Car Forum / Nissan / Nissan Cars / January 2009
Tornado Fuel Saver Works in 1999 Sentra
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Ed Light - 06 Sep 2008 04:29 GMT Tried a Tornado Fuel Saver in a 1999 Sentra GXE, 1.6 engine.
It added more power than the air conditioning takes away.
Cost $50.
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CBXXX@webtv.net - 06 Sep 2008 22:48 GMT Bullshit
Ed Light - 07 Sep 2008 03:40 GMT > Bullshit Got your own filter!
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willshak - 07 Sep 2008 17:01 GMT on 9/5/2008 11:29 PM Ed Light said the following:
> Tried a Tornado Fuel Saver in a 1999 Sentra GXE, 1.6 engine. > > It added more power than the air conditioning takes away. > > Cost $50. Tell me how the air that supposedly swirls in the air intake tube continues to swirl in the throttle body after it squeezes through the air filter. At least back in the 50s, the tornado type swirler of that time was mounted under the carburetor itself where it just had to enter the manifold and then through the valves. That was another supposed gas saver that didn't work either.
 Signature Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY in the original Orange County To email, remove the double zeroes after @
John Henderson - 07 Sep 2008 21:08 GMT > Tell me how the air that supposedly swirls in the air intake > tube continues to swirl in the throttle body after it squeezes [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to enter the manifold and then through the valves. That was > another supposed gas saver that didn't work either. I remember that at least one Audi engine design (back in the 70's) had a rifled inlet manifold, creating significant swirl in the combustion chamber. This allowed a higher compression ratio to be used with standard fuel.
John
Ed Light - 07 Sep 2008 21:51 GMT > Tell me how the air that supposedly swirls in the air intake tube > continues to swirl in the throttle body after it squeezes through the > air filter. The vanes go into the tube between the filter and the engine.
> At least back in the 50s, the tornado type swirler of that time was > mounted under the carburetor itself where it just had to enter the > manifold and then through the valves. That was another supposed gas > saver that didn't work either. The Tornado I had in my 318 Dodge v8 was inside the filter on top of the carburetor. That one did give a noticeable difference; I could give it less gas. Not a massive difference.
This one is amazing, actually. I'm also using Tufoil (a magazine tried Tufoil in a car on a dyno, before and after, without breaking it in at all, and gave it a thumbs up). The 1.6 is now peppy. No longer hesitant.
I'm sure results vary with different models of auto.
The agitated air is supposed to more thoroughly atomize the gas, so it can more completely burn.
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CBXXX@webtv.net - 08 Sep 2008 03:39 GMT Tufoil is PTFE and Dupont maker of PTFE Tried to NOT sell it to snake oil salesmen Slick Oil and Microlon prior to "TUFOIL" because DUPONT says it DOESN"T DO ANYTHING IN AN ENGINE (they ought to know being THEY MAKE IT).Unfortunately the Supreme court ruled against Dupont saying it was restraint of trade.At least Dupont tried to shut these phonies down.
gracey - 09 Jan 2009 07:12 GMT Only fools will believe on those fuel savers. I suggest they do a fue consumption first.
For 6 months (b4 putting the device) and log it religiously the install whatever fuel saver they believe in for 6 months, log th consumption and take it away and again log the consumption for another months.
See if there's any difference from the 2 6 months without fuel save and the 6 months with fuel saver. I bet theres nothing
-- grace Message Origin: TRAVEL.co
codifus - 09 Sep 2008 12:55 GMT > > Tell me how the air that supposedly swirls in the air intake tube > > continues to swirl in the throttle body after it squeezes through the [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > s...@uce.gov > Thanks, robots. This is what I believe is happening:
The disturbed airflow is temporarily fooling the mass ariflow sensor. The MAF thinks there's more (or less) air coming in and the CPU adjusts the fuel maps accordingly. Since the car feels peppier, then the MAF must think that less air is coming in. Why? Many dynos have shown that Nissan fuel maps,or even most cars for that matter, are adjusted so that the fuel mix is slightly rich. In other words a bit more fuel than air from the ideal stochiometric mixture. This makes the car slightly less fuel efficient and less powerful, but only slightly. This slightly rich mix also keeps the car cool and safely away from the danger of detonation and a lean mixture which can be very harmful over the long run. The carmaker wants their motor to last a long time. The tornado fooled the MAF and the mixture is closer to ideal, the most efficient and powerful mode for the car.
