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Car Forum / Nissan / Nissan Cars / October 2006Which starter to buy?
I need the starter on my 1993 NISSAN D21 PICKUP L4 2.4 Liter FI replaced. I want to have a friend install it and save some cash but I'm wondering which is the right one to buy. I go to the Advance Auto Parts website, click on all the right buttons identifying my vehicle and it gives me a list of starters and prices. But some are 8-tooth, some are 9-tooth, some are 0.8kw, some are 1.2kw, some are 1.4kw. What's the difference? Will they all fit my truck equally good? Also, how important is it to replace the inhibitor relay? Much thanks for your help. Regards, Nick Also, when I took my truck in to get the belts replaced today the mechanic told me he couldn't get the truck to start afterward. He said something about bypassing the battery and running power straight to the starter and it worked fine. What exactly did he do, and why would the starter work that way but not through the battery? Maybe I don't need to replace the starter if there is something less involved I can get fixed. Thanks. Regards, Nick He didn't bypass the battery, he bypassed the wiring. There were two possibilities for what wiring he bypassed: 1, The big high-current cable that goes direct from the battery to the starter. To check this out, take a jumper cable and run it from the + on the battery to where the big cable attaches to the starter, then try to start it with the key. I had a GF about 1975 with this problem on a 70ish Pinto. I forget whether cleaning up the cable, or replacing the cable, fixed the problem. 2. The low current signal that comes from the key. There will be two wires coming to the starter, a big one and a little. Jump from the big one to the little one (a screwdriver will often work, but dont use one you care about). I had a GF (later my wife) who had this problem with a '68 Firebird 400 convertible. It was VERY intermittent, and I finally traced to a bad splice in an obscure place done by a prior owner. 0. What makes you think it isn't the battery? > Also, when I took my truck in to get the belts replaced today the > mechanic told me he couldn't get the truck to start afterward. He said [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Regards, > Nick > 0. What makes you think it isn't the battery? I thought it was, so I went to the store and purchased a brand new one. 62 bucks later I get it installed and bupkiss, nothing, not a click, burp, nada. I figure what are the chances I got the one battery in the entire store that just happens to be defective and doesn't work? My dome light and clock work, so the battery can at least fire those up. >>0. What makes you think it isn't the battery? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > entire store that just happens to be defective and doesn't work? My > dome light and clock work, so the battery can at least fire those up. Try finding the interlocking relay. Thats what it's called. In the engine compartment left side looking at the motor. Blue plastic with 4 wires. Goes between the key and selenoid. I have '91 pu 4cyl had the same problem.You can bypass the relay with a wire uses blade connectors. Buy a new one for $20 from nissan. Cut open the relay and make it connect permanently. I bought a new one and it lasted about a year so I fixed the old one permanently.regards. Chuck Tribolet cried out > 1, The big high-current cable that goes direct from the battery to > the starter. To check this out, take a jumper cable and run it > from the + on the battery to where the big cable attaches to the > starter, then try to start it with the key. WHOA! STOP! TRYING TO GET SOMEONE KILLED!!! Running a jumper directly form the battery driectly to a starter and not through a starter sylenoid is going to create a very dangerous electrical arc and cause the starterd to activate imediatley. First of all if the car is a manual tranny put it in nuetral and set the parking brake firmly. To test the cabling you would want to jump from the batter to the incomming lead on the sylednoid, try the key. If there still is no reaction use a screwdriver to jump from the incomming ternimal on the sylenoid to the small lug on the sylenoid. If there is a reaction there is a fault with the either the fuse, the igntion itself or the ignition wiring.(or clutch saftey switch if maunal tranny) If there is still no reaction, remove the starter from the vehicle including the sylenoid and take it to autozone or orielly to have it tested. The current flow during starter activation is enough to kill a person. > The current flow during starter activation is enough to kill a > person. ???? Where do people come up with this stuff! 12volts can't kill anyone and I seriously doubt you could even feel it unless you stick your mouth over the wires! Go grab the battery terminals and see if the 440amps at 12V shocks you... it won't. To the OP, I bet the "starter relay" is the problem, not the starter.  SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com I'm the original poster and I have one more question. Before all this happened, I started to notice quite easily that cranking the engine was getting a bit harder. The morning before I took the truck in to get the belts replaced I went on several errands. While trying to crank the truck for the third time in about an hour I could tell the battery was sluggish, like it was quickly losing juice, and the alternator belt could be depressed about an inch. But all that aside, I find it quite coincidental that it just stopped working all of a sudden like that when the symptoms had been leading up to a drained battery. What could an unscrupulous mechanic have done, that I couldn't easily see that would cause the truck not to crank, not to click, not to do anything when I turn the key. He would have done it from access through the hood because he never got under it. Also, where is the starter relay on a 1993 pickup? Thanks again. Regards, Nick If you can depress the belt an inch and the battery is slowly draining, the likely problem is that belt slipping, causing the alternator to not be running at full speed and hence, not fully charging the battery. Try tightening the belt and see if that fixes it. On 9/28/06 9:43 AM, in article 1159454639.858437.86890@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, "Goldfinger7967" <goldfinger7967@yahoo.com> wrote: > I'm the original poster and I have one more question. Before all this > happened, I started to notice quite easily that cranking the engine was [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Regards, > Nick The fact that cranking the engine was getting more difficult before could indicate a gradual worsening of a connection. I am surprised that I missed or no one has mentioned the ground connections. Look for the thick wire coming out of the negative battery terminal. Make sure its terminals are clean both on the battery and on the engine. This wire normally stops somewhere on the body too. Besides, follow all the other recommendations, thick wire from the positive to the starter and the interlocking relay. I do not see the danger in the 12 volt arc, even though it could damage the screw driver or the threads on the solenoid. Good luck > I'm the original poster and I have one more question. Before all this > happened, I started to notice quite easily that cranking the engine was [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Regards, > Nick I agree with Steve, you will not get shoked if you grab the terminals of a 12 volt battery. But.... and this is a big one... I once was working on the headlights on my father's car. The problem was with the terminals inside the connector for the headlight bulb. I took the terminals off and while holding the terminal in my hand, with the light switch on, and leaning against the headlight frame (ground) some how I got shocked in such a violent way that my arm moved involuntarily and hit itself against something else in the engine compartment. Remember that the shock is caused by current, and depending on where the voltage is applied, it may require less voltage to shock a person. If I had not experienced it, felt the pain and then laughed about it, i would not believe it either. >>The current flow during starter activation is enough to kill a >>person. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > To the OP, I bet the "starter relay" is the problem, not the starter. Steve T cried out >> The current flow during starter activation is enough to kill a >> person. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > To the OP, I bet the "starter relay" is the problem, not the > starter. Anyone with any background in electrical work knows that its not the voltage that kills you, its the amperage. The amps that a automotive, or worse marine battery can release is deadly. To be completly honest high amperage at low voltages is much more deadly than high voltage with low amperage as the high voltage will throw you off of it, or simply scare the crap out of you, where as the lower voltage can cause your muscles to react in some cases locking the person on to the contact point. Now back to my point, consider this, your ENTIRE HOUSE in america is typically under the control of one 200amp main breaker. Even the smallest automotive batteries produce around 500 cold cranking amps, which is 2.5 times the amount of power your house can acctually consume at one time. This is not to say that your car battery can run your house, as the voltage is not compatible. That is just to give you an idea of just how much amperage a battery can release. Now if you don't think an automotive battery can kill you, just try touching the main terminal of your starter with one hand, hold the frame with the other and have someone crank the car. (I'm not responsible, for your funeral, medical bills, or any other damage to your person, or property as a result of this action, including pychological damage) > Anyone with any background in electrical work knows that its not the > voltage that kills you, its the amperage. The amps that a [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > your person, or property as a result of this action, including > pychological damage) Where do you get this stuff indeed. You can't even fell