Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / September 2006
MB reliability
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Rob - 01 Sep 2006 04:42 GMT In the 1990s, Mercedes-Benz had a classic car commercial.
A husband arrives home late and tells his wife, "My car broke down." The wife slaps him in the face. She does not believe her husband's Mercedes could break down.
Today, nobody would understand the advertisement. For many Mercedes drivers nowadays, breaking down is part of the ownership experience.
It took 90 years to build Mercedes' image of quality, and less than 10 years to damage it severely.
Dieter Zetsche has been directing the brand's fate for a year. The quality of Mercedes cars has noticeably improved over that period, but a year is much too short a time to expect lasting results.
Renewing Mercedes
Zetsche has cut jobs and operating costs at Mercedes, but that was relatively easy compared to what now lies ahead. His most important job is to renew the Mercedes brand.
The star emblem on every Mercedes model once signified that customers were getting the safest and most reliable cars that money could buy. Mercedes owners also knew they were buying a car with the highest level of workmanship.
But this unique image was needlessly abandoned in favor of excessive sportiness and a gratuitous pursuit of horsepower records, coupled with dubious model decisions and an unrestrained niche strategy.
Mercedes has wasted its energy on new vehicles such as the A-, B-, R- and GL-class models and the SLR McLaren.
No one really knows what the brand stands for anymore.
Chasing niches
The Maybach ultraluxury sedan highlighted the misguided trend of chasing niches.
The Maybach damaged Mercedes' claim that the S-class upper-premium sedan was the best luxury car in the world. It also maneuvered the company into an awkward situation: Mercedes cannot quietly close the limping Maybach brand. Its customers are important people, and they are not likely to go along with this.
Until recently, Mercedes, with its Smart and Maybach brands, risked losing its way. The task now is to raise the profile of the core Mercedes brand.
Mercedes has to build the most reliable car -- not the fastest.
Zetsche's statements over the past few months are an indication he has recognized this. But it takes years, not months, to turn around the image of a brand such as Mercedes. There will be setbacks along the way.
Guido Reinking is editor of Automobilwoche. You may e-mail him at greinking@craincom.de
And they've got a l-o-o-o-o-o-ng way to go!
T.G. Lambach - 01 Sep 2006 17:51 GMT The scribbler makes good, but obvious, points. We sure know about the quality issue and the vast number of models blurs the brand image.
Our prosperity (even if debt financed), owners' lack of technical knowledge and cars' increasing complexity make all brands a "throwaway" item, not something to be repaired and overhauled. 1950s M-B models had a lot of oil cups, grease fittings and mechanical adjustments; their maintenance was extensive and very expensive - something that's overlooked when hearkening back to days of yore.
Cars' high technology and robot manufacturing have shifted some production costs from variable to fixed so there's huge volume incentive to move product out the door at ever thinner margins. And customers have to be created to buy all this stuff. So market niches get chased to "do something". It may strike gold or make as much sense as when RCA bought Hertz Rent-A-Car. The Smart Car a case in point, IMHO.
Even though Dr. Z's Chrysler ads go over the top of too many heads I believe he'll be able to focus M-B's marketing into a more unified brand image (although an economic recession may be needed to force some decisions).
Juergen . - 01 Sep 2006 20:32 GMT (cited Guido Reinking, editor of Automobilwoche)
> Mercedes has wasted its energy on new vehicles > such as the A-, B-, R- > and GL-class models and the SLR McLaren. No, not quite: - A-Class sells well - B-Class is an A-Class derivate only, sales here in Germany better than I thought - GL was needed, it is the _new G-model_, the original G-model still in production due to mainly demand of military buyers - R-Class was a foreseeable flop - SLR mainly was a McLaren development. Is also built at McLaren in the UK.
What is definitely missing is the Vaneo (W414) flop.
> The Maybach ultraluxury sedan highlighted > the misguided trend of chasing > niches. No, it was the DC attempt to proof they could be better than Bentley and especially Rolls-Royce. However, DC grossly misjudged the brand name and the potential number of buyers, especially as VW (Bentley) and BMW (Rolls-Royce) did better jobs than obviously expected by DC.
> The Maybach damaged Mercedes' claim that the S-class upper-premium sedan > was the best luxury car in the world. That was a claim by DC only - nothing more. And yes, I know that a special kind of S-Class drivers suddenly felt their "best luxury car" which they even now were very proud of turned into a second-class product. But they felt to realize that at that time MB S-Class wasn't the leader in the segment.
> It also maneuvered the company > into an awkward situation: Mercedes cannot quietly close the limping > Maybach brand. Its customers are important people, and they are not > likely to go along with this. Of course they could close the brand anytime. But they will not do (in the next 5 years or so).
> Until recently, Mercedes, with its Smart and Maybach brands, risked > losing its way. The task now is to raise the profile of the core > Mercedes brand. Smart is a desaster - not only financially (more than 7000 million (seven thousand millions) Euro burned), but also from an engineering, marketing and sales point of view; same desaster BMW had with Rover, only Smart was (and is) much more expensive.
> Mercedes has to build the most reliable car -- not the fastest. The days of the most reliable car are over since the W123 models went out of production. And with overly-complex modern cars and buyers only wanting more power and more luxury and gimmicks that situation can not be re-vitalized.
> Zetsche's statements over the past few months are an indication he has > recognized this. Z is the right man at the right place at the right time - but it's not easy to change things within such a huge corporation like DC.
> But it takes years, not months, to turn around the > image of a brand such as Mercedes. Yes, it will take up to ca. ten years until all models (then) are what they should be (now).
> There will be setbacks along the way. Of course.
Juergen
MMansilla - 01 Sep 2006 21:28 GMT Mercedes is losing its strategic position as a manufacturer of superior-engineered, highly reliable automobiles, at a premium price. This position was unique and valuable for its targeted customers for so many years, allowing the company to prosper, until now.
In today's hypercompetition however, managers in general, are constantly tempted to take incremental steps that surpass the limits of the company distinctive position, bluring it. Eventually, pressure to grow or apparent saturation of the target market leads managers to broaden its position by extending product lines, adding new features, imitating competitor's popular products, matching processes, making acquisitions, etc.
