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Car Forum / MINI / December 2003Battery Problem on my Mini Sidewalk
Dear all, I am having a problem with my Mini Sidewalk. I bought the car last year in July and so far the battery has drained completely on several occasions. So far the car has had 6 new batteries .... and there seems to be no end. When I first bought it there was a problem with the electrics: someone obviously used the car as a project, bypassed the alarm system plus a number of fuses, etc. When the car had problem starting again I took it to another garage and they told me that some part which limits the voltage that is charging the battery while driving did not work and that I was frying the battery a bit more every time I used the car. That was in March this year. Just a couple of days ago the car had problems starting again so I took it back to the garage that fixed it the last time as the battery was still under warranty. They had a look, could not find anything but told me that the alternator is working fine, put a new battery in and sent me away .... The car is working fine now but I know exactly it is just a question of time before the battery goes flat again. There must be something wrong with the car but nobody seems to be able to help me. I would be really grateful for suggestions .... Carolin Hello Carolin, I don't know what year your Mini Sidewalk is - must be a carb Mini, right? In this case, very few things can go wrong. There are some points a good garage should really check: - Is and why is the battery empty: a)Isn't it charged or b)is it drained? By measuring the voltage and current supply from the alternator, point a) can be checked. You should make sure, that the charging voltage does "arrive" at the battery, i.e. are all terminals clean and healthy? I once had sudden total losses of everything in my Mini which was due to a hair crack in one battery terminal, which could be hardly seen but was big enough for not giving enough contact. Point b) can be checked by measuring the current through the whole system when everything is switched of. A few mA for the radio and alarm is okay. Don't know what the alarm will draw, my radio for example draws 25mA on idle. If the idle current is too high, then you have to verify what component draw too much current. Disconnecting all electrical things one after the other for example and see when things are allright. If you make sure that the alternator is actually charging the battery and nothing is draining the battery, nothing should go wrong on your Mini. - Maybe the battery isn't decharged at all, but the voltage doesn't get to the rest of the Mini. Again, this is due to bad connectors and terminals. This is a very common problem on Minis. If your Mini is an injection Mini, than it might be a problem with a power supply relay for the ECU. I'm not too deep into those xPi's but I know that there is often a problem with that black little box which is close to the wiper motor. (Well, where the wiper motor is on LHD cars - on the right hand side) This contains some relays, one of them switches the power to the ECU and tends to stuck sometimes. That means the ECU is running all the time - draining your battery. If the black box is warm after some hours when the Mini has been parked, than that might be your problem. I hope all that wasn't too technical and will be of help for you. Best regards, Michael My wife had similar problems with our 1990 998cc City three times. Twice she'd driven somewhere, parked up, and then not been able to restart, and on the third occasion, it wouldn't start, even though I'd been out the night before without any hitches. Each time, there was absolutely nowt happening when the key was turned. No starter motor, no clicking, NOTHING. One the first occasion, she had to call the AA to get going, but on the other two, I was able to get started as a result of my checking all the electrical connections. Nothing was ever loose or disconnected, but obviously my pushing/wiggling connectors was enough to restore a dodgy connection somewhere... On the third occasion, I also noticed the throttle pedal was floppy. A check confirmed the cable was still connected, but the pedal had to be pushed hard and then didn't return to its normal position. I disconnected the cable, and found I had to use an awful lot of force to pull the inner cable from its sheath - almost as if it had been melted into the sheath... possibly by a high current passing through it? Anyone any ideas? Neither of these problems has since re-occurred in the last 4 months. Cheers, Colin > Hello Carolin, > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > Best regards, > Michael A mate of mine had similar problems with his Mini Cooper 1.3i, he reckoned it was down to the starter motor and since it's been overhauled, everything's been fine. Taffy > My wife had similar problems with our 1990 998cc City three times. > Twice she'd driven somewhere, parked up, and then not been able to [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > Best regards, > > Michael > On the third occasion, I also noticed the throttle pedal was floppy. A > check confirmed the cable was still connected, but the pedal had to be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > it? Anyone any ideas? Neither of these problems has since re-occurred > in the last 4 months. Did you check the ground strap? It's leading from one of the engine mounts to the car's body, looks like a sort of plaited wirestrap ... if it's come loose or if it's just plain corroded at the contacts that might explain some of your problems. I've heard it happening with speedo cables, too - just a thought and quite easy to check :) Good luck, -.jan.