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Car Forum / Peugeot Cars / June 2005306 Hdi engine completely cutting out
I should be grateful if anyone can shed light on the cause and possible cure to the above fault. My 306 is a late model which has experienced this fault, intermittently, about five times over 2 1/2 years. The problem has been referred to two main agents, who were both familiar with the fault but without, apparently, being able to effect a cure. Peugeot, too, must be familiar with this fault through a BBC Watchdog programme, December 2004, regarding the same fault on 206's. The trouble is that without knowing all possible causes, and I think there may be a number of them, and effecting a cure for /all/ of them you just have no idea when it might happen again. Quite simply the engine cuts out completely with complete loss of the electrics, with no warning. As this has, so far, only occurred at one geographical location I feel that this must be RF pick up due to inadequate electrical screening. At this location there is one smallish electricity substation and several domestic satellite aerials which might be the culprit. The accelerator wiring and the accelerator potentiometer has already been replaced because of inadequate screening. Oh, the ECU has been replaced as well, but this was related to performance anomalies, especially during cold running. I am told that on the 206 inadequate earthing of the engine can cause this fault and on the 306 too. But, as I believe RF pick up is at fault here, causing initialisation of the immobiliser, this may be a red herring. I have had problems with RF pick up on the transponder/immobiliser near a local hospital (lots of aerials, etc). I also think that the ECU has something to do with immobilisation. Some of the above may be plain rubbish but I should nonetheless like to know how to cure the problem and would be glad to receive any advice. Above all else, how on earth do you fault find for this type of event? As I use the vehicle for transporting my severely disabled wife I am sure that you will understand my dismay and alarm at this fault. Cheers, Brian > I should be grateful if anyone can shed light on the cause and > possible cure to the above fault. > > Above all else, how on earth do you fault find for this type of event? I also have a very late 306 HDi, and have not, as yet, experienced the fault you describe. The complete electrical failures with the 206 and 307 on BBC Watchdog, was, if I recall correctly, due to the multiplexing going south. The 306 (even the very last ones) don't use multiplexing, so the fault is unrelated. There are a number of ECUs in a 306. I guess you are referring to the injector/engine ECU. You are correct that the immobiliser is connected with this. I am extremely doubtful whether domestic satellite dishes and RF substations would interfere with the car's central-locking. Perhaps your fob battery needs replacing. As I understand it, once the car has started, the immobiliser becomes 'deactivated' until the key is removed from the ignition. I would concede that there is a faulty earth somewhere. As you have eliminated the obvious, I would take the car to a good independent auto electrician to resolve. I wouldn't recommend a Peugeot main dealer for this work (as your car cannot still be under warranty), but it is your money.  SignaturesA > > I should be grateful if anyone can shed light on the cause and > > possible cure to the above fault. > > > > Above all else, how on earth do you fault find for this type of event? > I also have a very late 306 HDi, and have not, as yet, experienced the > fault you describe. > The complete electrical failures with the 206 and 307 on BBC Watchdog, > was, if I recall correctly, due to the multiplexing going south. Yes, but, I am aware that some 206's may have faulty engine earthing which causes a similar fault, which can be fixed by cleaning and re-tightening earthing straps. > The 306 (even the very last ones) don't use multiplexing, so the fault > is unrelated. OK. Just as well. They are far too complicated in any event. I don't think main agents have very much understanding regarding what happens under the bonnet. > There are a number of ECUs in a 306. Please could you say more. I assumed that everything ECU related was in a single module. > I guess you are referring to the injector/engine ECU. I guess you might be right. > You are correct that the immobiliser is connected with this. Well, couldn't the ECU itself produce this fault then? > I am extremely doubtful whether domestic satellite dishes and RF > substations would interfere with the car's central-locking. I am unable to see what else it could be, because, so far, engine cut out only occurs at this location. Unless, unless. This is on a left hand bend where component movement could affect earthing, type of thing, though I can't think what. I dunno, there are lots of left hand bends, but it's always when the engine is cold. > Perhaps your fob battery needs replacing. As I understand it, once the > car has started, the immobiliser becomes 'deactivated' until the key is > removed from the ignition. Well, I have been told that the complete cut out is caused by the immobiliser being reactivated. At least, that was my understanding. But, comment re fob battery noted. > I would concede that there is a faulty earth somewhere. As you have > eliminated the obvious, I would take the car to a good independent auto > electrician to resolve. I wouldn't recommend a Peugeot main dealer for > this work (as your car cannot still be under warranty), but it is your > money. Yes, but good ones are few and far between. It's a long story, but no way do I wish