Through incremental additions of products varieties, incremental efforts to serve new customers groups, and emulation of rival's activities, MB has begun weakening its value proposition, and eroding its clear competitive position.
MB has to do the opposite of what has been doing lately. It has to look at its core of uniqueness, and to deepen it. And this is not about nostalgia for the "good ol' days", it's about the company's future profitability.
OM - 01 Sep 2006 21:48 GMT Daimler-Benz originally wanted to buy Rolls-Royce in the 1990s. They even had the 'new' Rolls-Royce Silver Spirit built with W140 chassis. However, Rolls-Royce had better idea and sold its soul to BMW. Even though Phantom was so ostentatious and so monstrous, it was well-received than Maybach.
I surmised the failure of Maybach was from the design and equipment perspectives as well as from name. Maybach hadn't been used since its demise in 1930s whilst Rolls-Royce continued albeit ageing and stale chassis and design. People associate Rolls-Royce with ultimate attention to the detail and quality as well as reputation for luxury. With Maybach, it's more of 'what's that'?
When I looked at the Maybach for the first time, the first impression I got was that it was none other than the 'W220 with fur coat'. I saw lot of equipment commonality between W220 and Maybach that I didn't see the justification of paying more for the 'name'. Steering wheel, control buttons, front seats are from S-Class and SL-Class. Now, W221 has inherited that 'Maybach' hump.
I must give BMW credit of keeping the part commonality between Rolls-Royce and its lesser BMW products as invisible as possible. I know the Phantom has BMW V12 motor enlarged to 6,75 litres and tuned specifically for opulent performance. Yet, I don't see any of BMW equipment in the interior other than iDrive which is gratefully can be stowed away.
Whilst Phantom has its unique body chassis, Maybach 57 and 62 are from the old W140 body chassis which was extensively modified. Originally, DaimlerChrysler wanted to use W220 body chassis and dressed it up for Maybach, but it was too 'weak' structurally (?). It was also originally called 'Mercedes Maybach', but the survey amongst the wealthy clients showed otherwise.
Now the W221 S600 is more technologically advanced and better equipped than Maybach 57 or 62 so I don't see the justification of paying almost more than twice the price of S600 for obscure Maybach. With designo programme, I can have all of fantasies done within the reasons...
If I was Dieter Zetsche, I would order the extensive change to the design and equipment as to separate Maybach ever further from the common Mercedes-Benz products. Perhaps a first-ever modern V16 motor in the offer? A sidenote: no V16 motor has been offered officially since the last one in 1940 with Cadillac Series 90. (No, Cizeta-Moroder V16 T from 1991 to 1995 is not a true V16)
> In the 1990s, Mercedes-Benz had a classic car commercial. > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > And they've got a l-o-o-o-o-o-ng way to go! Rockman59 - 02 Sep 2006 00:10 GMT Mercedes needs to get back to building a quaility car. One that is engineered to last and to deliver performance and a quality ride and control. Get rid of the automatic trunk closers, and all that add on stuff that you just don't need. Concentrate of motor, tranny, etc and AC that lasts. Make the DVD and Nav optional for those who want it. For those who don't they can get a quality car without all the electrical junk that causes most of the problems...... ____________________________________________
> Daimler-Benz originally wanted to buy Rolls-Royce in the 1990s. They even > had the 'new' Rolls-Royce Silver Spirit built with W140 chassis. However, [quoted text clipped - 101 lines] >> >> And they've got a l-o-o-o-o-o-ng way to go! Unknown - 06 Sep 2006 21:56 GMT > Mercedes needs to get back to building a quaility car. One that is > engineered to last and to deliver performance and a quality ride and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > don't they can get a quality car without all the electrical junk that causes > most of the problems...... ding ding, give that man the prize.
mercedes had the major stuff years ago and started integrating more and more gadgets which were cutting edge likely to cause probs.
nowadays you can get a single din car stereo with slide out 7" touch screen and 80gig hard disk for £140 on ebay. that gives you dvd and divx player, as well as a massive mp3 sound system, i would guess the only thing stopping it offering satnav would be a way to get a gps position{1} and some programming.
now if you can fit all that functionality into a box the size of a car stereo at a £140 retail imagine how much trouble shooting can be avoided. Any one of them goes wrong and rather than have mercedes workshop staff checking out stuff on the clock at £80 an hour then they can swap over the stereo in a few mins and send the whole unit back to the chinese sweatshop for repair/refurbishment.
The more they modularise the electronic gimics the easier trouble shooting and swapping out bits becomes, i can only imagine what sort of probs the selfdrive stuff is going to cause. unfortunately if the really critical stuff isnt well made then you may as well buy a toyota.
The rate of electronics/software development is so rapid that any idea mercedes comes up with will be in every other cars next year model, hell if they thought it was good business they could even release patches for current models.
{1} if cell phones have i the internal chips must be tiny,so such a unit would only require an external aerial link
Dori A Schmetterling - 02 Sep 2006 00:15 GMT I have never seen that advert but the sentiments were commonly applied to Rolls-Royce (in the UK at least). One apocryphal story that did the rounds many years ago was something about a Brit who broke down in France (or somewhere abroad), called RR, who came to collect the car put the man in a fancy hotel for a night or two. Eventually the car was returned and at the end of his trip the man expected to see a bill for repairs and accommodation.
Being the honest chap he was he called RR after a period of not seeing an invoice. At RR nobody knew about an outstanding bill or admitted to anything, and he was told, "Sir, a Rolls-Royce does not break down."....
About 25 years ago (that's a guess) I remember reading that three-quarters of all Rolls ever made were still on the road, a record. Whether that's true today is doubtful.
As regards niches, I remember reading that the successful automobile company of the future would be one with a large number of smaller (niche?) model runs, not with just a few huge selling models (which was the business model at the time). DC is a major proponent of this philosophy and does turn a profit, even if at the top (Maybach) and bottom ends (Smart, a special story, however) it has made big mistakes.
