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Car Forum / Oldsmobile Cars / February 2004

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Q-jet idle adj. question...

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Shock - 01 Feb 2004 21:18 GMT
Have seen posts in various places about setting idle mixture on the Rochester
Quadrajet and have noted that any number of ppl talk about lightly bottoming
the idle screws and then turning them out until it runs right, etc... Have
seen many of them mention that they set the screws at anywhere between 1.5
and 3 turns out from bottomed (depending on the carb, application, etc...).
Well, I've had to turn my idle screws anywhere from 7 to 9 full turns from
bottomed in order to get it to idle and run right. Does this mean my carb (a
generic reman'd unit) is the wrong one for my car ('73 Toronado w/455)? Or
could it be that the metering rods are just wrong and could be easily
swapped?
The carb was put on about a year ago and the car hasn't had the same fuel
economy since. Power seems okay though. Rebuilding the carb myself is out of
the question. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

~~Shock~~  
G Larson - 02 Feb 2004 00:51 GMT
First off, a "full turn" is 360 degrees.

Otherwise, dose sound odd to me. Have you tried turning the idle speed
adjuster in to get more air? Spark advance? Choke? It's a delecate
balance between these to get it right.

> Have seen posts in various places about setting idle mixture on the Rochester
> Quadrajet and have noted that any number of ppl talk about lightly bottoming
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> ~~Shock~~  
Shock - 02 Feb 2004 15:16 GMT
> First off, a "full turn" is 360 degrees.
>
> Otherwise, dose sound odd to me. Have you tried turning the idle speed
> adjuster in to get more air? Spark advance? Choke? It's a delecate
> balance between these to get it right.

Thanks for the reply. :)

Yes, I'm using the standard, 360 deg. measurement of a "full turn". LOL
And yes, I've played with idle speed and mixture adjustments. I can get
satisfactory idle that way without the screws being turned out so far but
off-idle performance seems a bit "flat" and my highest stable vacuum reading
at idle is lower. Have always heard that, for best economy/performance, one
should shoot for the highest stable vacuum reading at a given idle speed.
Have gone through the same process with other vehicles with very good
results.
Spark advance is another matter. I believe that the outer ring on my harmonic
balancer has "slipped" or is somehow not in it's original position and is
not, therefore, an accurate indicator of ignition timing. I believe this to
be a possibility for a couple of reasons: 1) when ignition timing is set with
a known-good timing light, cross-referenced with another known-good timing
light, and verified to be set to factory specs according to a Haynes manual,
my 455 Toro can't get out of it's own way and uses a LOT of gas to do what it
does....also is hard to start and backfires every now and then. Have found no
combination of carb adjustments that cures these ills. Can't imagine Olds
wanted it to run that way....
                                                        2)when timing is set by ear and
seat-of-the-pants, it starts, runs, idles, and performs better and uses less
fuel in the process....and if a timing light is used at that point, the
timing marks are barely visible at (or near) the top of the balancer, far
away from the factory installed timing pointer and in the "advanced"
direction.
                                                        3)i've heard that harmonic
balancer rings slipping over time is not unheard of, although I've never seen
it 'til now.
Choke? Have only adjusted that so it'd start and run well when it's cold.
Have re-checked it everytime carb was adjusted, just in case something
changed.

So, watcha think? I'm trying to be methodical and logical here, but I'm
afraid I just don't know much about the Quadrajet carb. Am always looking for
new sources of info though so if you know of some (not found on Google), I'd
be happy to go check 'em out....

