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Car Forum / Nissan / Nissan Cars / January 2009

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Tornado Fuel Saver Works in 1999 Sentra

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Ed Light - 06 Sep 2008 04:29 GMT
Tried a Tornado Fuel Saver in a 1999 Sentra GXE, 1.6 engine.

It added more power than the air conditioning takes away.

Cost $50.
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CBXXX@webtv.net - 06 Sep 2008 22:48 GMT
Bullshit
Ed Light - 07 Sep 2008 03:40 GMT
> Bullshit

Got your own filter!

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willshak - 07 Sep 2008 17:01 GMT
on 9/5/2008 11:29 PM Ed Light said the following:
> Tried a Tornado Fuel Saver in a 1999 Sentra GXE, 1.6 engine.
>
> It added more power than the air conditioning takes away.
>
> Cost $50.

Tell me how the air that supposedly swirls in the air intake tube
continues to swirl in the throttle body after it squeezes through the
air filter.
At least back in the 50s, the tornado type swirler of that time was
mounted under the carburetor itself where it just had to enter the
manifold and then through the valves. That was another supposed gas
saver that didn't work either.

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Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
in the original Orange County
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

John Henderson - 07 Sep 2008 21:08 GMT
> Tell me how the air that supposedly swirls in the air intake
> tube continues to swirl in the throttle body after it squeezes
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> to enter the manifold and then through the valves. That was
> another supposed gas saver that didn't work either.

I remember that at least one Audi engine design (back in the
70's) had a rifled inlet manifold, creating significant swirl
in the combustion chamber.  This allowed a higher compression
ratio to be used with standard fuel.

John
Ed Light - 07 Sep 2008 21:51 GMT
> Tell me how the air that supposedly swirls in the air intake tube
> continues to swirl in the throttle body after it squeezes through the
> air filter.

The vanes go into the tube between the filter and the engine.

> At least back in the 50s, the tornado type swirler of that time was
> mounted under the carburetor itself where it just had to enter the
> manifold and then through the valves. That was another supposed gas
> saver that didn't work either.

The Tornado I had in my 318 Dodge v8 was inside the filter on top of the
carburetor. That one did give a noticeable difference; I could give it
less gas. Not a massive difference.

This one is amazing, actually. I'm also using Tufoil (a magazine tried
Tufoil in a car on a dyno, before and after, without breaking it in at
all, and gave it a thumbs up). The 1.6 is now peppy. No longer hesitant.

I'm sure results vary with different models of auto.

The agitated air is supposed to more thoroughly atomize the gas, so it
can more completely burn.
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CBXXX@webtv.net - 08 Sep 2008 03:39 GMT
Tufoil is PTFE and Dupont maker of PTFE Tried to NOT sell it to snake
oil salesmen Slick Oil and Microlon prior to "TUFOIL" because DUPONT
says it DOESN"T DO ANYTHING IN AN ENGINE (they ought to know being THEY
MAKE IT).Unfortunately the Supreme court ruled against Dupont saying it
was restraint of trade.At least Dupont tried to shut these phonies down.
gracey - 09 Jan 2009 07:12 GMT
Only fools will believe on those fuel savers. I suggest they do a fue
consumption first.

For 6 months (b4 putting the device) and log it religiously the
install whatever fuel saver they believe in for 6 months, log th
consumption and take it away and again log the consumption for another
months.

See if there's any difference from the 2 6 months without fuel save
and the 6 months with fuel saver. I bet theres nothing

--
grace
Message Origin: TRAVEL.co
codifus - 09 Sep 2008 12:55 GMT
> > Tell me how the air that supposedly swirls in the air intake tube
> > continues to swirl in the throttle body after it squeezes through the
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> s...@uce.gov
> Thanks, robots.

This is what I believe is happening:

The disturbed airflow is temporarily fooling the mass ariflow sensor.
The MAF thinks there's more (or less) air coming in and the CPU
adjusts the fuel maps accordingly. Since the car feels peppier, then
the MAF must think that less air is coming in. Why? Many dynos have
shown that Nissan fuel maps,or even most cars for that matter, are
adjusted so that the fuel mix is slightly rich. In other words a bit
more fuel than air from the ideal stochiometric mixture. This makes
the car slightly less fuel efficient and less powerful, but only
slightly. This slightly rich mix also keeps the car cool and safely
away from the danger of detonation and a lean mixture which can be
very harmful over the long run. The carmaker wants their motor to last
a long time.  The tornado fooled the MAF and the mixture is closer to
ideal, the most efficient and powerful mode for the car.

