Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / June 2006
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smoked salmon - 07 Jun 2006 03:23 GMT I am looking for a car for my wife (baby on the way and my wife's 91 Ford escort won't cut in anymore) I have been looking at 1987 - 90 MB 300D cars. There are a few available with 135K Km (Japanese imports) for around $11K CAD. Alternatively I have considered the wagons in the gasoline engine.
- First opinions sought re. the overall quality of the cars. - the sanity of purchasing a car that old for the money - Reliability? are these cars good? - general comments about these cars
My alternative is to buy another Toyota for a bit more $$$
T.G. Lambach - 07 Jun 2006 04:58 GMT Buy the Toyota, you'll have more than enough to do without messing about with the troubles of an old car.
Old cars are cheap for a reason - they need work and that means either your time (DIY) or your money - there's no free lunch.
smoked salmon - 07 Jun 2006 07:35 GMT > Buy the Toyota, you'll have more than enough to do without messing about > with the troubles of an old car. > > Old cars are cheap for a reason - they need work and that means either > your time (DIY) or your money - there's no free lunch. The problem is I yawn when I look at Toyota cars... you're likely correct though.
The Spanish Inquisition - 07 Jun 2006 08:35 GMT >> Buy the Toyota, you'll have more than enough to do without messing >> about with the troubles of an old car. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The problem is I yawn when I look at Toyota cars... > you're likely correct though. Don't worry, when the baby arrives you'll be yawning at the Benz too ;)
Ximinez
 Signature Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/spanish/t1.html
Roger Shoaf - 07 Jun 2006 12:43 GMT > Buy the Toyota, you'll have more than enough to do without messing about > with the troubles of an old car. > > Old cars are cheap for a reason - they need work and that means either > your time (DIY) or your money - there's no free lunch. I think this is flawed thinking. The used car in question has an excellent probability of having a very good longevity factor. If you buy a new car, you have higher insurance costs, and you are either paying more interest to finance the car or you are not getting a return on your investments if you were to pay cash.
New cars are not maintenance free, especially the Japanese cars. When you look at the amount scheduled maintenance costs (timing belts every70k miles etc.) you would probably spend less to maintain the Benz diesel than you would for the beer can.
 Signature Roger Shoaf
If knowledge is power, and power corrupts, what does this say about the Congress?
cp - 09 Jun 2006 06:34 GMT > New cars are not maintenance free, especially the Japanese cars. When you > look at the amount scheduled maintenance costs (timing belts every70k miles > etc.) you would probably spend less to maintain the Benz diesel than you > would for the beer can. We have 6 of these old benzes and I second that.
cp
Richard Sexton - 09 Jun 2006 12:55 GMT >Buy the Toyota, you'll have more than enough to do without messing about >with the troubles of an old car. > >Old cars are cheap for a reason - they need work and that means either >your time (DIY) or your money - there's no free lunch. Maybe. But I'd feel bad about packing my kids up in a Toyota and lettnig them loose on a freeway to play with 18 wheelers. At the end of the day it's harder to die in the benz.
 Signature Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
Tiger - 09 Jun 2006 15:25 GMT Well said! MB has better safety record.
Jeff - 07 Jun 2006 06:27 GMT Yes, they are reliable if well maintained, but you can't expect it to be trouble free with the age you are looking at. They do drive very nice and the diesel engine is know for its longevity if it has been maintained.
I had much rather drive an older Mercedes and deal with the quirks than a Toyota, but that's my personal opinion.
>I am looking for a car for my wife (baby on the way and my wife's 91 Ford >escort won't cut in anymore) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > My alternative is to buy another Toyota for a bit more $$$ smoked salmon - 07 Jun 2006 07:37 GMT > Yes, they are reliable if well maintained, but you can't expect it to be > trouble free with the age you are looking at. They do drive very nice and > the diesel engine is know for its longevity if it has been maintained. > > I had much rather drive an older Mercedes and deal with the quirks than a > Toyota, but that's my personal opinion. I would really like a diesel, though there are few newer substitutes on the market. I really detest VW I have owned 2 both were terrible so that is out of the question. Plus, I am 6'4" and need a roomy car. There sure is a lot of room in the 300D.
ws - 07 Jun 2006 08:34 GMT >> Yes, they are reliable if well maintained, but you can't expect it to >> be trouble free with the age you are looking at. They do drive very [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > is out of the question. Plus, I am 6'4" and need a roomy car. There sure > is a lot of room in the 300D. A child-seat does take up one passenger space, no matter how roomy. But the wife says she feels safer that the family is in a Mercedes rather than a Toyota. So that was one consideration for getting an older MB.
One "advantage" is that they also usually don't have airbags, which aren't so good with child-seats.
*DO* get it checked by an independent workshop before deciding. I'm sure the others here would be happy to recommend one in your area.
Which part of Canada are you in? Diesels are much harder to start in the cold if not in tip-top condition. Also, the heating systems may act up at that age.
It is rear-wheel drive, and most Toyotas front-wheel drive, like the Escort, so depends who is driving, and whether the different handling will cause a problem.
Cheers, WS
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Tiger - 07 Jun 2006 14:37 GMT Most Canadian cars. gas or diesel, come with engine block heater that they must plug in during the winter... otherwise, they just can't start it.
Richard Sexton - 09 Jun 2006 13:00 GMT >Most Canadian cars. gas or diesel, come with engine block heater that they >must plug in during the winter... otherwise, they just can't start it. Not true. I didn't use a block heater this winter. I think there were three times when I had to drag out a second Optima battery and use both to start it, but it did start every time.
 Signature Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
Tiger - 09 Jun 2006 15:27 GMT Some area in Canada is so freezing cold... My uncle used to live there... he said, one day he forgot to plug the car in at work parking lot (all provided by employer)... when he got out of work, he couldn't start the car and it was super freezing... gas engine too.
