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Car Forum / Nissan / Nissan Cars / May 2008Consider buying American!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ GM just made it known that they lost 39 billion in 2007, the largest ever annual loss for a US automaker. The big three are losing money, and if we don't give them the support they need, they are going to go under. Consider buying an American car. Here are some American models recommended in the 2007 Consumer Reports Annual Auto Issue: Buick Lacrosse Buick Lucerne Cadillac CTS Cadillac CTS-V Cadillac DTS Chevrolet HHR Chevrolet Impala Chevrolet Malibu Chevrolet Tahoe Chrysler 300 Chrysler PT Cruiser Dodge Durango Ford Five Hundred Ford Focus Ford Freestyle Ford Fusion GMC Yukon Jeep Liberty Lincoln MKZ Lincoln Town Car Mercury Milan Mercury Montego Pontiac G6 Pontiac Torrent > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Pontiac G6 > Pontiac Torrent What about Toyotas and Hondas made in America? What the Ford Fusion, made in Mexico? Shouldn't the Michigan 3 make their vehicles relevant to me rather than the other way around? Jeff > buydomes...@usa.com wrote: > >http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > What about Toyotas and Hondas made in America? Toyota and Honda assemble cars all over the world, but the profits go back to Japan. >> buydomes...@usa.com wrote: >>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Toyota and Honda assemble cars all over the world, but the profits go > back to Japan. how much tax do the big three pay here vs. the japanese? >>> buydomes...@usa.com wrote: >>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > how much tax do the big three pay here vs. the japanese? and how many americans do they employ? >>>> buydomes...@usa.com wrote: >>>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > and how many americans do they employ? The Japanese subsidies of Toyota and Honda pay corporate income tax to states and the federal gov't as well as local property and other taxes. How much in taxes they pay is not known. Neither the auto companies nor the government bodies release the tax information. You're welcome to search the internet or the even the Toyota and Honda websites to find out how many people they employ. Jeff <snip> >>> how much tax do the big three pay here vs. the japanese? >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > You're welcome to search the internet or the even the Toyota and Honda > websites to find out how many people they employ. If you're interested, I'd start with the Investor Relations site for the various companies. >> buydomes...@usa.com wrote: >>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Toyota and Honda assemble cars all over the world, but the profits go > back to Japan. And some of those profits come back to the US. Plus, Toyota and Honda pay US income taxes and employ US workers. The Michigan 3 need to make themselves relevant to use, not the other way around. Jeff On Feb 12, 8:46 am, buydomes...@usa.com wrote: > > buydomes...@usa.com wrote: > > >http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Really! I would think the profits go first to the US subsidiaries to pay for taxes, salaries, helathcare, workers's comp, plant modernization, worker education. U.S. subsidiaries of Japanese auto makers use the same ratio of pay differences between a manager and his/ her direct reports as they do in Japan. Japan make a car that goes 250,000 miles without major repairs, runs like brand new till it falls apart or we just give it to someone. Korea, somewhat new to auto making, can do the same. But the US car companies make sh.t. Answer that for me. I have a few ideas but you can go first. People are also dumping VWs for the same reasons Americans are dumping U.S. cars. > On Feb 12, 8:46 am, buydomes...@usa.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > companies make sh.t. Answer that for me. I have a few ideas but you > can go first. Some cars made by XXXX (put in name of Korean, Japanese or American car company) are really good, some are so-so and some are really bad. That's true for all car companies. The proportion of bad American cars used to be higher, but now, the American car companies are coming out with some really good cars. And, the Japanese car companies made some really bad cars, too. jeff > People are also dumping VWs for the same reasons Americans are dumping > U.S. cars. > Some cars made by XXXX (put in name of Korean, Japanese or American car > company) are really good, some are so-so and some are really bad. That's > true for all car companies. The proportion of bad American cars used to > be higher, but now, the American car companies are coming out with some > really good cars. And, the Japanese car companies made some really bad > cars, too. Joe Sixpack has $25,000 to spend on a car. That's a bunch of money to him, and he doesn't want to waste it. No matter what he does, he rolls the dice. So, what does he do? Does he buy GM or Ford or Chrysler, with a track record that would make a Russian tractory factory blush from embarassment? Or does he buy a Japanese nameplate--where, to be sure, one could get a bad car, but the odds are so incredibly against that? >> Some cars made by XXXX (put in name of Korean, Japanese or American car >> company) are really good, some are so-so and some are really bad. That's [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Japanese nameplate--where, to be sure, one could get a bad car, but the > odds are so incredibly against that? The old track record for the Michigan 3 isn't so good. But the track record for the more recent cars is good. Jeff >>> Some cars made by XXXX (put in name of Korean, Japanese or American car >>> company) are really good, some are so-so and some are really bad. That's [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Jeff Ford is recalling a SHITLOAD of SUVs and vans (2006 and 2007 models) over problems that can result in the car burning to the ground. Seems they've had a lot of these over the past decade or so... >>>> Some cars made by XXXX (put in name of Korean, Japanese or American car >>>> company) are really good, some are so-so and some are really bad. That's [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > over problems that can result in the car burning to the ground. Seems > they've had a lot of these over the past decade or so... And Toyota has had a lot of recalls last year and the year before. Please tell me the automaker who never makes any mistakes. Jeff > >>> Does he buy GM or Ford or Chrysler, with a track record that would make > >>> a Russian tractory factory blush from embarassment? Or does he buy a [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Please tell me the automaker who never makes any mistakes. Please go back and READ what I wrote. The ODDS of a serious mistake and/or a shitty car and/or a car that's worn out at 60K miles are HUGELY better on an American nameplate. HUGELY better. The odds of getting a solid, reliable car that will last a very long time with small maintenance and repair bills, and small fuel bills, are INCREDIBLY better for a Japanese nameplate. So, you're Joe Sixpack--where do you put your hard-earned $25,000? And don't spout back to me about "well, I found a lemon Toyota once...." We're talking the HUGE difference in ODDS here. Inexecusably large difference. >>>>> Some cars made by XXXX (put in name of Korean, Japanese or American >>>>> car company) are really good, some are so-so and some are really bad. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Jeff Tucker! >>>>>> Some cars made by XXXX (put in name of Korean, Japanese or American >>>>>> car company) are really good, some are so-so and some are really bad. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> >> And Toyota has had a lot of recalls last year and the year before. The most recalled passenger car of 2007? The Nissan Altima (6 recalls). The most recalled passenger car of 2006? The Honda Civic (4 recalls). I remember several years back when Chevy had to recall a quarter million trucks to fix a cruise control switch and it made the front page of nearly every paper, including the Money section of the USA Today. In that EXACT edition of USA Today Money Section, on page 6, was an article about Toyota having to recall and extend the powertrain warranties on 3.2 million cars (mostly Camry and Corolla) due to engine sludge issues. The highest percentage of vehicles recalled over the past 5 years is not Ford or Chevy, it's Toyota. And that is why the Chairman of Toyota had to issue a public apology in the Japanese press > > Does he buy GM or Ford or Chrysler, with a track record that would make > > a Russian tractory factory blush from embarassment? Or does he buy a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The old track record for the Michigan 3 isn't so good. But the track > record for the more recent cars is good. But it's not NEARLY enough of a track record compared to the Japanese nameplates--not nearly enough for Joe Sixpack to throw his hard earned $25,000. >>> Does he buy GM or Ford or Chrysler, with a track record that would make >>> a Russian tractory factory blush from embarassment? Or does he buy a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > nameplates--not nearly enough for Joe Sixpack to throw his hard earned > $25,000. Funny, the only carmaker to have increased sales last month was GM. I guess you don't know Joe. Jeff > > But it's not NEARLY enough of a track record compared to the Japanese > > nameplates--not nearly enough for Joe Sixpack to throw his hard earned [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I guess you don't know Joe. You keep wanting to focus on things so narrowly, and hope that you can convince someone that it's a trend. "The only carmaker to have increased sales last month was GM." Last month. Show me the last 20 years. "I found a lemon Toyota once." Once. Show me the last 200 million vehicles. GM, Ford, Chrysler--losers. Japanese nameplates--winners. >> > But it's not NEARLY enough of a track record compared to the Japanese >> > nameplates--not nearly enough for Joe Sixpack to throw his hard earned [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > "I found a lemon Toyota once." Once. Show me the last 200 million > vehicles. GM, Ford, Chrysler--losers. Japanese nameplates--winners. You won't get a lemon at Toyota of Orange. "Robert A. Cunningham" ... > You won't get a lemon at Toyota of Orange. Orange you glad you know this? > "Robert A. Cunningham" ... >> You won't get a lemon at Toyota of Orange. > Orange you glad you know this? Yes, I think it is very appeeling, and we're not talking pulp fiction here either. :) >>>> Does he buy GM or Ford or Chrysler, with a track record that would >>>> make a Russian tractory factory blush from embarassment? Or does he [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Funny, the only carmaker to have increased sales last month was GM. "One swallow does not a summer make" >>>>> Does he buy GM or Ford or Chrysler, with a track record that would >>>>> make a Russian tractory factory blush from embarassment? Or does he [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > "One swallow does not a summer make" per Monica Lewinski :) >>>>>> Does he buy GM or Ford or Chrysler, with a track record that would >>>>>> make a Russian tractory factory blush from embarassment? Or does he [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> "One swallow does not a summer make" > per Monica Lewinski :) LOL- I'd forgotten all about Monica. What's she up to these days, anyway? Do you think she's hoping Hillary is elected? ;) on 2/12/2008 6:33 PM Jeff said the following: >>>> Does he buy GM or Ford or Chrysler, with a track record that would >>>> make a Russian tractory factory blush from embarassment? Or does [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Jeff Maybe for the last month, but how about the whole previous year? http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hrfGP53YnWGipuckEK3htwwlCw6AD8UOVK4G1 http://tinyurl.com/33xdmz  SignatureBill In Hamptonburgh, NY To email, remove the double zeroes after @ >>buydomes...@usa.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Toyota and Honda assemble cars all over the world, but the profits go > back to Japan. So? They, (Honda/Toyota) build a far superior product. JT >>> buydomes...@usa.com wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > JT They used to. But, the Michigan 3 also build good cars. > > They, (Honda/Toyota) build a far superior product. > > > > JT > > They used to. But, the Michigan 3 also build good cars. The Michigan 3 have improved. So have the Japanese nameplates. Jeff, nothing will change simple facts. Your precious Michigan 3 created sucky products, and are now trying to play in a very mature market of good cars. When you're Joe Sixpack and plunking down your $25,000... >> buydomes...@usa.com wrote: >> >http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >Toyota and Honda assemble cars all over the world, but the profits go >back to Japan. Whereas the domestic manufacturers don't even have profits. >>> What about Toyotas and Hondas made in America? >> >>Toyota and Honda assemble cars all over the world, but the profits go >>back to Japan. > > Whereas the domestic manufacturers don't even have profits. Excellent point. >>> buydomes...