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Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / March 2006

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1985 380SE Anti-Freeze and Transmittsion Fluid

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Haas - 06 Mar 2006 13:00 GMT
For my 1985se Mercedes, what type of anti-freeze should I use besides paying
the $28/gallon at the mercedes dealer. Also, what is the recommended
transmission fluid to use.

Thanks in advance.
Richard Sexton - 06 Mar 2006 17:44 GMT
>For my 1985se Mercedes, what type of anti-freeze should I use besides paying
>the $28/gallon at the mercedes dealer. Also, what is the recommended
>transmission fluid to use.

I'll scrimp on evrything, except the MB coolant. I use Mobil-1 ATF. Poeple
tell me Amsoil is better.

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        Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org 
Richard Sexton       | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

trader4@optonline.net - 07 Mar 2006 14:46 GMT
For antifreeze, ZereX G5 is preferred.  Right on the container it says
it's approved for MB and is used by MB for 2001 and newer vehicles.
For the record, I'm not convinced it makes any real significant
difference.  I've been using either Prestone or regular Zerex for 26
years now in my 300SD without any apparent problems.

A lot of these manufacturers go through recommending one product vs
another, or maybe more importantly using it for new cars.  Like BMW
used to use Mobil, now they recommend Castrol and have it right on the
fill cap.   I think this has more to do with marketing and what kind of
sweet deal BMW can get from a particular vendor.  In the case of
antifreeze, it's hard for me to imagine that there is something so
specific about the metal or environment in a MB as compared to all the
other cars out there that would require something special.
Haas - 08 Mar 2006 07:06 GMT
Thanks for the advice. Found the Zerex g05.

> For antifreeze, ZereX G5 is preferred.  Right on the container it says
> it's approved for MB and is used by MB for 2001 and newer vehicles.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> specific about the metal or environment in a MB as compared to all the
> other cars out there that would require something special.
Richard Sexton - 08 Mar 2006 13:13 GMT
>For antifreeze, ZereX G5 is preferred.  Right on the container it says
>it's approved for MB and is used by MB for 2001 and newer vehicles.
>For the record, I'm not convinced it makes any real significant
>difference.  I've been using either Prestone or regular Zerex for 26
>years now in my 300SD without any apparent problems.

That's cause your engine in iron. In an aluminum head engine
(many other Mercedes) this is VERY BAD ADVICE.

What makes the MB/Zerex coolant the one to use is the increadably
strong pH buffering. It's near impossible to chage the pH of this
stuff. Lessor coolants will have their pH lowered into an acid
solution and absolutely WILL corrode the head sometimes to the point
of rendering it useless.

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        Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org 
Richard Sexton       | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

trader4@optonline.net - 11 Mar 2006 11:56 GMT
> >For antifreeze, ZereX G5 is preferred.  Right on the container it says
> >it's approved for MB and is used by MB for 2001 and newer vehicles.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> solution and absolutely WILL corrode the head sometimes to the point
> of rendering it useless.

What is so special about the Mercedes aluminum?  Plenty of other cars
also use aluminum components in various parts of the cooling system.
In fact, I think my 300SD even has some aluminum in perhaps the
thermostat housing assembly?  Yet, these other cars have used a variety
of antifreezes and there is no warning on antifreeze products from any
of the major manufacturer's of antifreeze, AFAIK, to not use their
product in the presence of aluminum.  In fact, right on the label of
Prestone it says "for use in ALL makes and models of cars and light
duty trucks"   They would be pretty foolish to state that if it were
likely to result in failure, because by now, they would have had plenty
of lawsuits.

And just for the record, I didn;t give bad advice.   I told him what MB
recommends.  I just said I'm unconvinced that using another antifreeze
is gonna do damage.

> --
>          Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton       | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
Richard Sexton - 11 Mar 2006 23:14 GMT
>And just for the record, I didn;t give bad advice.   I told him what MB
>recommends.  I just said I'm unconvinced that using another antifreeze
>is gonna do damage.

You would be if you'd seen it. I have and there are a few people
who think twice before buying an MB with "evil green stuff" in the
rad.

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My only working email address is on my home page
Richard Sexton       | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

trader4@optonline.net - 11 Mar 2006 23:32 GMT
> >And just for the record, I didn;t give bad advice.   I told him what MB
> >recommends.  I just said I'm unconvinced that using another antifreeze
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Well, I just took a quick look at my 300SD and it sure does have
aluminum components in the cooling system.  The housing that surrounds
and holds the thermostat is all aluminum.   Over 20 years of regular
antifreeze and no evidence of any corrosion.  I pulled it apart about 3
years ago to put in a new thermostat, and it was fine.

What exactly is so different about MB aluminum that  requires such
special antifreeze?  Obviously a lot of other cars have aluminum
components and use std antifreeze with no problems.  I though MB was
supposed to know more about how to build things to last, but they can't
make aluminum at least as good as anyone else?
Richard Sexton - 12 Mar 2006 19:32 GMT
>What exactly is so different about MB aluminum that  requires such
>special antifreeze?

