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Car Forum / Mercedes-Benz Cars / October 2006Autoelectrics problem MB C320
hello all, I have been lurking in this newsgroup for little while. Last year, a family member wanted to sell a 2001 model C320. It was a four-year-old car, but only had 14,000 kilometres on the clock (used as a weekend car to weddings and parties etc...). He asked me to advertise it for him, but since the depreciation made the car a huge bargain, I bought it off him. It has now 22,000 km on the clock. Last week, it developed a problem whereby 4 errors appeared on the dash: 1- brake pad wear fault, 2 - fault with ABS, 3 - fault with ESP, 4 - fault with BAS. The car would then lock into the one gear that it was in at the time (it can be first gear or any other gear that it was in at the time). Initially, stopping the car and restarting the car would see the errors disappear and the car would be drivable (which made me think that the engine heat may have helped improve on some of the electrical connection). However every day since then, the problem would take longer to disappear. Today, I had to limp home from work in second gear at 60 km per hour all the way home. I did take the car to Mercedes-Benz for a diagnostic. It was hooked up to a computer, and I was told that the fault lies in the ESP control module. Now here is the cruel part, the part can be replaced as a second-hand unit for about $2500, or a new unit around about $4000 !!!! Now for all the mechanics in this group, is this a common fault, and is this a reasonable repair bill? Could the component be removed and repaired by an electrician for less? This is my first foray into a luxury car, previously being an owner for eight years of a Subaru WRX. The Subaru did throw a fault in the odometer, which cost me $1300 to replace. However, after this experience, I'm thinking of going back to Japanese quality (now looking at the Lexus IS range - much prefer the value of the Liberty range but the missus does not like the interior :-((( ). Although the car is now five years old, the low kilometres makes the experience very bitter. Do you think, that time can be blamed for the unreliability, and should I get rid of the car? In fact, the six CD stacker died only six months into the ownership (and still remained broken). I did find information on the net that the 2001 MB C class can be quite unreliable (apparently especially so in the electrics), but I would have thought that that I could get more mileage out of the car before things like this happen. Although I was told that due to the low mileage, that MB will consider giving me a special price for the part. This is not yet confirmed, however could this be expected from the manufacturer? Cheers < snip etc > > It has now 22,000 km on the clock. Last week, it developed a problem > whereby 4 errors appeared on the dash: 1- brake pad wear fault, 2 - > fault with ABS, 3 - fault with ESP, 4 - fault with BAS. < more snipping involving tales of Teutonic woe > Sorry to digress, but I am not at all surprised by this story. Why do people think Germans make the best vehicles when you frequently hear stories like this? I recall reading an article that talked about Mercedes rushing a bunch of new technologies to the market not so long ago - 2001 era would be about right, and finding chronic reliability problems shortly afterwards. Occam's Razor says that (basically) the simplest solution to a problem is the most likely answer. In terms of automotive design, I feel the Germans could learn a thing or two from applying simple design now and then. [Ford probably could too when it comes to the design of their current V8 (why have double overhead bump sticks when you have an engine so chronically undersquare that spinning beyond 5000 rpm requires massive feats of metallurgy?)] As for your particular problem, I'd be stirring up some action from Mercedes. Start with a dealer and then work up to the state distributor. Once it's fixed, sell the bastard of a vehicle and get a Subaru. Tell your missus she can have the car she pays for. Brett mf1@project1221.com中华人民共和国<המוסד למודיעין ולתפקידים מיוחדיםPT-141& P2 Member - 03 Oct 2006 20:07 GMT > < snip etc > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > people think Germans make the best vehicles when you frequently hear stories > like this? The wood-ducks, thats who, they dont sell the car per-se, they sell the image and ego boost instead German cars have taken a nose dive in quality BIG time, esp. Benz [the other German brands have never been at that level anyway] they fail just as well as any other brand. Frankly they where never that good anyway, the Germans where to busy making propaganda making people *think* that they are better than they actually are.Its ok Holden does that too;-) The difference when a Krut car fails u need to sell your kidney to pay for the repair. You want quality, buy Made In Japan, its the best PERIOD [J.D.Powers anyone], hard to walk away from Japanese quality/engineering etc I still like the 450SEL, it was the last of the super bullet proof Benzs OUT! > I recall reading an article that talked about Mercedes rushing a bunch of > new technologies to the market not so long ago - 2001 era would be about [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Brett In article <1159902479.375987.62850@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>, >The difference when a Krut car fails u need to sell your kidney to pay >for the repair. Utter nonsense. >You want quality, buy Made In Japan, its the best PERIOD [J.D.Powers >anyone], hard to walk away from Japanese quality/engineering etc Thet explains all the 20, 30 and 40 year old Japanese cars you see all the time. >I still like the 450SEL, it was the last of the super bullet proof >Benzs *cough*HVAC*cough*. There's a few later chassis - up to and including the 126 - that still gave the DIY mechanic a fighting chance.  