@usa.com wrote: >>> >http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Whereas the domestic manufacturers don't even have profits. Not only do they not have profits, they get tax credits for the money they lose. But I guess it's ok, 'cause it stays in the U.S. ;) >> Whereas the domestic manufacturers don't even have profits. > >Not only do they not have profits, they get tax credits for the money they >lose. >But I guess it's ok, 'cause it stays in the U.S. ;) You misunderstand the tax system. You don't get a "tax credit" for a loss. You pay taxes on PROFITS. If you don't have any profits, you don't pay taxes. You want to talk about tax credits, look at the oil companies. There was a bill this year that would have ended preferential tax rules for oil companies. Note that Exxon had record $40b profits again this year and other oil companies did similarly well. Bush vetoed that idea because he claimed that eliminating their special treatment would be a "tax increase" (Apparently not giving his incredibly profitable friends special tax treatment is not fair). I'm not aware of any special rules for the auto industry. >>> Whereas the domestic manufacturers don't even have profits. >> Not only do they not have profits, they get tax credits for the money they [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > oil companies. Note that Exxon had record $40b profits again this year > and other oil companies did similarly well. WoW! $40 billion already this year! And we're only 1 and 1/2 months into the year. That's better than I hoped for. Most of the $40 billion in profit last year was from outside the country. > Bush vetoed that idea > because he claimed that eliminating their special treatment would be a > "tax increase" (Apparently not giving his incredibly profitable > friends special tax treatment is not fair). Can you tell us what this special tax treatment is? > I'm not aware of any special rules for the auto industry. Of the $40 Billion that ExxonMobil made last year, 75% was from outside the US. Jeff On Feb 15, 1:45 am, "Robert A. Cunningham" <infojun...@dslextreme.com> wrote: > >>Toyota and Honda assemble cars all over the world, but the profits go > >>back to Japan. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > lose. > But I guess it's ok, 'cause it stays in the U.S. except, of course, for the part that goes into the pockets of the executives and is spent abroad. I would feel like an idiot pumping money into a company that is hemorrhaging money so bad that they are getting handouts from the government, but still manage to pay their executives tens of millions of dollars. Chrysler chairman and CEO Robert Eaton made $16 million in 1997, when Chrysler was losing money so badly it had to get bailed out. In contrast, Jurgen Schrempp, CEO of highly lucrative Daimler who bought them out, made $2.5 million. In 2006, Ford CEO Alan Mulally made $28,183,476 in total compensation according to the SEC. In 2006, GM CEO Richard Wagoner made $10,191,153 in total compensation according to the SEC. "Analyst Ron Tadross at Banc of America Securities estimates the total annual compensation of Toyota's CEO at under $1 million - about as much as a vice president at GM or Ford Motor Co. makes in a good year." http://management.curiouscatblog.net/2005/11/28/toyota-manufacturing-powerhouse/ "Toyota's 32 top executives received just over $12 million in salaries in the 12 months ended March. Lets see Toyota made something like $13,000,000,000 in profits. With the top 32 executives getting about $20,000,000 [including $8 million in bonuses] that is .15% of earnings. Even if there are some other benefits not included in the total that .15% figure for the top 32 executives doesn't really compare to ludicrous pay of many CEOs in the USA. They are in a different paradigm than the others. I think their paradigm is much more effective (and the pay is the symptom of that system). I'll take the executives of Toyota over the overpaid executives any time." http://management.curiouscatblog.net/2007/06/23/no-excessive-senior-executive-pa y-at-toyota/ "Honda doesn't disclose executive pay in detail, but the sum of salaries and bonuses that Fukui shares with 36 board members, $13 million, is just about enough for the boss at a big American company." http://www.forbes.com/global/2006/0904/040.html but look at it this way; the GM CEO's salary only accounts for a couple of percent of the company's net loss; it wouldn't help all that much to pay him nothing, so he might as well get $10 million, wtf. On Feb 12, 8:46 am, buydomes...@usa.com wrote: > > buydomes...@usa.com wrote: > > >http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Toyota and Honda assemble cars all over the world, but the profits go > back to Japan ? the profits go to the shareholders, which are mainly large international funds, many of which are probably in your pension plan. >> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Jeff er, leaving quality issues to one side, what percentage of these "domestic" vehicles are made here? the "big three" all source a significant proportion of componentry from china. a lot of assembly is done in mexico. honda and toyota both source and assemble here. >>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ >>> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > er, leaving quality issues to one side, what percentage of these > "domestic" vehicles are made here? About 70 to 80% of the parts that go into the Michigan 3 cars come from the US or Canada. For Hondas and Toyotas, the numbers of similar, but only for the cars they make in the US. > the "big three" all source a > significant proportion of componentry from china. a lot of assembly is > done in mexico. honda and toyota both source and assemble here. Still, a higher proportion of the parts that go into US cars and trucks made by the Michigan 3 are made in the US or Canada compared to the foreign car makers. Toyota has plants in Mexico, as well. > >> buydomes...@usa.com wrote: > >>>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > > - Show quoted text - why do we include canada as 'domestic'? not that i have anything against canada, god knows, but if we're going to be jingoistic, let's be jingoistic. >> >> buydomes...@usa.com wrote: >> >>>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] >against canada, god knows, but if we're going to be jingoistic, let's >be jingoistic. ever get the feeling that you might be the only one watching this - after all you are about a week late. I'm waiting for the 12 year old to come back with his crap about timing chains v belts SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK <...