good as in: expensive to replace. This is the primer pump that's leaking - I was quoted about $20 for the part and told I would probably be able to replace it myself. > Does the engine run smoothly when it is warm? Yes, it drives beautifully. During warm weather it started in a second or two as well. > Excessive starting is not good and after starting for a minute the > starter should be allowed to cool down. The buzz from the starter is the > starter relais shutting the starter down. The relais can be cleaned or > fixed to solve that problem. I'll look into that - thanks! > I wouldn't recommend driving short trips around town, however > pleasureable: cold starts are not good for the engine and after 2 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Hope this helps. > "Govert Schipperheijn" <gms2@XXCXplanetXXCX.nl> wrote in message > > You should not need the throttle for starting, it is enough to adjust [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > throttle until the car starts. My mechanic (not a MB expert - small town) > said to give it 1/2. Perhaps MB didn't fit the US version with this knob, but it is located on the dashboard, behind the steering wheel, on the left. If you turn it, it produces the same effect as pressing the throttle a little bit. My (German) manual says to turn this knob fully to the left before a cold start. > > Leaking fuel injectors: are the injectors leaking, or are the rubber > > hoses leading to and from the injectors leaking? > > I don't know what part is leaking, this is just what the mechanic told me > when I picked the car up last week after he replaced the battery. In another post it was suggested it was bio diesel that damaged the rubber fuel hoses. That can happen. > > A leaking diesel pump is not good as in: expensive to replace. > > This is the primer pump that's leaking - I was quoted about $20 for the part > and told I would probably be able to replace it myself. I thought the fuel injection pump was leaking. >I've been having tons of problems with my poor car (mostly issues with >getting it started). (Snip) Where are you located? What sort of temperatures are you coping with? Have the glow plugs checked. But even more important, see to it that your battery is fully charged and has enough capacity to crank the engine at high speed for as long as it takes to start. Our cold weather (New York City) failures have always been the result of not enough juice in the battery. Indeed, when we know it's going to be very cold -- less than 10 F -- we take the battery out of the car (which is parked on the street) and bring it into the apartment to keep it warm and charge it fully. We also have a back up booster pack, which is what the road service guy uses. 1981 300SD "Der Klunker" >>I've been having tons of problems with my poor car (mostly issues with >>getting it started). > > (Snip) > > Where are you located? What sort of temperatures are you coping with? I'm in NC. The coldest we've been dealing with is in the 20's overnight, 30's-40's during the day. > Have the glow plugs checked. But even more important, see to it that your > battery is fully charged and has enough capacity to crank the engine at [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > 1981 300SD "Der Klunker" Would it work to put a heating pad around the battery a few hours before starting? I'm guessing this would be totally insufficient for warming the engine . . any idea how to troubleshoot a non-working block heater? Thank you! The starter is crying for power. Charge the battery, either with a charger or a one hour drive. When were the engine's valves (intake and exhaust) last adjusted? (Unadjusted valves leak and that means lower compression and harder starting of this compression engine.) Does the glow plug light: Light prior to starting? Blink after starting? Don't depress the accelerator when starting. The car can stand for any period with a fully charged battery; it doesn't need to be driven. The current use is about the worst you can do to it, IMHO. Either drive it or store it. The fuel leaks are not the problem, they just make the car reek like a skunk. If it won't crank over easily something between the battery and starter is screwed up. You said it was a new battery. Is the battery being charged? If you only take a very short trip once or twice a week, that could be the problem. It takes a good deal of energy to start the car and a short trip of a couple miles will not recharge it. I'd put a charger on it, make sure it's fully charged then see what happens. It should crank over easily, as long as we're not talking extreme, sub zero weather. Other possibilites are corroded cable/terminals from the battery to the starter or a bad starter. If you have some bad glow plugs, that could make it more difficult or impossible to start, but it should still crank easily. The short trips you asked about are definitely not good for the car. When you don't allow the engine to reach full temp and run for long enough, water vapor condenses everywhere from the crankcase to the exhaust