SignatureNeed Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net > Thet explains all the 20, 30 and 40 year old Japanese cars you see > all the time. I see plenty of 20 year old Japanese cars around - probably moreso than cars from any other country, and as for 30 and 40 year old cars, how many do you see regularly from any country? Marco >> Thet explains all the 20, 30 and 40 year old Japanese cars you >> see all the time. > > I see plenty of 20 year old Japanese cars around - probably moreso > than cars from any other country, and as for 30 and 40 year old > cars, how many do you see regularly from any country? [...] Well, in Central Indiana, you see a bunch of 30,40 and 50+ year old American cars being driven. And dare I mention Cuba where a '57 Chevy is still thought of as being a new car? <G> SignatureCheers, Kurt > >> Thet explains all the 20, 30 and 40 year old Japanese cars you > >> see all the time. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > American cars being driven. And dare I mention Cuba where a '57 Chevy > is still thought of as being a new car? <G> Illegal in Cuba with raft and propeller, I presume. Al SignatureI don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html >> Thet explains all the 20, 30 and 40 year old Japanese cars you see >> all the time. > >I see plenty of 20 year old Japanese cars around - probably moreso than >cars from any other country, and as for 30 and 40 year old cars, how >many do you see regularly from any country? Just old Mercedes and detroit iron. It's rare here to see a Japanese car older than 10 years. SignatureNeed Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net > >> Thet explains all the 20, 30 and 40 year old Japanese cars you see > >> all the time. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Just old Mercedes and detroit iron. It's rare here to see a Japanese car older > than 10 years. How much will you give us for a rare '90 model Pintara? :-) It's got Pedders and new tyres. Al SignatureI don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html > Utter nonsense. So they're as cheap as the average Holden or Falcon then? (That's average Australian family hacks to you). They might be cheap to repair in your part of the world, but down here they're horrendously expensive. Why anyone would *want* one is beyond me, as they've always been one of the most over-rated heaps of sh.t on the planet in my opinion. -- Regards, Noddy. > Why anyone would *want* one is beyond me, as they've always been one of > the most over-rated heaps of sh.t on the planet in my opinion. I dunno I was looking at a late 80's MB 280SE it was in great nick beautiful black exterior. But then again I thought if I did buy it the first thing would go would be that little 2.8 litre 6 and in goes a V8 but of course without telling you what V8 would be in there. :-) SignatureRegards Dan >> Utter nonsense. > >So they're as cheap as the average Holden or Falcon then? (That's average >Australian family hacks to you). They might be cheap to repair in your part >of the world, but down here they're horrendously expensive. You're just giong to the wrong people. Seek out John Greene or Davide Frada. The diesels are as chea to maintin as a Holden (and break less) the gas ones probably a bit more dear. SignatureNeed Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net mf1@project1221.com中华人民共和国<המוסד למודיעין ולתפקידים מיוחדיםPT-141& P2 Member - 04 Oct 2006 02:25 GMT > In article <1159902479.375987.62850@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>, > >The difference when a Krut car fails u need to sell your kidney to pay > >for the repair. > > Utter nonsense. Here in Oz [unlike Seppo land] they and the other European cars are a joke to keep running, its pure wallet bashing.. I know the service manager at a authrozied dealer here in Melb., the current crop, ie post 80's Benzs are crap, the $$ turnover of the workshop is mind blowing, EVERYBODY gets raped,,,,,its better than gold....diamond? The 450SEL refer to below is the one he recommends as a bullet proof over built super long lasting Benz, even a panel beater mate of mine said the steel is brilliant, needs more heat than any other car to bash_n_bog, but alas 9MPG and far to old to consider for ownership...besides parts for that are now scarce I am glad you like Benz's, they are ok, but WAY over rated, and not really very good quality for the money they ask OUT! PS NOT interested in ANY car thats 20+ years old [Ferrari and RR excl.] > >You want quality, buy Made In Japan, its the best PERIOD [J.D.Powers > >anyone], hard to walk away from Japanese quality/engineering etc [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net > 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net mf1@project1221.com中华人民共和国<המוסד למודיעין ולתפקידים מיוחדיםPT-141& P2 Member wrote: > > In article <1159902479.375987.62850@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>, > > >The difference when a Krut car fails u need to sell your kidney to pay [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Here in Oz [unlike Seppo land] they and the other European cars are a > joke to keep running, its pure wallet bashing.. GMHCo, ToyCo, or FordCO is prolly a better bet. Grey imports such as 1988 to 1996 or thereabouts Smurfs are fairly cheap to keep on the road too. BTW what the hell is your posting handle: 中华人民共和国<המוסד למודיעין ולתפקידים מיוחדים Actually mean? Your TV aerial is possibly broken but are not sure, you want to, or have visited the eiffle tower in Paris? and I'm not really sure of the rest of it :-) It's too long dude, I can't read the date stamps on posts without expanding the column in Google Groups. In article <1159925150.958407.135340@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, >> In article <1159902479.375987.62850@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>, >> >The difference when a Krut car fails u need to sell your kidney to pay [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >manager at a authrozied dealer That's your problem right there mate. >current crop, ie post 80's Benzs are crap No sh.t. SignatureNeed Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net Actually this is a simple fix. Our E320 had this quirky error message that would disappear upon restart... Error Messages would say BAS Failure, ESP Failure,... visit workshop... then we also had a SOS Malfunction... visit workshop. The solution was very simple... change that battery. Weak battery gives computer false readings hence false errors. I would vote for battery too. Our 96 C280 had some weird electric symptoms, including clock reset, radio locked, and one warning light (forget which one) a few weeks before the battery could not start the car. They never re-appear after changing battery. > Actually this is a simple fix. Our E320 had this quirky error message that > would disappear upon restart... Error Messages would say BAS Failure, ESP [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The solution was very simple... change that battery. Weak battery gives > computer false readings hence false errors. > I would vote for battery too. Our 96 C280 had some weird electric > symptoms, including clock reset, radio locked, and one warning light > (forget which one) a few weeks before the battery could not start the > car. They never re-appear after changing battery. Those are very bizarre symptoms indeed. At least your car kept on going, whereas mine would going to a limp home mode locking into one gear, which is very annoying if you only have one car in the family. I wonder how a manual version would be affected (Does Mercedes Benz have manual cars???) in my case. Cheers. The 96 C280 does not have electronic controlled transmission so there is no limp home. But the interesting thing was, when I replaced the battery, the old one (7 years old age) still had 12+ volts at no load so at first I was not sure if I did the right fix. Then after sitting another few weeks, the battery had less than 10 volts by itself. Recharging did not help. I did not know battery can self-destroy :-) >>I would vote for battery too. Our 96 C280 had some weird electric >>symptoms, including clock reset, radio locked, and one warning light [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Cheers. > hello all, > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > Cheers Does it have a genuine service history that's up to date? If so, you'll need to battle with the dealer who serviced it. The advisors themselves are usually pretty willing to hound MB Aus. for some sort of concession, something like they supply the parts and you pay the labour (meaning the dealer still gets paid the usual). Make a big enough song and dance about it and they will definately come around. If the history is non-genuine, get ready to be made an example of........... Keep us posted? > Does it have a genuine service history that's up to date? > If so, you'll need to battle with the dealer who serviced it. The [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Keep us posted? Yes it does have a full service history. I live in Brisbane QLD, and I have approached both the MB Fortitude Valley and also the Mt Gravatt service centre. The central service centre is very flashy but their customer service is not up to the same standard as the Mt Gravatt branch. They stated that I might get a 25% discount for the part but has anyone ever got a part of that price free when a car is out of warranty (but low mileage?) Cheers. > > Does it have a genuine service history that's up to date? > > If so, you'll need to battle with the dealer who serviced it. The [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Cheers. Family bought a new V6 VW Passat in January 1999, with a 3yr/100,000km warranty. Transmission completely let go in 2004 with 130,000 km on it. Because it had always been serviced on time and at the same VW service, we ended up paying for