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Car Forum / Nissan / Nissan Cars / April 2005K/N vs reg air filters
Ok should i buy a k/n air filter or stick with the 7.99 fram air filters. I hear alot of + and - on k/n a tv show on hot rods did a test and the k/n on increased hp an average of 1 hp and only increased the mpg 1-2 miles per gallon. would like to hear from all sides.. j A lot of flow testing and road testing has been done over the years - filtration is one of those perhaps/maybe subjects... Why change from the manufacturers standard? Have you got a problem with bore wear or gunging up the Piston rings? The sort of 'improvements' quoted for aftermarket filters are often due to the fact someone has (by the nature of the task) at least changed the Filter..... Tyre pressures and general maintenance have more of a measurable effect.......... OK - I just read this back and it sounds as if i'm some expert - I'm not... and I'm not preaching either!! just a sad git who's had a fair bit to do with engines over the years - personally, give me a pair of 45 DCOE's and some tuned trumpets.... Good luck ! Larry www.union-revival.com - a boring signature, but at least this mail is bug free > Ok should i buy a k/n air filter or stick with the 7.99 fram > air filters. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > would like to hear from all sides.. j > a tv show on hot rods did a test and the k/n on increased hp > an average of 1 hp and only increased the mpg 1-2 miles per > gallon. You don't mention what car you have. I would be totally happy with a 1 MPG increase, since that would be almost 7% increase for my QX4. > Ok should i buy a k/n air filter or stick with the 7.99 fram > air filters. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > would like to hear from all sides.. j Unless you're planning on running at red line, the paper filter is fine. > Ok should i buy a k/n air filter or stick with the 7.99 fram > air filters. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > would like to hear from all sides.. j I have used K&N filters for years and love them, I just hate cleaning them (good thing I don?t have to do it very often). I have purchased them for every car I have owned. K&N filters do a much better job of actually filtering the particulates (dirt, dust, etc.) out of the incoming air than paper filter media. I have replaced paper filters that plainly let through the small stuff as you can see a then later of dust on the outer most opening of the throttle body. I have never seen such dusting on engines that use K&N filters. I have rebuilt multiple motors/cars and have done a fair amount of reading and automotive related schooling and some where along the way I heard/read that most engines can withstand about one cup of dirt through them (via the air intake) before the rings are shot. So the longer it takes one cup of dirt/dust to go through an engine the better. For what it?s worth... Loren Jesus Chri*t !! I wish I had a dollar for every time this subject was debated on the newsgroup Just remember 1 thing If it sounds too good to be true it probably is ! Air filters do not increase horsepower, they tear up air flow meters > Ok should i buy a k/n air filter or stick with the 7.99 fram > air filters. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > would like to hear from all sides.. j > Jesus Chri*t !! > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Air filters do not increase horsepower, they tear up air flow meters Exactly. And BTW I'm no fan of Fram filters either. I can never understand why people risk ruining a $500 MAS by saving >$4 on a air filter..  SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com I have a K&N filter in My 350Z, Maxima, Sentra and Corvette and have never had a problem. All I can say is good things about them. Better performance and cleaner air entering the engine. The nice part is that they can be cleaned and you do not have to continue to buy filters. Yes, they cost more initially but it is worth it in the long run. The Corvette is a 1992 and I ahve had a K&N in it as long as I have owned it. The Maxima is a 2000 and the same holds true as does the 350Z and Stanza. Never a problem with mass air flow sensors. I have heard that Ford does not like them and voids the mass airflow sensor under warranty if it is discovered that you have installed one. I have never had this problem with Nissan... > Ok should i buy a k/n air filter or stick with the 7.99 fram > air filters. