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Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / July 2006E class and triim spec query
All, (First time here so please forgive any poor form etc) I am looking to buy an E class estate in the near future ... what does Avantgarde and Elegance mean in terms of trim level etc? Is the 4.3 V8 as good as it should be? What are the diesels like? I imagine an E200 is pretty slow!? Any top tips for me as to what to look for or avoid? many thanks in advance Steve Elegance = more relaxed with wood trim and gentler colours. Avantgarde = more butch with dark colours/black interior and a blueish window tint. Check out a Mercedes website. An E200 (or any other car) is not "slow" per se. It depends on what you want. how much money you want to spend and to what extent you wish to pose. Take a test drive. DAS For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- > All, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Steve > I am looking to buy an E class estate in the near future ... Good move - best estate on the market > what does Avantgarde and Elegance mean in terms of trim level etc? Dori already said something about it. The direct link to the price list is <http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/media_library/unitedkingdom/mpc_unitedki ngdom/passenger_cars/products/pdfs/e-class_estate_price.object-Single-MEDIA.down load.tmp/E-Class%20S211%20PL%20FINAL.pdf> which shows very clearly what is included in which package. > Is the 4.3 V8 as good as it should be? Yes, it is. Great engine. BUT you can not have it in the current E-Class so it would be E350 or E500. > What are the diesels like? Very - and I mean VERY - fuel efficient. Here in Germany where diesel is cheaper than petrol it is clearly the #1 choice amongst buyers. In the UK where diesel is as expensive as unleaded (with the diesel even having the tendency to be more expensive) your only benefit is from the reduced fuel consumption. But depending on your type of driving it can make noteworthy savings: An E320CDI (224 hp) delivers an urban fuel consumption of 26.7 mpg, an E280 (231 hp) petrol delivers 20.5 mpg. That means that at the pump you have to pay 30 per cent more for the pertol-powered E280. > I imagine an E200 is pretty slow!? It has an Kompressor (supercharger) engine with 184 hp, a top speed of 138 mph and needs 9.7 seconds from 0-62 mph (auto trans) - if that's slow for you, YES, then it's slow! > Any top tips for me as to what to look for or avoid? > many thanks in advance It depends on you and your wants and needs. So first should be to select the engine (and also take things like purchse prices and insurance premiums into account when comparing petrol and diesel engines). Then think about how long you will own that car - the sooner you will sell it the more important is to flow with the masses in respect to body colour etc., e.g. try to sell here in Germany a red MB... ===:-(( Then think about technical things: Do you want auto trans or shift? (I very, very clearly recommend auto). Do you want parameter steering? Do you want a multifunction steering wheel? Order the rear sidebags. etc. pp. Concentrate on the things which make driving safer, easier and more comfortable like heated seats or parktronic. And DO order the sunroof, a climate control is NO substitute for a sunroof!!! (and at least here in Germany a sunroof is a MUST when you try to sell an E-Class) After all that check your budget and if there's still room think about unimportant things like bigger alloy wheels and such. If you give a budget and an engine as well as some basic info (Where do you drive? City? Country? Motorway? Mostly alone? Often with cargo? and such) I'm sure you could be given a more detailed recommendation. Juergen I almost regret buying a 320 instead of a 430 in 2001 but with an additional cost of about GBP 5000 (or more?) and a low mileage/low car use I felt I could not justify it. It's not as if I can't reach 200 km/h pretty quickly in the 3.2... Not that I can fully justify the car as a whole anyway (CLK Cab), but that's another matter... BTW, Jürgen, what's parameter steering? Diesel is now always more expensive than petrol in the UK (taxed at the same rate as petrol, I think), but diesel-engined car sales are still rising. And which gallon do you mean???.. :-) DAS For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...] >> Is the 4.3 V8 as good as it should be? > [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > Juergen > BTW, Jürgen, what's parameter steering? <http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/unitedkingdom/mpc/mpc_unitedkingdom_webs ite/en/home_mpc/passenger_cars/home/products/new_cars/sl-class_roadster/overview /driving_dynamics.0005.html> Cite