to return to the main agent who bodged the very simplest of warranty work. And I'll never know if the fault has been fixed unless it returns, if you see what I mean. For reasons previously stated it is worrying. Thanks. Cheers, Brian. >> > I should be grateful if anyone can shed light on the cause and >> > possible cure to the above fault. [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > >Cheers, Brian. Don't judged all dealers by the bad experience you have had.I have 100 % understanding of what goes on under the bonnet your comments piss me off .Also we have the technical knowledge diagnostic equipment , oscilloscopes, canaylsers , specific laptops to diagnose work.Even now in block exemption "fred from the shed" hasn't got the stuff we have (inc some far out p-codes) .Any technician let alone a "auto electrician" can diagnose a faulty earth using v-drop ??????.From both your statements its obvious you knowledge is lacking to say the least. "MARK BANKS PEUGEOT MASTER TECHNICIAN via CarKB.com" <forum@CarKB.com> wrote > Don't judged all dealers by the bad experience you have had.I have 100 % > understanding of what goes on under the bonnet your comments piss me off [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > diagnose a faulty earth using v-drop ??????.From both your statements its > obvious you knowledge is lacking to say the least. Young man, I quite agree with you about not all Peugeot dealers being incompetent. Luckily the one I use, Thorp of Alderminster, is good and always has been in my 20+ years of dealing with them. But there are others that are not (and it's not exclusive to Peugeot by any means), in spite of all the kit that you say they have. I'm not sure why this is, but it does illustrate a problem I now have: Peugeots are not a patch on what they were when I started driving them, but the people I get them from are the best I have ever found. Do I look for a better car and risk a rubbish dealer or do I stick with what is now a pretty unremarkable drive and a good garage? You may wonder why I addressed you as I did. In my experience people who claim a 100% understanding of anything are either very young or fools. I prefer to think you are the former ;-) Ron Robinson >"MARK BANKS PEUGEOT MASTER TECHNICIAN via CarKB.com" <forum@CarKB.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Ron Robinson Thank you ron for your comments,I consider myself to have a good understanding of what goes on concerning peugeot vehicles as the name implies im a master technician .In the last master technician of the year competition i finished 5th in THE COUNTRY so draw your own conclusions please .Im happy to see you have stuck with the product ,which unfortunately perhaps isn't as good as it used to be due to customers demands for more gismos on vehicles hence more chance of malfunction (law of averages).Thankyou for also seeing not all peugeot dealers are incompetent ,a lot of people stereotype all peugeot/other dealerships as "the same" when really they are seperate entity's and are merely franchises. As regarding >"what is now a pretty unremarkable drive" < i think peugeots still drive great its just the reliability is poor!!. thankyou........ p.s.( im 31 so i'll consider that young ;-) ) "MARK BANKS PEUGEOT MASTER TECHNICIAN via CarKB.com" <forum@CarKB.com> wrote > Thank you ron for your comments,I consider myself to have a good > understanding of what goes on concerning peugeot vehicles as the name [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > still drive great its just the reliability is poor!!. thankyou........ > p.s.( im 31 so i'll consider that young ;-) ) Mark. Glad you took my post in the spirit it was meant. OK, you're good, but the way Peugeots and their electronics are going I bet you have been caught out once or twice ;-). I think a certain amount of the problem with the electronics is that it is a new technology both to the makers and those who have to work on it. It probably worked very well in pre-production form - almost hand-made in limited quantities, but once you start churning out thousands of the things, that's a very different matter. IMHO the problem with Peugeots nowadays is not that the customers demand the gismos, it's that the makers are having to fit them to distinguish their product from all the others which are being built to specifications originating in the market research department. There was a time when (with a minor exception or two) Peugeot ride and handling was way ahead of any other quantity produced car. To my surprise and delight this survived the introduction of front wheel drive and lasted through to the 405 and early 306 (well the XT anyway). A few years ago I drove a V6 406 coupe and was really disappointed because although it did most of the things I wanted it to do, it did it in such a grudging way that it took all the joy out of it. Before that one has always had the impression that Peugeots liked being driven and if they recognised a similar feeling in the driver they would reward it. But with the 406 I got the feeling that the guy in their engineering department who enjoyed driving had retired. I found out later that I was right. Ron Robinson > There was a time when (with a minor > exception or two) Peugeot ride and handling was way ahead of any other > quantity produced car. To my surprise and delight this survived the > introduction of front wheel drive and lasted through to the 405 and > early 306 (well the XT anyway). IMHO, all 306s have excellent ride and handling: all 3 phases. The 307 seems to be a completely different car, for a less discerning driver (more concerned with shopping and kids). Not sure my next car will be a Peugeot though. SignaturesA