anything below 36V or so no matter how much current it is capable of producing. simple E=I*R I=E/R 12 volts devided by 400,000 ohms ( I just measured between indexfinge and thumb on one hand to indexfinger and thumb on other hand, squeezed hard lowest reading i saw was about 4000,000 ohms) = .03 millamps. Not enough to feel. Touch the main terminal of the starter with 1 hand on the frame and you will not feel anything when someone cranks the car UNTILL they release the key and the counter EMF (caused by the magnetic lines of flux collapsing) will produce hundreds or thousands of volts at low current will shock the hell out of you because then 4000 volts devided by 400,000 ohms will allow 10 millamps to go thru you and that sir could be lethal!! >> Anyone with any background in electrical work knows that its not the >> voltage that kills you, its the amperage. The amps that a [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >Where do you get this stuff indeed. You can't even fell anything below >36V or so no matter how much current it is capable of producing. > simple E=I*R > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > by 400,000 ohms will allow 10 millamps to go thru you and that sir > could be lethal!! When you let off the key, the solenoid disengages, so any EMF wouldn't transfer to the post being held. SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com >> simple E=I*R >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >When you let off the key, the solenoid disengages, so any EMF wouldn't >transfer to the post being held. the solenoid disengaging is what causes the counter-EMF The magnetic flux being developed by the coil all of a sudden have no where to go so they collapse back to the coil. With no return path to ground. the very high resistance makes the voltage so high at the post. Basic electronics. . >>> simple E=I*R >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > the very high resistance makes the voltage so high at the post. Basic > electronics. The solenoid is a relay. When you disengage it, any EMF would NOT discharge to the positive post on the solenoid the battery cable connects to, the coil isn't connected to that post! There might be some voltage at the trigger wire but the low ohms of a solenoid coil (go measure one) isn't going to create a high voltage spike that would cause a severe shock like an ignition coil is going to. Basic electronics.. SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com >>>> simple E=I*R >>>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >going to create a high voltage spike that would cause a severe shock like >an ignition coil is going to. Basic electronics.. Ok you got me. I do remember using the master key ( Any metal that you can find, wire, screwdriver, key,etc) more then once to energize the solenoid and get it started. many times I remember a hell of a shock. You made me think about it because you are right. Next time I do it I will be sure to take the screwdriver off the solenoid before I take it off the hot post and that should allow me to avoid the hi voltage of the counter-emf. However I still disagree with you about the high voltage spike. without going into a lot of detail ( I have been employed in the electronic field since 67 and earned my BSEE in 73) I will just remind you that the dc resistance of that ignition coil is also very low. The counter-emf depends on the number of windings ( And a larger wire size would mean less dc resistance but not much effect on the voltage induced by the magnetic field passing tru the windings) I would take a bet that I could measure at least 1000 volts within .5 milliseconds of the collapse of the magnetic field in most solenoids >>>>> simple E=I*R >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > wire, screwdriver, key,etc) more then once to energize the solenoid > and get it started. many times I remember a hell of a shock. Hmm I think I would stop doing something that gave me a hell of a shock after the first time it happened, but hey that's just me... > You made > me think about it because you are right. Next time I do it I will be [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > remind you that the dc resistance of that ignition coil is also very > low. But there isn't large voltage created on the low ohm side is there? The high voltage is created on the high ohm side of the coil. > I would take a bet that I could measure at least 1000 volts within .5 > milliseconds of the collapse of the magnetic field in most solenoids I have no idea but is seems if this was true, you'd have a major problem with this voltage spike being sent back to the ignition switch and quickly burning them or the starter relay up if this was the case. 1000 volts is going to jump across relay points in free air and they sure wouldn't last very long. SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com >>>>>> simple E=I*R >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >Hmm I think I would stop doing something that gave me a hell of a shock >after the first time it happened, but hey that's just me... HMM I have always felt a need to charge up every once in