In my opiniont the Maybach is nothing but an ego trip for the then management.
MB's real and major business disasters were not car mistakes but excursions into business areas about which it knew nothing but thought it could handle, and I am talkimg about houdehold good and aerospace. Huge sums of money were wasted and management time diverted.
Did this management forget that MB was already a very large company making a big range of products for various market segments? (Cars, lorries, vans and buses). They used to bleat about the government subsidies for private companies in aerospace, then they bought in and went cap in hand for subsidies. The (German) government could not refuse and so poured tax-payers' money into MB's bottomless pit. The argument for aerospace was "synergy" (management's fig-leaf when they have no real reason), when Saab Cars' exit from aircraft (and BMW's absence) proved you did not need to produce jets to produce good cars.
It is not that long ago since aerospace became unimportant for MB and maybe some lessons have been learned. Maybe Zetsche will succeed but, as Juergen indicated, as a big job for one man, so we have to hope he has a large team of sensible managers behind him.
And... I have had my CLK for 5 years -- admittedly only for 21 000 miles -- but has performed pretty well. No major issues. Started first time every time even after long breaks (e.g. two weeks+).
My 190 is from 1993, so it does not count as being from the 'new' times, I suppose. It had some major repairs but is still running nicely. Its low mileage (75 000) and running rate is against it (short journeys mostly) but, so far, so good...
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
> In the 1990s, Mercedes-Benz had a classic car commercial. > > A husband arrives home late and tells his wife, "My car broke down." The > wife slaps him in the face. She does not believe her husband's Mercedes > could break down. [...]
> Mercedes has wasted its energy on new vehicles such as the A-, B-, R- and > GL-class models and the SLR McLaren. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The Maybach ultraluxury sedan highlighted the misguided trend of chasing > niches. [...]
> And they've got a l-o-o-o-o-o-ng way to go! Dori A Schmetterling - 02 Sep 2006 00:53 GMT ...household goods... Grrrrr...
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
>I have never seen that advert but the sentiments were commonly applied to >Rolls-Royce (in the UK at least). One apocryphal story that did the rounds [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] >> >> And they've got a l-o-o-o-o-o-ng way to go! Hazey - 04 Sep 2006 19:53 GMT > As regards niches, I remember reading that the successful automobile company > of the future would be one with a large number of smaller (niche?) model > runs, not with just a few huge selling models (which was the business model > at the time). DC is a major proponent of this philosophy and does turn a > profit, even if at the top (Maybach) and bottom ends (Smart, a special > story, however) it has made big mistakes. What I believe you are referring to is an extremely in depth study done in the early 1990s for the industry as a whole trying to give them some sense of where the industry was going in the future, and the resultant advice to the entire industry was that brand loyalties were going to break down and older brands who relied on their past brand identity would be competed into oblivion. The result was the fragmentation of the industry by not just Mercedes but pretty much every car company with Toyota attacking Buick, VW trying to be Mercedes with the Phaeton, Hyundai moving into the mid-level price range. It isn't just Mercedes, and the result of this strategy by all who followed it was the over production of products that no one wanted from the manufacturers who made them. Smart was the attempt to reopen a closed class once dominated by the FIAT 500/600 and the Mini. Personally, I think that it was a good idea, but the margins are thin, and they disn't pursue the niche with new designs fast enough. It was a design driven model.
> In my opiniont the Maybach is nothing but an ego trip for the then > management. Agreed. Mercedes couldn't let BMW [Rolls] and VW [Bentley] have a super-luxe if they didn't have one. The problem with the Maybach over the Roller is that it didn't have the brand loyalty, and Bentley was a driver's car so not a direct competitor with Rolls. The Maybach also looked far too much like an S Class Mercedes which was damaging to both brands.
> And... I have had my CLK for 5 years -- admittedly only for 21 000 miles -- > but has performed pretty well. No major issues. Started first time every > time even after long breaks (e.g. two weeks+). I am happy that your CLK has worked well for you. My mother-in-law's CLK 55 AMG needed an entirely new block within 2,000 miles of ownership, a new infrared key start system at 5,000 or so, the electric brakes are constantly scewing up and sending messages to the message board, it has eaten half a dozen ignition coils and the car just turned 30K.
But this is the thing. She went out and bought a new Mercedes C Class as a spare car last week. No matter how much I have tried to convince her that just about anything would be a better car icluding and especially a Cadillac, she bought another Mercedes anyway, and that is the thing about Branding. People still key on "German Engineered" which as a phrase is about as influential as "A diamond is forever". It is complete BS today to aggrandize German engineering because the German car companies universally are building the worste product in the world particularly if you think of value for money.
The entire point of a brand, and the reason you bother to brand a product ahs changed in the last twenty years. 80 years ago brands were created to make sure that a factory could consistently sell its output and build market share against other factories whose products weren't as good. The point of brand today is to capitalize on the locked in value of that 80 years of good will, unlock it for short term profit and leave the brand in the dust as the current officers retire to Majorca. The failure of course is with the boards of these companies who have failed to hire officers who will not destroy the company and the boards also fail to manage the officers whom they have hired.
Of course there is one other major driving force behind the funneling down of the German auto industry, and that is the insanely high cost of labor in that country. Entry level assemblers to the most highly compensated machinists are all paid multiples on the scale of similar positions in other industrialized nations such as the United States, but that isn't really the problem. Germans now get standardly over month's vacation a year, and the cost of socialized medecine and education, creating a class of permanent students, have placed burdens on the German economy that burdens the car industry as a part of it. That fact made necessary Robot manufacture, which has not been nearly as successful for the German as they would have liked.
I met a couple recently who are in their late sixties and who have many hundreds of millions of dollars. Five years ago they bought their first Mercedes to replace and aging Oldsmobile. They had always bought and been happy with GM cars, but their children convinced them to buy a Mercedes S Class. They loved how it drove, but it was towed to the dealer multiple times in the 5 years 60,000 miles they had it, and at 60,000 the air ride suspension went, a major brake failure, and the fuel injection or computer system ate itself (the dealer was unable to determine what the actual problem was). They traded it on a lexus. It isn't surprising that they traded in on a lexus. What surprised me was that if Oldsmobile was still in business, they would have bought another one, but their children again convinced them to buy Lexus instead of Cadillac.
