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Car Forum / Mitsubishi Cars / September 2005EVO, WRXsti or Honda S2000
Hello There I recently posted on the Honda newsgroup requesting some comment on the S2000. What I got was some social insight like "the S2000 is the automotive equivalent of a Speedo"(terrifying imagery for a guy my age) and "Your friends will think your crazy"(my one friend already knows that). Not much help, but the absence of horror tales of dealership and/or awful mechanical tales is quite encouraging, I have been driving a 92 Laser RS for the past 13 years which is an Eclipse AWD turbo with Plymouth tags and awful service people attached. Shifts like a truck, but was a beast in it's day. Took me a while to get it to it's handling limits which were certainly extended in the loose sh.t via the AWD. SO.........anyone out there have an EVO with some mileage on it? My main mechanical concern is the transmission, first to second/ second to first. I can still double clutch the Laser down, but it will kick out if I don't hold pressure on the shifter. My main rub with any car these days is dealer service. The Honda place in my area very competent, which seems to be the case with Honda where ever, you buy one. SO, after puking out all the above, my question would be; Do Mitsubishi dealerships get the job done with their Evo or would something like a busted timing chain mean you get a hacked fix from dumb and dumber in greasy coveralls? Thank you for your time Michael > Hello There > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Michael You won't be breaking anything in an EVO - cept a few Honda/Subaru owner's hearts - move up or move over... On a recent trip to Mitsubishi transmission specialist TRE, I was able to see an EVO tranny taken apart. The gears are huge and beefy, dwarfing the stuff used in our DSM W5M33 trannies, I doubt you'll see a problem with them. On your car, your syncros are worn and you probably have old/incorrect fluid in it (oil makes a big difference). As to service, the Honda mechanics out here suck just as hard as any Mitsu or Chrysler guys. It seems to be a roll of the dice with half being great and the remainder being parts changing oafs. The EVO is a wonderful car and a MR would be my pick if I were in the market. The EVO can hand out an a.s whipping to any road going Honda and later drive to Costco for groceries and beer. It's a shame that it's so damn fugly.... > Hello There > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Michael Yes it is..A 4G63 in an ugly car. Mitsu should have just made the Eclipse like it was meant to be...instead of voiding the warranties of those that did.  Signature------------------------ > It's a shame that it's so damn fugly.... > Hello There > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > something like a busted timing chain mean you get a hacked fix from > dumb and dumber in greasy coveralls? I would imagine the EVO and the S2000 are fine mechanically. Don't let the haters dissuade you from wanting an S2000...odds are they just think it looks like a girly car. If you like the way it looks and can see yourself in one, that's all that should matter. A couple of things the S2000 has going for it is light weight, pretty good power/weight ratio (11.8), and slightly better fuel economy than the EVO and STi. It also has a very good center of gravity (small car with 49/51 front/rear weight ratio). However, IIRC, it is RWD. RWD is great for drifting, but personally I would rather have AWD for traction off the line (if you drag race), not to mention better cornering characteristics in general. It is also not practical for the needs of many people (only 2 seats, plus 5ft of trunk space is TINY!!!). Also, what happens if you run off the road or collide with somebody? Is the S2K going to save your butt? In my experience with the Eclipse, I've never known anybody to get major injuries or die after wrecking their 3rd Gen Eclipse. I would expect the EVO to be equally safe in an accident. I own an '04 STi (traded in a '00 Eclipse for it). For me, it was really only a matter of EVO or STi. There are certain things about both that I like better than the other. I do prefer the EVO's factory wheels/tires over what you get on an STi. The EVO's come with 235/45-17 (I think) Yokohama tires and Enkei wheels. STi's come with 215/45-17 Bridgestone Potenzas (I can't stand their traction capability myself) and BBS wheels. The wing looks pretty much the same on both cars, so it's really more a matter of which car you think looks better. If you're more into a squarish shape, the EVO should be your