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Car Forum / MINI / June 2004

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Flippin' Alternators!

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Andrew Murray - 25 May 2004 22:03 GMT
As an example of infuriating Mini ownership, I've been battling on and off
since we got our '84 Sprite back from the bodyshop in November with an
intermittent fault where the Ignition, aka alternator warning, light kept
coming on.

Eventually it got to the state where the light was on permanently so as I
couldn't be sure the bodyshop hadn't done something to it (like running the
engine with the alternator disconnected...), I dug out an antique 18ACR I
had stored away and fitted that.

And the Ignition light stayed on when the engine was running!

Not knowing the condition of the 18ACR I decided to get another alternator
and went out and bought an exchange unit.  And fitted it.

And the Ignition light stayed on when the engine was running!

I then did some 'net searching, reading Haynes (frankly not a lot of use)
and came to the conclusion it must be the wiring.

So I popped all the wires out of the multiplug and they looked pretty clean,
but I still gave them a clean.  No difference!

Since then I've had the wires in the plastic block in and out several times
and I've now got the situation where instead of having the Ignition light on
all the time, it doesn't come on at all!!

I've now removed and cleaned the alternator to solenoid wires, and no
change - still no Ignition light!

BUT - if I connect the warning light lead to either of the big alternator
leads it comes on (engine/ignition switch off), so the bulb an circuit is
apparently ok....

Grrr :(

Can anyone give me any pointers?  I'm getting a bit desperate!

Is there anyway I can rig up a 'temporary' warning light, just to confirm
(or not) that the alternator is actually OK?

Thanks,

Andrew Murray
Mini Owners Club Limited Editions Register
http://www.minilimitededitions.co.uk
Lock Horsburgh - 26 May 2004 10:05 GMT
In the dark, run the engine.
Switch on the headlights main beam, and the heater fan and the rear window.
Rev the engine.
If the lights get brighter when you rev, then dim when the revs drop below
1000, the alternator is charging.
If there is no difference in the lights, the alternator is not charging.

Lock
> As an example of infuriating Mini ownership, I've been battling on and off
> since we got our '84 Sprite back from the bodyshop in November with an
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> Mini Owners Club Limited Editions Register
> http://www.minilimitededitions.co.uk
Fitzy - 26 May 2004 12:27 GMT
Try fitting another earth strap from the alternator body to a suitable bolt
on the engine, also check and replace the engine to body earth while your
there
or use one jump lead for a quick test,

Fitzy

> In the dark, run the engine.
> Switch on the headlights main beam, and the heater fan and the rear window.
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.687 / Virus Database: 448 - Release Date: 16/05/04
Graham W - 26 May 2004 10:47 GMT
> As an example of infuriating Mini ownership, I've been battling on and off
> since we got our '84 Sprite back from the bodyshop in November with an
> intermittent fault where the Ignition, aka alternator warning, light kept
> coming on.

> Eventually it got to the state where the light was on permanently so as I
> couldn't be sure the bodyshop hadn't done something to it (like running the
> engine with the alternator disconnected...),

The obvious possibility is that the brushes were almost worn out and
have no worn out. The dust in a panel shop wouldn't help matters.

> I dug out an antique 18ACR I had stored away and fitted that.
> And the Ignition light stayed on when the engine was running!

Which does rather strongly suggest the problem is not the alternator.

> Not knowing the condition of the 18ACR I decided to get another alternator
> and went out and bought an exchange unit.  And fitted it.

Just to be sure to be sure.

> And the Ignition light stayed on when the engine was running!

Time to check the wiring.

> I then did some 'net searching, reading Haynes (frankly not a lot of use)
> and came to the conclusion it must be the wiring.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Is there anyway I can rig up a 'temporary' warning light, just to confirm
> (or not) that the alternator is actually OK?

Assuming it's a conventional internally regulated alternator, there
should be two main terminals on it.

One goes to the battery, typically with a heavy brown wire via the
starter solenoid on a Mini. That's just the output.

The other goes to the warning lamp, and from there to the ignition
switch and then to the battery. This wire connects to the field winding
input on the alternator.