In article <6a289f56ecfc4a60b01150f796ef5c1e@CarKB.com>, MARK BANKS PEUGEOT MASTER TECHNICIAN via CarKB.com <forum@CarKB.com> wrote: Mark. You are shouting!! > >> > I should be grateful if anyone can shed light on the cause and > >> > possible cure to the above fault. > >> > > >> > Above all else, how on earth do you fault find for this type of > >> > event? > >Yes, but good ones are few and far between. It's a long story, but no > >way do I wish to return to the main agent who bodged the very simplest > >of warranty work. And I'll never know if the fault has been fixed > >unless it returns, if you see what I mean. For reasons previously > >stated it is worrying. > Don't judged all dealers by the bad experience you have had.I have 100 % > understanding of what goes on under the bonnet your comments piss me off I speak as I find, mate. > .Also we have the technical knowledge diagnostic equipment , > oscilloscopes, canaylsers , specific laptops to diagnose work.Even now > in block exemption "fred from the shed" hasn't got the stuff we have > (inc some far out p-codes) . I'm not impressed. > Any technician let alone a "auto electrician" can diagnose a faulty > earth using v-drop ??????. So? Clearly the two dealers I dealt with did nothing of the kind. They most certainly failed to find a cure or realise how potentially dangerous the fault is. > From both your statements its obvious you knowledge is lacking to say > the least. No, I don't, and that's why I was asking for help. Your reply says a very great deal about you and nothing about solving a very worrying problem. I, however, am, permanently, totally knackered looking after a very sick wife. How about actually trying to be helpful. In any event I think the problem is RFI related not earthing. I understand that portable telephone transmissions are a known culprit, which is astonishing. It is also clear to me that, in spite of what you say, that there are faults with the 306 ECU causing spurious engine fault codes that Master Technicians have no idea how to resolve. All they do is clear the fault code, and two main dealer's Master Technicians have admitted as much to me. I've had an engine fault code "No Fault". That is just really crap engineering. (Generally speaking, false and spurious fault codes on industrial plant can lead to very serious commercial loss or injury. I know through experience. I've seen it happen) Master Technicians have also told me that they are aware of other 306's showing exactly the same fault. One said that driving a particular vehicle past the Naval aerial arrays at Portsmouth (I think) caused the same vehicle to cut out, every time, quite predictably. RFI is a known problem for the 306 as also are voltage spikes in the electrical system, as I am sure you are aware. Master Technicians were unable to assure me that adequate and complete screening had been fitted to all 306's to cure known RFI problems. In this regard my own 306 immobiliser/transponder(?) has failed to work, through RFI, which Master Technicians were unable to cure, and showed little interest in. One was far from surprised and actually found it to be amusing. Perhaps you would care to comment. It is not difficult to imagine a scenario, the engine cutting out in high speed driving conditions, overtaking for instance, where someone is going to end up very, permanently, dead. In many, many years driving I have never ever experienced, nor heard of, engines cutting out, dead, in this way. It's, fundamentally, crap engineering. Brian >In article <6a289f56ecfc4a60b01150f796ef5c1e@CarKB.com>, > MARK BANKS PEUGEOT MASTER TECHNICIAN via CarKB.com <forum@CarKB.com> [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] >engines cutting out, dead, in this way. It's, fundamentally, crap >engineering. First of all sorry to hear the predicament you are in .If your certain its a screening problem ... put screened wires in ??? we have similar on accerator pedal sensor coherence problems ,and by fitting THE CORRECT SCREENED WIRES AND EARTHING IT PROPERLY (and yes i know i'm shouting) it cures it .But RFI causing a vehicle to cut out is very rare , personally ive known it cause a few central locking problems and thats it.If this m.t had a known problem of a vehicle cutting out going past a naval base first of all you have got to screen all of the relevant wires if this still happens ( which in my opinion it shouldn't )what the hell do you expect him to do ?re-design the electrical structure of the vehicle!!???.you comment's about voltage spikes and RFI incents prone to 306's is utter bollocks ,For rfi ive known it on 307 ,206 as well ,and voltage spikes.. yes can be due to crap sagem coils breaking down but also can be due to double relays etc.. breaking down failing too due to back e.m.f .Also your comment>>>Master Technicians have admitted as much >to me. I've had an engine fault code "No Fault". That is just really crap >engineering.