This "fooling" of the MAF won't last long, however, as the O2
ultmately determines how the fuel maps should be adjusted, and it
adjusts itself slowly. As the CPU watches the amount of O2 in the
exhaust, it will adjust the mixture back to the slightly rich mixture
it had in the 1st place.

I've been thru this several times when I've added modifications to my
cars. I've done pop chargers and cold air intakes. After the change
was made I always noticed an immediate difference, especially in
noise. A couple of days later the noise would die down and the
difference would not be so great. These intakes did increase power,
and the CPU was really confused by the MAF reading initially. As time
went on the car got quieter. In the end there was a difference because
there was definitely more air coming in, but that difference was also
accompanied by noise, and to me the noise increase didn't really
justify the power increase.

Give it a week and your car will be right back to where it was before,
especially since the tornado is not increasing airflow. The CPU will
have accounted for the addition of the tornado's disturbed flow and
you'll be right back at square one.

Things to keep in mind:
That swirl effect. How strong is it really going to be when the air
goes thru vanes into the throttle body, then shifted 90 degrees or so
around in the intake manifold, then interrupted every so often from
the valves closing and opening? You and I both know that Tornadoes
thrive in the plain states. Wide open and un-inhibited.

Also, the air filter box for Nissan's 1.6 (GA16DE) is also the same
one for the 2.0 (SR20DE.) If there really was a significant airflow
restriction in that airbox, would Nissan use the same one in an engine
that is 400cc s larger? Especially on the quite famous SR20DE?

CD
Ed Light - 09 Sep 2008 21:02 GMT
(last part):
> Give it a week and your car will be right back to where it was before,
> especially since the tornado is not increasing airflow. The CPU will
> have accounted for the addition of the tornado's disturbed flow and
> you'll be right back at square one.

codifus,

That's a trip!

I think the Tornado's effect will probably last, but we'll see. It's
stronger than ever after 5 days, also quieter.

The Tornado in the 318 Dodge from 1986 didn't have a fuel mixture
computer to fool, being carbureted, so the Tornado in there really
worked. Unless there was actually some sort of analog computer messing
with the carburetor. Even so, it kept the power increase.

Speaking of cabetooters, back when, there was a device called a Cagle
which would compensate for leaky float valves by cutting back the fuel
pressure at high vacuum. It was powered by the vacuum. It could save
alot of gas, but not on cars with great float valves, which wouldn't
have the going rich problem of the fuel level rising. If I remember it
all right.

Then there was the Ramjet, which went in the PCV line and carbureted the
blowby. You would tune it to the best throttle response.
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C. E. White - 10 Sep 2008 12:30 GMT
So are you the guy that all the scammers go to when they need a
glowing report?

Ed White

> (last part):
>> Give it a week and your car will be right back to where it was
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Then there was the Ramjet, which went in the PCV line and carbureted
> the blowby. You would tune it to the best throttle response.
Ed Light - 10 Sep 2008 22:00 GMT
> So are you the guy that all the scammers go to when they need a glowing
> report?

Haven't you read the whole thread? Do that first.

The Tornado has a 30-day money-back guarantee, I believe. If it sucked
they wouldn't still be in business after many years, or be available at
an auto parts chain store.

There are fuel saving scams out there -- I've encountered some myself.

I'm sharing my experiences, no more, no less.

You will believe, or perish! :-)  I mean, you will analytically read the
thread or pay through the nose for gas, help destroy the environment,
suffer from a sluggish car that wears out fast, and other horrible fates!

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Ed White - 11 Sep 2008 03:40 GMT
>> So are you the guy that all the scammers go to when they need a glowing
>> report?
>
> Haven't you read the whole thread? Do that first.

I have.