This "fooling" of the MAF won't last long, however, as the O2 ultmately determines how the fuel maps should be adjusted, and it adjusts itself slowly. As the CPU watches the amount of O2 in the exhaust, it will adjust the mixture back to the slightly rich mixture it had in the 1st place.
I've been thru this several times when I've added modifications to my cars. I've done pop chargers and cold air intakes. After the change was made I always noticed an immediate difference, especially in noise. A couple of days later the noise would die down and the difference would not be so great. These intakes did increase power, and the CPU was really confused by the MAF reading initially. As time went on the car got quieter. In the end there was a difference because there was definitely more air coming in, but that difference was also accompanied by noise, and to me the noise increase didn't really justify the power increase.
Give it a week and your car will be right back to where it was before, especially since the tornado is not increasing airflow. The CPU will have accounted for the addition of the tornado's disturbed flow and you'll be right back at square one.
Things to keep in mind: That swirl effect. How strong is it really going to be when the air goes thru vanes into the throttle body, then shifted 90 degrees or so around in the intake manifold, then interrupted every so often from the valves closing and opening? You and I both know that Tornadoes thrive in the plain states. Wide open and un-inhibited.
Also, the air filter box for Nissan's 1.6 (GA16DE) is also the same one for the 2.0 (SR20DE.) If there really was a significant airflow restriction in that airbox, would Nissan use the same one in an engine that is 400cc s larger? Especially on the quite famous SR20DE?
CD
Ed Light - 09 Sep 2008 21:02 GMT (last part):
> Give it a week and your car will be right back to where it was before, > especially since the tornado is not increasing airflow. The CPU will > have accounted for the addition of the tornado's disturbed flow and > you'll be right back at square one. codifus,
That's a trip!
I think the Tornado's effect will probably last, but we'll see. It's stronger than ever after 5 days, also quieter.
The Tornado in the 318 Dodge from 1986 didn't have a fuel mixture computer to fool, being carbureted, so the Tornado in there really worked. Unless there was actually some sort of analog computer messing with the carburetor. Even so, it kept the power increase.
Speaking of cabetooters, back when, there was a device called a Cagle which would compensate for leaky float valves by cutting back the fuel pressure at high vacuum. It was powered by the vacuum. It could save alot of gas, but not on cars with great float valves, which wouldn't have the going rich problem of the fuel level rising. If I remember it all right.
Then there was the Ramjet, which went in the PCV line and carbureted the blowby. You would tune it to the best throttle response.
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C. E. White - 10 Sep 2008 12:30 GMT So are you the guy that all the scammers go to when they need a glowing report?
Ed White
> (last part): >> Give it a week and your car will be right back to where it was [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Then there was the Ramjet, which went in the PCV line and carbureted > the blowby. You would tune it to the best throttle response. Ed Light - 10 Sep 2008 22:00 GMT > So are you the guy that all the scammers go to when they need a glowing > report? Haven't you read the whole thread? Do that first.
The Tornado has a 30-day money-back guarantee, I believe. If it sucked they wouldn't still be in business after many years, or be available at an auto parts chain store.
There are fuel saving scams out there -- I've encountered some myself.
I'm sharing my experiences, no more, no less.
You will believe, or perish! :-) I mean, you will analytically read the thread or pay through the nose for gas, help destroy the environment, suffer from a sluggish car that wears out fast, and other horrible fates!
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Ed White - 11 Sep 2008 03:40 GMT >> So are you the guy that all the scammers go to when they need a glowing >> report? > > Haven't you read the whole thread? Do that first. I have.