I think what I am trying to get at is that brand loyalty is a very powerful thing because it means that people don't have to think about the products that they buy, and they can concetrate on those thihgs which actually interest them like their jobs or families. How damaged Mercedes will be by the time that it is able to stabilize its tremendous manufacturing and engineering issues can only be known once they have solved those issues which will be many, many years from now. Mercedeses problems are driven by fundemental economic and social problems in Germany and in their corporate structure. Those sorts of issues are not resolved by simply the Chairman simply willing them away.
> My 190 is from 1993, so it does not count as being from the 'new' times, I > suppose. It had some major repairs but is still running nicely. Its low [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > > > And they've got a l-o-o-o-o-o-ng way to go! Dori A Schmetterling - 05 Sep 2006 00:34 GMT One good rant deserves another...:-)
Maybe I mean the study you mention, though the thrust that I remember was not so much about brand loyalty but about the ability to produce a lot of different products or maybe just versions, and react quickly with new versions.
In this sense perhaps MB has made a better fist of it than GM, which (in the US) has so many confusing legacy brands. And who is making more money? Not Ford and GM.
The article was an attempt to predict which way things have to go to continue a strong position in the market. Well, I suppose there are as many opinions as there are auto industry analysts...
Sometimes I wonder how MB would have done if they had kept the number of models down, e.g. no CLK and spin-offs, no CLS etc, and kept the quality up. Many years ago (>20?) (I don't seem to do anything these days...) I read that in Germany every third German wanted a Merc but only every tenth had one. Maybe this had something to do with Merc gearing up production and reducing waiting periods. Buying a car out of showromm was practically unheard of...
But, we must not forget, MB car sales have been and are still rising, breast-beating and rants in this NG notwithstanding. Maybe this has something to do with the brand loyalty 'inertia' you mention, maybe not.
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
>> As regards niches, I remember reading that the successful automobile >> company [quoted text clipped - 137 lines] >> > >> > And they've got a l-o-o-o-o-o-ng way to go! Hazey - 05 Sep 2006 15:50 GMT Yes, we are talking about the same study. It reccomended the movement of manufacturers from their traditional manufacturing positions, say luxury cars, into other niches, say lower cost high volume vehicles, because their brand images did not resonate with the younger consumers who were coming of age in the market place. That is a break down of brand image. In other words, older Middle class buyers saw owning a Mercedes as a tacky showy car, and they would never buy one. Their kids didn't have that hang up about Mercs. The problem with this cahnge in brand identity is that if a manufacturer is in the wrong segment, and the segment dies then the manufacturer would go with it. The safety net is for all manufacturers to be in all categories. It's costly, but it would mean that they would have an offering ready whereever the market went, but the study also opened opportunities for manufacturers to gain market share in categories that they had never been able to compete in before say mercedes in the $25,000 category where their cars had traditionally been seen, at least in the US, as tacky and showy and nice people drove Oldsmobiles. Well, we see what happened to Olds, however, I believe that this study was correct in that it is no longer considered tacky or showy to own a Mercedes and lots of people are gravitating to the percieved status and feeling OK about showing off by owning one a Merc, but the fragmentation in product that the study implicitly advocated led to the dissolution of focus for the companies who went that route. That's what I was trying to say, and I'll drop it. I also won't bother going into GM because it would be difficult to explain to a non-American, but GM is an interesting case in the way that they handled that study.
MMansilla - 05 Sep 2006 20:06 GMT > But, we must not forget, MB car sales have been and are still rising, > breast-beating and rants in this NG notwithstanding. Maybe this has > something to do with the brand loyalty 'inertia' you mention, maybe not. Indeed, sales have been rising lately. For instance, the Mercedes Car Group sold 325,500 vehicles in the second quarter of this year, surpassing the figure for Q2 2005 by 6%. The Mercedes-Benz brand increased its second-quarter unit sales by 6% to 291,000 vehicles.
That third who wanted a Mercedes years ago, now seems to be getting one.
But reliability is deteriorating. In a recent US based, independent report, MB´s reliability scored poorly, with 327 problems per 1000 vehicles, well above the 269 / 1000 industry average.
Efforts to grow could be bluring MB's uniqueness, and undemining its competitive advantage.
Dori A Schmetterling - 05 Sep 2006 23:46 GMT That's what I think, but despite the ease of getting a Merc and its lack of exclusivity the brand is still selling well. C-Class is in top 3 in Germany, for example (the BMW 3 is up there, too, of course).
At the end of the day what matters is rising profits, not rising exclusivity.
(I say that even against the background of MB's fluctuating profitability).
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
[...]
> Efforts to grow could be bluring MB's uniqueness, and undemining its > competitive advantage. MMansilla - 06 Sep 2006 16:54 GMT > At the end of the day what matters is rising profits, not rising > exclusivity. Yes. If this growth leads to profitability (sustainable over time, and over industry average), even sacrificing reliability and exclusivity, then M-B will be creating enough value for its customers and shareholders with its new strategic position.
If this is the case, the reliable car´s days are probably gone. Maybe forever, and for good a darwinian could add.
We will see... Meanwhile I will have to take better care of my - at risk of extintion -durable Mercedes.
Hazey - 06 Sep 2006 19:54 GMT Yes, what you are describing is precisely the process of brand debasement and the unlocking of built up brand good will by selling a not so good car for too much money.
> Yes. If this growth leads to profitability (sustainable over time, and over > industry average), even sacrificing reliability and exclusivity, then M-B > will be creating enough value for its customers and shareholders with its > new strategic position. However, I quibble with this statement in one small facet. Mercedes is absolutely unlocking short term value for its shareholders, and consequently its officers whose compensation is tied to share value, but it is not unlocking value for its customers. Make no bones about it, the customers are being fleeced for the benefit of the shareholders.