~~Shock~~
Steve G - 02 Feb 2004 21:08 GMT
Several things here.
First, on most of the yars that carburators were used after '72, internal
idle orifaces were intentionally undersized so that even with the screws
backed as far out as you can get them without them falling out you will not
have an over rich mixture (turning the screws out richens the mixture at
idle).  It's often a chore to try and get them rich enough to get a decent
idle, especially  if there's any kind of vacuum leak.  Idle mixture,
however, is not a major player in fuel economy.  The range of mixture in the
grand scheme of things generally isn't very significant.
   The single biggest factor in fuel economy and performance is ignition
timing.  This is not limited just to the initial timing setting, the one you
fool with when turning the distributer.  Automatic advance through both the
centrifugal and vacuum advance are equally, if not more important.
   Here's the procedure.  Obtain the full timing/distributer specs.
Connect your known good timing light.  Disconnect (important) the vacuum
advance.  With the vacuum hose off and the idle at or below the correct in
drive idle speed set your timing to spec.  Put the trans in park.  Now,
watching the timing marks with the light open the throttle to above the rpm
indicated that mechanical advance should be all "in".  You should see the
timing mark move smoothly ahead as the speed increases.  You may not be able
to determine the exact amount of advance because you will run out of
markings on the damper.  That's where a high quality light with an advance
feature is helpful.  Once advance is all in you turn the knob on the light
to bring the mark back to the original setting and look at the meter on the
light to see how many degrees ahead it's running.  If you don't have the
means to actually measure advance just make sure it moves smoothly and heads
well off the marks.
   Now let it idle back down.  Check to see if you have idle at the dist
vacuum advance hose at an idle.  Some are designed to have manifold vacuum,
others have vacuum managed through the throttle.  If you have full manifold
vacuum at an idle plug the hose in while watching the timing light.  It
should jump ahead when you plug it in.  If your engine does not have
manifold vacuum at idle raise engine rpm until you have vacuum at the hose
and then plug it in again watching the timing light.  You should see it jump
ahead.    It would also be a good idea to use a hand vacuum pump to test the
diaphram for leaks.
   If after following this procedure you have not uncovered your problem,
the outer ring on the damper may in fact have turned.  Or, you may have
slipped a cog on the timing chain, which would also account for the loss of
power and fuel economy.   If you've ensured that it's not the chain and the
damper has slipped, the best way to time it is on the road.  Take your
wrench with you and with the engine fully warmed up keep advancing the
timing until it starts to ping.  If it starts okay there, just leave it.  If
you have hard starting related to timing (firing against itself
characterized by the crank, abrupt stop, crank, abrupt stop then fires off)
then back it off until it just cranks okay. Carefull here.  Having it fire
against itself can crack the nose on the starter.
   Now that you've eliminated the timing issues you need to set the carb.
With the engine cold the choke should close itself fully once the throttle
is cracked open.  Start the engine.  As soon as it starts the choke break,
the small diaphram on the passenger side, should pull the choke open a
pre-set amount.  If it's not enough the engine will load up when cold.  Too
much and it will stall and hesitate when cold.  If this is okay continue to
let the engine warm.  The choke should come up fairly quickly as the choke
heats.  If it's slow coming off, or has often happens, never comes off you
will have very poor economy and performance.  I believe that model uses warm
air piped into the choke housing through small 5/16 tubes.  Make sure you
can feel suction at the fresh air end of it (the end that plugs into the
carb near the top.  If you don't feel any suction check that the choke cover
is tight and the gasket in place (the round circular plastic choke stat).
If your choke is the type in a well on the intake make sure the exhaust
crossover is not plugged and if equipped with one, that the heat riser valve
on the exhaust manifold is working properly.
   On other check is the thermostatic controls for the air intake on the
air cleaner.  Ensure that the flap in the snorkel is closing when the senser
is cold.  Put ice on it with the engine running to make sure it's closing it
it's already hot.  Make sure the stove on the manifold and the pipe coming
up to the snorkel are intact and in place.
   By now the engine is fully warmed up and choke off long ago.  Start with
the mixture screws out 1 1/2 turns.  Adjust the idle mixture screws out 1/4
of a turn at a time alternating from time to time until the you reach
maximum rpm.  In the old days you would back them out until the rpm started
to drop down after reaching it's peak then you would turn them in 1/4 turn.
Now days you won't see it drop after it's peak.  It will increase and
smoother out then you can turn it out till the cows come home with no
difference.  Leave them at the point that turning no longer changes
anything.  You need a good sensitive tach for this.  Or a good ear.
   Then take two aspirins and call in the morning.
Steve

> > First off, a "full turn" is 360 degrees.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> ~~Shock~~
Shock - 03 Feb 2004 15:00 GMT
> Idle mixture,
> however, is not a major player in fuel economy.  The range of mixture in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> both the centrifugal and vacuum advance are equally, if not more
> important.

Steve G,

Thanks very much for the response.
Ignition timing, eh? Now there's a possibility. See, I've been doing all my
tuning and adjustments based on the assumption that the distributor is good.
That could be my downfall, since the distributor was replaced at the same
time the carb was. By the shop, not me. They said that, during the carb R/R,
they accidently broke a wire on the dist. so they replaced it (at no charge
to me). Shoulda gotten my old parts back.... Anyway, the "new" distributor
was "clocked" wrong (was about 90 degrees off, clockwise, from the original),
not tightened down, the dwell was so far off that the thing barely ran, and
the firing order wasn't right (the shop never did figure out why it kept
fouling out one sparkplug so bad....duh).
Have only replaced the points, cap, and rotor on the replacement dist., but
never checked to be sure it was functioning properly. My bad.
A friend of mine has a HEI distributor out of a high output 403 that he says
I can have. Maybe I'll take him up on it, just to see if it makes a
difference in the fuel economy battle.
Now, I was told once before that generic reman'd Q-jets often have weaker-
than-stock air door springs, causing it to open earlier than normal. It's my
understanding that this brings the secondary metering circuit into play
earlier than it should, thus killing fuel economy with no serious detrimental
effects on performance. Ever heard anything like that? Think I'll be checking
into that, as well as different secondary metering rods.

Thanks again for the detailed reply. I'll be saving it for future reference.

~~Shock~~
Steve G - 03 Feb 2004 23:12 GMT
The air door springs are adjustable and most of what I've heard is that
they're would too tight, not too loose.  If they were slack you would notice
the sound and feel of the secondary's opening earlier which would result in
better performance or a serious bog on heavier than average throttle
application.  Yo'd definately notice some driveability changes, but it
shouldn't seem sluggish.  Even if it had the hesitation from them opening
too soon, after a little bog you should feel good acceleration.
Good idea trying the HEI.  Do the same cheques of the vacuu and mechanical
advances though.
Steve

> > Idle mixture,
> > however, is not a major player in fuel economy.  The range of mixture in
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> ~~Shock~~
Marc_Aurora_2001 - 02 Feb 2004 01:31 GMT
You have to understand that the rebuilder was working with
a very old carb to begin with, so the rebuilding may not
have been good.
 
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