begin: This is responsive power steering that adjusts to your speed to give you the optimum amount of assistance at all times. This means you get less assistance when you´re enjoying the open road, and more when you´re manoeuvring or parking in a tight spot. (cite end) Personally I like it. > Diesel is now always more expensive than petrol in the UK (taxed at the same > rate as petrol, I think), but diesel-engined car sales are still rising. I just had a quick look at the UK site http://www.petrolprices.com/ > And which gallon do you mean???.. :-) As I got the figures from the MB UK website I assume it's those gallons used on these little island where people drive on the wrong side of the road and Jaguars don't have paws but tyres... ;-)) Juergen See below. DAS  SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- >> BTW, Jürgen, what's parameter steering? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Personally I like it. DAS: Isn't it always like this? >> Diesel is now always more expensive than petrol in the UK (taxed at the >> same [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > people drive on the wrong side of the road and Jaguars > don't have paws but tyres... ;-)) DAS: Good, good. A proper gallon. As regards the correct side of the road, I shall take this opportunity to remind you that Britain has been driving in the left since Roman times. On the Continent it was a mess even within the German states. It was only old Napoleon who imposed driving on the right on all the parts of Europe he occupied.... :-)))) And I am sure you know why driving on left is more natural, even of the original reason is not really relevant anymore.... ;-) > Juergen > Dori A Schmetterling wrote: [snip] > DAS: Good, good. A proper gallon. As regards the correct side of the > road, I shall take this opportunity to remind you that Britain has been > driving in the left since Roman times. On the Continent it was a mess even > within the German states. It was only old Napoleon who imposed driving on > the right on all the parts of Europe he occupied.... :-)))) > > And I am sure you know why driving on left is more natural, even of the > original reason is not really relevant anymore.... ;-) I must concur after spending time in Australia. I have no idea why I felt that way. A very fascinating book about driving is *Rule of the Road* by Peter Kincaid (1986), ISBN 0-313-25249-1 Most of information from his book is also found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_hand_drive Very interesting details in the article, e.g. the situation in the Russian Far East. I agree with the bit under Vehicles. Before my xenons I used to buy a mask when driving across to the Continent. With my new car (2001) with xenons I did apply a mask once or twice but it wa snot obvious how it actually working and now I don't bother. I was also interested in seeing that a number of countries that have banned cars with the steering wheel on the 'wrong' side. Very silly and pointless. DAS For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...] > Most of information from his book is also found here: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_hand_drive > Very interesting details in the article, e.g. the situation > in the Russian Far East. Yes. > I was also interested in seeing that a number of > countries that have banned cars with the steering > wheel on the 'wrong' side. That was new to me. > Very silly and pointless. Weel, I think it depends on the number of vehicles with the steering wheel on the _wrong_ side: If it exceeds a certain percentage - whichever it is exactly - then the dangers may cause too many critical situations and accidents. Personally I am _very_ cautious when driving in Britain and overtaking (motorways and dual- carriageways excluded here) because I have to drive a significant amount sideways into the direction of the oncoming traffic before I can see if it is safe to overtake. Just a couple of days I saw an old Nissan Micra here in Germany with German plates and RHD - very unusual with a simple used car, although not so uncommon with historic British cars like Jaguars, Land Rovers etc. pp. Juergen >> Very interesting details in the article, e.g. the situation >> in the Russian Far East. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That was new to me. Thailand and South Africa come to mind. They do not allow the importation and registration of left-hand drive vehicles. Finland does not allow its citizens to own and drive RHD vehicles. Henri Helanto, a wealthy Finn with so much money and imagination on his hand, spent about a year, converting his 1989 Nissan Skyline GT-R (R32) to left-hand drive. http://www.helan.to/henri/gtr/index.html Australia doesn't allow the LHD vehicles unless you happen to live in Northern Territory and South Australia (both of them have large American military presence). Now, many Australian states are permitting the vintage LHD vehicles to be registered for 'show' with restrictions. USA doesn't care which side the steering wheel is at as long as the vehicle complies with US regulations. >> Very silly and pointless. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > not so uncommon with historic British cars > like Jaguars, Land Rovers etc. pp. I saw a right-hand drive late-1990s Saab 93 hatchback with German numberplates a few months ago. > Juergen See below. DAS For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...] > USA doesn't care which side the steering wheel is at as long as the > vehicle complies with US regulations. DAS: Like in UK. There is (or was) a minor market in LHD vehicles in the UK. When I returned to Britain from Germany in 1982 I brought with me an LHD Merc (bought from a Hamburg dealer). Drove it in England two years then sold it (to a Portuguese, who planned to take it to Portugal). Anyway, some (new) cars are not available as RHD. > I saw a right-hand drive late-1990s Saab 93 hatchback with German > numberplates a few months ago. DAS: Where was that? (country?) Maybe a military vehicle? Recently I noticed that the US forces plates in Germany look more like German plates at first glance now. Maybe the British ones do, too, now? { I am not often in the 'British zone of West Germany'...:-) } Just curious, Dori, but why is it more "natural"? The driver is next to the center of the road/lane in either case. I really can't see and difference, other than confusion on the road for visitors who are used to another system. I feel I'd get dizzy. :-D James "As regards the correct side of the road, I shall take this opportunity to remind you that Britain has been driving in the left since Roman times. On the Continent it was a mess even within the German states. It was only old Napoleon who imposed driving on the right on all the parts of Europe he occupied.... :-)))) "And I am sure you know why driving on left is more natural, even of the original reason is not really relevant anymore.... ;-) " think swords and chariots etc.... :-) cheers, guenter >Just curious, Dori, but why is it more "natural"? The driver is next to >the center of the road/lane in either case. I really can't see and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >"And I am sure you know why driving on left is more natural, even of the >original reason is not really relevant anymore.... ;-) " Exactly so! Thanks for picking this up as James O'Riley's post did not show up on my computer. DAS For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- > think swords and chariots etc.... :-) > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>to another system. I feel I'd get dizzy. :-D >>James [...] Hi Chaps, Many thanks for your most useful replies. Juergen - I like your approach to buying a car ... Some background When we first had the kids 5 years ago we swapped from "toy" cars to a Volvo 850 Estate T5 ... very safe for the kids, and very fun for me when no kids aboard ! However with the second kid I no longer earned enough to keep it front tyres so I traded in for a Xantia Estate Hdi - fantastic engine and suspension but very average everything else - especially load space! I reckon the E-class must have the biggest load space of all sensible estates and I want a lot of load space! I am not looking to buy new, but looking at ebay I think I could afford a 99/00 model at sub £10k which still looks like a lot of car for the money! So engines ... the supercharged 200 doesn't sound underpowered at all! A big V8 is always nice, but I am deeply impressed with the massive torque of modern common rail diesel engines. Also I know I'd have too much fun with a fast petrol car again so a decent diesel it has to be. Are all the CDIs common rail engines? All the Es I've looked at seem to be fully loaded with electric everything, parking sensors etc - I haven't noticed parameter steering being mentioned though ... would all Elegance or Avantgarde models come with the same level of finish or is it purely cosmetic with the elecric features being independant options? I intend to own it for around three years probably and will write off the cost so I 'm not too bothered about resale value. So any colour would do - anyway the colour is those looking at it , not driving it ;-) We do very little town driving (we use bicycles!) so most usage would be camping trips and touring , and with two kids this would clearly be fully loaded! I'm looking for a safe comfortable fast load carrier ... Any further thooughts or guidance gratefully received All the best Steve >> BTW, Jürgen, what's parameter steering? > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Juergen what d'ya think of these candidates ... ? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&item=190008322969&rd=1&ss pagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3APIC&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=001&item=110010293616&rd=1&ss pagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&item=180006735195&rd=1&ss pagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 atb S > Hi Chaps, > [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] >> >> Juergen > what d'ya think of these candidates ... ? A) NEVER EVER buy a used car sight unseen - NEVER!!! From photos you can NOT see enough to make a correct decision! B) In ANY case DO inspect the car (and all paperwork) BEFORE you place any bid. C) See A)!!! > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&item=190008322969&rd=1&ss pagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3APIC&rd=1 pre-MOPF, Elegance, colour ok, 150 PS 4-cyl, mileage seems ok. BUT _Seller: lmtrading2006( 0 ) Member: since 04-Jun-06 in United Kingdom Registered as a private seller_ and _This car was recently taken in part exchange and as opposed to taking to our local car auction we are putting our cleaner part exchanges on ebay. All of these cars will be sold as seen with..._ which makes it a dealer. Personally I would not buy from them - yes, that could be unfair as they may be the super-duper most honest dealer around, BUT... > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=001&item=110010293616&rd=1&ss pagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 MOPF, Avantgarde, leather - BUT red metallic a no-no here in Germany, not to speak of V8 engine. Free dealership, might be ok, might be not. Warranty supposed to be inferiour to MB warranty. Mileage seems ok. If colour and engine are ok, watch auction when the promised additional info and photos are added. > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&item=180006735195&rd=1&ss pagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 MOPF, Elegance, silver metallic, very low mileage (real? Or odometer fraud?), service history - BUT who knows what happened to the car when the thief/thieves drove it?? Private seller, no warranty. Of course others may have opinions different to mine. > atb MfG > S J Hi Steve, > suspension but very average everything else - especially load space! I > reckon the E-class must have the biggest load space of all sensible estates > and I want a lot of load space! Yes, I think so (but the current Opel/Vauxhall Vectra is _very_ roomy, too, and next year's Mondeo is said also to be so). The point is that coming from a - say - VW Golf estate an MB E-Class is _huge_ car, with all its advantages, but also with it's disadvantages (parking, narrow streets). > I am not looking to buy new, but looking at ebay I think I could afford a > 99/00 model at sub £10k which still looks like a lot of car for the money! Yes, BUT... The point is, these cars are very complex, there is an awful lot of electronics involved, many black boxes, and with the 210-series E-Class also three fuse boxes in different locations - that means, if anything goes wrong it can get costly plus you need a good garage. That's why I bought my last car, a 2003 VW Passat estate, from a Volkswagen dealership, it includes a 1-year European wide warranty and I'm free to choose any European VW dealer I like for warranty repairs. I think one year is well enough to sort out any initial problems such a complex used car may have. And _yes_, it _is_ more expensive to buy at a stea... aeh: dealership, but if anything major fails (turbo, black boxes, auto trans etc.) it otherwise could run into the thousands (not only with Euro, but with pounds, too). > So engines ... the supercharged 200 doesn't sound underpowered at all! A > big V8 is always nice, but I am deeply impressed with the massive torque of > modern common rail diesel engines. Also I know I'd have too much fun with a > fast petrol car again so a decent diesel it has to be. Are all the CDIs > common rail engines? Yes, BUT... With the W210 (the estate is S210) E-Class there was a MOPF in 1999 - a MOPF is a MOdellPFlege, a face-lift. You can read more on my old site at http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/9323/w21099.htm Before MOPF _here in Germany_ the engine line for S210 was (4MATICs left out): (1997) E200T 136 PS 4-cyl normally aspirated E230T 150 PS 4-cyl normally aspirated E420T 279 PS 8-cyl normally aspirated E290T Turbodiesel 129 PS 5-cyl Turbo, direct injection, not CR (1998) E200T 136 PS 4-cyl normally aspirated E240T 170 PS 6-cyl normally aspirated E320T 224 PS 6-cyl normally aspirated