- Earth strap was one of the first things I checked on both of my wiggling sessions, and in both cases, everything was ok. When it quit the second time and I got it started, I even gave the strap a GOOD checking when I got home and had my toolkit available. No splits, nice and secure, etc. As for headlights, they were dim on the first occasion & bright on the second & third! As I say, I haven't had a re-occurrence in the last or four months so fingers crossed. Main thing is that my wife stopped trusting the car after those three incidents, so she's got her Freelander back and I get to drive the Min instead ;D > > On the third occasion, I also noticed the throttle pedal was floppy. A > > check confirmed the cable was still connected, bu t the pedal had to be [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Good luck, > -.jan.- > Each time, there was absolutely nowt happening > when the key was turned. No starter motor, no clicking, NOTHING. If this happens again, try turning on the headlights. If you get nothing at all, then the battery connections have failed (it was normally the earth of my wife's Mini). If your lights are dim, then the battery is flat, if they are bright then the battery connections are OK and you have a problem with power getting to the starter (check solenoid/starter connections) or the engine earth strap. > melted into the sheath... possibly by a high current passing through > it? Anyone any ideas? This can happen if the engine earth strap fails or has a bad connection, the starter earths itself through the cable sheaths! Shaun. You had a snapped engine earth strap and that was the only way to get the massive current out of the engine and back to the battery - through the cable. The Muffin Man > My wife had similar problems with our 1990 998cc City three times. > Twice she'd driven somewhere, parked up, and then not been able to [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > Best regards, > > Michael I agree with Muffin Man, I had this problem many years ago with melted choke cables and stiff throttle cables, all caused by a bad earth connection from engine to body, while cranking the engine the earth connection is poor ,,so the choke and accelerator cables are the next best connection ,,, they get HOT and melt, = bad earth next time it refuses to start and turns over slow, feel the cables, but be careful of burnt fingers, I always fit a second earth strap as a precaution Fitzy > You had a snapped engine earth strap and that was the only way to get the > massive current out of the engine and back to the battery - through the [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] > > > Best regards, > > > Michael > Dear all, > I am having a problem with my Mini Sidewalk. I bought the car [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Carolin Hi Carolin (1) if these batteries have evaporated all the fluid , then I would go for a faulty voltage regulator,, over charging and damaging the batteries,, (this is part of the alternator,) (2) if the batteries are just dead after a few days, it could still be the regulator, but also check the fusebox for signs of melting, especially the underside of the fusebox, I had this fault with my Sidewalk earlier this year,and it can drain a healthy battery in a few days, HTH Fitzy > Dear all, > I am having a problem with my Mini Sidewalk. I bought the car [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Carolin Hello and ... ... thanks for you suggestions. I forgot to mention in my original message that my mini is one of the later ones which has single point injection. Also a while ago I installed a battery cut-out switch in the boot of the car because of all the problems. This means when I don't drive the car the battery is completely disconnected. Unfortunately it did not help. Several garages have told me that I have to use the car more often in order to charge the battery but that cannot be right. The car gets enough exercise ... One of you suggested that it might be the earth strap. I noticed a while ago that in the boot where the black connector cable is screwed to the floor panel of the car that there is oxide on the metal which might cause problems. But if that is the reason why didn't any of the garages notice that ....? Cheers Carolin Oh, I also forgot to mention that the lifetime of the battery seems to be inversly proportional to usage. In other words the more often I use the car the quicker the battery dies .... Currently I use the car an awful lot meaning I expect the battery to die very soon ..... I get the impression that I am not really charging the battery when I go for longer runs ..... Instaed I am draining it every time I use the car even though the alternator seems to be working. I don't seem to be putting any charge back into the battery ..... Any more suggestions what might be causing the problem ......? Cheers Carolin Hello Carolin, > Oh, I also forgot to mention that the lifetime of the battery seems to > be inversly proportional to usage. In other words the more often I use > the car the quicker the battery dies .... Currently I use the car an > awful lot meaning I expect the battery to die very soon ..... In what way do you use the