Richard Sexton - 15 Jun 2006 17:58 GMT >Some area in Canada is so freezing cold... My uncle used to live there... he >said, one day he forgot to plug the car in at work parking lot (all provided >by employer)... when he got out of work, he couldn't start the car and it >was super freezing... gas engine too. It's like that here. Some parts of Canada, ie, Regina Sask. where my brother lives, are so cold that there's plugs in a lot of parking lots so you can plug your car block heater in while you're parked there.
Yes at -44 (F or C, it's the same at tham temp) many cars will not start without block heat, gas or disel, MB or other.
I live in Ontario and we've seen that temp a couple of times in recent memory.
Usually during the winter.
 Signature Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
smoked salmon - 07 Jun 2006 17:01 GMT >>> Yes, they are reliable if well maintained, but you can't expect it to >>> be trouble free with the age you are looking at. They do drive very [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Cheers, > WS I live in Vancouver so cold is never a problem.
cp - 09 Jun 2006 06:35 GMT > I live in Vancouver so cold is never a problem. I live in vancouver as well. If you want, my friend will have a 1985 w126 long body with 300SD engine available. He took out the 500sel engine and is rebuilding a 300sd engine and transmission, then putting it in. If interested email to cplas _AT_ telus _DOT_ net
cp
Richard Sexton - 09 Jun 2006 12:58 GMT >Which part of Canada are you in? Diesels are much harder to start in the >cold if not in tip-top condition. Also, the heating systems may act up >at that age. Nonsense. A basic understanding of what a glo plug is, how it works and how to keep them happy will start the car in the worst part of canada on the coldest day. A bit of common sense goes a long way. You will need a block heater at -44. There's many gas cars that de facto need the same thing.
Heat is generlaly easy to fix in all but the oldest (70s) benzes.
 Signature Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
Tiger - 07 Jun 2006 14:41 GMT If you are serious about MB, then I highly recommend you have that car inspected by MB specialist BEFORE you buy it.
Check all service record... make sure all the fuel lines are all changed... Tranny is very important... if they changed it not too long ago, it is a plus only if it is running properly... responsive and all.
I own a W124 and I love it. I am still working out the quirks... but I am almost there. Diesel engine is more reliable and less maintenance than gas... The W124 are probably one of the most reliable of all MB series... good balance of electronics and not overloaded with complexities... simple basic car.
trader4@optonline.net - 07 Jun 2006 14:51 GMT I'm with TG on this one. The car under consideration is 16-20 years old with 135K KM on it. At that age and mileage, you can expect considerably more maintenance issues than you would have with a new Toyota. If you buy it with that understanding and are prepared to deal with it as necessary, they can be a good purchase. A good example is buying one as a second car.
However if you don't have the time or skill to do some of the repairs yourself, can't be without the car while it's being repaired somewhere else, don't have a second car, etc. then this type of car may not be for you.
Also, the issues of diesels in cold temps is a valid one. Depending on how the car is being used, the need for a block heater in winter may rule it out. .
cp - 09 Jun 2006 06:37 GMT > I'm with TG on this one. The car under consideration is 16-20 years > old with 135K KM on it. At that age and mileage, you can expect > considerably more maintenance issues than you would have with a new 135K KM for a well maintained benz is just broken in.
Where can you find an old benz with such low kilometers?
We have six of these old benzes, 1966-1991 and maintenance, out of all the cars my family has had, the benzes are the cheapest. Period.
cp
James O'Riley - 07 Jun 2006 21:13 GMT > If you are serious about MB, then I highly recommend you have that car > inspected by MB specialist BEFORE you buy it. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > good balance of electronics and not overloaded with complexities... simple > basic car. I bought the 2002 E-320 from a dealer in Spokane, WA. They provided a CarFax on the car. Even if your seller doesn't offer one you can get one free CarFax report from: http://tinyurl.com/o8uck
I bought one after 50 years of wondering should I or not. I guess I did the right thing, this 2002 is the epitimy of design and reliability as far as I'm concerned.
PLUS, MB's warrantee and road service is the best I've ever heard of.
James
smoked salmon - 08 Jun 2006 07:15 GMT > If you are serious about MB, then I highly recommend you have that car > inspected by MB specialist BEFORE you buy it. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > good balance of electronics and not overloaded with complexities... simple > basic car. Thanks for the help The best car for me would be the wagon though these seem to be very scarce. At this point it is between a 1997 Toyota Rav4, and a 1991 Mercedes 300D. Or something else???
I wish I could source a MB 300TD wagon here in Vancouver (with moderately low Km.
I have a 2005 Toyota Tundra Double Cab 4X4 TRD offroad for my other vehicle so if the MB went to the shop there would be a substitute.
Was the W124 available in Canada?
Jeff - 08 Jun 2006 15:50 GMT The 1991 300D is a W124.
>> If you are serious about MB, then I highly recommend you have that car >> inspected by MB specialist BEFORE you buy it. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Was the W124 available in Canada? Tiger - 08 Jun 2006 20:17 GMT Yes, W124 was available in Canada. Just keep looking until you found one. I don't know the consequences of bringing US car into Canada.
Guenter Scholz - 09 Jun 2006 03:27 GMT >Yes, W124 was available in Canada. Just keep looking until you found one. I >don't know the consequences of bringing US car into Canada. If the car is more than (I believe but not totally sure) 20 years old then you just drive it across the border more or less.
cheers
ps it may be 25 years old
ws - 09 Jun 2006 03:58 GMT >>Yes, W124 was available in Canada. Just keep looking until you found one. I >>don't know the consequences of bringing US car into Canada. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > ps it may be 25 years old I *thought* I saw the reference here before, and googled. Here it is from Richard Sexton's site:
http://buying.articles.mbz.org/importing/
15 years. Which is just about right for a 1990-1991 W124 :-)
IMO, plenty of nice 300D (not wagons?) to be found in the US too.