> The Tornado has a 30-day money-back guarantee, I believe. If it sucked > they wouldn't still be in business after many years, or be available at an > auto parts chain store. Totally wrong. Many scam products have been on sale for many years and many are still sold at what I would consider reputable stores. Split Fire Plugs, Slick 50, etc. Have you tried to return your Tornado? The Tornado web site states there is a 30 day money back guarantee but they don't include instruction for returning the device. I imagine you'll have to mail it to them with the original receipt and wait months to get your money. But you can try it and see....
> There are fuel saving scams out there -- I've encountered some myself. And apparently promoting them.
>> I'm sharing my experiences, no more, no less. I contend the gains you are claiming based on your "experience" are based on poor data collection, a modification of driving style, wishful thinking, a combination of these factors, or just made up.
> You will believe, or perish! :-) I mean, you will analytically read the > thread or pay through the nose for gas, help destroy the environment, > suffer from a sluggish car that wears out fast, and other horrible fates! In this case believing would lead me to waste $60. The only way that Tornado can affect the fuel economy of a modern fuel injected engine is by acting as an intake tract restriction and thereby reducing the maximum air flow into the engine. This limits the maximum power and therefore the maximum fuel consumption of the engine. You could achieve the same result by attaching a block of wood under the accelerator pedal.
If the Tornado really worked as claimed, the company selling it would have long ago submitted it to the EPA for testing. The EPA has run a program for decades to test fuel saving devices (see http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/reports.htm). The reports cover two main areas, whether the devices effect emissions and whether the devices actually increase fuel economy. The EPA does not charge for the testing (as long as you submit preliminary documentation backing up the claims). Any company making a truly making a revolutionary add on device that actually improved fuel economy would immediately submit it to the EPA for verification. Can you imagine the positive press if the EPA backed the Tornado's fuel saving claims? You might enjoy reading this particular report - http://www.epa.gov/oms/consumer/devices/pb83159939.pdf. This was a test of the old style under carb "mixer."
Answer me this - All manufacturers selling vehicles in the US have been struggling to meet the CAFE regulations for years. If a $1 piece of tin could improve fuel economy by 1% or more, don't you think they would be installed in all cars? Ford switched to 5W20 oil to gain a few tenths of a percent in fuel economy........
You are either a fool or a scam artist. I am not sure which. If you truly believe the Tornado works, then you must think the engineers at all auto manufacturers are idiots. Lets see - you are right, and thousands of trained engineers are idiots, or you are wrong. Who should I bet on?
Ed
Ed Light - 11 Sep 2008 04:40 GMT > You are either a fool or a scam artist. I am not sure which. If you truly > believe the Tornado works, then you must think the engineers at all auto > manufacturers are idiots. Lets see - you are right, and thousands of trained > engineers are idiots, or you are wrong. Who should I bet on? I know you have convinced yourself of this, but, basically, you are saying that I am insensitive to my car's performance, and expect me to accept this. I drove it for a year before the Tornado and know what I'm experiencing. I'm not going to decide that I'm imagining it just because you're so convinced.
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C. E. White - 11 Sep 2008 13:18 GMT >> You are either a fool or a scam artist. I am not sure which. If you >> truly believe the Tornado works, then you must think the engineers [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > what I'm experiencing. I'm not going to decide that I'm imagining it > just because you're so convinced. No, I am saying you are either a scam artist or you have deluded yourself into believeing something is true that is unreasonable. People do it everyday. I am confident that if you ran a carefully controlled "fair" experiment you would discover the Toronado does not improve fuel economy or performance of modern fuel injected engines. The old explanation of how "mixers" worked on carburatted engines at least had a little credibility (very little). But trying to claim that the "vortex" created in the intake pipe in front of the throttle plate somehow continues past a mostly closed throttle plate, through the intake runners and improves the mixing of the fuel at the intake valves is pure hogwash. Either you have been scammed, or you are scamming.