> The Tornado has a 30-day money-back guarantee, I believe. If it sucked
> they wouldn't still be in business after many years, or be available at an
> auto parts chain store.

Totally wrong. Many scam products have been on sale for many years and many
are still sold at what I would consider reputable stores. Split Fire Plugs,
Slick 50, etc. Have you tried to return your Tornado? The Tornado web site
states there is a 30 day money back guarantee but they don't include
instruction for returning the device. I imagine you'll have to mail it to
them with the original receipt and wait months to get your money. But you
can try it and see....

> There are fuel saving scams out there -- I've encountered some myself.

And apparently promoting them.

>> I'm sharing my experiences, no more, no less.

I contend the gains you are claiming based on your "experience"  are based
on poor data collection, a modification of driving style, wishful thinking,
a combination of these factors, or just made up.

> You will believe, or perish! :-)  I mean, you will analytically read the
> thread or pay through the nose for gas, help destroy the environment,
> suffer from a sluggish car that wears out fast, and other horrible fates!

In this case believing would lead me to waste $60. The only way that Tornado
can affect the fuel economy of a modern fuel injected engine is by acting as
an intake tract restriction and thereby reducing the maximum air flow into
the engine. This limits the maximum power and therefore the maximum fuel
consumption of the engine. You could achieve the same result by attaching a
block of wood under the accelerator pedal.

If the Tornado really worked as claimed, the company selling it would have
long ago submitted it to the EPA for testing. The EPA has run a program for
decades to test fuel saving devices (see
http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/reports.htm). The reports cover two main
areas, whether the devices effect emissions and whether the devices actually
increase fuel economy. The EPA does not charge for the testing (as long as
you submit preliminary documentation backing up the claims). Any company
making a truly making a revolutionary add on device that actually improved
fuel economy would immediately submit it to the EPA for verification. Can
you imagine the positive press if the EPA backed the Tornado's fuel saving
claims?  You might enjoy reading this particular report -
http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/devices/pb83159939.pdf. This was a test of
the old style under carb "mixer."

Answer me this - All manufacturers selling vehicles in the US have been
struggling to meet the CAFE regulations for years. If a $1 piece of tin
could improve fuel economy by 1% or more, don't you think they would be
installed in all cars? Ford switched to 5W20 oil to gain a few tenths of a
percent in fuel economy........

You are either a fool or a scam artist. I am not sure which. If you truly
believe the Tornado works, then you must think the engineers at all auto
manufacturers are idiots. Lets see - you are right, and thousands of trained
engineers are idiots, or you are wrong. Who should I bet on?

Ed
Ed Light - 11 Sep 2008 04:40 GMT
> You are either a fool or a scam artist. I am not sure which. If you truly
> believe the Tornado works, then you must think the engineers at all auto
> manufacturers are idiots. Lets see - you are right, and thousands of trained
> engineers are idiots, or you are wrong. Who should I bet on?

I know you have convinced yourself of this, but, basically, you are
saying that I am insensitive to my car's performance, and expect me to
accept this. I drove it for a year before the Tornado and know what I'm
experiencing. I'm not going to decide that I'm imagining it just because
you're so convinced.

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C. E. White - 11 Sep 2008 13:18 GMT
>> You are either a fool or a scam artist. I am not sure which. If you
>> truly believe the Tornado works, then you must think the engineers
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> what I'm experiencing. I'm not going to decide that I'm imagining it
> just because you're so convinced.

No, I am saying you are either a scam artist or you have deluded
yourself into believeing something is true that is unreasonable.
People do it everyday. I am confident that if you ran a carefully
controlled "fair" experiment you would discover the Toronado does not
improve fuel economy or performance of modern fuel injected engines.
The old explanation of how "mixers" worked on carburatted engines at
least had a little credibility (very little). But trying to claim that
the "vortex" created in the intake pipe in front of the throttle plate
somehow continues past a mostly closed throttle plate, through the
intake runners and improves the mixing of the fuel at the intake
valves is pure hogwash. Either you have been scammed, or you are
scamming.