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > would like to hear from all sides.. j > I have a K&N filter in My 350Z, Maxima, Sentra and Corvette and have > never had a problem. All I can say is good things about them. Better > performance So you've dyno tested it with and without? > and cleaner air entering the engine. Again you have tested this how? > The nice part is that > they can be cleaned and you do not have to continue to buy filters. If an hour of your time is worth less than $7. > Yes, they cost more initially but it is worth it in the long run. Like how long? $7 every 15-30,000 saved if you decide your time is worthless. So at 120,000 you break even after spending half a day cleaning filters? No thanx... > I have heard that > Ford does not like them and voids the mass airflow sensor under warranty > if it is discovered that you have installed one. Wonder why they say this?? Might be because they can kill a MAS? SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com Steve, If you have been told that a K&N filter destroyed your MAS then you should contact K&N. They claim they have never tested a MAS that failed due to a K&N oil filter. It seems that some dealerships use K&N as an out of covering the MAS or maybe they are just guessing. If there is any manufacturer or dealer that has documentation stating that K&N's cause MAS failure please post it or referrence it because don't think it exists. It is a false rumer. I guess you could say that K&N is lying but take a look at http://www.knfilters.com/massair.htm > > I have a K&N filter in My 350Z, Maxima, Sentra and Corvette and have > > never had a problem. All I can say is good things about them. Better [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Wonder why they say this?? Might be because they can kill a MAS? > Steve, > If you have been told that a K&N filter destroyed your MAS then you > should contact K&N. Nope, I don't use them. I have seen a BUNCH of dead MAS's that were using K&N's and other aftermarket filters. I've NEVER seen a dead one on a car that regularly used factory filters. > They claim they have never tested a MAS that > failed due to a K&N oil filter. And you'd expect K&N to say what? > It is a false rumer. I guess you could say that K&N > is lying but take a look at http://www.knfilters.com/massair.htm Again you expect them to say there might be a problem with our product? Or "Our product is a waste of money for most people"? SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com Steve, What you are saying is that you have no factual or technical basis for your statements, only a guess based on no testing. I would expect that someone with such strong optinion about K&N filters destroying a MAS could point to a technical bulletin or some sort of official statement or test results from a manufacturer somewhere. Everyone can have their opinions, however, that is all they are unless there is something to back it up. K&N has made an official statement that they have not tested a MAS that failed due to a K&N filter. Has any auto manufacturer officially stated that they do? If so I haven't seen it. > Steve, > What you are saying is that you have no factual or technical basis > for your statements, only a guess based on no testing. Only from experience working 40 hours a week on these and you have how much experience with how many different samples? > I would expect > that someone with such strong optinion about K&N filters destroying a > MAS could point to a technical bulletin or some sort of official > statement or test results from a manufacturer somewhere. Ford already says it's a problem, probably because of all the 5.0 mustang guys believing the K&N hype. > K&N has made an official statement that they > have not tested a MAS that failed due to a K&N filter. And split fire claims their plugs make a bunch of power.. Again what do you expect K&N to say? "Don't buy our filters as they can cause problems"??? SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com Steve, Great, if Ford says this then who at Ford or can you point me to a URL with this from Ford. I have heard people say that Ford or some other manufacture says these things but I've yet to actually see it. That's why I'm a little annoyed when I hear someone say these things because I've yet to see it from the source. I believe this is because it is not really anything that Ford is saying. It may be someone a dealship's opinion with no actual proof. I don't mean to hammer on you I just want to see evidence that a manufacture says this because I haven't seen it even though people sometimes say it. > Ford already says it's a problem, probably because of all the 5.0 mustang > guys believing the K&N hype. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And split fire claims their plugs make a bunch of power.. Again what do you > expect K&N to say? "Don't buy our filters as they can cause problems"??? > Steve, > Great, if Ford says this then who at Ford or can you point me to a > URL with this from Ford. I have heard people say that Ford or some > other manufacture says these things but I've yet to actually see it. Take a car with a K&N into the dealer with a MAS problem and see if they fix it under warranty, they won't. > That's why I'm a little annoyed when I hear someone say these things > because I've yet to see it from the source. I believe this is because > it is not really anything that Ford is saying. I know people who work at the ford dealer, do you? I doubt Ford would "officially" say these are bad for 2 reasons. K&N would probably sue them and they wouldn't sell as many MAS's. they have NOTHING to gain being forced to prove beyond any doubt K&N filters cause problems. > It may be someone a > dealship's opinion with no actual proof. I don't mean to hammer on you > I just want to see evidence that a manufacture says this because I > haven't seen it