car? If you drive only very short distances, your alternator might not be able do fully charge the battery in the short time. On the other side - you should really make sure if the battery is really dead or just empty. When drained - can you charge it with a battery charger or is it really dead? A good garage should be able to find out that easily. (Battery testers do exist) Judging from your description give so far, the only possibility that springs to my mind is that your battery is getting any charge. (Constant discharging can be excluded due to the cut-off) Two possible reasons: - The alternator isn't charging - The energy doesn't get to the battery. I've described the ways to check that in my previous answer. Checking if the alternator is charging should be absolutely no problem for a good garage. They measure the output voltage of the alternator. In doubt, they really should check the current that the alternator provides. Checking the Mini's current "consumption" at various points shows easily which current the alternator produces, what current the Mini needs when running and what will end at the battery for charging. If that doesn't help, the voltage just doesn't arrive at the battery. Measuring the voltage across the battery terminal should prove this. If this point is true, it's only a matter of time to find where the voltage gets lost. > I get > the impression that I am not really charging the battery when I go for > longer runs ..... Instaed I am draining it every time I use the car > even though the alternator seems to be working. I don't seem to be > putting any charge back into the battery ..... When the alternator gives 14V, it doesn't mean that it is also providing the necessary current to charge the battery. You garage really should measure the current in doubt. (And a good garage should do this without YOU having them to tell that...) (The General has gone through two new batteries this year, which was due to a faulty alternator. The first batt. was quite old(12years) so that was okay. The second battery was assumed to be faulty but when the second new battery was gone, we checked the alternator output and found out that it was defect. Changing the alt. and everything is fine so far) HTH and good luck with it, Michael > Oh, I also forgot to mention that the lifetime of the battery seems to > be inversly proportional to usage. In other words the more often I use [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > putting any charge back into the battery ..... > Any more suggestions what might be causing the problem ......? Dead batteries are caused by one of four issues: 1) The battery is just old and worn out. They don't last for ever. Typically one cold morning it just won't quite start. 2) Draining the battery when the car is not running. Leaving lights on, interior light not going out when the door is closed, that sort of thing. 3) Not recharging the battery when the car is running. Alternator not charging. Each time you use anything electrical, including driving, the battery slowly gets flatter. 4) Overcharging. The alternator regulator dies and the alternator pumps far more electricity into the battery than it needs. Driving the car makes the battery die fast. Your alternator seems to be working, but when you drive the car, the battery gets worse. My money is on (4). Your regulator has died and your battery is being overcharged. An autoelectrician or battery shop should take about 3 minutes to chek and confirm this. Graham. > Oh, I also forgot to mention that the lifetime of the battery seems to > be inversly proportional to usage. In other words the more often I use [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Cheers > Carolin Hi Carolin Besides my Sidewalk I have a 1987 mini 1000, I often park this car and dont use it for 2 months at a time, infact I started it today after 6 weeks, the battery was fine, it started right up first time, I call that a healthy voltage regulator,,a healthy battery,, and a good engine to body earth, The altornator output is Ok (because its overcharging batteries,) but the regulator isn't regulating, so have a new regulator fitted to the altornator, have the battery checked once again, if its damaged, then replace it, and just for good luck, fit an addittional engine to body earth strap, Good luck Fitzy I have a very similar problem to this in the respect that my car will not strat every so often and it sounds like the battery has failed. This particulary happens when the weather is not good and I have not been able to resolve the problem. If you get any replies suggesting things for this please let me know. My car has a ECU, but I am not sure how well it is working as the car does not run perfactly every time. I have tried changing the battery but this doe snot seem to fix the problem it just gets the car wokring again for a short time (1 month or so) I do not really want to replace the car, but I am coming to the oipion that it might be time. Thnaks, Justin. > Dear all, > I am having a problem with my Mini Sidewalk. I bought the car [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Carolin I have a very similar problem to this in the respect that my car will not strat every so often and it sounds like the battery has failed. This particulary happens when the weather is not good and I have not been able to resolve the problem. If you get any replies suggesting things for this please let me know. My car has a ECU, but I am