> > why do we include canada as 'domestic'? not that i have anything > against canada, god knows, but if we're going to be jingoistic, let's > be jingoistic. Because that is the way they are reported on the content stickers on the cars when they are sold. The domestic content on the stickers includes both US and Canada. It has to do with a treaty between the US and Canada. Jeff ><...> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >cars when they are sold. The domestic content on the stickers includes >both US and Canada. It has to do with a treaty between the US and Canada. Which is a product of the (formerly Big) 3. They wanted the freedom to build cars in Canada and still be able to distinguish themselves from the "fern" manufacturers. A stroke of the legislative pen and voilla, Canada is domestic. >> <...> >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > from the "fern" manufacturers. A stroke of the legislative pen and > voilla, Canada is domestic. It's a treaty. It took a lot more than a stroke of the pen. The vast majority of the content from Michigan 3 cars comes from the US. Most of the Michigan 3 plants that produce cars for the US are in the US. Jeff >>> <...> >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >It's a treaty. It took a lot more than a stroke of the pen. OK, the strokes of two pens. The Automotive Products Trade Agreement, commonly known as the Auto Pact or APTA, was an important trade agreement between Canada and the United States. It was signed by Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson and President Lyndon B. Johnson in January of 1965.[1] It removed tariffs on cars, trucks, buses, tires, and automotive parts between the two country's, greatly benefiting the large American car makers. In exchange the big three car makers (General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler) agreed that automobile production in Canada would not fall below 1964 levels and that for every five new cars sold in Canada, three new ones would be made there. >The vast majority of the content from Michigan 3 cars comes from the US. Impossible to tell. You can get the percentage of domestic content on any given model. You cannot get the percentage of US content. "Domestic" built cars generally have a domestic content of 60 - 90%. Honda ranges 55 - 70%, Toyota 60 - 85%, Ford 60 - 95%, GM 50 - 90% Chrysler 69 - 85%. <http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-03-21-car-content-chart_N.htm?loc=inter stitialskip> >Most of the Michigan 3 plants that produce cars for the US are in the US. > >Jeff >>>> <...> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > fall below 1964 levels and that for every five new cars sold in > Canada, three new ones would be made there. I am sure that Johnson didn't say to Mr. Pearson, "Hey Les, lets make a treaty about how many cars you guys have to make!" There was a lot more than two pens. Is there any action required by Congress before a treaty becomes valid in the US? It was a different treaty that had to do with domestic content that labels stuff built in the US and Canada as domestic. It was a prelude to NAFTA. >> The vast majority of the content from Michigan 3 cars comes from the US. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > <http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-03-21-car-content-chart_N.htm?loc=inter stitialskip> Only about 1/2 of Japanese brand cars are build in the US. Look at the location of the plants that build car parts in the US. The vast majority of them are in the US for each of the Michigan 3. >> Most of the Michigan 3 plants that produce cars for the US are in the US. >> >> Jeff >>>>> <...> >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >treaty about how many cars you guys have to make!" There was a lot more >than two pens. I am aware that the requirements for ratifying a treaty are more rigorous than other legislation, but in the end it is just legislation. If big, multi-national corporations want it bad enough, it happens. How did NAFTA get passed? Was there a sudden groundswell of popular support for making cheap Mexican labor more available? >Is there any action required by Congress before a treaty becomes valid >in the US? [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >>> >>> Jeff CUT All this chat about Jobs, Money and the like - US is a big place where anyone can be president if he/she was actually born in the US. Any bugger can be King or Queen of England - at the moment we have German descendents but we have had Vikings, Dutch and even the French have tried - we have even given them a tunnel but they still can't make it! But hang on a mo! We now have an enlarged EU or rather a 3/4 USE (United States of Europe) with all your employment problems drifting in from the old Eastern Bloc and middle Far East car makers are being coerced or bought up by the big EU/US makers and even BMW are building in China and apparently selling there too. In the UK - like the US we are a multi racial society with all the problems that brings but now even the local Supermarket has 10% Polish/Lithuanian food on it's shelves and all the queues at the employment dept are Polish and ex Eastern Bloc as are 90 of the daytime drunks and they are also responsible for the 50% increase in attacks on women and actual rape. Kia are offering a 100K mile 7 year warranty on their new cars and the cheapest is around £7K or $14KUS. Rolls Royce now have 3 models on sale and are selling them like hot cakes and Bentley have at least 2 all sold out @ well over $400K each. So who is buying? No me or you I bet but someone is. Let alone Gas (not petrol) prices have gone up as have electricity prices Gas & Diesel is around $8 gallon and wages have increased by an average of 3% for the average Joe but 30% for those employing him/her. It doesn't matter whether you are in US or UK or EU Out Gov' say f.ck the workers (even Labour) and let's get out of it what we can. Anyway why cares a sh.t - when the Asteroid his us in 2012 they'll be nobody left. Hugh >>> It removed tariffs on cars, trucks, buses, tires, and automotive parts >>> between the two country's, greatly benefiting the large American car [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >>>> >>>> Jeff SignatureSir Hugh of Bognor The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Intelligence is not knowing the answer but knowing where and how to find it! Hugh