Cheers, WS
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ws - 09 Jun 2006 04:17 GMT Whoops,
Don't forget to read the other links too:
http://buying.articles.mbz.org/checklists/124/
WS
>>> Yes, W124 was available in Canada. Just keep looking until you found >>> one. I don't know the consequences of bringing US car into Canada. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Cheers, > WS
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cp - 09 Jun 2006 06:42 GMT > I *thought* I saw the reference here before, and googled. Here it is from Richard Sexton's site: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > IMO, plenty of nice 300D (not wagons?) to be found in the US too. Get someone to pick up a diesel w124 for you from Germany =) less than 120K KM
http://tinyurl.com/zfx8l
cp
The Spanish Inquisition - 09 Jun 2006 07:06 GMT >> I *thought* I saw the reference here before, and googled. Here it is from Richard Sexton's site: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > http://tinyurl.com/zfx8l There are a few places in Holland (Budgetbenz, Nijkamp mercedes) that specialize in finding older low km MB's in Germany. They're not cheap, but the cars are good.
I got a 250D there (2.5 liter 5 cylinder diesel).
From this group I often get the impression that the 300D sold in the US is a 5 cylinder 2.5 liter diesel. In Europe, the 300D is a 6 cylinder 3 liter diesel. Is that the correct impression? I wonder why they did that. Is the 300SD a 2.5 liter as well?
Ximinez
 Signature Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/spanish/t1.html
cp - 09 Jun 2006 07:19 GMT > There are a few places in Holland (Budgetbenz, Nijkamp mercedes) that specialize in finding older low km MB's in Germany. They're > not cheap, but the cars are good. Yeah, my dad bought a w124 200D from Holland. It's funny, but that tank and 2L 4cyl diesel engine are not too bad on the mountain highways here in BC. And it takes less than 6L/100km
> I got a 250D there (2.5 liter 5 cylinder diesel). > > From this group I often get the impression that the 300D sold in the US is a 5 cylinder 2.5 liter diesel. In Europe, the 300D is a > 6 cylinder 3 liter diesel. Is that the correct impression? I wonder why they did that. Some of the 300D were indeed 2.5 Turbo diesel, others 3L, at least here in Canada. We had a 1990 3L 300TD, very nice.
>Is the 300SD a 2.5 liter as well? No. 300SD was w126 with om617 Then there were the 300SDL and 350SDL w126's
cp
The Spanish Inquisition - 09 Jun 2006 08:55 GMT >> There are a few places in Holland (Budgetbenz, Nijkamp mercedes) that specialize in finding older low km MB's in Germany. They're >> not cheap, but the cars are good. > > Yeah, my dad bought a w124 200D from Holland. It's funny, but that tank and 2L 4cyl diesel engine are not too bad on the mountain > highways here in BC. And it takes less than 6L/100km Well the 200D is a bit too relaxed for my tastes even though there's not a hill around.
The 250D is not a fast car either, but combined with the automatic gearbox (which is rare in Holland) it makes for a very relaxing ride, especially in heavy traffic (whih is not rare in Holland). My GF has a 190E 2.0 and I find myself driving much too fast in it in comparison. Probably to compensate for the ole 250D I try to overtake everyone ;)
Ximinez
 Signature Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/spanish/t1.html
Dori A Schmetterling - 09 Jun 2006 19:45 GMT Oh, come on, there's 300 m near Maastricht... Or is that 100 m?
BTW, I drove my 200D for two years mainly around Schleswig-Holstein, with a topography similar to that of NL. I was very happy, but those colleagues (many also with company 200Ds) who had to drive longer distances around all of Germany or mountainous Bavaria were less pleased...
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
[...] even though there's not a hill around. [...]
Juergen . - 10 Jun 2006 23:43 GMT > BTW, I drove my 200D for two years mainly around Schleswig-Holstein, with a > topography similar to that of NL. I was very happy, but those colleagues > (many also with company 200Ds) who had to drive longer distances around all > of Germany or mountainous Bavaria were less pleased... Lame whiners! ;-)
Fill the other 4 passenger seats with men, fill the 500 litre trunk completely and tow a your 1500 kg caravan - THEN you can complain about power in a 55 PS 200D!
Juergen - W123 200D AMG aka 240D...
BTW: Schleswig-Holstein, country between the seas, very nice!
cp - 11 Jun 2006 05:48 GMT > Juergen - W123 200D AMG aka 240D... the w123 200D had the same engine (2.4L) as the 240D in North America?
cp
Juergen . - 14 Jun 2006 00:52 GMT > > Juergen - W123 200D AMG aka 240D... > the w123 200D had the same engine (2.4L) as the 240D in North America? No, that was a joke about the increased ahem... power ;-) of the 240D compared to the 200D.
200D had the OM 615.940 engine, bore x stroke 87,0 x 83,6 mm, 1988 ccm (German tax formula = 1971), 02/1976 - 01/1978 55 PS, 02/1978 - 04/1985 60 PS, sedan only
240D had the OM 616.912 engine, bore x stroke 91,0 x 92,4 mm 02/1976 - 07/1978 = 2404 ccm (German tax formula = 2376), from 08/1978 - 11/1985 = bore x stroke 90,9 x 92,4 mm = 2399 ccm (German tax formula = 2350 ccm), sedan.
Also sedan LWB and T-model were available, last 240TD built 01/1986.
T-model serial production started 05/1978, so no 65 PS 240TD.
All above data for European cars.
Juergen
Dori A Schmetterling - 11 Jun 2006 18:29 GMT Indeed. Living in Hamburg was very nice.
BTW, my 200D has the new engine with 60 PS... MUCH better than 55...
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
[...]
