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Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / June 200627 years of gasoline prices: actual & inflation adjusted
Gas prices. Sure SEEM high today but, without inflation, they're LOWER than 1979! Take a look: http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html > Gas prices. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html Don't you know that most people in the U.S. like to bitch? We've had it so good for so long it *seems* as if it's very high now. But you don't see anyone getting rid of their SUVs and Greyhound bus converts to motor home! :-( >> Gas prices. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >see anyone getting rid of their SUVs and Greyhound bus converts to motor >home! :-( Yeah but keep in mind 1979 wasn't a particularly cheap time for gas and it was rationed (odd/even) at least in California that year. If memory serves the Arab oil embargo of 1976(?) was the beginning of the end of cheap gas. Try looking at old hippy dippy home reno magazines from that era. It's intersting to see what was a fad/failure and what today is accepted best common practice.  SignatureNeed Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net >>> Gas prices. >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > from that era. It's intersting to see what was a fad/failure and what today > is accepted best common practice. I beg to differ, Richard. In 1971 we were building a stables in Los Alamos, New Mexico. Being a cheap bastard we cut trees from the surrounding forest and poured creosote in the hole, it cost $0.25 a gallon; almost cheaper than water. Suddenly things changed and it was no longer available. Several months later it was available again at $1.25 a gallon. Natural gas costs jumped 400% about the same time. I don't remember what happened globally to cause that price increase. But look at http://tinyurl.com/pkrd5 to see how prices have changed since then. >>>> Gas prices. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >But look at http://tinyurl.com/pkrd5 to see how prices have changed >since then. Yeah but that's creosote. Gas was what 44c/gal in 71 and 65 in 78? SignatureNeed Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net > Gas prices. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html all these years you been on this group, I thought you were in Europe! great data set. m I have same data for last 12 years in Oklahomas, I'll see if I can enter it and do likewise. j. This data is from a Texan. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. By the same token, a 1980 income of say, $30,000, would be the CPI same as $72,742.71 in 2006. (factor for these 26 years is 2.7521) Gasoline prices vs inflation vs 'affordability' Although I don't doubt that the blogger here has an agenda, all of the statistics he used are publicly available and footnoted. http://commonsblog.org/archives/000666.php John M. Greetings All, Hope I'm not to late to join this topic. It always seems when something gets way too expensive for reasons other than normal market action that everyone goes for the old "it's cheap when adjusted for inflation" routine. Fuel in the US (especially diesel) is way over-priced. Let's not use inflation data to keep ourselves in denial or to foolishly try to feel better about it. The fact is that fuel should be cheaper due to tech advances. Why dont you try the "inflation" formula on computers and you'll see what I'm talking about... a $6,000 laptop would seem a bargain even though you could get one today for aroud $1,000. If oil company's were just passing on their added costs, they wouldn't be posting record profits!!! All the best, Cindy >Gas prices. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html Cindy, Technology, by definition improves over time - both in its benefits and its price - thanks to all the engineering effort put into it, but oil is a finite, dwindling (and mostly non recyclable) commodity. So the only leverage on its price is to reduce demand by using less of it. Other commodities like copper, gold and silver, even land, are recycled when their raw materials price gets high enough to justify that effort, but gasoline, jet, diesel and heating fuels, once burned, can't be reclaimed no matter what oil's price. The current world oil price is inflated, more by speculation than exploration and production costs, but that's what happens when markets are destabilized. Tom >Greetings All, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >If oil company's were just passing on their added costs, they wouldn't >be posting record profits!!! your thesis is faulty because you are ignoring that technology advances have little to do with the price of oil, politics, economics and lifestyle changes are what drive the price. WARNING: NEVER USE 1800FLOWERS.COM They can't deliver as promised Yes, I agree with both of you, T.G. Lambach and jdoe.... My point was that IMHO it isn't correct to apply