Gundersen hsg@h-gee.co.uk Bognor Regis, W.Sussex, England, UK >I am aware that the requirements for ratifying a treaty are more >rigorous than other legislation, but in the end it is just >legislation. Not really. If it's actually a treaty, then the Senate has to ratify it. See the Constitution for more details. >If big, multi-national corporations want it bad enough, >it happens. How did NAFTA get passed? Was there a sudden groundswell >of popular support for making cheap Mexican labor more available? Yes, a groundswell from all the manufacturers who want cheap labor :-). Cousins to the folks GWB was helping out with his "rotating door" of illegal aliens in his immigration legislation. You know, the same guy who vetoed removing the special tax exemptions granted to oil companies because it was a "tax increase" (Which Exxon could only barely afford, with their meager $40b profits on top of last year's $40b profits). >>I am aware that the requirements for ratifying a treaty are more >>rigorous than other legislation, but in the end it is just >>legislation. > >Not really. If it's actually a treaty, then the Senate has to ratify >it. See the Constitution for more details. Are you aware that US Presidents can sign binding treaties without consent of Congress (so-called executive agreements)? In fact about 90% of our treaties are enacted in this way. About the only time the President seeks the formal treaty process is if he needs Congress to pass supporting legislation and funding. >>If big, multi-national corporations want it bad enough, >>it happens. How did NAFTA get passed? Was there a sudden groundswell [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >barely afford, with their meager $40b profits on top of last year's >$40b profits). Yeah, I know the guy. But keep in mind that Bill Clinton gave us NAFTA. I think his wife is paying for it now. >>>> <...> >>>> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >> >>Jeff Can't believe this discussion is still taking place in this day and age of global commerce. <...> > Can't believe this discussion is still taking place in this day and age of > global commerce. Take a look at the campaign for president in Ohio. For some odd reason, people in Ohio don't like NAFTA. They have this weird thing about wanting jobs. Jeff > <...> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > people in Ohio don't like NAFTA. They have this weird thing about > wanting jobs. Very much the same in MI. >> <...> >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > from the "fern" manufacturers. A stroke of the legislative pen and > voilla, Canada is domestic. Interesting, but the Stoned Wheat Thins from Red Oval Farms I buy are labeled "imported". >> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> they need, they are going to go under. Consider buying an American >> car. Snipped >What about Toyotas and Hondas made in America? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Jeff You are right Jeff. There are no American Car companies anymore. The only difference between "American" and "Japanese" companies is where they are incorporated. American cars are assembled in the USA, Mexico or Canada with parts made all over the world. The same holds true with Toyota and Honda. Jack >> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Jeff Where do the profits go? The profits for Japanese manufacturers, no matter where the car is built, go to Japan. It sucks revenue out of our economy. >>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ >>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > matter where the car is built, go to Japan. It sucks revenue out of our > economy. The profits from the American subsidies of Honda and Toyota are taxed the same way American companies are taxed, because, legally, they are American companies. Jeff > > buydomes...@usa.com wrote: > >>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > Where do the profits go? The profits for Japanese manufacturers, no matter > where the car is built, go to Japan. It sucks revenue out of our economy. And of course the Japanese (and Chinese) are financing our national debt (like paying for the Iraqi adventure) by investing their profits in federal paper. It all goes around.... >>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ >>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > matter where the car is built, go to Japan. It sucks revenue out of our > economy. Consumers are voting with their dollars, Detroit needs to change the way it does business or die. >>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ >>>> [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > Consumers are voting with their dollars, Detroit needs to change the way > it does business or die. Just level the playing field. Institute the identical taxes and tariffs on Japanese cars as the Japanese place on American cars. Then let's see what happens. >>>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >Japanese cars as the Japanese place on American cars. Then let's see what >happens. There are no tariffs on auto imports to Japan. > Just level the playing field. Institute the identical taxes and tariffs on > Japanese cars as the Japanese place on American cars. Then let's see what > happens. That was done some time in the early-mid 1990s. So now what? >> Just level the playing field. Institute the identical taxes and tariffs >> on >> Japanese cars as the Japanese place on American cars. Then let's see what >> happens. > > That was done some time in the early-mid 1990s. So now what? Actually not. There are a multitude of taxes and tariffs and penalty fees on America cars and the parts within American cars sold in Japan that make them completely unsaleable price-wise in the Japanese market. That is why a law was recently passed in Japan to exempt from those tariffs and fees vehicles of a Japanese manufacturer that are being shipped form the U.S. back to Japan. If the playing field was level, why pass such a law? >>>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > on Japanese cars as the Japanese place on American cars. Then let's see > what happens. Who wants to import US cars? >>>>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > Who wants to import US cars? I hate to tell everybody this, but GM owns Ditech, the huge loan firm. Part of that 39 billion is more than likely related to the subprime mess. . . . Charles the Curmudgeon > Where do the profits go? The profits for Japanese > manufacturers, no matter where the car is built, go to > Japan. It sucks revenue out of our economy. The profits are distributed among all involved