system. If you drive it till it's hot and then run it for awhile, the water vapor gets driven off. Left inside, it does nasty stuff. news:1135720250.925955.300630@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > If it won't crank over easily something between the battery and starter > is screwed up. You said it was a new battery. Is the battery being [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > awhile, the water vapor gets driven off. Left inside, it does nasty > stuff. Gah. That sounds bad. I'll have to take more shopping trips into the big city, eh? Let's see if I can convince my husband of that reasoning . . The battery is new but it sounds like it just isn't being charged enough. When the battery was replaced the car began to turn over much more quickly than before, so I assume that the old battery was in fact shagged out. It still turns over quickly but the cranking can go on for 10-30 seconds before the engine really catches (or it stops turning over and buzzes). Take some long drives, replace the glow plugs, and check out the connections between battery and starter? Hannah > The starter is crying for power. Charge the battery, either with a charger > or a one hour drive. I guess I'll have to take a road trip! The most the car is driven is about 30 minutes, wait a couple of hours and then 30 minutes back. Sounds like I need to drive more! > When were the engine's valves (intake and exhaust) last adjusted? > (Unadjusted valves leak and that means lower compression and harder > starting of this compression engine.) I purchased the car in July. I know it had a service the previous March but I don't know if they adjusted the valves. Can I have this done at an average mechanic's shop or do I need to find a MB specialist? > Does the glow plug light: Light prior to starting? Blink after starting? Glow plug light lights for about 10-15 seconds. The mechanic said he noticed that after the light goes off, the plugs are still charging for an additional 10 seconds so I wait through that period until cycling again. > Don't depress the accelerator when starting. Is there a reason not to do this? It's what the manual says to do in temps under 30 degrees, if I remember correctly. > The car can stand for any period with a fully charged battery; it doesn't > need to be driven. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The fuel leaks are not the problem, they just make the car reek like a > skunk. Yeah. Once I started running some bio in it the leaks popped up - and now that it leaks, I'm hesitant to use bio till I get current leaks fixed! Stinky petro. Thanks for your help, Hannah After reading the various posts I'd say just drive it more. If that doesn't help have the alternator's output checked. If weak, its diodes (only) can be replaced for not too much $. The glow plugs seem to work as designed so that's good. The block heater is located on the passenger side of the engine, below the exhaust and ahead of the starter. If it can't be easily repaired I'd say forget about it for removing it after 20 years may be impossible. If you can't frequently drive the car to keep the battery charged, buy a modern (electronic) charger that will keep the battery fully charged. Then a block heater is moot. Using Biodiesel is a nice thought but 100% Bio (Bio100) dissolves all the old deposits in the fuel system and, now we learn, causes leaks in the old fuel hoses too! Bio20 is supposed not to do these things. The leaks won't fix themselves. Suggest you replace all the "bleed off hoses" with new fabric covered "bleed off hose" and replace the hand primer pump as its rubber seal is gone. Pump costs about $20 on line, bleed off hose about $15 per meter (you cut to length) on line. Just cut off the old hose using a utility knife, one segment at a time, cut new to that length and push onto the barbed fittings. Stub hose at #5 injector contains a small steel plug that should go into a new stub hose. You can do this, wear gloves so you don't smell of diesel. Yes the manual suggests stepping on the accelerator when cranking a cold engine. The contrary thought is that the cold fuel quenches the hot glow plug and so makes ignition harder. I, myself, don't step on it and my 25 year old engine fires immediately. Hannah, there are no shortcuts to these cars. Parts and maintenance sometimes seem horribly expensive BUT afterward the car performs reliably, as it should. Cheap fixes almost always come back to bite one - these are false economy. > Using Biodiesel is a nice thought but 100% Bio (Bio100) dissolves all the > old deposits in the fuel system and, now we learn, causes leaks in the old [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > as it should. Cheap fixes almost always come back to bite one - these are > false economy. I expected to see leaks as a result of the bio (hopefully won't have to replace the entire fuel system) but I will try to be more conscientious of using a blend rather than b100. I don't intend to shortchange this car on maintenance - I'm just trying to be more informed about