The following is from a Popular Mechanics article (
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1802932.html?page=2 )

"VORTEX GENERATORS

"These devices, which are usually installed on the upstream side of
the mass airflow (MAF) sensor, use stationary vanes or, on some
devices, spinning blades to make the inlet air between the air cleaner
and intake manifold whirl around in a mini-tornado. This vortex
supposedly mixes fuel more thoroughly with air, which means the fuel
will, theoretically, burn more completely in the combustion chamber.
Trouble is, there's a lot of intake tract downstream from these
devices designed to maximize a smooth airflow. Turbulence, coupled
with the restricted airflow caused by the device, can only reduce the
amount of air sucked into the manifold. Less air means less
power.Again, we tested two devices. The TornadoFuelSaver is a nicely
made stainless steel contraption, available in an assortment of sizes
to fit most vehicles. We installed it on our truck's intake tract
immediately upstream of the MAF sensor. We purchased the second
device, the Intake Twister, on eBay. It was crudely handmade from
sheet-aluminum flashing and pop rivets. It looked like something we
could make in about 10 minutes from an old soda can. The staff at UTI
was reluctant to install it: The bent sheetmetal vanes looked as if
they might break off and be digested by the engine. The device is
one-size-fits-all, and is simply bent into a curl to insert it into
the intake duct.

"THE DYNO SAYS: Both devices reduced peak horsepower by more than 10
percent. The Intake Twister increased fuel consumption by about 20
percent; the TornadoFuelSaver provided no significant change."

Or how about this (from
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/OnlyinAmerica/story?id=2188905&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312  
):

"The infomercial for the Tornado Fuel Saver says "its fast and easy
installation can save you up to $20, $40, even $60 a month at the gas
pump."

"The company's president, Jay Kim, appears in his own infomercials to
plug the Tornado. Kim says scientific tests, including some done by
ABC affiliates, prove that his product works, but other experts say
those road tests don't mean anything. According to Kim, he's sold
100,000 of these products.

'"People put the Tornado in, they are so happy with the product, they
tell a friend," Kim says. "So I'm very confident that [the] product
works."

"But Consumer Reports disagrees. At its test track in Connecticut, it
did road tests and found the Tornado didn't save gas.

'"During those tests, we splice a fuel meter into the line, run them
through very strict tests, so we really get to know whether these
things work or they don't," says David Champion, director of
automobile testing.

'"We tested it on two cars, [it] made no difference at all."

"But Kim still stands by his product.

'"I think that someone made a mistake," Kim says. The tests that Kim
is referring to, he says, are like "actual real-life, real-on-the-road
testing" that came from the ECOlogic Engine Testing Laboratories.

"But we spoke with ECOlogic, and the man who signed off on the test,
Donel Olson, says he's sorry that it has his signature on it.

"Kim maintains, "Tornado works. That is the bottom line." '

The following text is from the Consumer Reports Web Site:

"TornadoFuelSaver

"The Tornado ($49.95 with shipping) is a similar device made of
stainless steel with thin metal blades. Versions are sold for both
carburated and fuel-injected engines. It is installed in the air inlet
hose between the throttle body and the air filter. This is the same
product we tested for a July 1999 report, when we said it didn't
improve power or gas mileages in two test vehicles.

"We installed the fuel injector type in a Ford Ranger pickup truck and
a Volkswagen New Beetle. We ran our standard acceleration and fuel
economy tests with and without the Tornado installed. The Ranger saw
no improvement in acceleration, while the New Beetle saw slightly
worse performance. Neither vehicle showed an improvement in fuel
economy....."

You'll love this reference -
http://www.kirotv.com/consumer/2220354/detail.html - they actually
measured a 5.3% increase in fuel economy increase for a truck with a
Toronado installed which sounds impressive until they compared it to a
truck with a piece of duct tape installed that got a 6% increase in
fuel conomy. This points out how hard it is for people to evaluate gas
mileage claims. There are so many factors that come into play that
make it difficult for individuals to evaluate these devices.

Other interesting references:

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut10.shtm
http://www.carbibles.com/productreviews_fuel.html#tornado
http://tinyurl.com/649ua6

Ed
Ed Light - 12 Sep 2008 00:08 GMT
> No, I am saying you are either a scam artist or you have deluded
> yourself

Thanks for the insult. You have your own filter.

