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Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / August 2006

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ABS - exactly how does it work?

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Guenter Scholz - 19 Aug 2006 01:07 GMT
OK, I know how it works... however, maybe I'm not so sure of the details.  If
I understand correctly, sensors sense 'lock' up and release brakes.... what
exactly makes the sensors realize that the car has or is about to stop and
the wheels are not simply locking up.... what am I missing to distinguish the
two situations.... ie how do the brakes 'know' that the wheels have locked up
or that they've stopped? ..... push came to shove I could'nt figure it out

cheers, guenter

`
trader4@optonline.net - 19 Aug 2006 02:29 GMT
> OK, I know how it works... however, maybe I'm not so sure of the details.  If
> I understand correctly, sensors sense 'lock' up and release brakes.... what
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> `

Here's my guess.   During brake application, it's looking for uniform
decrease in speed from all 4 wheels.   If it sees one wheel suddenly
decrease in speed compared to the other wheels, it knows that wheel is
starting to skid and releases pressure on it until it comes back to the
speed of the other wheels.   In a normal braking situation, there will
be a continuous progression from all wheels spinning at virtually the
same speed to all wheels stopping at the same time.

Now I guess the pathological case could be where you're going at 50 and
suddenly hit the brakes so hard that all 4 wheels lock up and stop
turning simultaneously.   How it knows that is an all 4 locked wheel
condition vs that the vehicle has stopped is an interesting question.
Perhaps it's done by knowing that the car couldn't have stopped from 50
in just x secs?
WÇY - 19 Aug 2006 09:10 GMT
>OK, I know how it works... however, maybe I'm not so sure of the details.  If
>I understand correctly, sensors sense 'lock' up and release brakes.... what
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>`
There is a good explanation at
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/anti-lock-brake.htm
WÇY
mcbrue - 19 Aug 2006 17:51 GMT
And of course it is based on the good old fashioned Teutonic atitude
that crickets live only to keep man happy and safe. So it has a strong
psychological component also. Hence it it VERY expensive to work on as
the wrench need to be well versed in sonic physics, psychology, and
very small animal husbandry. As we all know, crickets are sensitive to
temperature. Specificaly, their output of sonic energy is proportional
to their temperature, with each cricket having a different constant of
proportionality which introduces even further complexity and expense
into this system. What happens is that a little cricket house gets
built on each axel of the kar. This house is sort of like the houses
used in reality shows in that there are sonic pick-ups in each room. As
the velocity of the kar increases, the friction on the bottom of the
house increases and so does the sonic output of the cricket. This is
picked up and transmitted to the central computer which has to be
factory calibrated for the different cricket sound frequencies,
intensity, and basal rates of emission. Then any deviation from the
normal is simply converted to pressure on the brakes in that wheel. Of
course there are some problems with the colder climates where these may
be used, but that is covered by the use of the famous freezer crickets
of the Swedish bikini team. In fact, it was the late development of
these crickets in Sweden which delayed this safety development by
several decades.

mcbrue explainingly under the bridge in the trailer down by the river

96 S420
Dori A Schmetterling - 20 Aug 2006 01:04 GMT
I didn't think Germans knew what cricket is, let alone know the rules.  That
there is a chain* between two wickets and, you know, when you're in you can
be bowled out... that sort of thing...

DAS

*chain =  22 yds

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling
---

> And of course it is based on the good old fashioned Teutonic atitude
> that crickets live only to keep man happy and safe. So it has a strong
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> 96 S420
greek_philosophizer - 20 Aug 2006 14:46 GMT
Americans are far more knowledgable than Germans.

We at least know the wicket should not be sticky although we also do
not know what wickets are.

What I find interesting is that they took ABS and incorporated it into
the Electronic Stability Program ( ESP ) and with the Sprinter they now
have Adaptive ESP which adapts to whatever load the vehicle has.

In my case the vehicle load will probably be 1 or more all terrain
vehicles, motorcycles, coolers, large speakers, mattresses and   other
assorted camping equipment.

Additionally, who is Jason Barlow and why does he talk funny?

http://www2.mercedesbenz.co.uk/content/media_library/unitedkingdom/mpc_unitedkin
gdom/vans/products/new_vans/sprinter/Sprinter_Jason_Barlow_video_15MB_mov.object
-Single-MEDIA.tmp/Sprinter_Jason_Barlow_15mb.mov


.

.

> I didn't think Germans knew what cricket is, let alone know the rules.  That
> there is a chain* between two wickets and, you know, when you're in you can
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> >
> > 96 S420
greek_philosophizer - 20 Aug 2006 14:52 GMT
I have to get a real usenet feed - google truncated the link!

Here it is again with newlines inserted so you have to remove them....

http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/media_library/unitedkingdom/mp
c_unitedkingdom/vans/products/new_vans/sprinter/Sprinter_Jason_Barlow
_video_15MB_mov.object-Single-MEDIA.tmp/Sprinter_Jason_Barlow_15mb.mov

If it still does not display, hit reply and the entire link will
display.

.

> Americans are far more knowledgable than Germans.
>
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> > >
> > > 96 S420
OM - 21 Aug 2006 07:59 GMT
Jason Barlow is the editor for Car Magazine as well as car reviewer for
various media.

[snip]

> Additionally, who is Jason Barlow and why does he talk funny?
>
> http://www2.mercedesbenz.co.uk/content/media_library/unitedkingdom/mpc_unitedkin
gdom/vans/products/new_vans/sprinter/Sprinter_Jason_Barlow_video_15MB_mov.object
-Single-MEDIA.tmp/Sprinter_Jason_Barlow_15mb.mov
greek_philosophizer - 21 Aug 2006 16:36 GMT
Well then that settles it.

