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Car Forum / Nissan / Nissan Z Cars / May 2004

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No-Name Gas for My 350Z ?

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K.G. - 22 May 2004 12:00 GMT
Now that the price of Premium gas is sky-high, I am considering the use of
some slightly cheaper fuel from one of the "No Name" stations.  I have
always put Amoco or Sunoco premium into my Z, but was wondering if the
no-name stuff is just as good?  If anyone has tried it, can you let me know
if there is any difference in performance or fuel economy with the premium
gasoline that is a few cents cheaper?
Jim - 22 May 2004 14:31 GMT
> Now that the price of Premium gas is sky-high, I am considering the use of
> some slightly cheaper fuel from one of the "No Name" stations.  I have
> always put Amoco or Sunoco premium into my Z, but was wondering if the
> no-name stuff is just as good?  If anyone has tried it, can you let me know
> if there is any difference in performance or fuel economy with the premium
> gasoline that is a few cents cheaper?

Depending on where you live, chances are it all came up the same pipe.
Richard Tomkins - 22 May 2004 17:27 GMT
The fuel is delivered up the same pipe, but the additives put into the fuel
at each different supplier modify the fuel somewhat. If you are concerned
about the rising ocst of fuel, your best course for economizing is to ensure
that your tires are properly inflated, check them at least once a week. A
difference of 3 PSI lower than nominal can lead to increased road friction
and thus a reduction in fuel economy.

rtt
OniIsan - 22 May 2004 18:21 GMT
nothing will happen.
they all are governed... so they cant sell water with some gas in it.
don't worry.

From the way you speak it doesn't sound like a permanent thing anyway.

> Now that the price of Premium gas is sky-high, I am considering the use of
> some slightly cheaper fuel from one of the "No Name" stations.  I have
> always put Amoco or Sunoco premium into my Z, but was wondering if the
> no-name stuff is just as good?  If anyone has tried it, can you let me know
> if there is any difference in performance or fuel economy with the premium
> gasoline that is a few cents cheaper?
Gordon - 23 May 2004 00:21 GMT
I doubt if there's much if any difference when concerning gas milage.
I have noticed a slight difference when using premium from Shell vs
Chevron or 76.
With the Shell premium I could hear a very slight amount of pinging in
third gear when just slightly accelerating. I could only notice it
under light acceleration. Now this is with a '90 300ZX.
I do remember years back I also noticed a slight roughness at idle
with my motorcycle when using Shell premium. I just seem to have bad
luck with Shell for my higher performance vehicles. No problem when
using their regular in my 4-Runner.

>Now that the price of Premium gas is sky-high, I am considering the use of
>some slightly cheaper fuel from one of the "No Name" stations.  I have
>always put Amoco or Sunoco premium into my Z, but was wondering if the
>no-name stuff is just as good?  If anyone has tried it, can you let me know
>if there is any difference in performance or fuel economy with the premium
>gasoline that is a few cents cheaper?
Gary Coffman - 23 May 2004 02:58 GMT
>Now that the price of Premium gas is sky-high, I am considering the use of
>some slightly cheaper fuel from one of the "No Name" stations.  I have
>always put Amoco or Sunoco premium into my Z, but was wondering if the
>no-name stuff is just as good?  If anyone has tried it, can you let me know
>if there is any difference in performance or fuel economy with the premium
>gasoline that is a few cents cheaper?

Gas is gas. For any given octane grade, it all comes out of the same tank
at the pipeline terminal. The delivery trucks for all the brands just line up
and fill from that same tank.

The name brands put an additive package into the delivery tanker as it
fills up from the big tank. This is a small packet, about the size of a
Kool Aid package, that they add to the 2,000 or so gallons of generic
fuel being loaded into the delivery truck. This is the *only* difference
between brands.

The additive package is mostly a detergent, and neither adds nor
subtracts from fuel performance, which is determined by the octane
rating. The detergent can theoretically help keep injectors clean,
but it is present is such a small quantity that it really can't do much
at all. It is mostly something for the brand name advertising guys to
hang their hats on.