MMansilla - 07 Sep 2006 16:15 GMT No. If superior (above industry's average) profitability is achieved AND maintained, then the company will be actually creating long term value. Maybe not the same value that M-B usually delivered (and the one that we liked), but value at the end. To both, customers and shareholders.
But yes. Probably M-B is more near the situation you described than the ideal one I do. It´s the growth trap. The desire to grow has perhaps the most perverse effect on strategic positioning. Often managers are more focused on short term stock price performance rather than on long term return on invested capital which, of course, in this case includes the huge brand's value.
Hazey - 07 Sep 2006 16:30 GMT > No. If superior (above industry's average) profitability is achieved AND > maintained, then the company will be actually creating long term value. Yes, this is true. If value is created and MAINTAINED then there is long term value created for the company and the shareholders, but I still disagree that the customers necessarily see a gain from the creation of long term value for shareholders. They should but it isn't necessarily true. It could be the customers will be purchasing a product of lower quality for more money. That is using a brand, and it can easily be seen in companies such as Louis Vuitton, but this strategy finds the balance for the company between what the market will accept and cost, maximizing profit potential. That's fine.
However, I doubt if long term value is being created here at all. Mercedes has certainly increased its sales, but I think that there is a long term cost in their current strategy to their core brand values that will damage long term profitability. I have spoken to more than one long term multicar Mercedes owner who is leaving the brand, and when the brand becomes tarnished, the new buyers will find the brand du jour and move to that brand leaving Mercedes without its core customer base. That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it.
> But yes. Probably M-B is more near the situation you described than the > ideal one I do. It´s the growth trap. The desire to grow has perhaps the > most perverse effect on strategic positioning. Often managers are more > focused on short term stock price performance rather than on long term > return on invested capital which, of course, in this case includes the huge > brand's value. MMansilla - 07 Sep 2006 23:38 GMT I saw clearly your point and I'm agreeing with you. Buyers do not pay for signals of value per se, and it seems that lately the Mercedes emblem on the hood of new cars is no longer signaling the presence of durability and reliability. The sales growth figures could be healthful so far, but with the reliability of its vehicles currently at 8% below the average of the automotive industry, the long term financial perfromance of the company is compromised. That way they are not creating so much value. In fact it is the opposite: the value that was built throughout almost a century is now possibly being partially destroyed. Or maybe to a certain extent transfered, as you suggested before, to the pockets of some officers through compensations tied to short-term share prices performance.
However, that vision seems somewhat catastrophic, and although disasters in business are not infrequent, this formidable company deserves a little consideration. That´s why I would wait and see for some time the consistency of its profitability in the balance sheet, before a definitive condemnatory sentence, for the destruction of a so valuable brand.
Hazey - 08 Sep 2006 18:13 GMT Oh don't mind me. I have a tendancy to get very involved in analyses like these. (I think that I am driving my mechanic nuts because although all of the Mercedeses that I have a personal interest in are older, he has a late model C class and hates hearing my theories on Mercedes corporate practices, although he doesn't disagree and is the source of a certain amount of my factual bases.) Also, don't think that I am saying that Mercedes is going to go out of business from this sort of practice. Brands that are built so well are fairly resilient, and this also isn't the first time that Mercedes has had below industry average quality. In 1968 Mercedes addressed severe engineering quality issues along with out moded design in the /8 program where they reengineered their entire model line up, and they then entered what is today felt to be the period of greatest quality and product for them in the post world war two period. Prior to that, my father had a 1962 Mercedes that was probably the worste piece of junk in the history of the world (it would only drive in reverse periodically; the radiator would be fine for six weeks then all of the water would just disappear with no warning; it was under powered; and according to the dealership it was irrepairable), and he left the brand in a huff. He also returned in 1972 when his Peugeot left him in the dust and his Rover, which he loved, dropped its fuel pump on the highway. That's the thing with brand debasement and why managements do it on purpose. It can unlock short term value that injures the long term value of the company, but that good will can be rebuilt later. What could drive mercedes out of business isn't building bad cars or debasing its brand; it's labor costs, and that is what has been driving alot of Mercedeses problems over the last fifteen years. That's a real problem.
Dori A Schmetterling - 08 Sep 2006 23:41 GMT But that, arguably, applies to all Germany-based manufacturing.
Merc produces abroad, e.g. South Africa and the US.
BMW is, labour-wise, in a similar boat, but is the brand under similar attack?
Manufacturing in developed countries will continue as long as it is efficient and adds value. Just because you pay an Bangladeshi labourer tuppence a day doesn't mean you can manufacture EVERYTHING cheaply.
If product quality in a poor country rises the cost will also rise, maybe not quite to 'western' standards, but in same ballpark. An excellent example in my mind is Japan and its development from 1945 to now.
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
[...] it's labor
> costs, and that is what has been driving alot of Mercedeses problems > over the last fifteen years. That's a real problem. Hazey - 11 Sep 2006 07:38 GMT > But that, arguably, applies to all Germany-based manufacturing. Yes.
> Merc produces abroad, e.g. South Africa and the US. Not enough
> BMW is, labour-wise, in a similar boat, but is the brand under similar > attack? Yes, but this isn't a brand problem it is a production problem, and they are different things. And VW and Audi. As for other manufacturing, margins in the car business are usually quite thin due to powerful global competition.
> Manufacturing in developed countries will continue as long as it is > efficient and adds value. Just because you pay an Bangladeshi labourer > tuppence a day doesn't mean you can manufacture EVERYTHING cheaply. Price of labor does not mean good labor. Just because an assembler is expensive doesn't make him better than a less expensive laborer. Take Skoda for example who is very good and quite cheap. Labor costs are driven by general economic conditions and social values of the market in which the manufacturer is located. Priced a house in Germany lately? Mercedes doesn't pay more for German labor because it is getting a better quality of labor, or in other words, they aren't making a conscious choice to pay for more expensive German manufacturing because they think it is better. It pays more because of the connection of labor to government to management in Germany and the social contract which exists in Germany causes a more expensive labor market, which is a negative. They do not move all of their manufacturing from Germany because they can't, and they don't want to. There are more variables that go into the decision of where to manufacture than the cost of one plant over another, but they have made the decision to start manufacturing globally later than most manufacturers and their foot print in other economies is smaller than most manufacturers.