half the labour of fitting the NEW transmission that was supplied FOC by VW Australia (about $600). It took a fair bit of haggling to get there but we felt we got quite a good result. > > Yes it does have a full service history. > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > that was supplied FOC by VW Australia (about $600). It took a fair bit > of haggling to get there but we felt we got quite a good result. That's not bad haggling at all there, considering that it was out of warranty and reasonably high mileage. I have yet to hear from Mercedes-Benz Australia. The service manager stated that he has e-mailed Mercedes-Benz Australia to request a special price. That was two or three days ago. I wonder how long it would take unless I do some pushing. However, I don't think they would give me a part which they would normally charge $4000. Now that puts the costs for me into perspective, i.e. $4000 for a computer part against $600 for whole new transmission!!! Cheers. > > > Yes it does have a full service history. > > > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Cheers. Discussing this thread with my step-dad last night - apparently from 30,000 he'd mentioned to the service advisor that the transmission didn't feel right and asked the advisor to check it out. He did this at each subsequent service and they kept coming back saying there was nothing wrong. Luckily though, they'd kept records of his concerns (which, BTW, were completely un-related to what caused it to eventually fail) and these records were used by the dealer to show VW Aus. that a problem existed from well within the warranty period. Either way, it was the dealer that did all the haggling on our behalf. I'm sure a suggested offer of a bottle of Wild Turkey or similar to the advisor might have an influence! ; ) > Family bought a new V6 VW Passat in January 1999, with a 3yr/100,000km > warranty. Transmission completely let go in 2004 with 130,000 km on it. > Because it had always been serviced on time and at the same VW service, > we ended up paying for half the labour of fitting the NEW transmission > that was supplied FOC by VW Australia (about $600). It took a fair bit > of haggling to get there but we felt we got quite a good result. So they 50/50'd you and you feel good about it. > hello all, > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > this a reasonable repair bill? Could the component be removed and > repaired by an electrician for less? Disconnect the battery then disconnect and reconnecting the plugs that connect to the module, if your lucky it be just a bad connection. Have a look at the plugs pins when its disconnected and check for any signs of corrosion. Daryl > > Now for all the mechanics in this group, is this a common fault, and is > > this a reasonable repair bill? Could the component be removed and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Daryl hmm... a few have suggested that the battery is the problem, though I have to admit I don't see the logic in this as the battery itself seems to have adequate power to start the car and does not seem weak with the lights on. When MB did the computer diagnostic hook up, the technician said (though not witnessed) that he took the electrical connector off the ESP control module and cleaned it. He said that there is no guarantee it would help. As for disconnecting the battery, I am too afraid to disconnect the battery just in case in a modern car, other electrical system/alarms may need code resettings. Last time I did that to another car - to change the battery, the stereo and alarm played up. And if it is the battery, wouldn't MB not suggested that is where the fault lies, replace it and not suggesting that I should get a $4000 part? Or are they more business minded than they are looking after potential repeat customers. Anyhow, I may consider getting a new battery just to test this theory. Thanks also to Tiger, and also Oz for the tip. Cheers. >>> Now for all the mechanics in this group, is this a common fault, and is >>> this a reasonable repair bill? Could the component be removed and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > to have adequate power to start the car and does not seem weak with the > lights on. doesn't mean it's actually any good ( yes I know it sounds odd) > When MB did the computer diagnostic hook up, the technician said > (though not witnessed) that he took the electrical connector off the > ESP control module and cleaned it. He said that there is no guarantee > it would help. but he didn't disconnect the battery resetting the whole system > As for disconnecting the battery, I am too afraid to disconnect the > battery just in case in a modern car, other electrical system/alarms > may need code resettings. Last time I did that to another car - to > change the battery, the stereo and alarm played up. you might have a pin code problem with the radio , so what... > And if it is the battery, wouldn't MB not suggested that is where the > fault lies, replace it and not suggesting that I should get a $4000 > part? Or are they more business minded than they are looking after > potential repeat customers. you really are naive... 