It is more important to buy fuel from a dealer who does a large volume
business. That'll help to avoid getting stale gas, or gas with water in
it from condensation. Around here, that means buying from a busy
QuikTrip or Racetrac station, the two biggest discount fuel vendors
in this area.

The QuikTrip where I buy gas for my 350Z is 9 cents a gallon cheaper
for 93 octane than the brand name BP station is charging for 91 octane.
The Z *can* tell the difference between 93 octane and 91 octane (the
ECU learns it can run more spark advance with the higher octane fuel).
So I get more performance for less cost by buying from the discount
gas station.

Gary
Steve T - 24 May 2004 04:46 GMT
> Now that the price of Premium gas is sky-high, I am considering the use of
> some slightly cheaper fuel from one of the "No Name" stations.  I have
> always put Amoco or Sunoco premium into my Z, but was wondering if the
> no-name stuff is just as good?  If anyone has tried it, can you let me
> know if there is any difference in performance or fuel economy with the
> premium gasoline that is a few cents cheaper?

 The only really garbage gas in our area is Quicktrip. I have an old 85
mitsubishi pickup truck with 8.8:1 comp and it rattles on Quicktrip
premium! Runs fine even on regular from anywhere else. We had a customer
that used their gas one tankful in a 93RX-7 with a fresh engine from mazda
and it blew an apex seal out the exhaust port. Quicktrip did pay for the
engine, you might not be so lucky. I wouldn't put their gas in my lawnmower
but it is like $0.10 a gallon cheaper. Seems silly to me to try to save a
dollar a tankful on a car with a $10,000 engine. YMMV of course.
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Steve

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Gary Coffman - 25 May 2004 11:02 GMT
>> Now that the price of Premium gas is sky-high, I am considering the use of
>> some slightly cheaper fuel from one of the "No Name" stations.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>but it is like $0.10 a gallon cheaper. Seems silly to me to try to save a
>dollar a tankful on a car with a $10,000 engine. YMMV of course.

If you believe your local QuikTrip station is selling adulterated gas,
call the GA Dept of Agriculture, (404) 656-3605, and they'll send
someone out to pull a sample and test it. By law, it has to meet
the octane requirements posted on the pump, and must not contain
undisclosed adulterants. They *will* close a station down right then
and there if it is found to be selling adulterated or mislabeled gas.

If you are under the impression that the gas sold by QuikTrip, or
any of the other discount service station chains, comes from a
different source than that sold by BP, Chevron, Shell, etc, then
drive over to Doraville and watch the tankers being filled at Colonial
Pipeline. All the delivery trucks for all the brands will be filling up
from the *same* million gallon tanks.

There is no relationship between a name brand station and a name
brand refinery. It has been a *long* time (at least 25 years) since
pipeline companies segregated fuel by brand source (back in the
days when Amoco white really was different because it contained
no lead, now they all contain no lead, and gasoline has become a
generic commodity).

Colonial's fuel buyers buy fuel week by week from whichever refinery
offers them the best price or availability. One week it might be a BP
refinery, the next a Shell refinery, the next a Marathon refinery, etc.
It all gets pumped into the same million gallon tanks at the terminal,
segregated only by octane rating.

The service stations (through their distributors) all buy their gas
from Colonial, and take whatever is in the big tank holding gas
with the octane rating they need for that load. They add their
additive package right there as the tanker is filling. The additive
packages look like Kool Aid packets.

The amount of additive, basically detergent, in each 2,000 gallon
load is very small, one or two packets. Many times a tanker may
be filled with no additive, because the driver forgot to check if
he had enough packets to cover the runs he was to make that day.
Those loads get delivered to stations without the brand specific
additives. No one can really tell the difference since the amounts
are so small, and any effects take long term usage of fuel without
detergents to become noticable.