inflation figures to today's outrageous fuel prices then say it is still a bargain. Fuel is no bargain at these levels regardless of inflation data!! I also agree that fuel prices are not high because of normal market action such as supply and demand or extraction costs.I feel that most is due to greedy oil companys and greedy OPEC ministers. >>Greetings All, >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >WARNING: NEVER USE 1800FLOWERS.COM >They can't deliver as promised > Yes, I agree with both of you, T.G. Lambach and jdoe.... > > My point was that IMHO it isn't correct to apply inflation figures to > today's outrageous fuel prices then say it is still a bargain. Fuel > is no bargain at these levels regardless of inflation data!! I don't see anyone using inflation data to say that fuel is a bargain, only to put it into perspective. The inflation adjusted price doesn't make it look cheap, it only shows that it's not the worst it's ever been. And that seems perfectly valid. I also don't know what technology you are referring to that is supposed to make fuel cheaper. Exactly the opposite has happened. The EPA requirements today require fuel to be made cleaner, diesel sulfur extraction, or gasoline additives for example. The formulation requirements are even different for different areas of the country, making moving fuel from where there is excess to where it's needed impossible short term. I also agree that fuel prices are not high because of normal market > action such as supply and demand or extraction costs.I feel that most > is due to greedy oil companys and greedy OPEC ministers. So, the fact that demand has risen as the world's economies have grown and Americans have chosen to buy big SUV;s, taking demand to an all time high isn't a major factor? Or the fact that in the US, vast areas offshore where we could be drilling for more supply, or ANWAR continue to be kept off limits? Did you hear about Katrina? Knocking out virtually all the oil well platforms in the Gulf of Mexico, which still aren't back online wasn't a factor? Oil companies, like all businesses are supposed to be greedy. That's how the free market works and what makes it successful. Do you think the local grocery store, car wash or a home seller sets prices based on altruisim? In fact, one of the basic principles of microeconomics is that firms set prices to maximize profits. That's what makes economic competition work. In the case of OPEC, they are behaving exactly like an oligopoly is expected to act. If you take the hysteria out of the record oil company profits, what they are making accounts for maybe 15 cents a gallon, which isn't a lot of the $3 price. The Fed and state govts here in the US take twice that in tax, plus half the oil company profits in tax and nobody is bitching. > >>Greetings All, > >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >WARNING: NEVER USE 1800FLOWERS.COM > >They can't deliver as promised Interesting points trader4 but I must comment.... >The inflation adjusted price doesn't >make it look cheap, it only shows that it's not the worst it's ever >been. And that seems perfectly valid. I believe it is worse than ever, there are commuting families that are quitting jobs because it is no longer feasable to commute to work. >I also don't know what technology you are referring to that is supposed >to make fuel cheaper. Exactly the opposite has happened. The EPA [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >making moving fuel from where there is excess to where it's needed >impossible short term. The formulations and requirements aren't much different than a couple of years ago when fuel was almost at half the price it is today. >Oil companies, like all businesses are supposed to be greedy. That's >how the free market works and what makes it successful. Do you think [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >competition work. In the case of OPEC, they are behaving exactly like >an oligopoly is expected to act. Sorry, free markets don't work that way. If your local grocer charges you 20% more for the same product , you go to a competing grocer. Problem is that there is no redily available substitute for gas and diesel right now and that's why the OPEC leaders are taking advantage of it. Hugo Chavez whas recently asked what is a fair price for a barrel of oil and he responded, 'anywhere between today's levels and infinity"! >If you take the hysteria out of the record oil company profits, what >they are making accounts for maybe 15 cents a gallon, which isn't a lot >of the $3 price. The Fed and state govts here in the US take twice >that in tax, plus half the oil company profits in tax and nobody is >bitching. Yes, I realize there are a lot of factors at work and yes I belive the majority of the increase is due to the oil suppliers and big oil taking advantage of the instability in the middle east. Of course I understand that a lot is due to the irresponsible view of the SUV crowd and other factors that we have some control over. Bottom line is we should have been a little smarter and invested heavily in the oil sector (when G.W. was first elected) seeing that the US President and Vice-President are both in the business. IF we would have, even $10.00 per gallon gas would seem cheap to us right now....... >Interesting points trader4 but I must comment.... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I believe it is worse than ever, there are commuting families that are >quitting jobs because it is no longer feasable to commute to work. nonsense, where did you dig up this crap from? >The formulations and requirements aren't much different than a couple >of years ago when fuel was almost at half the price it is today. your point is?? the base crude oil has gone up almost 300%, causing the price of products refined from crude oil to up a similar amount >Sorry, free markets don't work that way. If your local grocer charges >you 20% more for the same product , you go to a competing grocer. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >barrel of oil and he responded, 'anywhere between today's levels and >infinity"! it's the old story, he who has the gold makes the rules and opec has the gold. >Yes, I realize there are a lot of factors at work and yes I belive the >majority of the increase is due to the oil suppliers and big oil [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >would have, even $10.00 per gallon gas would seem cheap to us right >now....... invested in what? WARNING: NEVER USE 1800FLOWERS.COM They can't deliver as promised Furthermore, there where there are REALLY high prices (in most of the world outside NA) the cause is government taxation. And still the prices are not always the highest they have ever been in inflation-adjusted terms. And cars are cheaper than ever. DAS For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...] >>>The inflation adjusted price doesn't >>>make it look cheap, it only shows that it's not the worst it's ever >>>been. And that seems perfectly valid. [...] > Interesting points trader4 but I must comment.... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I believe it is worse than ever, there are commuting families that are > quitting jobs because it is no longer feasable to commute to work. You can believe what you want. The fact is, adjusted for inflation, gas prices were about the same, or slightly higher back in 1979-80. And we had gas lines half a mile long along with it. Plus the typical car gets 50% better mileage today. If so many people can't get to work, it's pretty strange that the US unemployment is lower than what economists used to consider full employment. > >I also don't know what technology you are referring to that is supposed > >to make fuel cheaper. Exactly the opposite has happened. The EPA [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The formulations and requirements aren't much different than a couple > of years ago when fuel was almost at half the price it is today. Not much different? How about this: May 10, 2004: Today, the Bush Administration announced one of the most dramatic advancements in clean air protection since passage of the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990. EPA's Clean Air Nonroad Diesel Rule requires stringent pollution controls on diesel engines used in industries such as construction, agriculture and mining, and it will slash sulfur content in diesel fuel. See where it says "slash sulfur content of diesel fuel" Or how about this from Chevron: When is S15 (ULSD) required to be produced and sold? Introduction of the new 15ppm diesel into different portions of the diesel fuel supply channel will be managed through staggered compliance dates. For North America, there are currently three S15 (ULSD) implementation timelines. United States (except California) On-Highway Diesel Fuel Refinery < 15ppm by June 1, 2006 Terminal < 15ppm by September 1, 2006 Retail < 15ppm by October 15, 2006 Off-Road / Locomotive & Marine Fuel < 500ppm by June 1, 2007 California On-Highway, Off-Road, & Fixed Equipment Diesel Fuel Refinery < 15ppm by June 1, 2006 Terminal < 15ppm by July 15, 2006 Retail < 15ppm by September 1, 2006 Intra-State Locomotive / Marine Harbor Craft Fuel < 15ppm by January 1, 2007 Or how about this regarding gasoline: The Tier 2 regulation will also reduce average gasoline sulfur levels in the USA. These reductions could begin to phase in as early as 2000, with full compliance for most refiners occurring by 2006. The program requires that most refiners and importers meet a corporate average gasoline sulfur standard of 120 ppm and a cap of 300 ppm beginning in 2004. By 2006, the average standard will be reduced to 30 ppm with 80 ppm sulfur cap. Temporary, less stringent standards will apply to a few small refiners through 2007. In addition, temporary, less stringent standards will apply to a limited geographic area in the western USA for the 2004-2006 period. It's pretty clear