> If product quality in a poor country rises the cost will also rise, maybe > not quite to 'western' standards, but in same ballpark. An excellent > example in my mind is Japan and its development from 1945 to now. Yes. This is also true for Germany who was equally poor after World War two, but the dynamics of this change come from an influx of wealth into the economy from sales both domestic and foriegn, which raise the standard of living for the inhabitants who buy more products who create inflation who need to be paid more for their labor to afford the things that they need. However, the cost of doing business in Germany is higher than other developed nations due to tax based social programs such as but not limited to socialized medecine and education.
I know that Mercedes says that the source of its problems come from new technology in their cars, but that isn't the whole story. If one starts to look at the parts that Mercedes has been putting in their cars for the past fifteen years everything including the window switches have been reengineered with an eye towards cost instead of quality. Things like the plastic oiler caps over the cam shafts that replaced the old steel tube. The caps can crack and fail leaving cams unlubricated and quickly destroyed, whereas the old oiler never failed, however, the caps are cheaper to produce and install. It isn't just new electronic equipment that is failing where equipment never failed. The old systems have been replaced with systems that are cheaper to manufacture and install to cut costs, because labor is a cost that they have been unable to control. That is the driving force behind the decision at Mercedes fifteen years ago to extend the brand, reach for higher sales volumes and new markets with a lower cost to produce product. That decision is a short term decision which devalues the brand today for higher profits today, and the hope that they can reorient the brand for the future by building more manufacturing plants in other labor markets, which will give them the margins to rebuild the quality in the product later and rebuild the brand. Remember that it was in the early nineties that Mercedes Benz's losses caused Daimler Benz to take a red quarter leading to the firing of half of their officers. The new regime needed a new plan, and the quality issues today are the result of that decision fifteen years ago.
That's how I see their current problems.
Dori A Schmetterling - 11 Sep 2006 10:51 GMT See below.
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
>> But that, arguably, applies to all Germany-based manufacturing. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > margins in the car business are usually quite thin due to powerful > global competition. DAS: That's my point, not a brand problem, but your previous statement implied it was. (Or I, perhaps erroneously, inferred it was...)
>> Manufacturing in developed countries will continue as long as it is >> efficient and adds value. Just because you pay an Bangladeshi labourer [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > driven by general economic conditions and social values of the market > in which the manufacturer is located. DAS: Not sure what you mean here, exactly. 'Western' labour is generally high-cost on an hourly basis. I don't think the differences between Germany and other similar places are that significant in the final selling price of a motor car. What matters more is the efficiency of utilisation, obviously. This includes on-costs and degress of flexibility or labour.
Only when efficiencies are similar will differing labour costs make some difference. VW has its most modern plant in the Czech republic and can hence produce high quality cars at a somewhat lower price, but not THAT much lower. ('Old Skodas were cheap and poor, and probably sold at non-commercial prices to the west.) It's not as if a modern Skoda costs half of its Audi-badged equivalent. Anyway, if it did it would cause extra havoc with VW branding image and sales. There is (snob) value in a badge, but only so much. How much would need to be tested, and how expensive and risky that would be for the manufacturer.
> Priced a house in Germany lately? DAS: Priced a house in an equivalent area of Britain lately?
> Mercedes doesn't pay more for German labor because it is getting a > better quality of labor, or in other words, they aren't making a > conscious choice to pay for more expensive German manufacturing because > they think it is better. DAS: I am reminded of an exchange during a Stuttgart factory tour in the mid-eightes, when Merc did not produce abroad. Among the visitors (mostly people who had come to collect their cars personally) and the guide there was a discussion about German labour quality when it was pointed out the majority of the 40-odd-thousand workforce was of Turkish origin...
> There are more variables > that go into the decision of where to manufacture than the cost of one > plant over another, DAS: Agreed.
>> If product quality in a poor country rises the cost will also rise, maybe >> not quite to 'western' standards, but in same ballpark. An excellent [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > two, but the dynamics of this change come from an influx of wealth into > the economy from sales both domestic and foriegn, which raise the DAS: My point was that in my early youth (fifities and sixties) "Made in Japan" was a byword for 'cheap and nasty'. "Made in Germany" never had that connotation. West Germany was temporarily and briefly poor due to war devastation, but started a rapid economic ascent as soon as the new, freed currency (Deutsche mark) was introduced in 1948. Products made in Germany never had a bad reputation for quality.
More modern versions of this change Taiwan and mainland China. Hong Kong is an older example. In Britain goods were marked "empire made" to (try to) disguise the Hong Kong origin.
> I know that Mercedes says that the source of its problems come from new > technology in their cars, but that isn't the whole story. If one starts > to look at the parts that Mercedes has been putting in their cars for > the past fifteen years everything including the window switches have > been reengineered with an eye towards cost instead of quality. DAS: No question that Merc started making to a price instead of the old policy of making a car and then working out the price based on cost. Thing is, everone else (the then big boys Ford, GM, VW et al) were working like this already. Perhaps they could handle it better.
The classic example mentioned was the ashtray cover, which was damped and had this really expensive feel when opened and closed. The damping was removed on cost grounds, though I think Merc realised this was a step too far and reinstated it.
The question that interests me (unanswerable) is what would have happened if Merc Cars had continued on the path of exclusivity and long delivery times, whilst remaining focussed on quality (already-mentioned past problems notwithstanding) irrespective of pricing. Smaller and more profitable? Or declining? Or maybe a niche division of VW or GM? Or bigger than now?