not sure how well it is working as the car does not run perfactly every time. I have tried changing the battery but this doe snot seem to fix the problem it just gets the car wokring again for a short time (1 month or so) I do not really want to replace the car, but I am coming to the oipion that it might be time. Thnaks, Justin. > Dear all, > I am having a problem with my Mini Sidewalk. I bought the car [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Carolin Dear all, thank you for suggestions. Last week the battery died again so I took the car back to the garage I got the battery from and mentioned a couple of those points you brought up. It turned out that my Mini had an earthing problem. As a result the battery did not get enough charge and drained completely. Now that this has been fixed the car sounds a lot healthier when I start the engine. It is turning over a lot quicker than it did before when starting and I am confident that this problem has finally been solved. Again thank you very much for your help ... :-))))) Carolin > Dear all, > thank you for suggestions. Last week the battery died again [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Carolin Wuhoooo :-) Pleased to hear that its finally fixed good luck Fitzy (kingfisher blue Sidewalk) > Dear all, > thank you for suggestions. Last week the battery died again > so I took the car back to the garage I got the battery from and > mentioned a couple of those points you brought up. It turned out that > my Mini had an earthing problem. As a result the battery did not get > enough charge and drained completely. Now that this has been fixed the Is there a way to test for "earthing problems"? i.e. - what instrument? Is this the same as a "ground problem"? What exactly happens? Also, if cars go 36 or 42 volts, what happens to ground? Does the whole car become "hot" from grounded metal parts? I thought the Sparrow electric car was grounded throughout, even though it was at a relatively high voltage. Clare Bell, the mechanic pro for EV's, alleged this was a design mistake, if my memory serves me correctly. > Carolin wrote: > > thank you for suggestions. Last week the battery died again > > so I took the car back to the garage I got the battery from and > > mentioned a couple of those points you brought up. It turned out that > > my Mini had an earthing problem. As a result the battery did not get > > enough charge and drained completely. Now that this has been fixed the > Is there a way to test for "earthing problems"? i.e. - what > instrument? Is this the same as a "ground problem"? What exactly > happens? "Earth" or "ground" is not the very mysterious concept some people manage to make of it, especially in cars. Basically everything electrical requires two wires, one for +ve, one for -ve. (AC mains is a little different, but that gets complicated, so I'll ignore it) Since the entire car is constructed mainly from steel, it makes a very convenient wire to connect one of these to everything. In early Minis, the body was connected to the +ve terminal of the battery, in most Minis and almost all other cars, the body is connected to the -ve terminal. Many parts have steel or aluminium cases and are directly bolted to the body or the engine, so you don't even see the -ve connection. Think for example of spark plugs, which screw into the head, or the starter motor which is bolted to the motor and has just one heavy +ve wire. Most components are controlled by switching the +ve supply, and are connected directly to -ve by their mounting point to the car body. If the mounting point is not clean, with a good connection, the component is said to have a "bad earth". Some parts, such as the instrument panel, have a seperate wire which connects to an "earth point", a bolt or screw into the car body nearby. Often a single "earth point" serves several components, and if it becomes corroded, then all are affected and may even interact, so for example the fuel guage flicks Empty - Full - Empty - Full when you put the indicators on. Some components have a wire from the battery +ve to the part (horn, interior light), then a second wire to the switch which is then connected to earth. For the horn this means there is only a single wire up the centre of the steering column which is then connected to "earth", the steering column, when you press the horn button. For the interior lights, each door switch has a single wire and connects it to earth when the door is opened, completing the circuit and turning on the interior light. > Also, if cars go 36 or 42 volts, what happens to ground? Does the > whole car become "hot" from grounded metal parts? No. The car body will still be connected to the battery -ve terminal. The voltage of the positive terminal will be +42V from the body, rather than +14V with a conventional (nominally 12V) system. > I thought the Sparrow electric car was grounded throughout, even > though it was at a relatively high voltage. I've never heard of the sparrow, but it makes good sense in most applications to take advantage of the car body to roughly halve the number of wires in your car. > Clare Bell, the mechanic pro for EV's, alleged this was a design mistake, if my > memory serves me correctly. Any comment I could make on why this might be is only be speculation. Bear in mind that an electric powered car uses a LOT more electrical power than anything in a petrol powered car. |
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