even though people sometimes say it. I can send you a dozen dead MAS's from cars using K&N's, how much more "evidence" do you need? Like I said EVERY dead MAS either has a shitty 3rd party filter or a K&N. Your evidence is the marker of a 3rd party product claims it's product has no problem. Yea that's who I'd trust.. Feel free to IGNORE my advice since you seem to want to believe someone who has a vested interest in promoting their product. While you're at it, load up on some bosch platinums, they are supposed to work better than factory plugs acording to bosch.... SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com >> Steve, >> Great, if Ford says this then who at Ford or can you point me to a [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >up on some bosch platinums, they are supposed to work better than factory >plugs acording to bosch.... (Hate to come into this so late, but...) Does a 1985 Toyota 22RE (in a pickup) have an MAS? Either way, I've been using a K&N filter in it for 15 years w/o a problem. Use one in my motorcycle as well. Maybe all these K&N users that have dead MAS's don't know how to properly apply the filter oil? (Just a thought.) Also, is K&N the ONLY company marketing oiled filter systems? If *NOT*, are any of those causing problems? ... >>Feel free to IGNORE my advice since you seem to want to believe someone >>who has a vested interest in promoting their product. While you're at it, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (Hate to come into this so late, but...) > Does a 1985 Toyota 22RE (in a pickup) have an MAS? Gate type AFM's aren't affected by them. SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com > Take a car with a K&N into the dealer with a MAS problem and see if they fix > it under warranty, they won't. In a way I wish mine would fail so I could test your theory. They would not get away with ignoring my warranty without having evidence. If they had evidence then they would have a point. > I know people who work at the ford dealer, do you? I doubt Ford would > "officially" say these are bad for 2 reasons. K&N would probably sue them > and they wouldn't sell as many MAS's. they have NOTHING to gain being > forced to prove beyond any doubt K&N filters cause problems. I don't know people who work at Ford but I do know that if Ford or Ford employees had evidence that a K&N filter caused a MAS problem they wouldn't be afraid of being sued by K&N. You would only be afraid of being sued if you were guessing and had no actual evidence or if it was a convenient way to skirt the warranty with people that didn't know better. > I can send you a dozen dead MAS's from cars using K&N's, how much more > "evidence" do you need? Like I said EVERY dead MAS either has a shitty 3rd > party filter or a K&N. Your evidence is the marker of a 3rd party product > claims it's product has no problem. Yea that's who I'd trust.. I'm sure I can find dozens or hundreds of MAS that failed without a K&N filter. Do you doubt that? Did all of these cars have specialty tires also? Maybe that was the cause. That logic makes as much sense. If Ford or anyone else had evidence that a K&N filter made MAS fail they would have done testing and issued a tech bulletin on the subject. I doubt that Ford is afraid of K&N. > Feel free to IGNORE my advice since you seem to want to believe someone who > has a vested interest in promoting their product. While you're at it, load > up on some bosch platinums, they are supposed to work better than factory > plugs acording to bosch.... The US had a vested interest in saying that we landed on the moon. Did we? Without contrary evidence why shouldn't someone believe K&N? >> Take a car with a K&N into the dealer with a MAS problem and see if > they fix >> it under warranty, they won't. > > In a way I wish mine would fail so I could test your theory. They > would not get away with ignoring my warranty without having evidence. Sure they would and do it regularly. I'd bet if you have a K&N on a nissan and the MAS is killed they wouldn't warranty it either. >> I know people who work at the ford dealer, do you? I doubt Ford would >> "officially" say these are bad for 2 reasons. K&N would probably sue [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > employees had evidence that a K&N filter caused a MAS problem they > wouldn't be afraid of being sued by K&N. Sure they would. You forget they still have to defend themselves in court which could cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars for no real benefit. > I doubt that Ford is afraid of K&N. Again they have nothing to gain by making a =public= statement. They get to sell more MAS when people use these and they risk having to defend themselves in court for no good reason. >> Feel free to IGNORE my advice since you seem to want to believe > someone who >> has a vested interest in promoting their product. > The US had a vested interest in saying that we landed on the moon. Did > we? Without contrary evidence why shouldn't someone believe K&N? So you believe bosch saying their platiums are better pluigs as well? Obviously you "believe" these filters somehow make more power or are a better solution for some reason. I'm just posting I think they are a total waste of money and can damage the cars MAS. BTW found this doing a search, bet this is a pretty comon memo and describes the problem... SERVICE - ALL BUICK, CADILLAC, CHEVROLET, GMC TRUCK, ISUZU, OLDSMOBILE, PONTIAC AND HUMMER DEALERS Subject: A/T Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or SES Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter -- 2004 and Prior Cars and Lt Duty Trucks and 2003-2004 HUMMER H2 Message #: VSS20040056 Corporate Bulletin Number 04-07-30-013 will be available in SI on March 18, 2004. Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter Models: 2004 and All Prior Cars and Light Duty Trucks 2003-2004 HUMMER H2 DO THIS First, Inspect the vehicle for a reusable aftermarket excessively oiled air filter DON'T DO THIS DO NOT repair under warranty if concerns result from the use of a reusable aftermarket oiled air filter. The installation of an aftermarket reusable, oiled air filter may result in: 1. Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On 2. Transmission shift concerns, slipping and damaged clutch(es) or band(s) 3. Engine driveability concerns, poor acceleration from a stop, limited engine RPM range The oil that is used on these air filter elements may be transferred onto the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor causing contamination of the sensor. As a result, the Grams per Second (GPS) signal from the MAF may be low and any or all of the concerns listed above may occur. When servicing a vehicle with any of these concerns, be sure to check for the presence of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air filter. The MAF, GPS reading should be compared to a like vehicle with a OEM air box and filter under the same driving conditions to verify the concern. Transmission or engine driveability concerns that are the result of the installation of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air filter are not considered to be warrantable repair items. I'm sure you'll still say this isn't "evidence"... SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com [snip] >BTW found this doing a search, bet this is a pretty comon memo and describes >the problem... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Subject: A/T Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or SES Light On as a Result >of the Installation of an Aftermarket Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air [emphasis:..........................................................^^^^^^^^^] >Filter -- 2004 and Prior Cars and Lt Duty Trucks and 2003-2004 HUMMER H2 >Message #: VSS20040056 [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >DO THIS >First, Inspect the vehicle for a reusable aftermarket excessively oiled air [emphasis:..................................................................^^^^^^^^^] >filter > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >I'm sure you'll still say this isn't "evidence"... I had suggested in another reply that it was possible these issues were related to IMPROPER oiling of the filter. Seems that this memo agrees ;-) Of course, the dealers will state that ANY OIL AT ALL is excessive! :-o ... > On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:23:53 -0500, Steve T <fotocord@yahoo.com> >>I'm sure you'll still say this isn't "evidence"... > > I had suggested in another reply that it was possible these issues > were related to IMPROPER oiling of the filter. Or the fact they have oil on them period. > Seems that this memo agrees ;-) > > Of course, the dealers will state that ANY OIL AT ALL is excessive! > :-o Exactly. And you can't imagine that some might be "over oiled" from the factory? Bottom line is oil type filters can kill MAS's for ZERO positive gain. Unless your time is worth less than $7 a hour, why would anyone see these as a "savings" either? It takes 100,000 miles to break even if your time is totally worthless so what's the good point? I do use a cone K&N on my own hot roded 280 because of space problems and the fact my Z has no AFM/MAS at all now. On a otherwise stock car though, they are a =total= waste of money. SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com Does anyone have any comments regarding the K&N oil filters. I bought a few for my Infiniti QX4 but have not had a chance to install one. Norm >> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:23:53 -0500, Steve T <fotocord@yahoo.com> > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >the fact my Z has no AFM/MAS at all now. On a otherwise stock car though, >they are a =total= waste of money. > Does anyone have any comments regarding the K&N oil filters. I bought > a few for my Infiniti QX4 but have not had a chance to install one. > > Norm Never used them but they are probably OK. I'd rather see you just use the dealer filters that were designed for your car rather than something K&N sells for it.. SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com > Does anyone have any comments regarding the K&N oil filters. I bought >a few for my Infiniti QX4 but have not had a chance to install one. How much more did it cost than a stock Nissan filter? I've seen some cleanable spin