> BTW: Schleswig-Holstein, country between the seas, very nice! Juergen . - 14 Jun 2006 00:53 GMT > Indeed. Living in Hamburg was very nice. Oh, you lived in Hamburg then??
> BTW, my 200D has the new engine with 60 PS... MUCH better than 55... Yes, it surely sounds strange to most people, but the power increase indeed clearly was noticeable: Even in the old days one needed every single of these 55 PS often - and so this 10 per cent (ok, it's 9,1 per cent only...) increase WAS noticeable.
When I later changed to a 72 PS 240D the 20 per cent power increase was incredible - it was really fast (ok, in comparison only)!
300D with 80 PS with its 11 per cent power increase was not very noticeable compared to 240D - but the 5-cylinder sound was a dream, worlds apart from the 4-cyl sounds (and back then I could differentiate 200D, 220D and 240D by their idle sound).
But of course in today's world these cars are very slow to extremely slow and whenever someone asks in the 240D about the acceleration it's great to see their reaction when I tell them 0-100 km/h is 24.7 secs... ;-)))
Juergen
Dori A Schmetterling - 14 Jun 2006 01:40 GMT As you may remember from my previous posts about this vehicle, I don't bother with precise acceleration figures (even if every digit after the decimal counts...).
0 - 100 in a week is adequate description...
Yes, lived in HH for >2 years. Was tempted to take up the offer to stay longer but I returned to London. I had previously lived in Brussels for 7.5 months, moving to Hamburg after a break of three months or so. A great three years, then. Nice (tiny) apartments (penthouse with big terrace in BXL, fantastic view 'into' horizon and onto a canal of the Aussenalster with ducks and the occasional swan sliding by), new Merc 200D in HH...
DAS
 Signature For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
>> Indeed. Living in Hamburg was very nice. > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Juergen cp - 10 Jun 2006 20:45 GMT > Well the 200D is a bit too relaxed for my tastes even though there's not a hill around. Enough for me alright =)
> The 250D is not a fast car either, but combined with the automatic gearbox (which is rare in Holland) it makes for a very relaxing > ride, especially in heavy traffic (whih is not rare in Holland). My GF has a 190E 2.0 and I find myself driving much too fast in > it in comparison. Probably to compensate for the ole 250D I try to overtake everyone ;) Now what about a w210 with a 5spd 2.5 turbo diesel? whooooooo! =)
cp
Juergen . - 10 Jun 2006 23:35 GMT > Now what about a w210 with a 5spd 2.5 turbo diesel? whooooooo! =) Export model for Italy only, always 5 speed manual trans, no auto.
110 kw = 150 PS, 280 Nm @1800-3600 revs
Sedan 206 km/h (128 mph), 10,4 s 0-100 km/h (62.1 mph)
T-Model 203 km/h (126 mph), 11,3 s 0-100 km/h (62.1 mph)
Juergen
cp - 11 Jun 2006 05:48 GMT oooooooops I mean w201 =)
cp
>> Now what about a w210 with a 5spd 2.5 turbo diesel? whooooooo! =) > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Juergen Juergen . - 14 Jun 2006 00:52 GMT Oh, W201 - was always a rare thing here in Germany due to the high price:
190D 75 PS DM 36.822 190D 2.5 94 PS DM 42.807 190D 2.5 Turbo 126 PS DM 48.165 That is a third more for the Turbo compared to the 190D!
Prices for German spec base models in Deutsche Mark; a W124 200D started at DM 43.890, a W140 300SE at DM 87.894
Juergen
Juergen . - 11 Jun 2006 00:21 GMT > From this group I often get the impression that the 300D sold in the US > is a 5 cylinder 2.5 liter diesel. In Europe, the 300D is a 6 cylinder 3 > liter diesel. Is that the correct impression? I wonder why they did > that. Is the 300SD a 2.5 liter as well? That's marketing, pure marketing.
There was the 250D (and 250D Turbo), 2,5 L 5-cyl engines. And the 300D (and 300D Turbo), 3 L 6-cyl engines (and the 200D, 2 L 4-cyl engine).
In some markets like the US the 250D Turbo was marketed as 300D 2.5 Turbo - a try to give the car more prestige as "300D" was well known from the /8 (which here in Europe was marketed as "240D 3.0") and W123, also as these two series never had a 2,5 L diesel engine.
Juergen
The Spanish Inquisition - 11 Jun 2006 07:45 GMT >> From this group I often get the impression that the 300D sold in the US >> is a 5 cylinder 2.5 liter diesel. In Europe, the 300D is a 6 cylinder 3 [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > was marketed as "240D 3.0") and W123, also as these two > series never had a 2,5 L diesel engine. Thanks for clarifying that.
Ximinez
 Signature Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/spanish/t1.html
smoked salmon - 09 Jun 2006 15:42 GMT >> I *thought* I saw the reference here before, and googled. Here it is from Richard Sexton's site: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > cp Yes those look nice and exactly what I am looking for... I wonder how I would get one or two shipped?
Tiger - 09 Jun 2006 17:36 GMT At that price? Wow... call em up and ask how much $$$... not how because anything is possible.
cp - 10 Jun 2006 20:51 GMT > At that price? Wow... call em up and ask how much $$$... not how because anything is possible. Yeah, you should see the beautiful 1990 w201 200D my father brought for my sister. 120K for 2500EU, with shipping and taxes cost around 7500CAD, which is more than worth it.
cp
Juergen . - 10 Jun 2006 23:12 GMT 190D
---------------------
> > At that price? Wow... call em up and ask how much $$$... not how because anything is possible. > > Yeah, you should see the beautiful 1990 w201 200D my father brought for my sister. 120K for 2500EU, with shipping and taxes cost > around 7500CAD, which is more than worth it. > > cp cp - 10 Jun 2006 23:17 GMT Yes, I mean 190D, the 200D is the w124, same engines
cp
> 190D > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> cp Juergen . - 10 Jun 2006 23:25 GMT > Yes, I mean 190D, the 200D is the w124, same engines Astonishing engines, seem to last forever, some even good for 1 million km with no revisions in Taxis here.