Nothing. MB is funny about wanting it to last 50 years though, others
are not as picky. To do this you need coolant that is pH buffered more
strongly and has stuff in it to assist in lubricating the water pump;
MB pumps often last 30+ years.

Signature

  Need Mercedes parts?   http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton       | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

trader4@optonline.net - 12 Mar 2006 21:07 GMT
> >What exactly is so different about MB aluminum that  requires such
> >special antifreeze?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> --

That's a lot different than your previous statement that regular
antifreeze would corrode heads to the point of failure.  I'd also have
to take issue with MB water pumps lasting 30 years.  I see folks in the
newsgroup frequently here with pump failures long before that, many
under 100K miles.

I did quite a bit of looking on the web and found opinions all over
the map on this, not just about MB, but BMW, Volvo, etc.   Just about
all of it seems to come down to the manufacturer recommends it and then
people have all sorts of explanations as to why.   Among the claims I
found:

"Just look at the insides of a cooling system that uses regular
antifreeze and you'll see white deposits that shows the stuff is bad"

But isn't this actually phosphate or similar deposits that are in the
antifreeze for precisely that purpose, which is to say to allow a
coating which protects the metal?

"The higher PH of regular antifreeze causes the plastic components of
the system to fail"

That seems very strange, as everything from drain cleaner to acid comes
in plastic bottles.

"The non-MB antifreeze causes pre-mature corrosion, due to the
mechanism you cited above"

But, as I've said, there are plenty of antifreezes around that the
manufacturers say can be used in any car, and certainly many of today's
cars have aluminum as well as plastic components.  I've seen no damage
to the aluminum componets in my 26 year old car.  By now you would
think there would be an uproar if cooling systems were failing because
of these products.

The only authoritative explanation of what is going on that I could
find from a manufacturer was from Peak, which I included below.  Of
course they have a vested interest in std antifreeze, but at least they
have an explanation, which is that the European manufacturers don't
recommend antifreeze with phosphate because if used with hard water,
which is typical in Europe, it can lead to precipitation and blockage.

It would seem to me that the easiest and safest thing to do is use the
Zerex G5 as it clearly meets MB requirements and only costs a little
more than regular antifreeze.

http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_b.html

In many US and Japanese antifreeze formulas, including those produced
by Old World Industries, phosphate is added as a corrosion inhibitor.
European vehicle manufacturers, however, recommend against the use of
phosphate containing antifreeze. The following will examine the
different positions on this issue to help judge the pros and cons on
phosphate inhibitors.

In the US market, a phosphate inhibitor is included in many formulas to
provide several important functions which help reduce automotive
cooling system damage. The benefits provided by the phosphate include:

Protect aluminum engine components by reducing cavitation corrosion
during high speed driving.
Provide for corrosion protection to ferrous metals.
Act as a buffer to keep the antifreeze mixture alkaline. This prevents
acid build-up that will damage or destroy metal engine parts.

European automobile/ truck producers feel that these benefits are
achievable with inhibitors other than phosphate. Their main concern
with phosphate containing products are the potential for solids
drop-out when mixed with hard water. Solids can collect on cooling
system walls forming what is known as scale. This concern comes from
the fact that European water is much harder than water in the US.
Because phosphate "softens" water by forming solids of calcium or
magnesium salts that can drop-out of solution, there is potential for
cooling system blockage. The phosphate level in most US and Japanese
antifreeze formulas do not generate significant solids. Furthermore
modern antifreeze formulations are designed to minimize the formation
of scale. The small amount of solids formed present no problem for
cooling systems or to water pump seals.

For now, Old World Industries believes that phosphate will remain a
primary ingredient for cooling system protection. Still, as a good
corporate citizen, we continue research on other inhibitor types that
will provide the same benefits without phosphates. To show this
commitment, Old World Industries is now marketing a heavy-duty
antifreeze that incorporates a phosphate free inhibitor package. This
new product is called Fleet Chargeâ antifreeze. It is a universal
formula that passes both heavy-duty and automotive specifications.

In most US and Japanese vehicles, you can use either a phosphate free
or phosphate containing antifreeze during the warranty period. However,
phosphate containing antifreeze can void European OEM warranties. Old
World Industries advises that only recommended antifreeze types be used
in these vehicles during the warranty period to ensure complete
coverage.

>    Need Mercedes parts?   http://parts.mbz.org
> Richard Sexton       | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
> 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
> 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
Richard Sexton - 13 Mar 2006 03:06 GMT
>That's a lot different than your previous statement that regular
>antifreeze would corrode heads to the point of failure.  

I didn't say it would, I said it could, and that's true.

Signature

  Need Mercedes parts?   http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton       | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Martin Joseph - 15 Mar 2006 08:43 GMT
> For my 1985se Mercedes, what type of anti-freeze should I use besides
> paying the $28/gallon at the mercedes dealer. Also, what is the
> recommended transmission fluid to use.

Personally I use regular old green stuff,  but I change it out every two years.

Marty
 
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