choice. More rounded corners? Go with the STi. My main gripe with the EVO is they're more expensive than the STi (not sure why). But it allegedly corners better than the STi (something I attribute to the wider, better quality tires personally) and accelerates just as quickly. Something else you can consider between AWD and RWD: do you plan to do any mountain driving? If you do any snowy mountain driving, I definitely suggest you get one of the AWD choices. You won't be as likely to need to put snow chains/cables on your tires with AWD like you would need with RWD. Lastly, from a mechanic's perspective, I'd rather work on a Mitsu engine than a Honda engine. Doing routine maintenance work on both manufacturers' engines, I tend to get PO'd at some of Honda's designs (e.g., no auto-tensioner as a safety measure for timing belt, have to remove valve cover to get upper timing belt cover off, among other complaints). Scott, you used the terms "haters" and "drifting" and then admitted to owning a '00 Eclipse. That pretty well nulls your post :) The EVO will best an S2000 in any venue. Never gave any consideration to the Honda being a "girly" car....It's pathetic 162lb/ft of torque comes on at 6400rpm, I guess that is "girly". The EVO is laying down 273lb/ft @ 3,500 making it a much easier, more enjoyable car to drive. VTEC stinks in the real world. How long do you think the rings are going to last at those piston speeds? >> Hello There >> [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > remove valve cover to get upper timing belt cover off, among other > complaints). What do calling people "haters", talking about "drifting", and being a previous 3G Eclipse owner have to do with credibility? By "haters", I mean specifically those people who look away from the S2000 just because its performance is inferior to the EVO and STi. Did it occur to you that some people would rather have the roadster look of the S2000 and still have somewhat respectable performance than a 4-door sedan with a huge wing? I know some people who aren't even into the EVO/STi type. Did it ever occur to you that car appearance has a LOT to do with why many people buy the cars they buy? What you drive tells the world about your "status" in the world. It also tells people what kind of person you are...what your tastes are. I take it you aren't a fan at all of the sport of drifting. Maybe you even think it's something for the young punk ricers. Whether you do or don't think that way, I respect the merits of drifting (even though it isn't my thing). It gives you a good experience with keeping an out-of- control car IN control - something that might even save you in a real accident. I'm not going to argue that the S2000 is weak relative to the EVO and STi. It's 0-60 and 1/4-mile numbers are both a full second slower, and that torque/weight ratio (17.5) does suck (EVO = 11.4 and STi = 11.0). It does corner well, but still not any better than the EVO and STi. In fact, its skidpad is about the same as the STi (~0.90) and 2-4 points behind the EVO (0.92-0.94). So yeah, considering straight-line performance AND cornering ability ONLY, the S2000 is definitely inferior. But again, some people would rather have a roadster than a 4-door sedan. I'd personally go for performance primarily, but just because you and I think that way doesn't mean everybody in the world has to. Oh yeah, I don't really care about the VTEC thing either. If I wanted performance from the cam, I'd more likely want it at any time and not just at high rpm. > Scott, you used the terms "haters" and "drifting" and then admitted to > owning a '00 Eclipse. That pretty well nulls your post :) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > enjoyable car to drive. VTEC stinks in the real world. How long do you > think the rings are going to last at those piston speeds? Damn, you're thin skinned. Bet you didn't notice the smilie at the end of the dig huh? "What do calling people "haters", talking about "drifting", and being a previous 3G Eclipse owner have to do with credibility? " By "haters", I mean specifically those people who look away from the S2000 just because its performance is inferior to the EVO and STi." Hater is urban non-speak. Just like the "Verbal Advantage" TV adverts stated "The words you use say a lot about you..." I do find it funny that you use the term to describe someone who chooses one performance car over another based on it's performance, or lack there of. The fact that you bought a 3G Eclipse tells us that, at least at the time of the cars purchase, you are/were a neophyte. " I know some people who aren't even