a while It keeps me from being stupid like you >> You made >> me think about it because you are right. Next time I do it I will be [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >But there isn't large voltage created on the low ohm side is there? The >high voltage is created on the high ohm side of the coil. You better read up Google is your friend, I don't need to tell you again, you just want to argue! >> I would take a bet that I could measure at least 1000 volts within .5 >> milliseconds of the collapse of the magnetic field in most solenoids [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >going to jump across relay points in free air and they sure wouldn't last >very long. maybe that is way we put damping diodes and capacitors across relay coils. But that voltage is there and you can do something about it if you want to. lots of designs don't do anything about it. You better read up Google is your friend, I don't need to tell you again, you just want to argue! >>> I do remember using the master key ( Any metal that you can find, >>> wire, screwdriver, key,etc) more then once to energize the solenoid [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > HMM I have always felt a need to charge up every once in a while It > keeps me from being stupid like you OK let's see, you repeatedly gave yourself a "hell of a shock" doing the same thing over and over many times and then call me stupid? How many times did it take for you to figure out not to put your hand on a red hot cooktop eye? >>> You made >>> me think about it because you are right. Next time I do it I will be [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > You better read up Google is your friend, I don't need to tell you > again, you just want to argue! Maybe you should research what the secondary side of the ignition coil is made for. Hint: it's to create the high voltage that can shock you. Hint 2: A starter solenoid doesn't have a secondary winding. >>> I would take a bet that I could measure at least 1000 volts within .5 >>> milliseconds of the collapse of the magnetic field in most solenoids [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > maybe that is way we put damping diodes and capacitors across relay > coils. That is to protect sensitive electronics that can be damaged from MINUTE current flow at anything over their base voltage. Doesn't mean these can be felt by a human (they can't) much less kill them. > But that voltage is there and you can do something about it if you > want to. lots of designs don't do anything about it. If there was a thousand volts at a high enough current to kill a human, it would fry a starter relay or switch in a VERY short period of time. SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com Yes I heard about you dumbass flamers try to be a expert in my field and just show what a Aholde you can be. http://www.naisweb.com/e/relaye/mech_eng/mech_eng_rtia/idapm4w.html http://www.naisweb.com/e/relaye/mech_eng/mech_eng_rti/idaqy5w.html I am sure you can find fault in my links above since no one knows more then you about anything. I will design electronic circuits and you can tell me how they will work or not, Come on guys, let's not make this a pissing contest. We can disagree and respect eachother's position even if we think it is stupid. I never stop learning and always keep an open mind, but hell, it is just stupid me > Yes I heard about you dumbass flamers try to be a expert in my field > and just show what a Aholde you can be. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > then you about anything. I will design electronic circuits and you can > tell me how they will work or not, >> Anyone with any background in electrical work knows that its not the >> voltage that kills you, its the amperage. The amps that a automotive, or [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Where do you get this stuff indeed. You can't even fell anything below 36V > or so no matter how much current it is capable of producing. I certainly hope you are not *EVER* allowed to work on anything electrical. Even more, I hope you are never allowed to give advice to anyone about anything even remotely related to electricity. You are an idiot and a moron. You can quite easily kill someone with a automotive ignition system. I think you have fried your brain...and it has made you an idiot. Bobby NoNoBadDog! cried out >>> Anyone with any background in electrical work knows that its not >>> the voltage that kills you, its the amperage. The amps that a [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Bobby Thank you! Finally someone who knows what electricty can do, especially the amount in an automotive ignition system! We weren't talking about the ignition system, we were talking about the starter. And we weren't talking about a human being IN the system. I made the post that touched this off -- I suggested paralleling the normal high-amperage wiring with a jumper cable. >>> Anyone with any background in electrical work knows that its not the voltage that kills you, its the amperage. The amps that a >>> automotive, or worse marine battery can release is deadly. To be