Compared to them the newer CDI engines ar c***.
Juergen
cp - 10 Jun 2006 23:32 GMT >> Yes, I mean 190D, the 200D is the w124, same engines > > Astonishing engines, seem to last forever, some even good for > 1 million km with no revisions in Taxis here. > > Compared to them the newer CDI engines ar c***. Juergen, what are you doing up so late? Go to sleep! =)
Yeah, I talk with taxi drivers every time I'm in Germany and they praise these engines. We're definitely happy with the two we have.
BTW, what do you think of the CDI, apart from the other ones of course =)
cp
Juergen . - 11 Jun 2006 00:38 GMT Hi cp,
> Juergen, what are you doing up so late? Go to sleep! =) Local time is ca. 1:35 a.m. Sunday morning, Saturday was the first real warm day and I will soon get out, free the ole 240D from the garage and do some night-time photography.
> BTW, what do you think of the CDI, apart from the other ones of course =) Astonishing power, _very_ fuel efficient.
What I do not like is the loud outside noise when cold (which is even worse with VW TDIs), and if anything fails it can get costly, much electronics.
Also for professional use like taxis I'm not fully convinced about the longevity, but for private use 300.000 or more km without major problems should be fine.
Juergen
cp - 11 Jun 2006 05:52 GMT >> Juergen, what are you doing up so late? Go to sleep! =) > > Local time is ca. 1:35 a.m. Sunday morning, Saturday was Yeah, 1:35am in Hamburg is when the life starts, especially near the ports =)
> ole 240D from the garage and do some night-time photography. Night time photography, a lot of fun. Amazing the pictures that can be taken.
>> BTW, what do you think of the CDI, apart from the other ones of course =) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (which is even worse with VW TDIs), and if anything fails > it can get costly, much electronics. Impossible to run them without electronics?
> Also for professional use like taxis I'm not fully > convinced about the longevity, but for private use > 300.000 or more km without major problems should be fine. 300K, that's not much. My, how the mighty have fallen. Perhaps the electronics wear out.
cp
Juergen . - 14 Jun 2006 00:57 GMT > Night time photography, a lot of fun. Amazing the pictures that can be taken. Yes, it's fun, my sturdiest tripod for the cameras lives in the 240D trunk, my preferred car for such activities. What's particularly interesting in night photography is that you have the ability to _collect_ light with long shutter speeds and the results are often very different to the scene you saw with your eyes (although with my DSLRs the surprise effect of the days of film is gone).
(CDI engines)
> Impossible to run them without electronics? They have an emergency mode so you can (slowly) drive to the dealer.
> 300K, that's not much. My, how the mighty have fallen. Perhaps the electronics wear out. I don't say there's no CDI engines with more than 300K, but it's (IMHO only of course) remarkable that many used taxis are sold with 2xxk - I remember that being different with older models without CDI engines (often 500k or more).
But I think it's logical, with a - say - W211 E220CDI the 170 PS from the displacement of 2148 ccm _do_ come at a price: Added load on the engine and several components (also additional components like turbos and intercoolers add to complexity) do have an influence in the long run, there's (literally) no free lunch.
Also think about diesel fuel and it's quality: Nowadays the engines require a good quality, in old engines like the pre-chamber OM 616 etc. you can put in low-quality diesel, for winter operation you can even add petroleum, that'as stated in the manual - don't ever try that with a CDI!!
So, YES, CDIs are powerful and they are fuel efficient, but...
Juergen (getting older day by day)
jdoe - 11 Jun 2006 04:33 GMT >> Yes, I mean 190D, the 200D is the w124, same engines > >Astonishing engines, seem to last forever, some even good for >1 million km with no revisions in Taxis here. > >Compared to them the newer CDI engines ar c***. the newer cdi engines work just fine and will blow the doors off of any older diesel, and most gas cars too
Juergen . - 14 Jun 2006 00:53 GMT > the newer cdi engines work just fine and will blow the doors off of > any older diesel, and most gas cars too Yes, of course they do - but I'm talking about things like durability, longevity and reliability.
Juergen
jdoe - 14 Jun 2006 02:33 GMT >> the newer cdi engines work just fine and will blow the doors off of >> any older diesel, and most gas cars too > >Yes, of course they do - but I'm talking about things like >durability, longevity and reliability. so far it;s been reliable, durable and time will tell about longevity
cp - 10 Jun 2006 20:49 GMT >>> IMO, plenty of nice 300D (not wagons?) to be found in the US too. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Yes those look nice and exactly what I am looking for... I wonder how I would get one or two shipped? Shipping is simple. My dad shipped 6 of these diesels (including a beautiful 5spd turbo diesel "Westfalia" VW) to tacoma washington. Cars are around 800USD. You're in Vancouver, right? To import a car into Canada from outside the US it must be 15 years old. To import a car into the US from outside it must be 25 years old unless you got a lot of money and connections, which wouldn't make any sense anyways =)
The two sites kfzmarkt.de and mobile.de are more than enough. That's how my father shops. Once he won't straight off the plane and picked one up. It's definitely worth if you're into these cars.
cp
smoked salmon - 10 Jun 2006 21:48 GMT >>>> IMO, plenty of nice 300D (not wagons?) to be found in the US too. >>> Get someone to pick up a diesel w124 for you from Germany =) less than 120K KM [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > cp Yes I am in Vancouver, How did he ship them? Did he rent a container? I could fly over there and pick up a couple to ship back. Would be fun. :) and I could fund my trip with the proceeds of the sale.
cp - 10 Jun 2006 23:21 GMT > Yes I am in Vancouver, How did he ship them? Did he rent a container? I You ship them from Bremerhaven, a number of choices there
> could fly over there and pick up a couple to ship back. Would be fun. :) and I could fund my trip with the proceeds of the sale. If you speak German and are knowleadgeable about these cars then it is definitely worth it. It's harder now that many cars are going to eastern Europe, though those are usually the cheaper ones. For 4000EU+ you can find a really nice car.