4000$ sale or 100$.. now where do you think the service manager will go considering the wont warraenty the work until fixed.. it might work.. .. oh look we did all that work and replaced tha battery just in case , now it's fixed.. sound familiar ? > Anyhow, I may consider getting a new battery just to test this theory. > > Thanks also to Tiger, and also Oz for the tip. > > Cheers. > > hmm... a few have suggested that the battery is the problem, though I > > have to admit I don't see the logic in this as the battery itself seems > > to have adequate power to start the car and does not seem weak with the > > lights on. > doesn't mean it's actually any good ( yes I know it sounds odd) I can imagine that if the battery is old, the voltage might drop after starting, causing the fault codes. Especially if the car has been left overnight. What I will try tomorrow morning is start the car and let it sit for 5 mins to give the battery some charge before restarting and drive off. > > When MB did the computer diagnostic hook up, the technician said > > (though not witnessed) that he took the electrical connector off the > > ESP control module and cleaned it. He said that there is no guarantee > > it would help. > > but he didn't disconnect the battery resetting the whole system This is more a response to Daryl's suggestion of cleaning the contacts to the ESP control module. > > As for disconnecting the battery, I am too afraid to disconnect the > > battery just in case in a modern car, other electrical system/alarms > > may need code resettings. Last time I did that to another car - to > > change the battery, the stereo and alarm played up. > > you might have a pin code problem with the radio , so what... My time means money. If I have to take time off work to drive to MB to get the codes resetting, it is worth hundreds of dollars (I am in a service industry, if I don't see clients, I don't make money, and I work 6 days a week, exactly when MB service departments open). Of course I can get a relative to take the car but I would then have to borrow a car, too much hassle. > > And if it is the battery, wouldn't MB not suggested that is where the > > fault lies, replace it and not suggesting that I should get a $4000 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > until fixed.. it might work.. .. oh look we did all that work and > replaced tha battery just in case , now it's fixed.. Of course I can understand the business model. But I wonder if this is going to alienate potential repeat customers when their products appear to be inferior, leading to a lifetime (and including potential family and friends recommendation) of product avoidance. I can imagine the short term gain may offset long term benefits for the company. As I said, I am already thinking of trading it in for a Lexus (which has had far better quality satisfaction) No wonder TopGear always seem to rubbish the MB brand, saying that they always break down. Cheers. > sound familiar ? > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > Cheers. Again, what do you have to lose in an original battery and a new battery compared to several thousand dollars of misdiagnosed part? MB dealer in USA diagnosed the E320. That was their solution and it worked. Battery did not seem weak either. Starter was fast and normal. Nothing to indicate bad battery... but that was their answer. I know the battery was original and 5 years old. > MB dealer in USA diagnosed the E320. That was their solution and it worked. > Battery did not seem weak either. Starter was fast and normal. Nothing to > indicate bad battery... but that was their answer. I know the battery was > original and 5 years old. Yes I will get the battery replaced tomorrow. Seems that your MB dealer in the USA knows of the problem. I wonder if they have notified other MB service centres around the world about it. And if so this should have been the initial fix offer. For me, it would seem that either this has not taken place, or the technicians are not keeping up to date, or the MB service department in Australia is trying to rip me off. We shall see after tomorrow I guess if this will fix the problem. I did check with the original owner. The battery was replaced when one year old due to a problem. The current battery is 4 years old. Cheers PS - thanks heaps for your input :-)))) In aus.cars x_d <xdvu@hotmail.com> wrote: > Yes I will get the battery replaced tomorrow. There are devices available now that keep enough power in the car to stop the radio, etc. from losing their settings. If the person replacing the battery uses one of these, you won't need to worry about PIN codes, etc.. Also, the first place to look when a late model vehicle is having sensor problems is the earth wires between the negative post of the battery, the body and engine. It is common to find that the original wires are too small and cause sensor malfunctions. A new battery may well mask a minor wiring inadequacy. SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. > In aus.cars x_d <xdvu@hotmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the radio, etc. from losing their settings. If the person replacing the > battery uses one of these, you won't need to worry about PIN codes, etc.. I learnt a lesson that day disconnecting the battery. However the comment about disconnecting the Mercedes-Benz's battery more or less followed Daryl's suggestion to