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Car Forum / Nissan / Nissan Cars / December 2006toyota vs nissan
Hello, All! I know it may sound strange, but i have a question about subj. May be there are some people out there who have some experience with both Nissan and Toyota? I am so tired of my Nissan max 02 and thinking to replace it with RX. Is it worth the money? I only would do it if Lexus is not that much trouble and their reliability is what Toyota and all those consumer reports claim. My Max is only 5 years old but it already started falling apart. I looked at the bottom it's all rusty , i just don't believe it will survive another couple of years. So if anyone can advise, how much is it possible to compare ? Thanks D. > Hello, All! > I know it may sound strange, but i have a question about subj. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Thanks > D. You're posting in a Nissan group. I imagine most people here will tell you the Max is a well built car. I have an '01 in New England (lots of salt and snow) with 113K on it. It's never been in the shop. Sometimes you just get a bad one I guess. You could get a bad troublesome Lexus too. Hi JimV > You're posting in a Nissan group. I imagine most people here will tell you > the Max is a well built car. I have an '01 in New England (lots of salt > and snow) with 113K on it. It's never been in the shop. Sometimes you just > get a bad one I guess. You could get a bad troublesome Lexus too. Yeah, i live in NE(NH) too and have been in the shop numerous times already. Driver's window motor broke, muffler broke(rusted), middle pipe broke, now leak in coolant tank somewhere. EVAP tank replaced 'cause EVAP valve was broken... duh! the car is 02 74K miles only! Even if i got bad one, i'm just scared to buy another nissan... D It all depends on what you want from the car. I see them both as great cars, but Toyota sacrifices a lot of performance and sportiness (handling, performance features) for reliability. Nissan makes the opposite sacrifice. The Max is quite reliable, much more so than the typical competing American cars (and way more enjoyable to drive), but not as reliable as Toyota. And, given that the Max has quite a few intricate, technological features (Nissan doesn't do things the simple way) there are more things to break, and when they do, they can be expensive to fix. -mike w > Hello, All! > I know it may sound strange, but i have a question about subj. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Thanks > D.  SignatureRegards, Ed White http://home.mindspring.com/~ed_white/ - my automotive opinions http://home.mindspring.com/~ed_white/id7.html - my oil filter comparison > It all depends on what you want from the car. I see them both as great > cars, but Toyota sacrifices a lot of performance and sportiness (handling, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > technological features (Nissan doesn't do things the simple way) there are > more things to break, and when they do, they can be expensive to fix. Why do you say that a Maxima is much more reliable than the typical American car? The JD Powers long term reliability study doesn't support this conclusion at all. My families and close friends experience doesn't support it either. If anything, the exact opposite is true. I currently have a 2006 Nissan Frontier. In 9 months it has been back to the dealer 4 times. Nothing major, but still inconvenient. My father owned Ford Rangers from the early 80 until today. All of his Rangers combined were not back to the dealer 4 times. I just bought my Mom's 7 year old Grand Marquis to use as a commuter car. It has never been back to the dealer. It has never needed a single repair of any kind. My Son has a 2006 Mustang. So far, zero problems. My younger sister has a 6 years old Escape. She has needed two repairs - a coolant level sensor handled under warranty and a cruise control cable that I installed ($12). Over the past 10 years I owned two Ford Expedition that I drove for a total of 240,000 miles. I had a few problems (1 power window, 1 alternator, a couple of recalls) but they were mostly trouble free. The list could go on. The worst vehicle I ever owned was a Toyota Cressida. I also owned a Datsun Z car. It was not as bad as the Cressida, but it was worse than any Ford I ever owned. But back to your original question - If you trust the JD Powers Dependability Study, then yes Toyotas are more reliable than Nissans. In the 2006 Study three year old Toyotas were found to have 179 problems per 100 vehicles (1.79 problems per vehicle on average) and three year old Nissans were found to have 242 problems per 100 vehicles (2.42 problems per vehicle on average). So, the average Nissan owner can expect to have 0.63 more problems per vehicle than the average Toyota owner. This study was based on a survey of owners of 2003 vehicles in 2006 (i.e., they were surveying three year old cars). See http://www.jdpower.com/global/press-releases/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=1160 (the 2005 study is at http://www.jdpower.com/global/press-releases/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=996 ). In terms of initial quality, Toyota and Nissan were even closer. Toyota had 106 problems per 100 cars (1.06 per car on average) and Nissan had 121 problems per 100 cars (1.21 per car average). Not much difference there. See http://www.jdpower.com/global/press-releases/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=1132 . Ed I base my opinion on experience repairing cars. I worked as a tech for about 10 years, and did mostly chassis stuff - brakes, steering and suspension, and alignment. I consistently found American cars to be pretty much train wrecks by 75K miles - many need complete brakes, struts, maybe some steering parts, ball joints, and there are oil leaks and drivability issues; they are just high maintenance cars. Those that say "I've never done a thing to it!" often mean just that - they don't bother to have it inspected, or don't know what to look for in an inspection. Toyotas, Nissans and Hondas are different. You see them with over 100K on them with all original chassis mechanicals - struts are still as tight as ever, steering still precise. Put it on the alignment machine for the first time in its 8 years on the road, and it really doesn't need any adjustment but the toe angle. I haven't even gotten to my perception of the poor and cheap fit and finish of American cars. They are chunky where they should be sleek, flimsy where they need to be strong. Door panels break, headliners fall down, rearview mirrors fall off, electric windows stop working. Just stuff that doesn't happen to decent Japanse cars until much later, if at all. And anyone notice this one: change the oil regularly in an American car, and every 3K miles, the oil is black as could be, and thin as you drain it - totally broken down. Do the same in a Japanese car, and after 3K miles, the oil still appears somewhat clear, and drains like its still oil. But, in the end, just an opinion. Thanks for reading it! -mike w > And anyone notice this one: change the oil regularly in an American car, > and every 3K miles, the oil is black as could be, and thin as you drain > it - totally broken down. Do the same in a Japanese car, and after 3K > miles, the oil still appears somewhat clear, and drains like its still oil. > But, in the end, just an opinion. Thanks for reading it! Hmmm...well in the last month I have changed the oil in 3 Japanese vehicles, 1 American vehicle, and 2 farm tractors. The Japanese vehicle were my SO's 2007 Toyota RAV4 (not quite 3000 miles on the oil), my 2006 Nissan Frontier (about 5000 miles on the oil), and my Sister's 1998 Honda Civic (about 7500 miles on the oil). Not one had "somewhat clear oil." They were all as black as night. I sent the Frontier's oil off for analysis, and it came back as being in good condition. The only new car I've owned recently that seemed to not turn the oil black was my 2003 Saturn Vue. I also changed the oil in my Grand Marquis last weekend. It wasn't particualrly black, but I wouldn't claim it was "somewhat clear either." I owned a 2001 Mustang with the 4.6L V-8 and it would turn the oil black allmost instantly. I used to worry about this, but after sending the oil off for analysis, it always came back as being OK. It was interesting to compared oil analysis between the Frontier and the Vue. The Vue had an oil life monitor that adjusted the oil change interval based on certain parameters. I never trusted it. I once let the car go to 7000 miles and the monitor never said I needed to change the oil. When I changed the oil, I sent it off for analysis. I was using Mobil 1 5W30. The lab claimed the oil was in good condition and suggested that it was good for at least aother 3000 miles. For the Nissan Frontier, I sent off an analysis of oil that had been in use for just less than 5000 miles. This was also Mobil 1 5W30. The analysis showed the oil to be in acceptable condition, but the indication was that I had changed it at about the correct interval. I believer the biggest difference between the two engines was the filter. The Vue engine used a cartridge type filter of a decent size. The Frontier's filter is tiny (but well made). I have to believe the Vue's filter was doing a better job of removing contaminants. Ed "I currently have a 2006 Nissan Frontier. In 9 months it has been back to the dealer 4 times. Nothing major, but still inconvenient. My father owned Ford Rangers from the early 80 until today. All of his Rangers combined were not back to the dealer 4 times." I wouldn't use that as an example of long term quality. My Infiniti has been back to the dealer 4-5 times since I got it in Jan '04. All minor stuff too. However in contrast to Ford, the Infiniti dealer fixes things on the first shot. Unlike the Ford dealer who is "No Problem Found". And they really have not done anything to the Rangers since the 80's, so it better