completly honest high amperage at low voltages is much more [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Bobby Chuck Tribolet cried out > We weren't talking about the ignition system, we were talking > about the starter. And we weren't talking about a human being IN > the system. I made the post that touched this off -- I suggested > paralleling the normal high-amperage wiring with a jumper cab The post I read that made me first comment was saying to run a jumper from the battery to the starter. This is NOT paralleling the normal wiring, this is closing the circuit. Paralleling the wiring would be running a jumper from the battery to the input side of the sylenoid In every modern starter I've dealt with, the solinoid is an integral part of the starter. AND I said: "To check this out, take a jumper cable and run it from the + on the battery to where the big cable attaches to the starter, then try to start it with the key." So that's not going to close the circuit, until you turn the key. Please read the thread before you engage keyboard. > Chuck Tribolet cried out > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > wiring, this is closing the circuit. Paralleling the wiring would be > running a jumper from the battery to the input side of the sylenoid Chuck Tribolet cried out > In every modern starter I've dealt with, the solinoid is an > integral part of the starter. AND I said: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> wiring would be running a jumper from the battery to the input >> side of the sylenoid EH, Wrong, ever delt with an older ford pick-up the starter sylednoid is right next to the batter, no where near the starter! Read what I said: "In every MODERN starter". You said "older ford pickup". Solinoids moved onto the starter a long time ago to reduce the manufacturing cost. > Chuck Tribolet cried out > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > EH, Wrong, ever delt with an older ford pick-up the starter > sylednoid is right next to the batter, no where near the starter! >>> Anyone with any background in electrical work knows that its not the >>> voltage that kills you, its the amperage. The amps that a automotive, or [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > You can quite easily kill someone with a automotive ignition system. Who said anything about the ignition system? And I've never heard of anyone being killed by being shocked from a plug wire so it must not be easy to do either.. This BS about 500 cold cranking amps at 12V being a "lethal amount or power" is just that, BS. SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com > Anyone with any background in electrical work knows that its not the > voltage that kills you, its the amperage. The amps that a > automotive, or worse marine battery can release is deadly. Total BS. > Now back to my point, consider this, your ENTIRE HOUSE in america is > typically under the control of one 200amp main breaker. And has 240 volts! The VOLTAGE + the amps are what will kill you. It's the main reason they haven't gone to 48 volt electrical systems.. Why do you think they make outdoor lawn lighting 12 volts rather than 120? > Even the > smallest automotive batteries produce around 500 cold cranking amps, > which is 2.5 times the amount of power your house can acctually > consume at one time. Again BS, 240 volts X 200 amps is 48,000 watts. A car battery at 500 amps is 6,00 watts, not ever close to the same "power, but then anyone with any background in electrical work would know that. > Now if you don't think an automotive battery can kill you, just try > touching the main terminal of your starter with one hand, hold the > frame with the other and have someone crank the car. Nothing will happen. Again, it's amazing the dumb things people post on-line.. SignatureSteve http://www.atlantaracing.com That doesn't bypass the solinoid, it just parallels the normal battery cable. > Chuck Tribolet cried out > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > tested. The current flow during starter activation is enough to kill a > person. My 2 cents worth-- A possible way to test the started is to whack the starter on the side with something, like the insulated handle of a big screwdriver, etc. Sometimes the brushes, or other internal components are no longer making contact, and a good "jar" makes them temporarily work again. Also, visually inspect the connectors to the battery terminals for corrosion/ cracks. My daughter had an old Ford Taurus as her first car, and was crying because she had to go to work and the car wouldn't start. I found that one of the terminals was not making connection (with a voltmeter), but when I inspected it closer, there was a big crack running down the width of the connector. A $4.00 replacement from Checker Autoparts did the trick. I'm not saying this is what's wrong with yours, but when I troubleshoot, I try the simplest thing (even though not the most likely thing) first. Jim I just want to thank you guys for the help. I'm going to try each suggestion today and see if any of it works for me. Regards, Nick |
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