Now if you're not familiar with Europe or the languages then it will be hard.
cp
smoked salmon - 11 Jun 2006 20:28 GMT >> Yes I am in Vancouver, How did he ship them? Did he rent a container? I > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > cp Interesting, thank you for all the information.., I took German in high school and university though that was a long time ago now. And I suspect I would alway be asking "bitte sprechen etwas langsamer". So I guess I will restrict my search to Canadian cars. It would be nice to source a 15 year old low Km wagon though. I have an auto broker acquaintance looking for one for me and he keeps trying to sell me a Subaru since he can't find any.
he stated the following:
"All pretty well had the same response. Parts are very expensive and you will have to find a good diesel mechanic. Because Mercedes stopped shipping diesel models to North America over 15 years ago and even before that not many diesels were sold, makes it very difficult to get even used parts. They all suggest Subaru, Volvo, or small SUV'S like Honda CRV, Toyota RAV4"
He may have a point? any comments on parts availability in North America?
Helen - 11 Jun 2006 22:31 GMT >>> Yes I am in Vancouver, How did he ship them? Did he rent a container? I >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > He may have a point? any comments on parts availability in North America? I have and independent mechanic in Savannah, Georgia and he uses only German parts. He has no problem finding anything for my 23 yr old "Big Blue". The folks in Atlanta have no problem finding parts. I think you are hearing the scales being tipped to get something the seller wants to sell you. Afterall, the internet is world-wide and according to the UPS guys, they ship around the world. So if Germany has the parts,...there ya go.
Just my $.02 worth. BTW I had that same story told to me by a guy who wanted to sell me a car. Sorry, I didn't buy it then and I don't now. Of course that is with the understanding that some vehicles do have parts that are difficult to locate, but that applies to other than MB's too.
smoked salmon - 11 Jun 2006 22:40 GMT <snip>
> I have and independent mechanic in Savannah, Georgia and he uses only > German parts. He has no problem finding anything for my 23 yr old "Big [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > parts that are difficult to locate, but that applies to other than MB's > too. Yes I suspected he was trying to sell me something he could easily get rather than do the legwork. I wonder why there are so few diesel cars for North America. I have had a couple Diesel Landcruisers now and love them thought there is now nothing relatively recent except for VW (which I loathe).
Helen - 11 Jun 2006 22:52 GMT > <snip> >> I have and independent mechanic in Savannah, Georgia and he uses only [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > a couple Diesel Landcruisers now and love them thought there is now > nothing relatively recent except for VW (which I loathe). Years ago I owned a Scriocco, VW. I really liked it, especially for the gas mileage. It's the ONLY formerly owned car I wish I had now. Granted it doesn't provide the comfort of a Benz, but then again it wasn't intend to. I do wish I had THAT car back. :( Sorry it's gone.
cp - 11 Jun 2006 22:57 GMT > Interesting, thank you for all the information.., > I took German in high school and university though that was a long time ago now. And I suspect I would alway be asking "bitte > sprechen etwas langsamer". That'd be enough =)
Make it a vacation, it'd be fun.
> he stated the following: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > He may have a point? any comments on parts availability in North America? You mechanic/friend has no clue as to what he's talking about. We have six of these cars in our family so I do know what I'm talking about.
cp
smoked salmon - 12 Jun 2006 01:16 GMT >> Interesting, thank you for all the information.., >> I took German in high school and university though that was a long time ago now. And I suspect I would alway be asking "bitte [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > cp I agree it would be fun (even if I come back empty handed it would be fun! (I hear German beer is nice)) + I have enough flight points to go to Germany 7 times :).
Do you know what paperwork is required on the German Side to make importation smooth? Or a link to this info?
Where are all the diesels? why are these not more common and why can't I get newer ones here in Canada?
Cheers
Dori A Schmetterling - 13 Jun 2006 13:29 GMT Probably because the manufacturers don't want to make old-technology engines to suit the sulfurous and varied fuel in NA?
Should change when clean fuel becomes available across NA - that's quite soon, isn't it?
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
[...]
> Where are all the diesels? why are these not more common and why can't I > get newer ones here in Canada? > > Cheers smoked salmon - 13 Jun 2006 19:08 GMT > Probably because the manufacturers don't want to make old-technology engines > to suit the sulfurous and varied fuel in NA? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> Cheers Yes I think the low Sulfur diesel deadline is 2007 or 2008 - Though presumably engines meeting the required specs could be built now?
Apparently MB is bringing a Diesel M, and R class to Canada later this year for the 2007 model year. (They currently have the E320 CDi and the Smart fortwo CDi for sale in Canada) I can't afford a new E320Cdi unfortunately.
I think I will try to source a 15 year old 300TD 6cyl from EU.
The Spanish Inquisition - 13 Jun 2006 20:29 GMT > Yes I think the low Sulfur diesel deadline is 2007 or 2008 - Though > presumably engines meeting the required specs could be built now? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I think I will try to source a 15 year old 300TD 6cyl from EU. There's a 1991 300D (3.0 liter, 6 cyl non turbo) for sale at http://www.nijkamp-klassiekers.nl (Click Voorraad for the list of cars). Only 40.000 km, for a whopping 12500 EURO's.
This place has a good reputation. They seek out well preserved low mileage cars from Germany to sell on the Dutch market.