> That's how I see their current problems. Hazey - 11 Sep 2006 15:13 GMT > DAS: That's my point, not a brand problem, but your previous statement > implied it was. (Or I, perhaps erroneously, inferred it was...) H: You erroneously inferred that it was. I was trying to move on to another topic because the whole brand debasement thing is not actually a problem from a business sense. It is a problem for the consumer since it creates a lower quality product, but for the business it is good. It is a way of unlocking short term value. The problem for Mercedes is the cost of production of the vehicle, which for them is too expensive, and I beleive that that is because of labor costs which are much higher than other industrialized nations. Compared to the US, Mercedes pays 30% more for the same work in Germany than in the US even when they are paying the same actual wage to the employee because of the cost of health care, vacation, and labor based taxes. Mercedes chooses to pay nearly twice what the same US UAW labor makes so they could still get the same labor for less.
> DAS: Not sure what you mean here, exactly. 'Western' labour is generally > high-cost on an hourly basis. I don't think the differences between Germany > and other similar places are that significant in the final selling price of > a motor car. What matters more is the efficiency of utilisation, obviously. > This includes on-costs and degress of flexibility or labour. H: I disagree. The hourly rate of a laborer can be the tipping point to unprofitability when margins are thin and competition keeps driving selling prices down. Yes, a plant which is inefficient in the way that it manufactures will never compete in a global arena in which manufacturing processes are similar. More expensive labor markets use more robots and fewer people to keep costs down, which again may lower quality if those robots are ill equipped for the tasks which they must perform. Of course the great example of an inefficient plant which could never compete on the open market was the Rover plant in Birmingham, which didn't even use a stuff up. No manufacturer could have made that plant competitve.
> DAS: I am reminded of an exchange during a Stuttgart factory tour in the > mid-eightes, when Merc did not produce abroad. Among the visitors (mostly > people who had come to collect their cars personally) and the guide there > was a discussion about German labour quality when it was pointed out the > majority of the 40-odd-thousand workforce was of Turkish origin... H: It's a point.
> >> If product quality in a poor country rises the cost will also rise, maybe > >> not quite to 'western' standards, but in same ballpark. An excellent [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > currency (Deutsche mark) was introduced in 1948. Products made in Germany > never had a bad reputation for quality. H: I got your point, but I didn't particularly agree with it. It isn't the raising of the inate "quality" of the product that makes the cost of production more expensive. It is the increase in wealth due to increased sales that makes an economy inflate. That raises the wealth of an area and the costs of good made there. The finest good in the world can be made in a place which is cheap and the increase in its inate quality is great, but if it does not sell then there is no increase in wealth and no inflation.
> > I know that Mercedes says that the source of its problems come from new > > technology in their cars, but that isn't the whole story. If one starts > > to look at the parts that Mercedes has been putting in their cars for > > the past fifteen years everything including the window switches have > > been reengineered with an eye towards cost instead of quality.
> The classic example mentioned was the ashtray cover, which was damped and > had this really expensive feel when opened and closed. The damping was > removed on cost grounds, though I think Merc realised this was a step too > far and reinstated it. H: The ashtray cover doesn't really work as an example since 1) it won't "fail", it will only feel cheaper than the old one (personally, I really hated the change to Japanese style door lock plungers instead of the old silver tipped black ones, which spoke Mercedes to me. They reinstated those as well.) and 2) when we are discussing quality, I bring up the cam shaft thing since that cost a friend of mine around three thousand dollars when his oiler caps failed. As a matter of brand debasement, the ashtray cover is an excellent example, but it is not a quality problem.
> The question that interests me (unanswerable) is what would have happened if > Merc Cars had continued on the path of exclusivity and long delivery times, > whilst remaining focussed on quality (already-mentioned past problems > notwithstanding) irrespective of pricing. Smaller and more profitable? Or > declining? Or maybe a niche division of VW or GM? Or bigger than now? H: That is an interesting question, and it is unanswerable. I think that the company would be in much, much worse financial shape than it is now, but I think that I would have made my last car a Mercedes (assuming it was still in business) than the Mazda that I did buy. The Mazda has all the luxury goods in it that I want without the goo-gawery, and it works much better than a new Mercedes for half the price. Mercedes to me is my '72, and if I had one, the greatest Mercedes of all time in my opinion, a 1980 300SD. Those cars were tanks and drove like tanks. The choices that Mercedes have made in the past fifteen years concentrating on gadgetry to sell cars and cheapening the actual assembly of the car has turned them into a 1974 Cadillac to me, and that is a very, very bad thing.
Dori A Schmetterling - 11 Sep 2006 20:47 GMT Below.
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
>> DAS: That's my point, not a brand problem, but your previous statement >> implied it was. (Or I, perhaps erroneously, inferred it was...) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > nearly twice what the same US UAW labor makes so they could still get > the same labor for less. DAS: The extras are one element, but so is labour flexibility. In general my understanding is that many US companies operate more efficiently than many European ones.
See the debates going on especially in France and Germany about not only the social welfare add-ons but also work hours.
>> DAS: Not sure what you mean here, exactly. 'Western' labour is >> generally [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Birmingham, which didn't even use a stuff up. No manufacturer could > have made that plant competitve. DAS: I have a good example from the late eighties in a field with which I am more familiar (no later data available to me). Active drugs (the therapeutic component of pharmaceuticals/medicines) were imported (or not) into India under three categories. The interesting one was where imports were permitted despite local production. The imports had about 100% in various duties and taxes added, doubling their price.
Beause there was price control the prices were published on a regular basis, making it easy to compare the price of a drug made in India and abroad, typically western Europe or USA. What was surprising was that the import often cost similarly or less than the local stuff...
Now, you could argue that the local producers were simply setting higher prices against the imported benchmark, and maybe that was true in some cases, but I don't think in most cases, because a substantial margin would ensure higher sales.
In short, utilisation of labour in India was -- and maybe still is in many sectors -- abominable. So its low cost per hour was irrelevant.
A friend was in a car factory and wondered out loud how they managed to produce any cars at all.
[...]
