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Car Forum / MINI / February 2004

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tech query - suspension cones

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Si - 13 Jan 2004 01:36 GMT
<lurk=off>
Evenin all,

Recently I replaced my front rubber cones due to ground clearance issues and
was rather surprised by the ones I took off. Anyone care to check out this
picture: http://www.btinternet.com/~s.dummett/cones/cones.jpg showing new
and old cones side by side, then hazard a guess as to how they got so bad?

I know that the cones can sag over time, but the car is only 9ish years old
and has done roughly 74k miles. On my other 2 Minis the cones are not this
bad, and they are 16 and 24 years old having done 55k and 105k respectively
(although the cones could have been swapped at some point in the past...)

I've discounted oil contamination as they were both completely dry, they
don't appear heat distorted and there are no splits or cracks in the rubber
or the metal rings/fittings. There is, however, a definite ridge where the
trumpet has been sat and the rubber is pretty solid.

Cheers,
Si.
Roger - 13 Jan 2004 10:47 GMT
Si wrote on 13/01/2004 01:36:

> Recently I replaced my front rubber cones due to ground clearance issues and
> was rather surprised by the ones I took off. Anyone care to check out this
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> or the metal rings/fittings. There is, however, a definite ridge where the
> trumpet has been sat and the rubber is pretty solid.

Mine were nearly that bad off a '98 Cooper Sport with only 10k miles on
the clock. They couldn't compress any more because the car was sitting
on the bump stops.

I think there might be quality differences in the cones, perhaps in the
way they are cured, and if you get a bad set they sag quicker. Mine felt
like the rubber had squashed and lost all its elasticity.

Signature

Roger

Taffy - 13 Jan 2004 12:45 GMT
> Si wrote on 13/01/2004 01:36:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> way they are cured, and if you get a bad set they sag quicker. Mine felt
> like the rubber had squashed and lost all its elasticity.

I think from around 1990 onwards they fitted softer cones to make Mini's
ride smoother, but the cones just don't last as long generally.

Taffy
Steve - 13 Jan 2004 12:56 GMT
> <lurk=off>
> Evenin all,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Cheers,
> Si.

This is very common on later cars. It could be all the extra junk Rover put
under the bonnet. I think the cones remained the same (although there are
rumours of bad batches in the early 90's) but the cars got heavier.

40k miles is not uncommon for 90's cars to be sat on their bump stops.
Replacement totally transforms the ride and handling, doesn't it Si?

Signature

Rgds
Steve
steve@dsnclassics.co.uk
www.dsnclassics.co.uk

Craig Wilson - 13 Jan 2004 14:13 GMT
So how do I know if I should check the condition of the cones in my car? And
What is the best way to get a look at them? I have a 1992.
Craig

> > <lurk=off>
> > Evenin all,
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> steve@dsnclassics.co.uk
> www.dsnclassics.co.uk
Si - 13 Jan 2004 20:14 GMT
> So how do I know if I should check the condition of the cones in my car? And
> What is the best way to get a look at them? I have a 1992.

If:
- the knuckle joints in the top suspension arm are OK and not worn
- your car sits on or very close to the bump stops
- the ride is very harsh and "bangs" or "crashes" over bumps in the road
- you can just about get a finger diagonally in between the wheel arch and
the tyre
- you don't have adjustable suspension,

you match my symptoms and probably have knackered cones. Best inspection
method is to remove and check, particularly if your cones are weak but
rebound fully when you jack the car up.

Cheers,
Si.
Si - 13 Jan 2004 20:14 GMT
> 40k miles is not uncommon for 90's cars to be sat on their bump stops.
> Replacement totally transforms the ride and handling, doesn't it Si?

LOL just a bit, and it means I can clear speedhumps, whereas before I could
just about clear snails. But only if they were laid down...

Cheers,
Si.
Steve - 17 Jan 2004 10:28 GMT
> > 40k miles is not uncommon for 90's cars to be sat on their bump stops.
> > Replacement totally transforms the ride and handling, doesn't it Si?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Cheers,
> Si.

It amazes me how many people want to dramatically lower their Mini when it
wrecks the handling. And on purpose, too! You really need to keep at least
3/4" between the top arm and the bump stop to allow reasonable suspension
travel.

Signature

Rgds
Steve
steve@dsnclassics.co.uk
www.dsnclassics.co.uk

Si - 18 Jan 2004 15:23 GMT
> > > 40k miles is not uncommon for 90's cars to be sat on their bump stops.
> > > Replacement totally transforms the ride and handling, doesn't it Si?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> 3/4" between the top arm and the bump stop to allow reasonable suspension
> travel.

I have, now...

Cheers,
Si.
jimboooo - 01 Feb 2004 19:01 GMT
just a  ramble.
for many years I raced a mini marcos in Group K
suspension mods were fairly restricted, but we were allowed to play with
settings etc
some of the things that come to mind...

rule 1 Mini's are VERY sensitive to suspension mods.
lowering the front or rear independantly can affect the castor angle, and
will affect the steering, a small castor angle will make the car turn in
very sharply, but feel twitchy at high speed in straight lines, whereas a
high castor will make the car very stable in straight lines, but will feel
heavy when you try to turn in.

Mini's tend to increase negative camber under bump, whilst in small amounts
this is a good thing, If you lower the front a lot, without stiffening the
effective spring rate, you can get silly amounts of neg camber under bump...

its easy enough to replace dampers on mini's with a whole range of really
good adjustable units from several top suppliers. But it is too easy to set
the dampers a bit too hard in the belief that firm is good. with standard
(soft) donuts you can create a situation where the damper is not going to
allow the rubber to recover quickly enough. then you get a peculiar "jack
down" situation where the car is effectively running on the bump stops, the
car handles like a plank, and by the time you get back to the garage, make a
cup of tea, light a fag etc, everything looks normal again.....

Mini's can suffer from body and subframe misalignment, made worse by rubber
mounted subframes, bottom arms, and tie bar bushes. always check these, as
well as seized radius arm pins and top arm pins if you think the handling
isnt right, too many times have i seen people spend loads of money on
expensive  mods to find that they havnt cured simple problems that can be
sorted by 1/2 hour in the garage witha grease gun....

some simple rules of thumb I use for setting up road cars.
check all the rubber, replace if there is any doubt.
grease tthe radius arm pins monthly.
try to set the ride height at the front to give you driveshafts that are as
straight as possible... (you'll see that if the car is raised or lowered by
much the driveshafts will fall or rise from the diff)
spend a few quid and get the car on a laser alingnment jig, it will tell you
everything you want.
for race cars.
throw away all the rubber
weld up the rubber mounted subframes etc
use rose joints in the tie bars and bottom arms if your regs allow or fit
nylon nylatron (lubricated impregnated nylon, wonderful stuff) or whatever
hard compound your local supplier can get.
fit adjusters on everything to get the geometry straight. more on this
another day.
get the car on the alingnment jig asap...

enough waffling jim
see ya soon
 
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