into the EVO/STi type." Me too but nobody was discussing Escalades, Lexus or any other vehicles. This pertained to the aforementioned cars. "Did it ever occur to you that car appearance has a LOT to do with why many people buy the cars they buy?" Yes but at what price? "What you drive tells the world about your "status" in the world." Really? So when you see me on the street in my '97 GSX, you can tell that my home is lakefront? "I take it you aren't a fan at all of the sport of drifting." Drifting isn't a sport. It's a method of negotiating a turn. I do it all winter long on Hakkapeliitta 1 tires in the snow. Fun, yes but sport, no. "I'm not going to argue that the S2000 is weak relative to the EVO and STi." The S2000 is weak relative to the Accord.... " It's 0-60 and 1/4-mile numbers are both a full second slower, and that torque/weight ratio (17.5) does suck (EVO = 11.4 and STi = 11.0)." While 1 second doesn't sound like much, it is huge. The low torque numbers and extremely high rpm that they peak at is something that will be revisited at every stop sign and light. "It does corner well, but still not any better than the EVO and STi." Pretty sad isn't it that Honda's flagship roadster gets hammered so hard by a couple of four door sedans. "So yeah, considering straight-line performance AND cornering ability ONLY, the S2000 is definitely inferior." I guess that just leaves braking and the S2000 does have and great brakes with a 60 to 0 distance of 115 feet but that still 5 feet longer than the EVO. " But again, some people would rather have a roadster than a 4-door sedan." Cool.... If that we me, I'd be looking at a used M Roadster a Miata with a turbo kit or hold out a couple of months for a Solstice turbo. The S2000, in spite of being lighter, having a lower C/G and having a better weight distribution, is slower and does not handle or brake as well, yet still costs more than an EVO. Much like it's big brother the NSX, the S2000 aspires but lacks the goods. If the niche had more competition, there would be no reason to look at it. The original poster appears to be looking for a primary car I assume as he's replacing an aged 1G DSM. That makes the EVO the clear winner here as the S2000 is not only weak on performance but somewhat less than practical as a daily driver. > Damn, you're thin skinned. Bet you didn't notice the smilie at the end > of the dig huh? Didn't see the smilie, but I wouldn't call myself thin skinned either. Maybe I am and don't realize it though. > Hater is urban non-speak. Just like the "Verbal Advantage" TV adverts > stated "The words you use say a lot about you..." Interestingly enough, I'm more notorious for using "big words" that others don't know the meaning of than I am for using slang words. I can see where you'd think I'm some young punk newbie to the NG, if going only off your first impression of me. However, none of the above applies here. > I do find it funny that you use the term to describe someone who > chooses one performance car over another based on it's performance, or > lack there of. hehe That's because most often, people who "hate" on a car without saying much else to support their opinion actually are younger adults who really are "neophytes", as you put it below. ;-) > The fact that you bought a 3G Eclipse tells us that, at least at the > time of the cars purchase, you are/were a neophyte. Neophyte - a term I had to look up...not a word most people hear everyday: 1. A recent convert to a belief 2. A beginner or novice 3. A newly ordained priest; a novice of a religious order or congregation I'm guessing the context in which you are using that is #2. "Are" would definitely not be the case. But then, the fact I owned a 3G has more to do with how much money I was able to spend at the time, among other factors, than what I know. > Me too but nobody was discussing Escalades, Lexus or any other > vehicles. This pertained to the aforementioned cars. True, but the original poster did say they were considering the S2000. It would only be fair to at least let the original poster know all the good and the bad about the S2000 so they can make a more well-informed decision. When they said they're considering the S2000, it should be obvious that they like the way the car looks at the very least. > "What you drive tells the world about your "status" in the world." > > Really? So when you see me on the street in my '97 GSX, you can tell > that my home is lakefront? There are a LOT of 2G GSX's and GS-T's here in SoCal. There might be a handful of lakes here, but it isn't exactly Minnesota if that's what you mean. ;-) Since you