Ximinez
 Signature Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency... and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/spanish/t1.html
Juergen . - 10 Jun 2006 23:54 GMT > http://tinyurl.com/zfx8l The second-one from top (1699 EUR) was a former taxi - so it`s 40.000 to 150.000 km a year, the former for one-driver operation, more-driver operation typically is around 120.000 km.
So it's VERY clear that car has _at least_ half a million kms, maybe more than 1 million, it`s 17 years old! That's what's behind "Kilometerstand nicht nachweisbar" (mileage not approved).
And with the red 250TD is stated: "Tacho ist schon gewechselt worden gesamtlaufleistung ca 250 Tkm" (odometer has been replaced, total mileage ca 250.000 km) means it could also be 500.000 km - or more!
Juergen
Juergen . - 11 Jun 2006 00:40 GMT Arrrrgl - one mistake after the other... ===:-((((
Of course it should be "multi-driver operation"
Juergen
Tiger - 11 Jun 2006 03:13 GMT Ahh! So that is why it is so cheap...
cp - 11 Jun 2006 05:53 GMT > Ahh! So that is why it is so cheap... No, those were just some quick examples. We've definitely brought over good cars in that price range, though now it's harder as most of them go to eastern Europe.
cp
Juergen . - 14 Jun 2006 00:57 GMT Yes, lots of, also to Africa and Arabia.
-----------------------------------------
> though now it's harder as most > of them go to eastern Europe. > > cp Dori A Schmetterling - 11 Jun 2006 18:34 GMT Terrible!
"Nicht nachweisbar" means "not provable".
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
> Arrrrgl - one mistake after the other... ===:-(((( > > Of course it should be "multi-driver operation" > > Juergen Juergen . - 14 Jun 2006 00:53 GMT > "Nicht nachweisbar" means "not provable". Ok - I stand corrected!
Juergen
Dori A Schmetterling - 14 Jun 2006 01:42 GMT No big deal but I thought the difference was significant in your context.
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
>> "Nicht nachweisbar" means "not provable". > > Ok - I stand corrected! > > Juergen cp - 11 Jun 2006 05:54 GMT Yeah, just some quick examples, I didn't go through the ads.
cp
>> http://tinyurl.com/zfx8l > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Juergen Richard Sexton - 09 Jun 2006 13:05 GMT >>Yes, W124 was available in Canada. Just keep looking until you found one. I >>don't know the consequences of bringing US car into Canada. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >ps it may be 25 years old It's 15. The US will not allow the importation of some vehilces into it no matter what the year. Canada allows ANY vehicle to be imported if it's 15 yrs or older.
http://articles.mbz.org/buying/
 Signature Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
cp - 10 Jun 2006 20:51 GMT > It's 15. The US will not allow the importation of some vehilces into it > no matter what the year. Canada allows ANY vehicle to be imported if it's > 15 yrs or older. > > http://articles.mbz.org/buying/ Yeh, I second that, from experience.
cp
OM - 12 Jun 2006 22:39 GMT > It's 15. The US will not allow the importation of some vehilces into it > no matter what the year. Canada allows ANY vehicle to be imported if it's > 15 yrs or older. Sorry, it's not true. US does allow the vehicles more than 25-year-old to be imported without modification to meet the safety regulations. However, the vehicle must be modified to meet the EPA pollution regulations of the year manufactured.
On other hand, if you insist on importing and registering the vehicles younger than 25-year-old, you must arrange for the registered importer to modify the vehicle and to sort the paperwork for both DOT and EPA.
If the vehicle has same body chassis and same motor-gearbox combination officially sold in the USA, the cost is considerably cheaper. For instance, if you want a C55 station wagon which is not even officially imported to the USA, the registered importer can obtain all of required parts and do the conversion work easily.
In that case of smart cars, Zap, Inc. of Santa Rosa, California contracted a registered importer for $10million to 're-manufacture' the smart cars for US market with unique components that were fabricated by the registered importer.
We do have a category called 'historical and technical' importation which allows the owners to import the specialty vehicles without any modifications to meet safety regulations. The rules for pollution regulations for the year manufactured still applies here. However, the owners are not allowed to drive more than 2.500 miles a year. NHTSA will verify the odometer annually as to ensure the compliance. The rule is that the vehicle must not have shared a common chassis with the vehicles that are officially imported. Mercedes-Benz CLK-GTR, McLaren F1, and Porsche 959 fit that category. But, Audi RS6 station wagon doesn't.
It's time to push for the switch to ECE R 29 (international de facto safety regulations). We've have enough of restricted choices of models and motors for the US market. We've have enough of inept NHTSA trying to reinvent the wheel once too often. Australians have it lucky than the Americans as they have harmonised their safety and pollution regulations with ECE R29 which made the vehicles cheaper and widely available in Australia.
Juergen . - 11 Jun 2006 00:12 GMT > gas... The W124 are probably one of the most reliable of all MB series... > good balance of electronics and not overloaded with complexities... simple > basic car. Very well said, the W124s are modern enough (ABS, airbags), simple enough (non-CDI diesel engines) plus high quality materials used.
Also a wide choice, here in Germany from 72 PS 200D to 320 PS E500 (not counting E60 AMG), sedan, T-model, coupe, cabrio.
Juergen
Guenter Scholz - 11 Jun 2006 03:09 GMT >> gas... The W124 are probably one of the most reliable of all MB series... >> good balance of electronics and not overloaded with complexities... simple [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >simple enough (non-CDI diesel engines) plus high quality >materials used. Juergen, I'm puzzled about your last comment. Are you saying you prefer the 300 TD in the late 90's for example to the new CDI models... is it mostly because of the simpler engine etc?
cheers, guenter
Tiger - 11 Jun 2006 13:01 GMT He is saying exactly that... 1998 or 1999 E300TD is the last of the classic turbo diesel before the CDI engine... are probably the most reliable and powerful diesel engine before the CDI came out in 2003.
cp - 11 Jun 2006 22:58 GMT > He is saying exactly that... 1998 or 1999 E300TD is the last of the classic turbo diesel before the CDI engine... are probably the > most reliable and powerful diesel engine before the CDI came out in 2003. CDI has been out longer than 2003.
cp
Juergen . - 14 Jun 2006 00:57 GMT > CDI has been out longer than 2003. Yes, definitely.
