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Car Forum / MINI / November 2004SU with pancake filter
Hi all, 2 questions. 1) Before hacking the firewall if its the wrong thing to do, please advise or relate experiences w.r.t. installing a pancake air filter upright between the std SU carb. and the firewall. The filter fitting is correct for the carb. but stops against the firewall on the bottom edge of the filter cover. I've thought of grinding two upright slots in the wall and hammering the strip of metal between the slot to make some space. I only need about 20mm on the bottom end as the wall is at a slant. Any better suggestions (A better fitting filter is not available in South Africa). 2) When depressing the clutch peddle the revs. are reduced with or without a gear engaged. I've had to increase the revs. so that I can idle with a gear engaged. This means that in neutral the engine is over revving. Any ideas what could be wrong? Regards Angelo (1983 1275HLE Clubman) I've never had to do this to fit an aftermarket filter before but I suppose it depends on the filter though. Couple of suggestions and this are just that free suggestions: (1) Rethink the filter type being used as there are cone filters that won't necessitate your bunging up the firewall. (2) They sell adjustable top steady bars now. Perhaps you can use one to lean the engine forward slightly. Good luck Sir and it's nice to see that brave souls are keeping the Mini flame burning on "my" continent.  Signature_________________________________ http://austinmini.ositech.net Looking for cheap Austin Mini, Wagon, Clubman, Mokes and other variants for sale in the USA. > Hi all, > 2 questions. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Regards > Angelo (1983 1275HLE Clubman) And Elvis was sitting next to Angelo in the spaceship, which I thought was kinda weird, but then they turned to me and said: > 1) Before hacking the firewall if its the wrong thing to do, please > advise or relate experiences w.r.t. installing a pancake air filter > upright between the std SU carb. and the firewall. > > The filter fitting is correct for the carb. but stops against the > firewall on the bottom edge of the filter cover If the rubber engine steady bushes are knackered you'll find that you have maybe an inch less clearance at the bulkhead that with new bushes. Also, what type of inlet manifold do you have fitted? - some aftermarket items are just that bit longer that standard. The Howley manifolds, and the MiniSpares copy tend to place quite a few air filters part way through the bulkhead. The alloy MG Metro manifold is excellent in terms of clearance if you can get hold of one. > 2) When depressing the clutch peddle the revs. are reduced with or > without a gear engaged. > I've had to increase the revs. so that I can idle with a gear engaged. > This means that in neutral the engine is over revving. > Any ideas what could be wrong? Is the idle mixture correctly set up? (if you are unable to fit the air filter, I'd guess not...) A weak idle mixture will tend to make the engine race at idle, but without much 'guts', so when you add a little extra drag the engine dies away. If it shows the same behaviour when you switch the headlights on at idle, that's probably the answer. Worst case, it could be the crankshaft thrust bearings. I >> 2) When depressing the clutch peddle the revs. are reduced with or >> without a gear engaged. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Worst case, it could be the crankshaft thrust bearings. I think the thrust bearings are the much more likely. SignatureDavid Toft > Hi all, > 2 questions. > > 1) Before hacking the firewall if its the wrong thing to do, please > advise or relate experiences w.r.t. installing a pancake air filter > upright between the std SU carb. and the firewall. You really need a cone filter especially made for Minis. Pancake filters do not fit, as you have discovered. Surely there are K&N stockists in South Africa. If not, try ordering from abroad. > 2) When depressing the clutch peddle the revs. are reduced with or > without a gear engaged. > I've had to increase the revs. so that I can idle with a gear engaged. > This means that in neutral the engine is over revving. > Any ideas what could be wrong? Carb needs tuning. Maybe a needle change to accomodate the new filter. > Regards > Angelo (1983 1275HLE Clubman) > Hi all, > 2 questions. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Any better suggestions (A better fitting filter is not available in > South Africa). The way you have worded this, it sounds like you have a single carb setup. Hardly anybody is still using the 850 engine with its tiny single carb, so I'm guessing you might have a setup like mine, with a single HIF6 carb on an aftermarket manifold. Make sure your engine mounts and stabilizer bar mounts are in top nick, since if the engine is leaning backward at all, it will diminish the clearance between the carb and firewall. I use a K&N cone filter on a similar setup and I have enough clearance with an unmodified firewall. If you do have to modify the firewall, I would suggest using a big hammer and not cutting any slots. > 2) When depressing the clutch peddle the revs. are reduced with or > without a gear engaged. > I've had to increase the revs. so that I can idle with a gear engaged. > This means that in neutral the engine is over revving. > Any ideas what could be wrong? Sounds like the throw-out bearing is dragging or stuck. If this is the case, it will wear the pressure-plate face. The throw-out (or "clutch-release") bearing can be replaced without removing the engine. -Rock http://www.rocky-frisco.com -- Rocky Frisco's LIBERTY website: http://www.liberty-in-our-time.com/ World's best free News Service: http://www.rationalreview.com/news/ << 2) When depressing the clutch peddle the revs. are reduced with or > > without a gear engaged. > > I've had to increase the revs. so that I can idle with a gear engaged. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > case, it will wear the pressure-plate face. The throw-out (or > "clutch-release") bearing can be replaced without removing the engine.>> Me again. Can anybody confirm that the throw-out (or "clutch-release") bearing can be the cause? This seems a relatively easy fix and is not expensive so I'm willing to do it if there is any chance that this will improve matters. I'm not so sure though after reading some of the postings regarding the other "thrust bearing" (or thrust washers) on the crankshaft. Angelo (1983 1275HLE Clubman) It is very unlikely that the reduced revs are caused by the clutch release bearing. When it fails there is usually a lot of noise, squealing and scraping. There is a way to test for crankshaft thrust bearing wear. When the thrust bearings wear the crankshaft end float (fore/aft movement of the crank) increases. This is tested by puting a dial indicator on the nose of the crankshaft and levering the crankshaft pully fore and aft. Endfloat should be between 0.001" and 0.005" (0.025mm and 0.127mm). My suspicion is that yours will be in the neighborhood of 0.025" (1mm). You may need to find a good mechanic or machinist who is willing to make this measurement for you but it will be well worth the time and expense. Cheers, Kelley ><< 2) When depressing the clutch peddle the revs. are reduced with or >> > without a gear engaged. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Angelo (1983 1275HLE Clubman) > << 2) When depressing the clutch peddle the revs. are reduced with or > > > without a gear engaged. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Angelo (1983 1275HLE Clubman) Hi, If the thrust bearing (throwout bearing) is knackered, it usually makes a noise when you press the clutch pedal. Keith I have fitted a K&N equivalent air filter and had to modify the bulkhead, twas modified with a BIG hammer and works perfectly every time!!!!! If you change the needle go for AAF or AAU type as these are what is fitted to the 998cc engines of MINISPORT and they will mail order if you so desire. I am running a 998cc with AAU needle (single SU) MG inlet manifold (water heated) K&N type pancake filter LCB exhaust single box system, has problems when cold/ on choke but once warm goes like the clappers and not too noisy. Good Luck > Hi all, > 2 questions. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Regards > Angelo (1983 1275HLE Clubman) To give you a definitive answer we would need to know what engine and what carb you are using. It is possible to make or have someone make a different bottom plate for the pancake filter to give it the offset you need. You can also cut new holes in the current bottom plate and then add an additional bottom plate to cover the old holes. A thin film of silicone sealant between the two plates will take care of any leaks. Reduced revs when depressing the clutch often means the thrust bearings on the crankshaft are extremely worn. This isn't common on A-series engines but it can happen. It's a major design flaw in certain Triumph engines if I recall correctly. Cheers, Kelley >Hi all, >2 questions. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Regards >Angelo (1983 1275HLE Clubman) >Hi all, >2 questions. > >1) Before hacking the firewall if its the wrong thing to do, please >advise or relate experiences w.r.t. installing a pancake air filter >upright between the std SU carb. and the firewall. >The filter fitting is correct for the carb. but stops against the >firewall on the bottom edge of the filter cover. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Any better suggestions (A better fitting filter is not available in >South Africa). You must not cut the firewall/bulkhead without reinforcing it/welding afterwards. K&N cone shaped filters available over here in the UK are a tight fit but don't foul the bulkhead/firewall. You have internet access, why not look on the auction site www.ebay.co.uk there are often people selling the Mini specific filters and they won't mind posting to SA if you email them first. Saying that. Failing that look at the K&N website http://www.knfilterchargers.com/dist/ they list 4 distributors in SA. >2) When depressing the clutch peddle the revs. are reduced with or >without a gear engaged. >I've had to increase the revs. so that I can idle with a gear engaged. >This means that in neutral the engine is over revving. >Any ideas what could be wrong? The worst case will be that that the crankshaft thrust bearings are worn or incorrectly shimmed (end float not set correctly) The best case and thing that should be checked/changed first is the clutch release bearing..... You can change this by removing the clutch cover on the LH side of the engine...... It's a bit fiddly but you don't need to remove the engine to do this.... Have a read of the Haynes manual. Good Luck Alan > Hi all, > 2 questions. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Regards > Angelo (1983 1275HLE Clubman) Sorry to add my two penny worth BUT if you're gonna grind the bulkhead out you might as well just add a set of bike carbs onto your mini ! I know it's been said on here before that a so and so and 3/4" carb is better than a so and so 1/2 carb and thats better than a webber etc but for grindong bulkhead out you may as well fit a set of carbs (bank of four) from a GS1000 Suzuki, plenty in the breakers beleive me ! I've only ever been in one mini thus done and it had a fair bit of head work but the thing FLEW ! So if you're not that much into tuning you may aswell stick with the stock filter and drive the car in a usable manner or go "balls out" and tune the thing to unroadusable proportions and go the whole hog Hope this make sense to most of you but don't cut the bulkhead out unless you think the car's expendable (and they aint building real minis anymore :'( ) Hi, all Thanks for all the responses, I obviously wasn't very clear with my info. The