Note that the EPA now mandates a difference in the volatility and
the MTBE and/or methanol content (oxygenates) of summer and
winter blends of gasoline sold in the Atlanta area. Colonial's fuel
buyers take care of that. The distributors and service stations have
no say. They all take what Colonial gives them, and the EPA monitors
Colonial to make sure they're giving them the right thing for the
season.

The name on the sign out front of a service station doesn't mean
anything with respect to the quality of gas being sold there. Only
the Dept of Agriculture labels on the pumps can tell you the octane
rating of the gas you buy. Everybody is getting the same stuff out
of the same million gallon tanks over at Colonial. Gas of any given
octane rating is gas.

Now it is possible that a delivery truck may put the wrong stuff in
the wrong tank at a service station, and it is possible that low volume
stations may get water in the gas from condensation, but those sorts
of errors are equally likely regardless of whose name is out front on
the sign.

(If there is fraud, the GA Dept of Agriculture will be all over them as
soon as they conduct a test, which they do routinely at every station
at least every 6 months, or sooner if there is a consumer complaint.)

Note that while this info is Atlanta area specific, because my next
door neighbor has worked at Colonial for 35 years and explained it
all to me in great detail, the same thing happens elsewhere, just
the names of the companies may be different. This is industry wide
practice in the modern era of EPA mandated fuel standards.

Gary
Steve T - 26 May 2004 03:03 GMT
> If you are under the impression that the gas sold by QuikTrip, or
> any of the other discount service station chains, comes from a
> different source than that sold by BP, Chevron, Shell, etc, then
> drive over to Doraville and watch the tankers being filled at Colonial
> Pipeline. All the delivery trucks for all the brands will be filling up
> from the *same* million gallon tanks.

Dude I LIVE in Doraville and know people who work at the tank farms. All I
know is the gas they sell at the quicktrips around here pings in any car
I've used it in that doesn't have knock sensors to kill timing to stop it.
Maybe you're just driving a car that doesn't ping on that garbage because
it has a knock sensor?

>  Everybody is getting the same stuff out
> of the same million gallon tanks over at Colonial. Gas of any given
> octane rating is gas.

Then explain why my truck pings on quicktrip premium but doesn't on other
people's regular?

Sounds like the people who claim an oil filter is an oil filter etc etc.

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Gary Coffman - 26 May 2004 08:44 GMT
>> If you are under the impression that the gas sold by QuikTrip, or
>> any of the other discount service station chains, comes from a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Maybe you're just driving a car that doesn't ping on that garbage because
>it has a knock sensor?

Talk to the people you know who work at Colonial. Ask them whether all
the brands fill from the same tanks or not. If they tell you that QuikTrip
gets its gas from a separate tank with a lower octane rating, then I'll ask
my neighbor to invite you over there and let you *watch* the tankers being
filled as I have done.

>>  Everybody is getting the same stuff out
>> of the same million gallon tanks over at Colonial. Gas of any given
>> octane rating is gas.
>
>Then explain why my truck pings on quicktrip premium but doesn't on other
>people's regular?

Since there is a 16 point spread in octane numbers there (regular 87, premium
93), I'm at a loss to explain the anomality. Have you tried the other people's
premium? Does your truck act up on that too? Perhaps for some bizarre
reason it just doesn't run well on higher octane fuel.

>Sounds like the people who claim an oil filter is an oil filter etc etc.

Now that's just silly. Different brands of oil filter are manufactured in
different plants using different construction techniques. Oil filters don't
all come out of the same distributor tank, gas does.

Gary
Steve T - 27 May 2004 02:52 GMT
>>> If you are under the impression that the gas sold by QuikTrip, or
>>> any of the other discount service station chains, comes from a
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Talk to the people you know who work at Colonial. Ask them whether all
> the brands fill from the same tanks or not.

Of course they are.. Doesn't mean they put 100% premium in the premium tanks
or that their additives are bad etc. I've never seen or heard of anyone
around here testing the octane of the fuel in the pumps, only that the pump
measures the product correctly.