<<< how is it? ,if a fault happens too fast it will cause a problem but won't always store a fault code (this then splits the good master techs from the sh.t ones like the ones you perhaps have been dealing with) and by just clearing intermittents whats this going to do ???? (i'll leave that one to your capable mind to figure out!) it happens on a number of vehicles even on new mux ones with quicker processors ,And before you say not just peugeot.This is perhaps a dangerous fault but with it happening>>My 306 is a late model which has experienced this fault, intermittently, about five times over 2 1/2 years. <<< (about once every half a year say just as a example) what chance have the poor blokes got?. > >Mark. You are shouting!! > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > > >I'm not impressed. I would expect you to have this equipment at the very least and you can only ever be as good as what Peugeot are prepared to tell you. For commercial reasons they will keep a very great deal of technical information back. My local "fred from the shed", now retired, was the tops, and was always bemoaning the fact that much of his work was putting right work that main agents had screwed up, including my Peugeot 309, where the main agent had caused £100's worth of damage. Sorry, your comments are badly misplaced. > >> Any technician let alone a "auto electrician" can diagnose a faulty > >> earth using v-drop ??????. Absolutely. I would expect no less. > >So? Clearly the two dealers I dealt with did nothing of the kind. They > >most certainly failed to find a cure or realise how potentially [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > > First of all sorry to hear the predicament you are in . The predicament has been exacerbated by a main agent who was quite prepared to faff about for 2 1/2 years during the warranty period and tell me as little as possible about the nature of the faults (that's my perception, anyway). It made it quite impossible for me to pursue a resolution to faults of any kind. I was not in a position to do anything during the warranty period myself (I've been down that route before and come unstuck). Peugeot themselves made a complete dog's breakfast of extending the warranty and so denied me a decent resolution this difficulty. > If your > certain its a screening problem ... put screened wires in ??? Easily said, but where might the RFI problem/s be which would create these problem/s. There's a lot of wiring in there. The main agent had reached the point of intending to completely replace the engine wiring loom. Why? Peugeot HQ stopped them. Why? > we have > similar on accerator pedal sensor coherence problems ,and by fitting THE > CORRECT SCREENED WIRES AND EARTHING IT PROPERLY (and yes i know i'm > shouting) it cures it . Yes, this has been done, but cures only one fault, not necessarily /all/ faults. > But RFI causing a vehicle to cut out is very rare > , personally ive known it cause a few central locking problems and thats [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > hell do you expect him to do ?re-design the electrical structure of the > vehicle!!???. I pass. I think that there may well be a design fault. Certainly, I'm of the opinion that the ECU firmware has bugs in it which could well cause spurious fault codes. And I do expect Peugeot to do something. One fault is potentially a killer. > you comment's about voltage spikes and RFI incents prone to > 306's is utter bollocks , How so? Spikes in electrical systems are very very common and are lethal to digital systems. Please justify your comment. RFI incidents in 306's - I've got them! Other people have too! > For rfi ive known it on 307 ,206 as well ,and voltage spikes.. yes can > be due to crap sagem coils breaking down but also can be due to double > relays etc.. breaking down failing too due to back e.m.f . Well, you've just well and truly lost me. You seem to be completely contradicting what you've said previously. > Also your > comment>>>Master Technicians have admitted as much [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >been dealing with) and by just clearing intermittents whats this going > >to do ???? > > At the very least, it leaves the owner in the position of having repeatedly to take the vehicle to the main agent and get them to clear the fault code, which is really irritating. At the worst, and this is the salient bit, the owner starts to ignore /all/ fault codes because they mistrust the vehicle's fault system, and may end up with serious damage. That's why it's crap engineering. I've seen it happen on very large plant worth £1,000,000's. Equally, an intermittent RFI problem such as the one I've got may be safety related and the inability to find and rectify the fault, for whatever reason, may ultimately lead to loss of life. > > (i'll leave that one to your capable mind to figure > >out!) it happens on a number of vehicles even on new mux ones with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > about five times over 2 1/2 years. <<< (about once every half a year say > just as a example) what chance have the poor blokes got?. Well, you seem to be saying that you too are in a similar position to any other Master Technicians who just clear fault codes, where they appear very intermittently. >> >Mark. You are shouting!! >> > [quoted text clipped - 108 lines] >other Master Technicians who just clear fault codes, where they appear >very intermittently. Well, you seem to be saying that you too are in a similar position to any >other Master Technicians who just clear fault codes, where they appear >very intermittently. Am i ? read the post again!!! the best thing to do is take it to a good dealer i.e goodfellows garage walsall west mids where myself or graham will look at it AND fix it for you !! ,put your money where your mouth is !!! > Well, you seem to be saying that you too are in a similar position to any > other Master Technicians who just clear fault codes, where they appear > very intermittently. > > Am i ? read the post again!!! Well, that's the way it reads. 8-) > > the best thing to do > >is take it to a good dealer i.e goodfellows garage walsall west mids > >where myself or graham will look at it AND fix it for you !! ,put your > >money where your mouth is !!! I hear what you say, thanks. Please note that I already put my money where my mouth is when I originally bought the whatsit thing. 8-) |
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