If he likes the Sprinter then it must not be too bad a vehicle.

Now if I could only get DaimlerChrysler to take my money for a 2007....

.

> Jason Barlow is the editor for Car Magazine as well as car reviewer for
> various media.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >
> > http://www2.mercedesbenz.co.uk/content/media_library/unitedkingdom/mpc_unitedkin
gdom/vans/products/new_vans/sprinter/Sprinter_Jason_Barlow_video_15MB_mov.object
-Single-MEDIA.tmp/Sprinter_Jason_Barlow_15mb.mov
Guenter Scholz - 19 Aug 2006 20:18 GMT
Many thanks, good explanation there.  What they don't make to clear is how
they ascertain that the wheel has slowed down too fast.  quite easy to do
though, likely some kind of induced voltage which increases with rate of
deceleration of the cog wheel/sensor ....

On ice, I assume, this mechanism would need some kind of fine tuning....

cheers, guenter

>>OK, I know how it works... however, maybe I'm not so sure of the details.  If
>>I understand correctly, sensors sense 'lock' up and release brakes.... what
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>http://auto.howstuffworks.com/anti-lock-brake.htm
>WGY
The Spanish Inquisition - 21 Aug 2006 08:18 GMT
> Many thanks, good explanation there.  What they don't make to clear is how
> they ascertain that the wheel has slowed down too fast.  quite easy to do
> though, likely some kind of induced voltage which increases with rate of
> deceleration of the cog wheel/sensor ....
>
>  On ice, I assume, this mechanism would need some kind of fine tuning....

I've always pictured it to be much like a mouse movement sensor (you
know, the old kind with the ball).

http://www.picotech.com/auto/waveforms/abs_generic.html

I guess a digital circuit would count the pulses and if it has to wait
too long for the next pulse, the wheel must have stopped. If you combine
this with knowledge about the maximum regular braking effect of the car
the ABS controller can predict from the two last pulses how long it
should be before it receives the next pulse. If that pulse is late, the
wheel must have blocked and the system reduces the brake pressure to
that wheel until it sees the next pulse.

Doesn't sound to difficult once you get it in the digital domain ;)

Ximinez
Signature

Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...
and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....
http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/paulfitz/spanish/t1.html

drd - 21 Aug 2006 12:16 GMT
> Many thanks, good explanation there.  What they don't make to clear
> is how they ascertain that the wheel has slowed down too fast.  quite
> easy to do though, likely some kind of induced voltage which
> increases with rate of deceleration of the cog wheel/sensor ....

you're exactly right - it's called a Hall effect sensor ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_effect#Wheel_rotation_sensing

atb

Steve
Jens - 21 Aug 2006 18:46 GMT
Well, not quite.

A Hall effect sensor is used to measure magnetic field strength, and
there is nothing magnetic involved.

What's used is a socalled proximity switch. It consists of a coil,
which is part of an oscillator circuit. When a metal object gets close
to the coil, the frequency of the oscillator will change slightly
depending on the distance and the metal. By monitoring the frequency,
the internal circuit will determine whether metal is present or not,
thereby swtching the output on or off.

There is a "toothwheel" attached to the wheel hub, and the proximity
switch is facing this with a small distance. When the wheel turns, the
teeth of the toothwheel will pass the switch with different distance
between top and bottom of the teeth, causing the output to pulse
according to the speed of the wheel.

/Jens

> > Many thanks, good explanation there.  What they don't make to clear
> > is how they ascertain that the wheel has slowed down too fast.  quite
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Steve
Guenter Scholz - 21 Aug 2006 23:22 GMT
Thanks for ALL the replies.... much appreciated.  I now understand ABS :-)
Had the wheel off and see the ring gear at the end of the universal... the
proximity counter is there to measure the frequency... I guess the chip that
does the evaluation of the rpm and deceleration is somewhere under the dash.

cheers, guenter

ps  I am suprised that some do not use this for acceleration control to keep
from burning rubber....  probably I'm just not aware... not sure I would
want this myself though  ;-)

>Well, not quite.
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>>
>> Steve
drd - 22 Aug 2006 00:54 GMT
> Thanks for ALL the replies.... much appreciated.  I now understand
> ABS :-) Had the wheel off and see the ring gear at the end of the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> to keep from burning rubber....  probably I'm just not aware... not
> sure I would want this myself though  ;-)

I believe Volvo do this for their traction control system

I'm sure sure Jens will be able to confirm and elaborate   ;-)      (as he
does actually know what he's talking about ... )

atb

S
Me - 22 Aug 2006 06:47 GMT
>> Thanks for ALL the replies.... much appreciated.  I now understand
>> ABS :-) Had the wheel off and see the ring gear at the end of the
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> S

Don't remember which MB the OP had but most/all modern MBs have a traction
control system called ASR (Antriebs-Schlupf-Regelung). It is using the ABS
sensors, using brakes (as an immediate and fast control) as well as engine
power control to stop wheel slip.
mcbrue - 23 Aug 2006 04:29 GMT
I still like the concept of the Swedish Bikini Team keeping those poor
little freezer crickets nice and warm! Rotating spokes indeed! Ole Tom
B and I proved back in High School that the proximity sensors could be
built but cost too darm much to do any good in scare circuits placed
around the chicks places to hang.

mcbrue capacitatively under the birdge in the trailer down by the river

96 S420
Jens - 23 Aug 2006 19:11 GMT
PS: Many ABS errors are caused by oily dirt between the teeth, so the
proximity switch will not pulse correctly according to the speed. The
ABS computer will detect this as an error and go to fail safe mode. So,
if the ABS light turns on, try first to clean ABS rings (toothwheels)
on all wheels.

/Jens

> Well, not quite.
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> >
> > Steve
 
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