The following is from a Popular Mechanics article ( http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1802932.html?page=2 )
"VORTEX GENERATORS
"These devices, which are usually installed on the upstream side of the mass airflow (MAF) sensor, use stationary vanes or, on some devices, spinning blades to make the inlet air between the air cleaner and intake manifold whirl around in a mini-tornado. This vortex supposedly mixes fuel more thoroughly with air, which means the fuel will, theoretically, burn more completely in the combustion chamber. Trouble is, there's a lot of intake tract downstream from these devices designed to maximize a smooth airflow. Turbulence, coupled with the restricted airflow caused by the device, can only reduce the amount of air sucked into the manifold. Less air means less power.Again, we tested two devices. The TornadoFuelSaver is a nicely made stainless steel contraption, available in an assortment of sizes to fit most vehicles. We installed it on our truck's intake tract immediately upstream of the MAF sensor. We purchased the second device, the Intake Twister, on eBay. It was crudely handmade from sheet-aluminum flashing and pop rivets. It looked like something we could make in about 10 minutes from an old soda can. The staff at UTI was reluctant to install it: The bent sheetmetal vanes looked as if they might break off and be digested by the engine. The device is one-size-fits-all, and is simply bent into a curl to insert it into the intake duct.
"THE DYNO SAYS: Both devices reduced peak horsepower by more than 10 percent. The Intake Twister increased fuel consumption by about 20 percent; the TornadoFuelSaver provided no significant change."
Or how about this (from http://abcnews.go.com/2020/OnlyinAmerica/story?id=2188905&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312 ):
"The infomercial for the Tornado Fuel Saver says "its fast and easy installation can save you up to $20, $40, even $60 a month at the gas pump."
"The company's president, Jay Kim, appears in his own infomercials to plug the Tornado. Kim says scientific tests, including some done by ABC affiliates, prove that his product works, but other experts say those road tests don't mean anything. According to Kim, he's sold 100,000 of these products.
'"People put the Tornado in, they are so happy with the product, they tell a friend," Kim says. "So I'm very confident that [the] product works."
"But Consumer Reports disagrees. At its test track in Connecticut, it did road tests and found the Tornado didn't save gas.
'"During those tests, we splice a fuel meter into the line, run them through very strict tests, so we really get to know whether these things work or they don't," says David Champion, director of automobile testing.
'"We tested it on two cars, [it] made no difference at all."
"But Kim still stands by his product.
'"I think that someone made a mistake," Kim says. The tests that Kim is referring to, he says, are like "actual real-life, real-on-the-road testing" that came from the ECOlogic Engine Testing Laboratories.
"But we spoke with ECOlogic, and the man who signed off on the test, Donel Olson, says he's sorry that it has his signature on it.
"Kim maintains, "Tornado works. That is the bottom line." '
The following text is from the Consumer Reports Web Site:
"TornadoFuelSaver
"The Tornado ($49.95 with shipping) is a similar device made of stainless steel with thin metal blades. Versions are sold for both carburated and fuel-injected engines. It is installed in the air inlet hose between the throttle body and the air filter. This is the same product we tested for a July 1999 report, when we said it didn't improve power or gas mileages in two test vehicles.
"We installed the fuel injector type in a Ford Ranger pickup truck and a Volkswagen New Beetle. We ran our standard acceleration and fuel economy tests with and without the Tornado installed. The Ranger saw no improvement in acceleration, while the New Beetle saw slightly worse performance. Neither vehicle showed an improvement in fuel economy....."
You'll love this reference - http://www.kirotv.com/consumer/2220354/detail.html - they actually measured a 5.3% increase in fuel economy increase for a truck with a Toronado installed which sounds impressive until they compared it to a truck with a piece of duct tape installed that got a 6% increase in fuel conomy. This points out how hard it is for people to evaluate gas mileage claims. There are so many factors that come into play that make it difficult for individuals to evaluate these devices.
Other interesting references:
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut10.shtm http://www.carbibles.com/productreviews_fuel.html#tornado http://tinyurl.com/649ua6
Ed
Ed Light - 12 Sep 2008 00:08 GMT > No, I am saying you are either a scam artist or you have deluded > yourself Thanks for the insult. You have your own filter.