Weren't the W210 CDIs 200CDI and 220 CDI available from July 1998??
And wasn't C-Class W202 first with the C220CDI in 1997?
Juergen
Juergen . - 14 Jun 2006 00:53 GMT Hi Guenter
> >> gas... The W124 are probably one of the most reliable of all MB series... > >> good balance of electronics and not overloaded with complexities... simple [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > is it mostly because of the simpler engine etc? > cheers, guenter Looking at reliability, simplicity, ease and cost of repair plus longevity as well as durability: Yes, I do.
But of course I'm not mainstream with my thoughts and wants plus there's another thing, that's the sound of the engines.
When I drove a w124 300D (sedan, auto, 109 PS) for a year, which now is more than 10 years ago, I not only liked the power - yes, POWER, compared to the 55-80 PS 4- and 5-cyl W123 diesels - but especially the sound of the engine. I know that's _highly_ subjective and in realistic terms the car was not _fast_ (185 km/h//115 mph, 0-100 km/h = 0-62.1 mph = 14,1 s), but I also found the power delivery of the 3 litre-inline 6-cylinder (OM 603.912) smooth and even. It's for me like giving a bit of the impression some ship diesels make on me.
And the sound was different from all the competition, they were all _way_ behind in any aspect (W124 300D was built starting in 1985, except maybe Audi, but the MB cars were way better in any respect - then).
Everytime I drive a W210 E270 CDI (station, auto, 170 PS, OM 612) I'm underwhelmed by the noise, inside it is acceptable, outside it is loud and the sound is _cheap_. The engine is the same as all the competition makes', no advantage compared to them in power, sound or longevity or anything.
Of course the latter engine (OM 612) is better as it has identical fuel consumption to W124 300D in city driving and the car is much faster, too: 212 km/h = 132 mph, 0-100 km/h = 0-62.1 mph = 9.5 s, sedan = 222 km/h = 138 mph (some influence on the Vmax of course comes from the better drag coefficient of the W210).
What I definitely do not like regarding longevity and durability is the added electronics in the CDI engines, also not the VTG, the turbo with V ariable T urbine G eometry, but of course both are key components for the excellent fuel efficiency (besides the fact it is no pre-chamber engines, but direct injection ones).
I have taken several chances to talk to Taxi company owners and operators, and most of them can tell true horror stories, esp. regarding the CDIs and the W211. The majority of these stories have to do with electronics - and engine electronics has a big share in that. And even if you are under factory warranty, every failure costs money - and taxis only earn money when they are on the road, not at the dealership.
So it's no wonder the MB market share in the German taxi business has come down from ca 70 per cent to ca 50 per cent (the latter depends on the source) and if you look around you find a lot of VWs (Passat, Sharan, Touran and some T4 and T5 vans). Some German language reading here http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2006/01/03/519322.html The search string for google is MB taxi marktanteil
And also with other things there are more problems with the W210 than with the W124, many of them related to the heavily added electronics, but also the known rust problems due to cheap fabrication are nothing I like (e.g. door frames rusting - DC fixes that for free, but you can't use the car for three or so days and most customers do have to pay for a loaner car. And YES, I know very well of the W124 typical problems, from the windshield-wipers over the ignition lock to to the rear axle).
So again, that's my very personal opinion only and I know the majority thinks different, they want (note: _want_, NOT _need_) more power. And of course for not-so-good drivers a faster car is better as it's easier to compensate for their multiple inabilities than with a slower car: With the latter you have to look a long way ahead of the MB star to keep it running as acceleration is so slow - I have learned my lessons more than 20 years ago with 55 PS and 60 PS 200D auto sedans.
Juergen - 72 PS W123 240D, sedan, auto, mechanical steel sunroof, power steering, central locking, center armrest front, stereo cassette radio, right- hand outside rear-view mirror, metallic paint, that's all... And as an exception to my usual habit to talk in the usenet about the 240D only: Also a 130 PS VW Passat 3BG Variant Diesel TDI with lots of gimmicks like Navi, Xenon, heated seats, auto climate control, tiptronic auto trans, power glass sunroof, ABS, ESP, ASR, CD-Changer, multi- function display, tempomat, front and side-airbags, remote central locking, auto dimmable rear-view mirror, factory alloy wheels, chromed roof rack rails, sports seats etc. blah blah blah...
Dori A Schmetterling - 11 Jun 2006 18:37 GMT From here and a previous comment you made you are saying that the 72 PS car is a 200, not a 240D? I.e. 2.0 l engine?
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
>> gas... The W124 are probably one of the most reliable of all MB series... >> good balance of electronics and not overloaded with complexities... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Juergen Juergen . - 14 Jun 2006 00:54 GMT > From here and a previous comment you made you are saying > that the 72 PS car > is a 200, not a 240D? I.e. 2.0 l engine? W123 200D = OM 615.940 = 2L = 55 PS, later 60 W123 240D = OM 616.912 = 2,4L = 65 PS, later 72 W124 200D = OM 601.912 = 2L = 72 PS, later 75
Juergen
Richard Sexton - 09 Jun 2006 12:53 GMT >I am looking for a car for my wife (baby on the way and my wife's 91 >Ford escort won't cut in anymore) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >My alternative is to buy another Toyota for a bit more $$$ The cars a worth owning. Look in Atlanta.
 Signature Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
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