E430T 279 PS 8-cyl normally aspirated E55T 354 PS 8-cyl normally aspirated E290T Turbodiesel 129 PS 5-cyl Turbo, direct injection, not CR E300T Turbodiesel 177 PS 6-cyl Turbo, pre-chamber (1999, still before MOPF) petrol identical with 1998 E220T CDI 125 PS 4-cyl Turbo, Common Rail E290T Turbodiesel 129 PS 5-cyl Turbo, direct injection, not CR E300T Turbodiesel 177 PS 6-cyl Turbo, pre-chamber (2000, after MOPF) E200T 136 PS 4-cyl normally aspirated E240T 170 PS 6-cyl normally aspirated E280T 204 PS 6-cyl normally aspirated E320T 224 PS 6-cyl normally aspirated E430T 279 PS 8-cyl normally aspirated E55T 354 PS 8-cyl normally aspirated E220T CDI 125 PS 4-cyl Turbo, Common Rail E270T CDI 170 PS 5-cyl Turbo, Common Rail E320T CDI 197 PS 6-cyl Turbo, Common Rail For 2003 - when the new E-Class W211 already was out - the S210 was still in production and got the 200 Kompressor engine, 4-cyl w/supercharger and 163 PS As you can see quite a number of different engines over the time and very few CDIs before MOPF. > All the Es I've looked at seem to be fully loaded with electric everything, > parking sensors etc - I haven't noticed parameter steering being mentioned > though ... would all Elegance or Avantgarde models come with the same level > of finish or is it purely cosmetic with the elecric features being > independant options? YOU are asking questions... ;-) Ok, digging deep I found a GERMAN price-list for 2002 which states that (amongst other things) _Elegance_ in addition to _Classic_ has - 4 courtesy lights located down in the doors - inner rear-view mirror and driver's side outer rear-view mirror automatically dimable - interiour light package - leather steering wheel - wood trim burred walnut root (Classic = zebrano) - 11-hole alloy wheels w/215/55 R16 7,5J x 16 - some parts outside like door handles in body colour - chrome on top of bumpers and side strips _Avantgarde_ has: - 4 courtesy lights located down in the doors - inner rear-view mirror and driver's side outer rear-view mirror automatically dimable - interiour light package - leather steering wheel - instrument cluster backgrounds grey - wood trim bird's eye maple wood - 5-hole alloy wheels w/215/55 R16 7,5J x 16 - front grille inlay painted black - rear lights brilliant with grey - body lowered - blue tinted glass all-around (others = green) - Xenon headlights w/ headlight washer system - some parts outside like door handles in body colour - chrome on top of bumpers and side strips Avantgarde was more expensive than Elegance, ca. 2/3 more. > I intend to own it for around three years probably and will write off the > cost so I 'm not too bothered about resale value. So any colour would do - > anyway the colour is those looking at it , not driving it ;-) You can see it from the inside with the housings of the outer rear-view mirrors... ;-) > We do very little town driving (we use bicycles!) so most usage would be > camping trips and touring , and with two kids this would clearly be fully > loaded! I'm looking for a safe comfortable fast load carrier ... Then maybe a manual shift may be an alternative to auto trans. > Any further thooughts or guidance gratefully received 210-series E-class had some problems, one being rust(!). Check very carefully the upper door-frames (where the black rubber is) for any rust. Juergen (also W123 = _E-Class_ from mid-70s to mid-80s) Hi Juergen, Thank you SO much for your words of wisdom. I shall take the time to fully digest your data and review my position. I'll keep looking at ebay to get a feel for the market and arrange some test drives to get a feel for the cars! thank you again for your time Steve > Hi Steve, > [quoted text clipped - 158 lines] > > Juergen (also W123 = _E-Class_ from mid-70s to mid-80s) I would agree that for a mixture of a touch of class, large load space a fairly dense dealer network across Europe. the C-Class Estate is hard to beat. But what of you are comparing with a large Volvo? (That used the be non plus ultra of estates in the UK - and probably in Europe.) DAS SignatureFor direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...] > The point is that coming from a - say - VW Golf estate > an MB E-Class is _huge_ car, with all its advantages, > but also with it's disadvantages (parking, narrow streets). > >[...] Even more like plastic wood.. ;-) Elegance and Avantgarde are upgrades from Classic, and differ a bit between themselves. I think the most important thing to look at the difference in cosmetic appearance because it is optically quite significant. The Avantgarde is indubitably wearing an Armani suit on a photo-shoot. DAS For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...] - (Classic = zebrano) [...] |
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