disconnect the battery to see if that can reset the computers (or at least that's what I thought he was meaning). The Mercedes-Benz does have well marked points where I can connect a set of jumper leads to another car battery whilst I change the faulty one, which should eliminate the risk of having no electricity running through the computers/stereos. As an update, I followed through with charging the battery this morning by starting the car and letting it run. The fault appeared immediately. I left the engine running whilst having breakfast. Stopping the car and then restarting when we were ready to leave saw the errors disappear, and never came back for the day, which does support the theory of a weakened battery. I am still puzzled why the car would start fairly easily, and yet threw the error codes, as I would imagine the voltage and current from the alternator would kick in fairly early. The funny thing is that if Mercedes-Benz and other car manufacturers can make all these sensors for errors, why can't they incorporate a sensor for a dying battery, to indicate when it is time to change the battery prior to other computers throwing all these error codes. I had a look at the size of the battery, and it is quite a large and unusual one labelled N88 (stopping me from running into Kmart or Supercheap to get one). The service station near where I worked had to order one in, which means that I won't be able to get a new battery until tomorrow. Still, I am very disappointed with Mercedes-Benz for not diagnosing the battery as a possible fault. Playing the sceptical consumer, I wonder if the car was in warranty, would I be told differently as to where the fault lies. If the battery replacement solve the problem, I will be the first to ring the Mercedes-Benz service managers, to let them know of my feelings on the matter. For those who may consider buying a Mercedes-Benz, I hope you take all this into consideration. Cheers > Also, the first place to look when a late model vehicle is having sensor > problems is the earth wires between the negative post of the battery, the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 > I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. I think it has something to do with one cell of the battery (6) that is weakened or dying... So I am not surprised... x_d schrieb: >> In aus.cars x_d <xdvu@hotmail.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > to change the battery prior to other computers throwing all these error > codes. This _is_ the battery failure error code. Makes no sense to install an extra battery to wait for the day to come when the main battery is dying. And batteries with a set of microcontrollers cost about 3 times the price of a conventional one. Extrapolation from laptops. Batteries mean life in todays computerized cars is down to 4-5 years. As with tires its wise policy to renew it before 5th winter. SignatureRoland Franzius >> In aus.cars x_d <xdvu@hotmail.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > would imagine the voltage and current from the alternator would kick in > fairly early. A voltmeter across the battery terminals whilst starting may revel whats happening. I suspect because of a weak battery there is a significant voltage drop whilst cranking, the sensors will be operating outside their parameters because of the low voltage and will throw up a fault code. The fault codes would have already been detected before the alternator is charging so a weak battery as the cause makes sense. Maybe the MB computer system should have someway of disregarding fault codes whilst the engine is cranking? Daryl >>> In aus.cars x_d <xdvu@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > Maybe the MB computer system should have someway of disregarding > fault codes whilst the engine is cranking? Have you had any aftermarket electronics installed on the car? My '99 E430 (which I *love*) had seme aftermarket connections to a cell phone booster from the previous owner that was draining the battery. I have similar but not as severe electronic gremlins as the battery discharged over time (the reason he sold it to me cheap). Fixing that electrical "leak" has cleared up all of the problems and I have been running trouble free for 3 years now. > Daryl > >> As an update, I followed through with charging the battery this > >> morning [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Fixing that electrical "leak" has cleared up all of the problems and I > have been running trouble free for 3 years now. Hi everyone, The car does not have any aftermarket electronics installed. Everything was installed by MB including the cradle for the mobile phone. As an update, I had a new battery put in today. $140 later and I thought everything was cured. Picked the car up from the local service station and it ran smoothly. Then on the way home this evening, the codes appeared again! ARGGGGGGG!!!! However, it took 10 mins into the journey before it appeared, and stopping and restarting the car again took the gremlins away all the way home. Surely it can't be a fault in a new battery as it would have appeared soon after starting. I hope the fault does not lie in the ESP control module, but this does not look good. Thoughts anyone? The only other thing I could do would be