>>Then explain why my truck pings on quicktrip premium but doesn't on other
>>people's regular?
>
> Since there is a 16 point spread in octane numbers there (regular 87,
> premium 93),

6 points..

> I'm at a loss to explain the anomality. Have you tried the
> other people's premium? Does your truck act up on that too? Perhaps for
> some bizarre reason it just doesn't run well on higher octane fuel.

Nope it's only QT gas that causes the problem so I stopped buying it. I'm
not the only person who has complained about it. Here's another one for ya,
we get people come in for failed EMI due to high nox, we drain QT gas out
and put in someone elses and the car passes... Nox is related to detonation
and cylider pressures so something is going on, maybe the additives they
use cause this? Because of the above I recomend using -anything- besides
QT, you're welcome to use it if you don't think there is anything
substandard about their products.

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Gary Coffman - 27 May 2004 18:56 GMT
>> Talk to the people you know who work at Colonial. Ask them whether all
>> the brands fill from the same tanks or not.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>around here testing the octane of the fuel in the pumps, only that the pump
>measures the product correctly.

The state inspectors are supposed to do a specific gravity test when they
check pump delivery. That'll show if the wrong grade is being dispensed.
They also do a field test for water.  Tanker drivers do sometimes make
mistakes, and put the wrong product in the wrong tank. Tanks also can
get water in them. This is something the inspectors are trained to catch.

They usually only send samples back to the state fuels lab for a random
sample of stations since they all get their fuel from the same source,
and the EPA is watching Colonial. But the state will lab test if there is
a consumer complaint about the fuel quality of a particular station.
The state lab follows SAE procedures to determine octane rating.

Call Kurt Williams, (404) 363-7597, and ask him about this. He is the
head chemist of the state fuels lab.

Gary
Steve T - 28 May 2004 03:06 GMT
> Call Kurt Williams, (404) 363-7597, and ask him about this. He is the
> head chemist of the state fuels lab.

Or buy my gas elsewhere when I find something that seems substandard.  :-)
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Levance - 27 May 2004 00:20 GMT
Well if all of the gas comes from the same tank then Mobil does not put 93
octane in their 93 octane tanks.  I used Mobil in my 300z since the first
day I had the car.  The compression of my car is 10.5 to 1 and for a while
the car ran great then after about a year or two the car ran . . . a little
off.  Their was the slightest hint of pinging at light throttle settings.
Roll into the throttle the pinging would increase then stop as if the timing
was back off, the car would accelerate but felt weak.  I was sure I bought
93 octane gas so I switched Mobil stations with no change in performance.  I
then switched to Sunoco 94 octane and the Z ran in full form.  The
difference was night and day.  I have never used Mobil again since then.
Now that Sunoco only sells 93 octane fuel in this area I still buy their gas
with no issues. Except speeding tickets (CT state cops suck)

> > If you are under the impression that the gas sold by QuikTrip, or
> > any of the other discount service station chains, comes from a
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Sounds like the people who claim an oil filter is an oil filter etc etc.
Steve T - 27 May 2004 02:56 GMT
> Well if all of the gas comes from the same tank then Mobil does not put 93
> octane in their 93 octane tanks.  I used Mobil in my 300z since the first
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Now that Sunoco only sells 93 octane fuel in this area I still buy their
> gas with no issues.

Like I said something is going on, maybe the aditives they use can cause
this or they are "mixing" something else in? I realise it all comes through
the same pipe but I've experienced that cars react differently to gasoline
from different stations and brands. My old Z (77, early head with flat top
pistons) seems to run best on some of the cheaper stations so I know it's
not the "It's better because I paid more" thing.
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OniIsan - 26 May 2004 18:46 GMT
finally a man with sense.

> >> Now that the price of Premium gas is sky-high, I am considering the use of
> >> some slightly cheaper fuel from one of the "No Name" stations.  I have
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
>
> Gary
 
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