that the refining requirements have been steadily getting tougher, over not only the last few years but even as we speak. BTW, what is the technology you claimed should be reducing the cost of fuels? In reality, it's getting more expensive because it cost more money to make fuels cleaner. > >Oil companies, like all businesses are supposed to be greedy. That's > >how the free market works and what makes it successful. Do you think [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > barrel of oil and he responded, 'anywhere between today's levels and > infinity"! Your analogy is wrong. Following the analogy of the grocery store, just as you are free to go to another grocery store, you are also free to shop for gas by going to a different station that sells gas at a better price. You don't switch most of the core food products you eat, you just find them somewhere else at a better price. And using grocery stores as an analogy is actually a pretty good one, because in any given area there are usually maybe 5 big grocery stores that compete. In the same way, there are usually at least that number of gas station alternatives. Competition works for the grocery stores and it works pretty much the same for the oil companies. > >If you take the hysteria out of the record oil company profits, what > >they are making accounts for maybe 15 cents a gallon, which isn't a lot [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > would have, even $10.00 per gallon gas would seem cheap to us right > now....... So, here we go again. It's not OPEC, rising world demand, a hurricane that wiped out production in the Gulf of Mexico. It's all Bush and it could have been predicted. US and world demand has been rising forever, without regard to who's President. When Bush's father was in office we had some very low oil prices. Of course that gets ignored because it doesn't fit your simplistic Bush family conspiracy theories Back in 1979 - 1980 I was driving a Ford Capri. I used to put £1-00 of petrol in on a Monday and it did me until Thursday, and that was driving to work every day. I'm in the UK by the way and the biggest robbing bastards over here are the Government. I filled the car up tonight and the petrol cost 95.9p per litre. Over 80p of that goes in taxes to the bloody government! >> Interesting points trader4 but I must comment.... >> [quoted text clipped - 129 lines] > office we had some very low oil prices. Of course that gets ignored > because it doesn't fit your simplistic Bush family conspiracy theories >> Interesting points trader4 but I must comment.... >> [quoted text clipped - 126 lines] > office we had some very low oil prices. Of course that gets ignored > because it doesn't fit your simplistic Bush family conspiracy theories I can't quote sources as well as you did, but I lived in Torrance, CA in the 50's and often had to go to LA; visibility was about one (uno, 1) block! It often became noticeable with the eyes started burning and those "in the know" said, "it's cigarette smoke, it's proved by the fact it starts to grow about 7 am when people get up and have their first cigarette." I also did some offshore sail boat racing. My first race was the Cinco de Mayo that went from LA to Ensenada. We'd go out about 20 miles and fall off to a line to head for Ensenada. I looked toward shore...what shore? All I could see was a brown haze. Personally I don't believe it was all from cigarette smoke, does anyone here? :-\ For one thing not that many people lived in LA, they all lived in the suburbs where the air was clear. ;-) As for gas mileage I offer: In 1948 I had a '36 Ford that got 12 mpg up hill or down. Today I've a '02 MB E-320 that gets 28 mpg on the highway! I said there were many factors affecting the price of oil but they aren't the same pressures that affect other commodities in a free market. Corn and pork bellies don't have to deal with the greed and corruption of the OPEC ministers and the fears sold to us by big oil and government. But then again I must be wrong and you are always right. Check the threat levels on the Homeland Security web site and live your life accordingly. (June 8, 2006 The United States remains at an elevated risk, Code Yellow, for terrorist attack.) Those colors are constantly changing for your benefit and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the fact that World War II was over in less time than we have spent looking for Bin Laden and all we have accomplished is the deaths of thousands of Americans. You're right, it's just basic economics and Katrina so we must accept it and not question those that profit from it. Wake up trader4, I thought you were a big boy.... >So, here we go again. It's not OPEC, rising world demand, a hurricane >that wiped out production in the Gulf of Mexico. It's all Bush and it >could have been predicted. US and world demand has been rising >forever, without regard to who's President. When Bush's father was in >office we had some very low oil