filter is an after market flat/pancake. Fitting it to a 1275 Clubman std. manifold, upright between carb. and firewall. Manifold is the original dual purpose (i.e. inlet and exhaust) with the exhaust side ground off and replaced with a cooper s/GTS branch. I accept that the firewall must not be removed or weakend, but all I intended doing was cut two upright parallel slots +- 70mm long and approximately 60mm apart. Slot width +-3mm. I dont think this would really be weakening the panel, but I will take the majorities advise and just hammer a section in to make space. Everybod seems to agree on the clutch/rev issue. New question, clutch and thrust bearing replacement can it be done without removing engine? If yes, what is suggested for someone who has replaced clutch kits before but never on a mini? and are any special tools absolutely necessary or can you make do with general workshop tools? Thanks Again. Angelo -with a legal 1983 1275 HLE Clubman as from this morning :))) -Paid up 6 years work of licence fees with penalties :((( By doing that you are inviting it to rust. You are much better off paying 20 quid for the correct filter. The Muffin Man > Hi, all > Thanks for all the responses, I obviously wasn't very clear with my [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Angelo -with a legal 1983 1275 HLE Clubman as from this morning :))) > -Paid up 6 years work of licence fees with penalties :((( >Everybod seems to agree on the clutch/rev issue. New question, clutch >and thrust bearing replacement can it be done without removing engine? Clutch yes, thrust bearings no. >If yes, what is suggested for someone who has replaced clutch kits >before but never on a mini? Read the book, its nothing like an inline clutch replacement >and are any special tools absolutely necessary A flywheel puller > or can you make do with >general workshop tools? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Angelo -with a legal 1983 1275 HLE Clubman as from this morning :))) > -Paid up 6 years work of licence fees with penalties :((( SignatureDavid Toft << clutch and thrust bearing replacement can it be done without removing engine? > Clutch yes, thrust bearings no.>> Haynes says bearing can be done with engine in or out. Are you saying that its preferable to drop motor for this? << Read the book, its nothing like an inline clutch replacement>> I always read my book(Haynes) but also appreciate getting personal experiences from this ng. PS. Did what most advised regarding firewall. Bit the bullet and bought another air filter (K&N) which bolted on very easily. Thanks all, youve been a great help. Angelo (1983 1275 HLE Clubman) ><< clutch and thrust bearing replacement can it be done without >removing engine? >> Clutch yes, thrust bearings no.>> >Haynes says bearing can be done with engine in or out. Are you saying >that its preferable to drop motor for this? Haynes are referring to the clutch thrust bearing, other posters are referring to the crank thrust bearing SignatureDavid Toft I think there is a terminology problem here. What some are calling a clutch thrust bearing is refered to by BMC as a clutch release bearing. In the U.S. we call it a throwout bearing. This bearing is fairly easy to change with the engine in the car and is unlikely to cause the engine to slow when the clutch is actuated. The crankshaft thrust bearings, which BMC calls crankshaft thrust washers, go figure, control the fore/aft motion (left/right in a Mini) of the crankshaft. This is critical when the clutch is actuated. When these bearings wear out the most common symptom is slowing of the engine when using the clutch. If the car driven in this condition it will wreck the block and the crankshaft. This is an engine out job and is most likely what you're suffering. Cheers, Kelley ><< clutch and thrust bearing replacement can it be done without >removing engine? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Angelo (1983 1275 HLE Clubman) >> Everybod seems to agree on the clutch/rev issue. New question, clutch >> and thrust bearing replacement can it be done without removing engine? > Clutch yes, thrust bearings no. Eh? The thrust bearing is mounted to the release fork which is on the clutch cover which you removed from the car to get the clutch out! >>> Everybod seems to agree on the clutch/rev issue. New question, clutch >>> and thrust bearing replacement can it be done without removing engine? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The thrust bearing is mounted to the release fork which is on the >clutch cover which you removed from the car to get the clutch out! Terminology problem, see the post from Kelley Mascher. We all think we speak the same language but English, American and Australian are not the same! SignatureDavid Toft <Terminology problem, see the post from Kelley Mascher. > We all think we speak the same language but English, American and > Australian are not the same!> I'm also a culpret with my South African English. I nearly changed to clutch release bearing and the clutch thrust bearing and the throwout bearing when I should have changed the crankshaft thrust bearing and the crankshaft thrust washers. :) Any ideas? is this an engineering workshop job with any machineing required or a relatively difficult DIY job? Angelo (1983 1275HLE Clubman) Hi, Clutch release bearing is straight forward, but the crankshaft thrust washers is a major job. Engine out, gearbox off, centre main bearing cap off. Then reverse the job to get it all back together. BUT!! if the thrust washers are worn out, it could have damaged the faces on the crankshaft, which would mean a regrind and oversize washers if the damage is not too bad. Keith > <Terminology problem, see the post from Kelley Mascher. > > We all think we speak the same language but English, American and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Angelo (1983 1275HLE Clubman) |
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