be a reliable truck! :) "younger sister has a 6 years old Escape. She has needed two repairs - a coolant level sensor handled under warranty and a cruise control cable that I installed ($12)." Better luck than my wife's '03 which at 48k has been to the dealer a couple times. Most recently it has a starting issue when it's cold outside and you use it, let it sit for 2 hours or so. It will sputter and then maybe start. Been to Ford 2x and "No problem found". Seems like an old choke that needs adjustment. " Over the past 10 years I owned two Ford Expedition that I drove for a total of 240,000 miles. I had a few problems (1 power window, 1 alternator, a couple of recalls) but they were mostly trouble free." You had better experiences than me - I used to be a Ford guy ('86 Mustang, '87 Escort, '97 Mustang, '00 Explorer).... The Explorer was a POS from day one. Back to the dealer frequently. At 58k it decided to eat the transmission (mind you I changed fluid @ 30k, never towed or off roaded), by 65k the engine was making some weird noises (despite Mobil1 and 5k oil changes) which were common on the SOHC. I do take care of my cars and hoped that Explorer would last. However that was what drove me to Infiniti. At 50k, my G35 is tighter than any Ford I owned at that mileage. I truly expect this car to be a 200k car. "I currently have a 2006 Nissan Frontier. In 9 months it has been back to the dealer 4 times. Nothing major, but still inconvenient. My father owned Ford Rangers from the early 80 until today. All of his Rangers combined were not back to the dealer 4 times." I wouldn't use that as an example of long term quality. My Infiniti has been back to the dealer 4-5 times since I got it in Jan '04. All minor stuff too. However in contrast to Ford, the Infiniti dealer fixes things on the first shot. Unlike the Ford dealer who is "No Problem Found". And they really have not done anything to the Rangers since the 80's, so it better be a reliable truck! :) "younger sister has a 6 years old Escape. She has needed two repairs - a coolant level sensor handled under warranty and a cruise control cable that I installed ($12)." Better luck than my wife's '03 which at 48k has been to the dealer a couple times. Most recently it has a starting issue when it's cold outside and you use it, let it sit for 2 hours or so. It will sputter and then maybe start. Been to Ford 2x and "No problem found". Seems like an old choke that needs adjustment. " Over the past 10 years I owned two Ford Expedition that I drove for a total of 240,000 miles. I had a few problems (1 power window, 1 alternator, a couple of recalls) but they were mostly trouble free." You had better experiences than me - I used to be a Ford guy ('86 Mustang, '87 Escort, '97 Mustang, '00 Explorer).... The Explorer was a POS from day one. Back to the dealer frequently. At 58k it decided to eat the transmission (mind you I changed fluid @ 30k, never towed or off roaded), by 65k the engine was making some weird noises (despite Mobil1 and 5k oil changes) which were common on the SOHC. I do take care of my cars and hoped that Explorer would last. However that was what drove me to Infiniti. At 50k, my G35 is tighter than any Ford I owned at that mileage. I truly expect this car to be a 200k car. > It all depends on what you want from the car. I see them both as great > cars, but Toyota sacrifices a lot of performance and sportiness [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -mike w While I agree with your comparison between Toyota and Nissan in terms of sportiness(Camry SE Sport? puh-leease:)) Of course, a Camry V6 or Avalon will blow the doors of most anything on the road now, but still, they're image is off, so to speak. Like an accountant on steroids:) I do find your comment about intricate technological features odd. Comparing Nissan to who? Toyota, Honda? I think they're all at the same level of intricate technology. Just wondering. CD My reference to intricate features is just an impression, not a direct comparison. It just seems that Nissan is quicker to slap on things like variable intake runners and stuff like that. My 90 GXE appeared to be ridiculously complex under the hood - the cooling system is an octopus of aluminum tubes and housings, and half a dozen heater and bypass hoses. And, anyone check out the heater temperature control system? The slider controls some sort of duty-cycled solenoid that controls vacuum flow to the heater control valve. That is an overelegant design that works great, but is doomed to fail in such a way that requires either an expert or someone with a lot of time on their hands to diagnose. Looking at a Camry of the same vintage reveals simplicity - lots of room around the engine; neat, tidy and simple. Just an impression. Sometimes makes me long for any one of the several Datsun Zs I've owned, and maybe could still work on... -mike w >>It all depends on what you want from the car. I see them both as great >>cars, but Toyota sacrifices a lot of performance and sportiness [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > CD > My reference to intricate features is just an impression, not a direct > comparison. It just seems that Nissan is quicker to slap on things like [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > -mike w I got the same impression . . in reverse!:) I used to own a 87 Toyota supra turbo and found all these little hoses on the car that I thought made things un-necessarily complex. I compared to to my later 98 Nisaan Maxima wwhose engine I found to be sophisticated but still easy to work on and relatively easy to understand. CD >Hello, All! >I know it may sound strange, but i have a question about subj. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Thanks >D. Get a Diesel Toyota pickup. They are the favoured vehicle for all war zone militia and terrorists for good reason. Top Gear TV in UK put one on top of a 15 story building and them blew the building out from under it. With a new battery, patch on fuel tank and plastic temporary windscreen it drove away. Petrol engine one would just explode and burn. -- Peter Hill Spamtrap reply domain as per NNTP-Posting-Host in header Can of worms - what every fisherman wants. Can of worms - what every PC owner gets! > Get a Diesel Toyota pickup. They are the favoured vehicle for all war > zone militia and terrorists for good reason. Top Gear TV in UK put > one on top of a 15 story building and them blew the building out from > under it. With a new battery, patch on fuel tank and plastic > temporary windscreen it drove away. Petrol engine one would just > explode and burn. :-) Heh, if i wanted one of those diesels i'd be driving russian BTR-90. Not only reliable but also fun to drive. besides not every direct stinger's shot can get it. http://www.milrus.com/sv/btr90/img/img8.shtml D > Get a Diesel Toyota pickup. They are the favoured vehicle for all war > zone militia and terrorists for good reason. Top Gear TV in UK put > one on top of a 15 story building and them blew the building out from > under it. With a new battery, patch on fuel tank and plastic > temporary windscreen it drove away. Petrol engine one would just > explode and burn. Amazing! I just watched it on youtube - Wow! Btw, I really envy the UK for *this* programme - Top Gear is just great! Kind regards robert > Get a Diesel Toyota pickup. They are the favoured vehicle for all war > zone militia and terrorists for good reason. Top Gear TV in UK put > one on top of a 15 story building and them blew the building out from > under it. With a new battery, patch on fuel tank and plastic > temporary windscreen it drove away. Petrol engine one would just > explode and burn. I saw that episode. It was totally silly. They did a lot of stupid things to the truck, but I'll wager any other vehicle could have been made to run with the proper off camera repairs. And although it "drove" away, even Top Gear admitted the frame was broken in two. A local farmer had one of the Toyota diesel trucks. He still loves to talk about how great it was. He just usually doesn't mention that he rebuilt the engine once, the transmission twice and that the bed rotted out in less than 10 years. Yeah, a really great truck. And at least for now, Toyota doesn't sell diesels in the US. Ed > Hello, All! > I know it may sound strange, but i have a question about subj. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > worth the money? I only would do it if Lexus is not that much trouble and > their reliability is what Toyota and all those consumer reports claim. My To each his own, but they don't call Toyotas "Japanese Buicks" for nothing. > Max is only 5 years old but it already started falling apart. I looked at > the bottom it's all rusty , i just don't believe it will survive another > couple of years. So if anyone can advise, how much is it possible to > compare The underbody of a car isn't going to stay rust-free unless you keep it in the garage and never drive it in the snow. It's just not possible. I have an '03 that is about to celebrate its 4th birthday on the road, and with the exception of a string of crappy Bose head units, it's been perfect (FWIW I live in the Michigan "rust belt"). Most of the rust you're seeing is simply "surface rust", and won't affect anything. Sure, some components such as the exhaust will need to be replaced sooner or later, but that's normal. Sounds to me like you're trying to justify the purchase of a new car, and hey, that's cool. Just don't knock Nissan for something that ALL cars do. >> Hello, All! >> I know it may sound strange, but i have a question about subj. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >To each his own, but they don't call Toyotas "Japanese Buicks" for nothing. ..??? What does that mean? I have never, ever heard anyone use that term before. Who is "they"? >> Max is only 5 years old but it already started falling apart. I looked at >> the bottom it's all rusty , i just don't believe it will survive another [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >exception of a string of crappy Bose head units, it's been perfect (FWIW I >live in the Michigan "rust belt"). ...I disagree about the underbody rusting. That was true in older vehicles but it just isn't so with modern cars. The underbodies are not only undercoated at the factories but also use specially treated metals that resist rusting for that very reason. After 10 years? Maybe some rusting, but that's going to be from areas around the fender wells or other areas subject to deep rock chips. And, if what you say is true, there wouldn't be any car in the "rust belt" that would sellable after a few short years. Are you telling me that nobody sells used cars there that aren't piles of rust? >Most of the rust you're seeing is simply "surface rust", and won't affect >anything. Sure, some components such as the exhaust will need to be >replaced sooner or later, but that's normal. .."surface rust" is rust. If left untreated, it'll eat away at the metal like any other rust condition. A lot of times, surface rust is the *last* indication of internal rust eating it's way out. Ask anyone who's owned any older model 240/260/280z's. I had two '76 Nissan 280z's and, although they were great cars to drive, the frames were notorious for rusting from the inside out. And by the time they started showing on the surface, it was WAY too late to do anything about it but retrofit an aftermarket subframe. >Sounds to me like you're trying to justify the purchase of a new car, and >hey, that's cool. Just don't knock Nissan for something that ALL cars do. ..agreed! >>To each his own, but they don't call Toyotas "Japanese Buicks" for >>nothing. >> > ..??? What does that mean? I have never, ever heard anyone use that > term before. Who is "they"? Various people both IRL and automotive forums I visit. It's not a derogatory term, BTW, it just makes reference to the soft, Buick-y ride that most Toyotas/Lexii have. > And, if what you say is true, there wouldn't be any car in the "rust > belt" that would sellable after a few short years. Are you telling me > that nobody sells used cars there that aren't piles of rust? Well, it is true that cars owned and used in northern states have lower resale than ones in southern states, with the exception of 4WD vehicles. I didn't mean to give you the idea that the "rust" you see on the underbodies of cars is fatal, in some cases it's not rust at all. See below. > .."surface rust" is rust. If left untreated, it'll eat away at the > metal like any other rust condition. A lot of times, surface rust is Now technically, when metal oxidizes you get rust. I'm no engineer, but I've read that some of those components are made so that they rust to a certain degree (i.e. "surface rust") by design. This is so the resulting layer (e.g. aluminum oxide) actually protects the metal beneath, preserving the integrity of the part itself. You'd have to ask someone who actually knows what the hell they're talking about if you want more detail. I'd kind of like to know myself why component mfgs do this. > Now technically, when metal oxidizes you get rust. I'm no engineer, but > I've read that some of those components are made so that they rust to a > certain degree (i.e. "surface rust") by design. This is so the resulting > layer (e.g. aluminum oxide) actually protects the metal beneath, preserving > the integrity of the part itself. That what they do with airplanes which have their entire body made out of aluminum. It doesn't apply to cars, unless its an Audi A8;) The most aluminum you usually see in a car is in the engine block. CD >> Now technically, when metal oxidizes you get rust. I'm no >> engineer, but I've read that some of those components are [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Audi A8;) The most aluminum you usually see in a car is in the > engine block. Agreed. A surface coating of aluminium oxide (Al2O3) is reasonably impervious to air and moisture, protecting the metal underneath from further oxidation. The situation with iron/steel is very different. Iron oxidizes in air to ferric oxide (Fe2O3, rust), which is porous, and gives no protection at all. John Depends on the steel. Corten (sp?) steel rusts a little, then no more. >>> Now technically, when metal oxidizes you get rust. I'm no >>> engineer, but I've read that some of those components are [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > John > Depends on the steel. Corten (sp?) steel rusts a little, then > no more. On my understanding, this surface discoloration of Corten steel is not rust. Stainless steel likewise does not rust. John Sure looks like rust anyway. We used to have a building in Maryland built of Corten. It was known in the company as "The Rusty Bucket". Chuck Tribolet >> Depends on the steel. Corten (sp?) steel rusts a little, then >> no more. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > John |
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