following Daryl's suggestion of cleaning all the contacts to the ESP module. However, I will consider getting the original owner to bring it into another MB service centre to get a second opinion. However I will see what it does tomorrow morning as for the last few days, the faults appear almost straight away on starting, but does not appear at all on the journey to work. Still yet to hear from MB Australia however on what discount offer I will receive. Looking more like a Lexus IS is coming into my garage soon (though personally an MX 5 hardtop would be much nicer :-))). Cheers. >>>> As an update, I followed through with charging the battery this >>>> morning [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > Cheers. I didn't know MB makes cell phones and who made the all the other things that escaped you ? I wonder.. >> Hi everyone, >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > and who made the all the other things that escaped you ? I wonder.. ??? The owner said "everything was installed by MB", I at least read it that the car has a genuine MB cell phone kit, the cell phone may be after market but one intended for the genuine car kit should not drain the battery dead. Since this was a C-model car, it cannot be the second battery that has caused problems in some E-class cars. I cannot help but sure hope you get good advice and get the car running well and enjoy it. > I didn't know MB makes cell phones The cradle was installed by MB. It was an option when the car was designed back in 2001 and accepts Nokia models. Of course, nowadays, they don't need these cradles (which would become obsolete quickly anyway as phone models change so quickly) as I would imagine the newer models would have Bluetooth options. Cheers. > and who made the all the other things that escaped you ? I wonder.. >> I didn't know MB makes cell phones > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >> and who made the all the other things that escaped you ? I wonder.. I put the phone in a 'lations Kompressor at a fraction of the cost of MB charges ( phone was 400$ cheaper) , it's never missed a beat so it cant be hard to get the install right , now is yours working everything 100% ? > I put the phone in a 'lations Kompressor at a fraction of the cost of MB > charges ( phone was 400$ cheaper) , it's never missed a beat so it cant > be hard to get the install right , now is yours working everything 100% ? A friend bought a 2005 C200 Kompressor recently. He did not order a phone system for his car. Instead, he got a Blueant bluetooth unit which he leaves permanently on his visor. Cost - $180 ish. I guess he doesn't mind recharging it (or put fresh batteries in everyso often) and does not mind not having the feature of dialing via the steering wheel buttons. Anyway, the battery was not the solution. This morning, the fault codes appeared again on starting. The only thing that I have learnt to do is warm up the engine and then the fault would go away. I wonder if the heat from the engine bay improves a connection somewhere (hoping that it has nothing to do with the ESP control module), but how would I go about finding where it is missing. If I drive the car into MB for a diagnostic, the heat would keep the fault away so they can't diagnose it. I can imagine the only way is leave the car with MB overnight so that they can test it in the morning cold. ?Thoughts Cheers. So you still got all faults as you initially stated or just the ESP? Computer rarely if ever go bad... 98% of the time, it is not the computer. I'd suggest you take the car to have second opinion at a different MB dealer. > Also, the first place to look when a late model vehicle is having sensor > problems is the earth wires between the negative post of the battery, the > body and engine. It is common to find that the original wires are too > small and cause sensor malfunctions. A new battery may well mask a minor > wiring inadequacy. Its got me stuffed why cars has to be so f.cking complex and complicated now days ?. Its a technical nightmare now cars. SignatureRegards Dan > > Also, the first place to look when a late model vehicle is having sensor > > problems is the earth wires between the negative post of the battery, the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Its got me stuffed why cars has to be so f.cking complex and complicated now > days ?. I've been wondering that for a while now. The engine in my pickup can spin the rear wheels, and the only 'lectric bits are the fuel cut solenoid and glow plugs (which for a while plugs were fairly broken - so obviously not that important, and the engine can start without them). Guess I need the alternator to charge the battery to keep the fuel cut solenoid on and start the engine ...... yep get your point - it's all too much information. Most folk have a vehicle to get from one place to the next using the least possible fuel and choosing a vehicle that will meet their needs in doing that. I think I'm doing that with a 16 year old vehicle. Granted, due to the condition of my hands and overall strength level, is fairly difficult for me to work on, however I can. A lot of it is about emissions levels. I don't think I'd be popular if I fed the 'lux black diesel (used engine oil) for example. While it may be ferpectly