>> DAS: My point was that in my early youth (fifities and sixties) "Made in >> Japan" was a byword for 'cheap and nasty'. "Made in Germany" never had [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > inate quality is great, but if it does not sell then there is no > increase in wealth and no inflation. DAS: In an international marketplace this is not so important. High-end cameras, e.g., are unaffordable for the vast majority of Chinese, but this is irrelevant if they are made for customers in Britain and the US. The quality of the product can be raised by, e.g., buying materials and components on the open world market instead of deplying shoddy locally made items. Quality assurance is a state of mind as well as a process, required to make quality products right first time every time A shoddy local product might cost a pound. The imported one three pounds. Ergo the assembled items must necessarily rise in price.
>> > I know that Mercedes says that the source of its problems come from new >> > technology in their cars, but that isn't the whole story. If one starts [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > debasement, the ashtray cover is an excellent example, but it is not a > quality problem. DAS: Agreed. I should have made that clearer. (Brand debasement.) But I wonder if the line isn't somewhat blurred. Maybe Merc did not fully test on the vast scale required. Maybe they thought the "cam shaft thing" would survive, but it turned out to be an expensive mistake? And how common is this failure? After all, there are very durable engineering plastics around.
>> The question that interests me (unanswerable) is what would have happened >> if [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > actual assembly of the car has turned them into a 1974 Cadillac to me, > and that is a very, very bad thing. DAS: About a year ago I rented a fairly decent Volvo and I was quite impressed at how solid it felt, almost 'Merc-like' (and my 2001 CLK Cab feels very Merc-like...)
Hazey - 12 Sep 2006 21:51 GMT > DAS: About a year ago I rented a fairly decent Volvo and I was quite > impressed at how solid it felt, almost 'Merc-like' (and my 2001 CLK Cab > feels very Merc-like...) The '74 Caddy comment was directed more at the last model S Class. I have yet to drive the current S Class and therefore have no comment about it. To me the lack of recirculating ball steering, the over boosted power steering and the too insulated air ride suspension reminded me of the Cadillac. The W140 S600 that I've been driving around lately really makes me think of a Mercedes even though it too has an air ride suspension and over boosted steering yet somehow it comes across with that teutonic feeling in a big way when it digs into a corner or hauls butt up the highway. The model CLK you have I have driven as a 2004 CLK 55, and I love it as a driver (reliability not so much, but it drives great [accepting the brakes]). I think that that is a fabulously lithe car and quite comfortable. My personal feeling is that it's the best driver in the mercedes line up right now, but I have not driven all of them, and of course it is just being replaced.
Hazey - 12 Sep 2006 22:02 GMT Thank you for the discussion. It has been very interesting, and at this point I think that we have beaten the horse dead. I find your points in the last post true enough. All the best - H
David J - 11 Sep 2006 19:32 GMT <snip>
>DAS: My point was that in my early youth (fifities and sixties) "Made in >Japan" was a byword for 'cheap and nasty'. "Made in Germany" never had that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >an older example. In Britain goods were marked "empire made" to (try to) >disguise the Hong Kong origin. Re post-WW2 recovery in W Germany
Late 1980s found me working for a year in Dusseldsorf in the offices of Mannesmann. I asked several of the local workforce about their 'miracle recovery' in the 1960/70s. The only new thing I learned was that all overtime worked by W Germans then was tax-free. Quite an incentive to get the country on it's feet again!
Re pricing
Not cars I know, but my daughter works in Book Publishing. I asked her once why a book imported from the US priced at $US20, was being sold in the UK at £20.
She told me that 'this price is what the local market will stand'.
My understanding is that is the principle of the sales pricing for all goods everywhere.
David
Dori A Schmetterling - 11 Sep 2006 20:24 GMT That may be true but the bottom line is cost (calculated one way or another). If your costs are GBP 18 you cannot sell at USD 20 for any sustained period. Which is why the mass garment industry has largely disappeared in the 'rich countries'.
DAS
For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling ---
[...]
> She told me that 'this price is what the local market will stand'. > > My understanding is that is the principle of the sales pricing for all > goods everywhere. > > David MMansilla - 11 Sep 2006 22:38 GMT > equipment that is failing where equipment never failed. The old systems > have been replaced with systems that are cheaper to manufacture and > install to cut costs, because labor is a cost that they have been > unable to control. That is the driving force behind the decision at > Mercedes fifteen years ago to extend the brand, reach for higher sales > volumes and new markets with a lower cost to produce product. It could be, though it's not easy to imagine that M-B's managers did such a perverse trade-off on purpose.
But supposing that they did it, more than marginally: Today, fifteen (!) years later, IMO the company´s profitability would be already showing the damage, in spite of the resilience of the brand. Profitability could be achieved that way, but not maintained as much time.
The Mercedes Car Group had operating profits of EUR 2.9 billion in 2001, 3.0 billion in 2002, 3.1 billion in 2003, and of 1.7 billion in 2004.
Although in 2005 The MCG posted an operating loss of EUR 505 million, they say that this result was negatively impacted by expenses related to the "continuation of measures initiated within the quality improving program" (!). It is also the effect of "EUR 570 million incurred last year relating to the headcount reduction program, which had been accepted by approximately 5,000 employees (5%) by the end of 2005".
MMansilla - 09 Sep 2006 18:20 GMT I agree with DAS. A company like M-B must incur higher costs to deliver a product for which customers are willing to pay more. Such way of competing comes from performing activities in a different way from its competitors, and it is as successful as the size of the wedge between willingness to pay and total costs. The greater this wedge, the strongest its competitive advantage compared to rivals.
One can think in terms of the tension between this two linked parameters: costs and willingness to pay.
The reliability drop is slowly lowering customers willingness to pay for M-B cars, narrowing that wedge, that allowed the company to command a premium price, achieving superior profitability and outperforming competitors in the past.
On the other hand, there could be some room for lowering labor costs by cutting jobs and reductions in wages and benefits of M-B´s highly skilled labor force, or producing more abroad. But limited to the point in wich those reductions begin undermining the company's differentiation, and therefore again, its customers willingness to pay more.
Anyway, M-B managers say that the loss of reliability is due to the addition of unproven technology to their vehicles too quickly, and that in the future Mercedes will devote more time to testing. It seems simple, just more testing. I don´t know, we have to wait and see.
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