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C. E. White - 12 Sep 2008 14:04 GMT >> No, I am saying you are either a scam artist or you have deluded >> yourself > > Thanks for the insult. You have your own filter. Telling the truth should not be considered an insult. I don't know how to sugar coat something like this. There is no credible evidence that supports the idea that a Tornado does anything for a modern fuel injected engine except possibly restrict performance. There is no scientific reason to think it could work. There are numerous references from reputable sources that say it doesn't work. Logically, if it did, work auto manufacturers would incorporate the concept into their intake tract designs. The overwhelming evidence says the Tornado is a scam. Yet you claim it works. I see three possibilities 1) there is a vast conspiracy involving auto manufacturers, supposedly responsible journalist, the government, and scientists to hide the truth about the Tornado for some nefarious reason, 2) you are a scam artist in some way related to marketing the Tornado, 3) because of poor data collection techniques, the desire to believe you have not been scammed, or just chutzpas you have convinced yourself the Tornado works despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
There is no way I buy the vast conspiracy idea. That leaves me with the conclusion that you are either a scam artist or you are deluding yourself. If you are a scam artist, then insults won't bother you. If you are a true believer and have deluded yourself into believing the Tornado works, then I suppose it is insulting to have someone point out your delusion. You should understand this, I truly believe that the Tornado is a scam and that I am sincerely trying to prevent others from being scammed. It is too late to save you. You have already wasted your money. I doubt you could get you money back now, even if you tried. Maybe I can save one other person from falling victim to scams like the Tornado. While you may filter out my posts, other will read them and hopefully look at the evidence before they waste their money on an obvious scam.
Ed
codifus - 11 Sep 2008 16:06 GMT > > You are either a fool or a scam artist. I am not sure which. If you truly > > believe the Tornado works, then you must think the engineers at all auto [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > s...@uce.gov > Thanks, robots. Like I said......give it a week and the O2 and MAF will adjust to the tornado. Net effect- no real increase. And I do agree that you felt/feel a change, but it's more from confusing the MAF. It won't last.
CD
Ed Light - 12 Sep 2008 00:10 GMT > Like I said......give it a week and the O2 and MAF will adjust to the > tornado. Net effect- no real increase. > And I do agree that you felt/feel a change, but it's more from > confusing the MAF. It won't last. It has been 7 days, and it's peppy as ever. It still surprises me.
Perhaps it won't do that for every vehicle. But this Sentra loves it.
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codifus - 23 Oct 2008 13:19 GMT > > Like I said......give it a week and the O2 and MAF will adjust to the > >tornado. Net effect- no real increase. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > s...@uce.gov > Thanks, robots. Your tornado has been in there for more than a month. How does it feel now?
CD
C. E. White - 08 Sep 2008 12:11 GMT > Tried a Tornado Fuel Saver in a 1999 Sentra GXE, 1.6 engine. > > It added more power than the air conditioning takes away. > > Cost $50. My best guess is that you are experiencing the placebo effect.
Ed
CBXXX@webtv.net - 08 Sep 2008 12:43 GMT Ed Light - 08 Sep 2008 22:59 GMT > My best guess is that you are experiencing the placebo effect. Having been a motorcycle road racer, I really think that I can tell the difference. But anybody could, with the magnitude of the difference in my specific 2 vehicles I've tried it in.
I really enjoyed it this morning. Decided to floor it into a curve and had to back off. Not downshifting for acceleration as much.
Won't know what the road mileage is for awhile since I won't be travelling until next year. But it's bound to be massive -- the Tufoil alone gives me 45-52 mpg on the road, not going over 55 mph, depending on how twisty and hilly it is.
I have tried a gyp or two also. The water injector that broke a valve comes to mind.
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Striker - 11 Sep 2008 23:04 GMT The secret is you have to coat it in snake oil.... : )
> Tried a Tornado Fuel Saver in a 1999 Sentra GXE, 1.6 engine. > > It added more power than the air conditioning takes away. > > Cost $50.
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