in producing the car. This includes Japanese executives (who surely spend a lot of time spending money in the U.S.), American employees of Honda and Toyota plants, and shareholders around the world, who get stock dividends. Any profits rolled back into the company serve all these folks, too. Some of the profits also go to American dealerships. Honda builds a great car, and American dealer franchise owners are getting their share. >Where do the profits go? The profits for Japanese manufacturers, no matter >where the car is built, go to Japan. It sucks revenue out of our economy. Hmmm... Wal-Mart - Send all your money to China. Used to be thier slogan was "Made in America", see where that went? Back in 1985, I hired a Buick Park Drive and a Pontiac Grand Am while in the USA. The Buick was passable, but with very sloppy suspension etc. The Grand Am was appalling, one of the worst cars I have ever driven and certainly the worst new one. At the time back in the UK I was driving a 1983 BMW 735i. Obviously this was better than most EU cars of that era, however the US cars of the time were laughable in comparison. The trouble [for the US car industry] is that 25 years after that 735i was built it is probably still better than most US cars sold today in almost every department. Some of them are still laughable e.g. the Chrysler PT Cruiser - poor drive, poor ride, poor handling, poor performance, poor trim, poor seats, poor reliability and so on. You would be better off in a ten year old base entry model 3 series than a new one of these. Incidentally GM probably make the best "mass market" cars in Europe. A man walks into a car spares shop and asks if they have a hub cap for a 1995 Lada - "sounds like a fair swap" says the chap behind the counter. >> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ >> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Jeff > Back in 1985, I hired a Buick Park Drive and a Pontiac Grand Am while in the > USA. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > poor seats, poor reliability and so on. You would be better off in a ten > year old base entry model 3 series than a new one of these. A BMW 735i probably cost about 3 times as much money as most American cars of the era, too. You get what you pay for, especially considering the high cost of maintaining such a vehicle. jeff Jeff >> Back in 1985, I hired a Buick Park Drive and a Pontiac Grand Am while in >> the USA. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > You get what you pay for, especially considering the high cost of > maintaining such a vehicle. But you don't have to replace it after just a few years. Obviously cars are / were not taxed as much in the USA and over there a BMW was a premium import. Where it was made it would be a lot cheaper. The main point was that a car designed and made in Europe a generation ago is still better than most US made cars now. The corrolory would be that current EU mass market cars (e.g. Ford Mondeo, Vauxhall Vectra etc.) are better than their BMW market equivalents (3 and 5 series) of the mid 80's. To put it another way the US is about 25 years behind Europe on car design, build and quality control. > jeff > > Jeff >>> The trouble [for the US car industry] is that 25 years after that 735i >>> was built it is probably still better than most US cars sold today in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> would be better off in a ten year old base entry model 3 series than a >>> new one of these. >But you don't have to replace it after just a few years. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >To put it another way the US is about 25 years behind Europe on car design, >build and quality control. You're thinking is flawed. It does not matter how many years have passed - an expensive care will always "beat" an inexpensive car in many of the areas you mentioned. On the other hand, newer cars should be expected to perform better on a per-dollar basis, have more and better safety features, and more modern conveniences. >You're thinking is flawed. It does not matter how many years have >passed - an expensive care will always "beat" an inexpensive car in >many of the areas you mentioned. You'd think so, but look at the current Cadillac offerings... they sure cost plenty, but the doors still don't fit right... --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > >>> The trouble [for the US car industry] is that 25 years after that 735i > >>> was built it is probably still better than most US cars sold today in [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > a per-dollar basis, have more and better safety features, and more > modern conveniences. I'm sorry but consumer reports recently showcased how a brand new 2008 BMW 7 series was lfar ess reliable than a 7 year old Lexus LS400. Expensive cars are definitely NOT automatically more reliable cars. CD > But you don't have to replace it after just a few years. Then don't. > The main point was that a car designed and made in Europe a generation ago > is still better than most US made cars now. That is total non-sense. It depends on what car you are talking about. > The corrolory would be that current EU mass market cars (e.g. Ford Mondeo, > Vauxhall Vectra etc.) are better than their BMW market equivalents (3 and > 5 series) of the mid 80's. > > To put it another way the US is about 25 years behind Europe on car > design, build and quality control. Then why do European cars have more problems than Japaness and American? Not to mention they cost a fortune. >> But you don't have to replace it after just a few years. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Then why do European cars have more problems than Japaness and American? Not > to mention they cost a fortune. I haven't heard of a lot of major problems for Mercedes Benz or BMW. but they are expensive to repair. I remember in my younger days, I took apart a MB engine, I think from a late 70s MB. The engine was much more complicated to disassemble than a US V8. There were more head bolts, the oil pan came in two pieces, and there were a lot more parts than in a US V8. I didn't see the bill for the engine rebuild, but I bet it was more than for a Chevy 350. And in the old days, the electrical systems on Jags were just bad. I remember hearing about a metal rod that was supposed to conduct electricity in a Jag. It just stopped conducting electricity beyond a point on the rod. I don't remember what the rod was for, though. VWs and presumably Audis have a lot of problems, though, according to the reports I hear. And they aren't cheap to fix, either. Actually, I don't remember