what's going on. I don't want to simply send it off to the mechanic for mysterious repairs. If there is work I can do myself I'd like to do that, and I want to know why the car needs what it needs. I took the car for a long drive today so hopefully that will help with the battery/starter issues. I'm sure I'll be back with more questions!! Thanks so much, Hannah That drive is a good start. This site is a good one for "why does it do that or need this?" questions Tom P.S. Fix the bleed off lines - most leaks are from them. "T.G. Lambach Dec 28, 11:30 pm show options P.S. Fix the bleed off lines - most leaks are from them" Here's an interesting observation I made regarding these lines. I had the original fabric covered type that start weeping a few years after being put on. I knew they were weeping a bit, but wasn't in any hurry to replace them, as they did not appear to be leaking much at all. Occasionally I would smell a whiff of diesel when near the car, but that was about it. No, spots on the garage floor or evidence of any significant leakage. I assumed the tiny leak didn't amount to much at all. Then one day I decided to check my mileage. It had dropped to 20-21 MPG. At first I thought maybe this was a one time thing, but I checked it for several tanks and it was the same. I replaced the lines and voila!, back to 25MPG. So, this leak that looks very small can in fact have a significant effect on mileage. I would think most of the fuel must vaporize on the engine and disappear, so a lot more is leaking than you might think. I replaced mine with the plastic type fuel line. They have been on for about 4 years now, with no sign of any weeping. Further suggestion: Fuel injectors are made in two halves that screw together. They sometimes develop seepage at the joint. The repair is very simple, loosen, don't remove, the high pressure line to the top center then put a wrench onto the top half of the injector nozzle and tighten it - you may not even sense movement. Then snug the high pressure line - snug means only tight enough not to leak, too much and it WILL leak. Like a firm handshake, no more. Driving the car for 30 mins a trip should be enough to recharge the battery, if it starts normally. But if you're having trouble starting it, then cranking for an extended period may draw more power from the battery than can be replaced by a 30 min drive. It also depends if you're driving at night with the headlights on and a 300Watt stereo cranking. In any case, there is apparently an ongoing problem with the car starting readily. I'd charge the battery fully and see what happens. If it doesn't crank easily and start readily in NC this time of year, where a block heater should not be needed, something is wrong. I'd take it to a good shop with experience with MB diesels. Whatever it is will have to be addressed one way of the other before long. And it's better to figure it out than burn a starter out or get stuck with a tow cost. >Driving the car for 30 mins a trip should be enough to recharge the >battery, if it starts normally. (Snip) We had a situation recently where we had to call road service. It was a rainy day and we were doing a lot of stop and start shopping with lights, wipers and radio. Started every time except the last one after I sat in the car with the radio on, the wipers on a bit and the engine not running. Turned the key. Nothing. The booster was home. Road service started it at once. I had the mechanic check the battery and it's fine. It just wasn't getting charged that day. These are not very big batteries. Diesels take a lot of juice to start. A weak or not fully charged battery won't have enough oomph on a cold day. Just to contrast, the car battery weighs about 25 pounds. Almost the same size battery on the boat weighs 52 pounds. That's the engine starting battery. The house batteries are two weighing 165 pounbds each. 1981 300SD "Der Klunker" PS. Spend the money to keep that car ruunning. There is no better. news:reOdnXGDCIqLNS_eRVn-pg@bway.net... >>Driving the car for 30 mins a trip should be enough to recharge the >>battery, if it starts normally. > > (Snip) > > PS. Spend the money to keep that car ruunning. There is no better. I intend to keep this car on the road - it's wonderful!! I'm just trying to learn more about how it works and what the issues are so I can be informed rather than just signing checks to the mechanic. Hannah news:1135759415.533733.277270@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > In any case, there is apparently an ongoing problem with the car > starting readily. I'd charge the battery fully and see what happens. I took a long drive today so we'll see how it starts tomorrow. Thanks to everyone for all the input! Hannah news:Vr2dnevRMP2FrS_eRVn-ug@comcast.com... > Further suggestion: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > enough not to leak, too much and it WILL leak. Like a firm handshake, no > more. Thank you - I will do this (and will probably be back with more questions!) Hannah
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