When the ignition switch is off and the motor is stopped, both sides of
the warning lamp are at earth potential. The switch side is earthed
through all the other items which are on the ignition circuit, since the
circuit is off. The field winding side is earther through the field
winding itself and then the regulator, which is shorted to earth because
the battery voltage is under 14V.

When the ignition switch is on and the motor is not turning, the switch
side of the globe has live. The other end is still connected to earth
via the field winding and regulator. Current flows from the ignition
switch through the globe to the alternator and the globe lights. *If the
globe is dead* no current flows through it, through the field winding,
and so when the motor is started the alternator never starts producing
any power, so it does not self energise. The light does not come on and
the alternator does not charge.

When the ignition switch is on and the motor is running, the alternator
supplies the filed winding internally and that side of the globe is also
at 12V, so the globe does not light.

For the short time after the ignition switch is turned off before the
motor stops turning, the ignition switch end of the globe is once again
earthed throught the various other loads. The alternator end is live
from the alternator output, so current flows from the alternator through
the globe to the ignition switch loads and to earth and the globe lights.

Things to check:
Measure the voltage at the battery with the motor running. If the light
comes on only sme of the time, check with it on and with it off.

Check the field winding supply from the warning lamp is live when it is
 disconnected from the alternator and the ignition is switched on. If
you then earth it, the globe should come on. This tests both wiring and
globe. If they're OK, it's pretty much got to be an alternator or
regulator problem.

Finally, one more complication. Some alternators have a third, thinner
wire which ALSO goes to the battery + terminal. In a Mini this might
also be connected to the solenoid. This wire carries almost no current
and is for sensing the voltage AT THE BATTERY.

If this wire is simply connected to the alternator output at the
alternator, then it will work, just as older alternators did, but it
will not allow for voltage drop in the wiring to the battery. If it
comes disconnected, then the regulator will stay shorted to earth,
driving the field winding hard, and making the alternator charge as hard
as it can, often well past 14V, and boiling batteries. The warning lamp
should still work as normal.
mark  williams - 26 May 2004 21:38 GMT
excellent reply to Andrews question

i have found out a few things after reading your thread.
mark.w
Andrew Murray - 28 May 2004 21:01 GMT
<snip>
> Assuming it's a conventional internally regulated alternator, there
> should be two main terminals on it.
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> as it can, often well past 14V, and boiling batteries. The warning lamp
> should still work as normal.

Graham, many thanks for the explanation.  I've tested to see if I had 12v
+ve on the small 'sense' wire with just the ignition switched on, and also
have directly earthed it to test the bulb circuit.

Not surprisingly I've found that there seems to be an intermittent 'break'
in the wire inside the loom - by having a willing voluteer in the car and
poking the loom around there seems to be a fault where the loom is routed
under the bonnet slam on the front panel near where the horn is mounted.

Now for a bit of fun unwrapping the loom to find the break and fix it....

Many thanks for the advice!

Andrew Murray
Mini Owners Club Limited Editions Register
http://www.minilimitededitions.co.uk
Graham W - 28 May 2004 22:46 GMT
> Not surprisingly I've found that there seems to be an intermittent 'break'
> in the wire inside the loom - by having a willing voluteer in the car and
> poking the loom around there seems to be a fault where the loom is routed
> under the bonnet slam on the front panel near where the horn is mounted.

It's one of the few circuits in the car that comes with it's own built
in test lamp!  8-)
k - 01 Jun 2004 23:07 GMT
> As an example of infuriating Mini ownership, I've been battling on and off
> since we got our '84 Sprite back from the bodyshop in November with an
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> Mini Owners Club Limited Editions Register
> http://www.minilimitededitions.co.uk

Hi,
Do you have a voltmeter?
If you do, connect the meter to the battery and have the meter on a range
higher than 12 volts, (possibly 30 volts is common on most meters) check the
voltage and then start the engine. If the voltage rises to around 14 or 15
volts then the alternator is charging. If it stays at 12, or whatever it was
reading with the engine off, then it is not charging.

keith
 
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