too many problems with Swedish cars. i don't remember if it is because they were better than the other or just less common. Jeff Jeff >I haven't heard of a lot of major problems for Mercedes Benz or BMW. but >they are expensive to repair. I remember in my younger days, I took [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >V8. I didn't see the bill for the engine rebuild, but I bet it was more >than for a Chevy 350. There was a comparison in one of the magazines, recently, between GM's LS7 and the Mercedes/AMG 6.2L engine. Very similar performance, but the GM engine was was under $10k, while the AMG engine costs $50k! As much as I admire the engineering in engines like the AMD and BMW's 4.0 V8 in the M3, I really question the expense of wringing so much power out of "smaller" motors like that. stupid... wringing? it is called efficiency. M5=V10 with 507 HP More than 100hp per Litre capacity.... BRILLIANCE. >>I haven't heard of a lot of major problems for Mercedes Benz or BMW. but >>they are expensive to repair. I remember in my younger days, I took [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > 4.0 V8 in the M3, I really question the expense of wringing so much > power out of "smaller" motors like that. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > stupid... wringing? > it is called efficiency. > M5=V10 with 507 HP > More than 100hp per Litre capacity.... BRILLIANCE. honda have had high specific outputs like that [or higher] since the late 80's iirc. http://asia.vtec.net/spfeature/vtecimpl/vtec1.html shows outputs. need to confirm dates. >>> I haven't heard of a lot of major problems for Mercedes Benz or BMW. but >>> they are expensive to repair. I remember in my younger days, I took [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> 4.0 V8 in the M3, I really question the expense of wringing so much >> power out of "smaller" motors like that. >stupid... Top posting is stupid, yes. >wringing? Yes. >it is called efficiency. It's called RPM's. >M5=V10 with 507 HP >More than 100hp per Litre capacity.... BRILLIANCE. More cost with no gain... EXPENSIVE >> I haven't heard of a lot of major problems for Mercedes Benz or BMW. but >> they are expensive to repair. I remember in my younger days, I took [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > 4.0 V8 in the M3, I really question the expense of wringing so much > power out of "smaller" motors like that. Rich Germans want to zoom along the Autobahns, yet there's a tax based on displacement (also cylinders, etc.). On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:21:20 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote >And in the old days, the electrical systems on Jags were just bad. No one ever said anything good about Lucas electrics in a car. >VWs and presumably Audis have a lot of problems, though, according to >the reports I hear. And they aren't cheap to fix, either. Prices a re really getting comparable, although the mechanics charge what the US luxury brands charge. What's really laughable is when the Lexus repair rate is higher than the Toyota repair rate, and the same mechanics do the work on both. >Actually, I don't remember too many problems with Swedish cars. i don't >remember if it is because they were better than the other or just less >common. Well, they were reliable before GM & Ford bought into them big time :-) > >And in the old days, the electrical systems on Jags were just bad. > No one ever said anything good about Lucas electrics in a car. Lucas made the electrics for Rolls Royce and they were fine. Jaguar were notorious for beating their suppliers down cost wise. The first XJ6 used the very cheapest switch gear in the Lucas line up. Signature*Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> >And in the old days, the electrical systems on Jags were just bad. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >notorious for beating their suppliers down cost wise. The first XJ6 used >the very cheapest switch gear in the Lucas line up. Maybe Lucas, or RR, did something nicer at that level. Ask anyone else who's ever worked on a Lucas system on any other British or Italian car and they will tell you about Lucas quality. Lucas headlights had a three position switch - dim, flicker, and off. > >Lucas made the electrics for Rolls Royce and they were fine. Jaguar were > >notorious for beating their suppliers down cost wise. The first XJ6 used > >the very cheapest switch gear in the Lucas line up. > Maybe Lucas, or RR, did something nicer at that level. Ask anyone else > who's ever worked on a Lucas system on any other British or Italian > car and they will tell you about Lucas quality. Did many Italian cars use Lucas parts? Not the few I've seen. And I've owned and worked on many cars with Lucas electrics. Of course some had problems - but then what electrics system is perfect? Certainly not one Vauxhall I owned with mainly Delco stuff - I've never seen such badly designed distributors ever. > Lucas headlights had a three position switch - dim, flicker, and off. Nice gag - but when I ask for examples I don't get any firm ones. Or at least not from anyone who knows their electrics. Plenty of stories about what their 'mechanic' said, though. Signature*People want trepanners like they want a hole in the head* Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> Maybe Lucas, or RR, did something nicer at that level. Ask anyone else >> who's ever worked on a Lucas system on any other British or Italian >> car and they will tell you about Lucas quality. > > Did many Italian cars use Lucas parts? Not the few I've seen. Alfa Romeo, Fiat. >And I've owned and worked on many cars with Lucas electrics. Of course >some had problems - but then what electrics system is perfect? Certainly >not one Vauxhall I owned with mainly Delco stuff - I've never seen such >badly designed distributors ever. All the Lucas systems I worked on had repeated and frequent problems. I haven't had that issue with American, Japanese, or other Euro cars (and I like British cars, just not their electrical systems). >> Lucas headlights had a three position switch - dim, flicker, and off. > > Nice gag - but when I ask for examples I don't get any firm ones. Or at >least not from anyone who knows their electrics. Plenty of stories about >what their 'mechanic' said, though. See above. > >And I've owned and worked on many cars with Lucas electrics. Of course > >some had problems - but then what electrics system is perfect? Certainly > >not one Vauxhall I owned with mainly Delco stuff - I've never seen such > >badly designed distributors ever. > All the Lucas systems I worked on had repeated and frequent problems. > I haven't had that issue with American, Japanese, or other Euro cars > (and I like British cars, just not their electrical systems). You're still not actually naming those problems. Despite owning dozens of old cars with Lucas electrics I never saw any pattern to failures. Apart from of course poor grounding - but that is down to assembly - not design. Signature*Reality? Is that where the pizza delivery guy comes from? Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>> >And in the old days, the electrical systems on Jags were just bad. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >who's ever worked on a Lucas system on any other British or Italian >car and they will tell you about Lucas quality. Having worked on RR products, I can say that the Lucas electrics in them were not "fine" by any means. A lot better than what was in the MGB, mind you, but not fine. >Lucas headlights had a three position switch - dim, flicker, and off. I'm not sure who thought it was a good idea to have a high current headlight switch and dispense with the relay, but the idea cropped up in a lot of British vehicles. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > >Maybe Lucas, or RR, did something nicer at that level. Ask anyone else > >who's ever worked on a Lucas system on any other British or Italian > >car and they will tell you about Lucas quality. > Having worked on RR products, I can say that the Lucas electrics in them > were not "fine" by any means. A lot better than what was in the MGB, > mind you, but not fine. I've owned two and the electrics were as good as any - considering the complexity of an analogue system. Dunno about later ones. > >Lucas headlights had a three position switch - dim, flicker, and off. > I'm not sure who thought it was a good idea to have a high current > headlight switch and dispense with the relay, but the idea cropped up in > a lot of British vehicles. Are you saying every US car ever used relays for this? Besides, 20 amps or so is hardly much of a task for a switch. Signature*If tennis elbow is painful, imagine suffering with tennis balls * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >> I'm not sure who thought it was a good idea to have a high current >> headlight switch and dispense with the relay, but the idea cropped up in >> a lot of British vehicles. > >Are you saying every US car ever used relays for this? Besides, 20 amps or >so is hardly much of a task for a switch. 20 amps is one heck of a load on a simple rotary or light duty level switch. And I didn't make the original post, but I've never seen an American car without a relay for the headlights (Not that I like them at all :-). > >Are you saying every US car ever used relays for this? Besides, 20 amps > >or so is hardly much of a task for a switch. > 20 amps is one heck of a load on a simple rotary or light duty level > switch. No it's not. You can make manual switches that handle many times that load. In any case I've never known a Lucas main lighting switch to fail on the dozens of old cars I've owned before relay operation became the norm. > And I didn't make the original post, but I've never seen an American > car without a relay for the headlights (Not that I like them at all > :-). Well we would be going back many years if you're talking about when Lucas didn't use relays for this job. Probably pre '80 or so - although earlier designs which didn't have them continued to be made. Signature*Time is fun when you're having flies... Kermit Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >>>>> And in the old days, the electrical systems on Jags were just bad. >>>> No one ever said anything good about Lucas electrics in a car. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > switch and dispense with the relay, but the idea cropped up in a lot of > British vehicles. OMG, sounds like a cost saving move the bean counters absolutely loved. > > I'm not sure who thought it was a good idea to have a high current > > headlight switch and dispense with the relay, but the idea cropped up > > in a lot of British vehicles. > OMG, sounds like a cost saving move the bean counters absolutely loved. With relays you need less heavy duty wire. The switch gear can obviously be lower rated. Complex wiring to the controls takes up less room. I'd not be too sure omitting a relay or two saves any money. Signature*Elephants are the only mammals that can't jump * Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. >A man walks into a car spares shop and asks if they have a hub cap for a >1995 Lada - "sounds like a fair swap" says the chap behind the counter. No, No, No. A man walks into a car spares shop and asks "Can I get a hub cap for my 1995 Lada?" "Sounds like a fair swap," says the chap behind the counter. >>Consider buying an American > > car. I did before I bought my BMW but American cars are not very good. >> Cadillac CTS >> Cadillac CTS-V >> Cadillac DTS >> Chrysler 300 This is the list after cutting FWD crap and SUV's. They're all too big and ungainly, unfortunately. I had high hopes for the new CTS, but what a pig it's turned-out to be. Maybe if I was a big fatass like most Americans, it would be OK. In article <bbb87af8-e1fe-4b8c-8435-4c0ed51f6315@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The big three are losing money, and if we don't give them the support > they need, they are going to go under. So, we should buy GM cars that are made OUTSIDE America, paying foreigners, instead of buying Honda cars that are built by Americans INSIDE America. Hmmmmmm. <bbb87af8-e1fe-4b8c-8435-4c0ed51f6315@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, buydomestic@usa.com wrote: > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23124844/ > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The big three are losing money, and if we don't give them the support > they need, they are going to go under. Isn't that what free enterprise/capitalism is all about, i.e, buyers switch to another company's products is supposed to spur the company losing business to improve its products, pricing, etc.? Sounds as though you want us to reward the Detroit execs for decades of short sighted greed - count me out. >> The big three are losing money, and if we don't give them the support >> they need, they are going to go under. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >you want us to reward the Detroit execs for decades of short sighted >greed - count me out. Well, what worked for decades for them was building junk, and hoping for repe |
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