happy I'm not at all sure it would still comply to ADR. > Its a technical nightmare now cars. We need faster and more powerfull cars now because of low speed limit enforcement though ;-) >> Also, the first place to look when a late model vehicle is having sensor >> problems is the earth wires between the negative post of the battery, the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Its a technical nightmare now cars. Unfortunately, that's the price we pay for safety, comfort, power and efficiency. Signaturea9x5l > >> Also, the first place to look when a late model vehicle is having sensor > >> problems is the earth wires between the negative post of the battery, the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Unfortunately, that's the price we pay for safety, comfort, power and > efficiency. Yebbut it's much more fun to drive something that is unsafe, uncomfortable, gutless and inefficient. Al SignatureI don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html >>> Also, the first place to look when a late model vehicle is having sensor >>> problems is the earth wires between the negative post of the battery, the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Unfortunately, that's the price we pay for safety, comfort, power and > efficiency. Yes, and ignorant over complex design. >> Also, the first place to look when a late model vehicle is having sensor >> problems is the earth wires between the negative post of the battery, the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Its a technical nightmare now cars. It needen't be , I have been involved in building a special toy for some time , powered by a turbo v6 petrol on gas , ignition is magneto and apart from lights there is nothing 'lectric required to make it go , you can even push start it . total weight is around a tonne ... goes quite well:) ( as in dirty pants time) most of the crap in modern cars is put there to make you more comfortable , rip it out and I wonder how much less your std foulcan would drop ?. >>> Also, the first place to look when a late model vehicle is having sensor >>> problems is the earth wires between the negative post of the battery, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > most of the crap in modern cars is put there to make you more comfortable > , rip it out and I wonder how much less your std foulcan would drop ? The previous post said: "Unfortunately, that's the price we pay for safety, comfort, power and efficiency". Obviously you can have power without electronics but show me a system that gives them all, including fulfilling current emission rules. I'm afraid you are from California and want to solve the emission issue by suing the car industry ;-) Electronics could be built more reliably than today without significant extra cost but one should not expect all that all our (average user) requirements could be fulfilled without modern electronics (at the cost we are willing to pay). > hello all, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > to a computer, and I was told that the fault lies in the ESP control > module. Gotta love all these clever computers in cars. > Now here is the cruel part, the part can be replaced as a second-hand > unit for about $2500, or a new unit around about $4000 !!!! [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > at the Lexus IS range - much prefer the value of the Liberty range but > the missus does not like the interior :-((( ). $4000 to fix the problem sounds like a lot of money, but compared to the price of the car, it seems normal to me, for a prestige car. What did that one cost new? $100k? It's also an economies of scale thing, IMHO. Keep that in mind when comparing it to the WRX. SignatureBen Lyric of the week: "So all you fly mothers, get on out there and dance. Dance I said!" > Gotta love all these clever computers in cars. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Keep that in mind when comparing it to the WRX. The C320 was $100k new. However, Mercedes-Benz do have lower spec models starting from high $50ks. I have checked the Mercedes-Benz website, and these models also have ABS, ESP, BAS, which means that they also share the same part has gone faulty (or maybe not given that I will be checking out the battery theory) in my car. I can't imagine how an owner of a $50+ car would feel with a $4000 repair bill. $100k sounds a lot for a car, but all the luxury features do cost money to put together, though for this particular model, the premium charged seemed to be more in the spirit of the engine size/engineering. "Wheels" mag certainly questions the value of this particular model (compared to lower spec models) and frankly, I personally agree. In any case, although I realise that the cost of R&D into these technologies need to be recuperated, the cost of manufacturing a PCB with a few chips on it can't be that high. Cheers. > hello all, > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > this a reasonable repair bill? Could the component be removed and > repaired by an electrician for less? I dunno but my last Lada Niva repair cost me less than $5 for a rear axle seal. Al SignatureI don't take sides. It's more fun to insult everyone. http://kwakakid.cjb.net/insult.html |
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