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C. E. White - 12 Sep 2008 14:04 GMT
>> No, I am saying you are either a scam artist or you have deluded
>> yourself
>
> Thanks for the insult. You have your own filter.

Telling the truth should not be considered an insult. I don't know how
to sugar coat something like this. There is no credible evidence that
supports the idea that a Tornado does anything for a modern fuel
injected engine except possibly restrict performance. There is no
scientific reason to think it could work. There are numerous
references from reputable sources that say it doesn't work. Logically,
if it did, work auto manufacturers would incorporate the concept into
their intake tract designs. The overwhelming evidence says the Tornado
is a scam. Yet you claim it works. I see three possibilities 1)
there is a vast conspiracy involving auto manufacturers, supposedly
responsible journalist, the government, and scientists to hide the
truth about the Tornado for some nefarious reason, 2) you are a scam
artist in some way related to marketing the Tornado, 3) because of
poor data collection techniques, the desire to believe you have not
been scammed, or just chutzpas you have convinced yourself the Tornado
works despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

There is no way I buy the vast conspiracy idea. That leaves me with
the conclusion that you are either a scam artist or you are deluding
yourself. If you are a scam artist, then insults won't bother you. If
you are a true believer and have deluded yourself into believing the
Tornado works, then I suppose it is insulting to have someone point
out your delusion. You should understand this, I truly believe that
the Tornado is a scam and that I am sincerely trying to prevent others
from being scammed. It is too late to save you. You have already
wasted your money. I doubt you could get you money back now, even if
you tried. Maybe I can save one other person from falling victim to
scams like the Tornado. While you may filter out my posts, other will
read them and hopefully look at the evidence before they waste their
money on an obvious scam.

Ed
codifus - 11 Sep 2008 16:06 GMT
> > You are either a fool or a scam artist. I am not sure which. If you truly
> > believe the Tornado works, then you must think the engineers at all auto
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> s...@uce.gov
> Thanks, robots.

Like I said......give it a week and the O2 and MAF will adjust to the
tornado. Net effect- no real increase.
And I do agree that you felt/feel a change, but it's more from
confusing the MAF. It won't last.

CD
Ed Light - 12 Sep 2008 00:10 GMT
> Like I said......give it a week and the O2 and MAF will adjust to the
> tornado. Net effect- no real increase.
> And I do agree that you felt/feel a change, but it's more from
> confusing the MAF. It won't last.

It has been 7 days, and it's peppy as ever. It still surprises me.

Perhaps it won't do that for every vehicle. But this Sentra loves it.

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codifus - 23 Oct 2008 13:19 GMT
> > Like I said......give it a week and the O2 and MAF will adjust to the
> >tornado. Net effect- no real increase.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> s...@uce.gov
> Thanks, robots.

Your tornado has been in there for more than a month. How does it feel
now?

CD
C. E. White - 08 Sep 2008 12:11 GMT
> Tried a Tornado Fuel Saver in a 1999 Sentra GXE, 1.6 engine.
>
> It added more power than the air conditioning takes away.
>
> Cost $50.

My best guess is that you are experiencing the placebo effect.

Ed
CBXXX@webtv.net - 08 Sep 2008 12:43 GMT
Called wishful thinking.
Ed Light - 08 Sep 2008 22:59 GMT
> My best guess is that you are experiencing the placebo effect.

Having been a motorcycle road racer, I really think that I can tell the
difference. But anybody could, with the magnitude of the difference in
my specific 2 vehicles I've tried it in.

I really enjoyed it this morning. Decided to floor it into a curve and
had to back off. Not downshifting for acceleration as much.

Won't know what the road mileage is for awhile since I won't be
travelling until next year. But it's bound to be massive -- the Tufoil
alone gives me 45-52 mpg on the road, not going over 55 mph, depending
on how twisty and hilly it is.

I have tried a gyp or two also. The water injector that broke a valve
comes to mind.
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Striker - 11 Sep 2008 23:04 GMT
The secret is you have to coat it in snake oil.... : )
> Tried a Tornado Fuel Saver in a 1999 Sentra GXE, 1.6 engine.
>
> It added more power than the air conditioning takes away.
>
> Cost $50.
 
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