prices. Of course that gets ignored >because it doesn't fit your simplistic Bush family conspiracy theories > I said there were many factors affecting the price of oil but they > aren't the same pressures that affect other commodities in a free [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of the OPEC ministers and the fears sold to us by big oil and > government. No, corn just deals with ever changing weather/crop conditions around the world. I've seen corn go limit down just because the 10 day weather forecast for the midwest changed. Pork bellies can go limit up or down several days in a row based on the latest cold storage report. And large farming corporations that produce much of the corn crop are as greedy as any other businessmen, as they should be. A hurricane approaching the Gulf of Mexico sends gasoline futures higher because traders start factoring in the possibility of refinery shutdowns or damage to offshore wells. So, what is your point? > But then again I must be wrong and you are always right. Check the > threat levels on the Homeland Security web site and live your life [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > looking for Bin Laden and all we have accomplished is the deaths of > thousands of Americans. And this has what again to do with the price of gasoline? > You're right, it's just basic economics and Katrina so we must accept > it and not question those that profit from it. I never said that. I did say it is basic economics. Demand for oil around the world is up. We haven't done what we should to help increase supply, like opening up offshore drilling and drilling in ANWAR. Americans have chosen to buy SUVs that require more gas than other vehicles. Katrina did knock out production in the Gulf and much of it is still out as the offshore platforms were totally wiped out. You have the OPEC countries acting as a quasi oligopoly. Those are the main factors driving prices. It's nothing unusual or that hasn't been seen before or that needs a conspiracy theory to explain. You seem to think at various times that some of the above are major factors in determining the price of fuel. But then you tell us it all could have been predicted because Bush is responsible for it because he was in the oil industry. Then you throw in more political crap about the hunt for Bin Laden, as if that has anything to do with the price of fuel. Or try to tell us that the requirements for cleaner fuel haven't been constantly evolving, which I showed you is flat out wrong. It's not a major factor, but it does make producing fuels more costly every year. You on the other hand, claim that fuel prices should be lower today because of "technology", but then can't tell us what technology you are referring to. As for profits, I pointed out that the oil companies profit on a gallon of gasoline is 10 or 15 cents, which certainly isn't all that much. The US govt then gets half of that as corporate income tax that goes straight into the treasury. Meanwhile the govt is taking about another 25-30 cents in direct taxes on a gallon of gasoline, yet no one seems to be bitching about that. The profits of the major oil companies are used to search for and produce more oil or returned to the stockholders as dividends. The stockholders include a decent percentage of ordinary Americans who have IRAs or pension plans that are invested in oil stocks. So, even a good bit of the profit after taxes directly benefits the American people. > Wake up trader4, I thought you were a big boy.... I am awake. It seems you are the one having pipe dreams about Bush oil conspiracies. > >So, here we go again. It's not OPEC, rising world demand, a hurricane > >that wiped out production in the Gulf of Mexico. It's all Bush and it > >could have been predicted. US and world demand has been rising > >forever, without regard to who's President. When Bush's father was in > >office we had some very low oil prices. Of course that gets ignored > >because it doesn't fit your simplistic Bush family conspiracy theories You should use something that actually has been tested and verified to save gas mileage according to th DOT. They found 8% to 27% increase. Works on diesel too: http://www.rxp-gas-kicker.com > > I said there were many factors affecting the price of oil but they > > aren't the same pressures that affect other commodities in a free [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > >office we had some very low oil prices. Of course that gets ignored > > >because it doesn't fit your simplistic Bush family conspiracy theories >I feel that most >is due to greedy oil companys and greedy OPEC ministers. an overly simplistic view of the issue WARNING: NEVER USE 1800FLOWERS.COM They can't deliver as promised > Greetings All, > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> >>http://www.randomuseless.info/gasprice/gasprice.html using your logic, cars should cost less than a $100. j. |
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