ask, the "typical" 2G driver, to me, is a male in his early- to mid-20's and likes all-around driving fun (acceleration or twisties). For comparison, I was just about to turn 26 when I bought my 3G. I can't say anything bad about you just for driving a 2G though. Actually, I think the 2G is easily the best-looking of all the Eclipses, plus they came with AWD. > " It's 0-60 and 1/4-mile numbers are both a full second slower, and > that torque/weight ratio (17.5) does suck (EVO = 11.4 and STi = [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > numbers and extremely high rpm that they peak at is something that > will be revisited at every stop sign and light. True. The fact that ALL of the full second the S2000 does slower in the 1/4-mile is attributable to its 0-60 acceleration points specifically at its poor low-end torque. Other than the bottom end, it can be argued that they do accelerate well once the VTEC kicks in. > "It does corner well, but still not any better than the EVO and STi." > > Pretty sad isn't it that Honda's flagship roadster gets hammered so > hard by a couple of four door sedans. Definitely! > The S2000, in spite of being lighter, having a lower C/G and having a > better weight distribution, is slower and does not handle or brake as > well, yet still costs more than an EVO. Exactly! It's also why personally, I wouldn't even touch the S2000. Honda already irritates me enough with some of their designs. Their cars just have a "cheap" feel to them, IMHO. Plus, I've found Mitsubishi engines to be easier to work on and maintain than Honda motors. > The original poster appears to be looking for a primary car I assume > as he's replacing an aged 1G DSM. That makes the EVO the clear winner > here as the S2000 is not only weak on performance but somewhat less > than practical as a daily driver. Another reason to consider the EVO first, aside from performance: customer loyalty discount. "Since you ask, the "typical" 2G driver, to me, is a male in his early- to mid-20's and likes all-around driving fun (acceleration or twisties)." See, it shows that you just can't tell. I'm 44 and far outside your demographic. That makes me an atypical 2G driver! >> Damn, you're thin skinned. Bet you didn't notice the smilie at the end >> of the dig huh? [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > Another reason to consider the EVO first, aside from performance: > customer loyalty discount. Hey, I'm almost 58, and I love my 2G! Lots of fun and easy on gas. > "Since you ask, the "typical" 2G driver, to me, is a male in his early- > to mid-20's and likes all-around driving fun (acceleration or twisties)." [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > > Another reason to consider the EVO first, aside from performance: > > customer loyalty discount. "Hey, I'm almost 58, and I love my 2G! Lots of fun and easy on gas." We should start a club. I get some odd looks from kids on the street when they get a glimpse of the long-haired "old man" behind the wheel. > Hey, I'm almost 58, and I love my 2G! Lots of fun and easy on gas. > [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] >> > Another reason to consider the EVO first, aside from performance: >> > customer loyalty discount. > "Hey, I'm almost 58, and I love my 2G! Lots of fun and easy on gas." > > We should start a club. I get some odd looks from kids on the street > when they get a glimpse of the long-haired "old man" behind the wheel. We have a 51yr old one-armed man actively involved in the 3G club I'm still a part of. He's as gung-ho about doing things to his 3G as the rest of the members are. You guys aren't the typical 2G or 3G drivers people would expect to see (especially if you've done things to it), but what can I say...you guys have good taste. I drive an '04 STi and I'm still very fond of the 2G and 3G (especially 2G). 1g's had awd -- not just 2g's I'm nearing 40 and just bought my 2nd 1g. Had the 1st one for 8 yrs. The 1 and 2g's are good cars and their performance to 'rice' ratio far exceeds your average compact tuner. Check out some of the DSM websites I listed earlier here and you'll see a community full of 'performance oriented' individuals who are mainly concerned with how to go fast -- not how to 'look' fast. Both 1 and 2 g 5-spds can be 'safely' and easily tuned to run low 14's with only $400 in mods and retain everyday reliability. Low 13's and 12's are VERY attainable for these cars and they're fun to drive so who cares what people who don't know you think about you? Drive what makes you happy. Even if it's an S2000. |
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