on oil filters (usually for diesel trucks) but they don't filter down to the small particicle size that paper cartridge ones do or have limited number of cleaning cycles and require pressure flushing. Cut a load of oil filters up and compared the contents. http://www.motorvate.ca/mvp.php/515 Lots more cut up and compared http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html You may be able to work out which make the K&N is from the tell tale signs. On 3/25/2005 1:31 AM US(ET), john smith took fingers to keys, and typed the following: > I have a K&N filter in My 350Z, Maxima, Sentra and Corvette and have > never had a problem. All I can say is good things about them. Better > performance and cleaner air entering the engine. The nice part is > that they can be cleaned and you do How did you measure the cleanliness of the air entering the engine? > not have to continue to buy filters. Yes, they cost more initially but > it is worth it in the long run. The Corvette is a 1992 and I ahve had [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >> would like to hear from all sides.. j SignatureBill >Ok should i buy a k/n air filter or stick with the 7.99 fram >air filters. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >would like to hear from all sides.. It's never the change of filter that causes a change in power. It's removal of the restrictive inlet snorkel and air box that gives more power (and noise). Just take the air box lid off and cable tie the filter on. Cost's a few cents - won't win you any bling points at the car park. Just like the K&N it gets your engine plenty of warm air, vapourizes more fuel giving better gas mileage - also gives greater likely hood of hot day high load detonation. The Nissan forums are full of people "I've got idle problems" "I've got a hesitation". "I've got a cone air filter" warm air =more power? actually colder denser air makes more power and better gas mileage, stock air filters and air duct could be restrictive to a built up motor or someone who runs redline all the time. I don't think a better flowing air filter has been over looked by all the car make engineers for all these years on even the most expensive cars. I work at a shop and we have never had a aftermarket air filter destroy a mass air flow sensor, I did have one that was over oiled and it made dirt stick to the sensor but for a little over a hundred dollars it was trouble shot and cleaned and sent on their way. Spending you money on oil changes and tune ups in my opinion will get you better results <lpage@mail.ev1.net> > wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > The Nissan forums are full of people "I've got idle problems" "I've > got a hesitation". "I've got a cone air filter" wrong, "warm"air and COLD fuel make more power > warm air =more power? actually colder denser air makes more power and better > gas mileage, stock air filters and air duct could be restrictive to a built [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > The Nissan forums are full of people "I've got idle problems" "I've > > got a hesitation". "I've got a cone air filter" > wrong, "warm"air and COLD fuel make more power Sorry that isn't how it works. Colder air is more dense and ALWAYS makes more power unless the tuning is off. Don't believe this, ask yourself why they intercool turbo cars.. SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com Boy looking at all the replies here was an absolute hoot! There sure is some funny physics going on in the Nissan world. (-: I've been using K&N filters since the early 80's and NEVER EVER had a problem with them. My brother did have a mounting issue with a motorcycle set of filters. I think they are well worth the money. The rest of you can continue with your funny arguments. -Pete > Ok should i buy a k/n air filter or stick with the 7.99 fram > air filters. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > would like to hear from all sides.. j > Boy looking at all the replies here was an absolute hoot! As was reading your reply. > There sure is some funny physics going on in the Nissan world. (-: Yea they decided to leave 20HP on the table because they didn't want to spend $20 on a better AF, so they created variable valve timing instead... > I've been using K&N filters since the early 80's and NEVER EVER had a > problem with them. And I'm sure you can FEEL the power! :-) SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com > And I'm sure you can FEEL the power! :-) No but I can feel a few dollars left in my wallet from not buying all those paper filters! (-: -P >> And I'm sure you can FEEL the power! :-) > > No but I can feel a few dollars left in my wallet from not buying all > those paper filters! > > (-: Not to worry. You'll spend way more than that when your MAF gets trashed from the oil. >>> And I'm sure you can FEEL the power! :-) >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Not to worry. You'll spend way more than that when your MAF gets trashed > from the oil. Exactly, hope he's getting a KILLER return on investing that $7 he saved.. :-) SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com |
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