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Car Forum / Peugeot Cars / August 2005406 Running unevenly
I have a Peugeot 406 coupe 2.0 litre. Recently I have been driving it on the motorway at around 60-70 MPH and the car will intermittently "kick" or "jolt" as if it loses power for a split second. It will then continue relatively smoothly and the problem may happen again every few minutes. On one occassion it the engine has stalled when I have come to a set of traffic lights, on another occassion the orange engine management light has illuminated. I have also had a situation where the car 'splutters' i.e I put my foot on the accelerator and it barely responds and then power eventually is produced. Other reports of the same problem indicate either MAP sensors or spark plugs. I assume an error would be reported by the engine management system if it was hooked up to a diagnostic computer but I am hesitant about being taken for a ride at a Peugeot dealer. Can anyone assist ? > I have a Peugeot 406 coupe 2.0 litre. Recently I have been driving it > on the motorway at around 60-70 MPH and the car will intermittently [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Can anyone assist ? Sounds like MAP sensor to me. Firstly, check ALL the pipework for leaks - I had a split in the vacuum pipe to my MAP sensor, and it caused similar issues. If that doesn't sort it, then replace the sensor - they aren't particularly expensive. No idea where it is on yours - mine was a 2.0 8v >> I have a Peugeot 406 coupe 2.0 litre. Recently I have been driving it >> on the motorway at around 60-70 MPH and the car will intermittently [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >particularly expensive. >No idea where it is on yours - mine was a 2.0 8v or it might be just as simple as a clogged up fuel filter.... >>> I have a Peugeot 406 coupe 2.0 litre. Recently I have been driving >>> it on the motorway at around 60-70 MPH and the car will [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > or it might be just as simple as a clogged up fuel filter.... Surely that would never happen though, unless the car has never been serviced ? >>>> I have a Peugeot 406 coupe 2.0 litre. Recently I have been driving >>>> it on the motorway at around 60-70 MPH and the car will [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >Surely that would never happen though, unless the car has never been >serviced ? or you have contaminated the fuel tank in east afganistan with a diesel/chemical waste substance..... >>>>> I have a Peugeot 406 coupe 2.0 litre. Recently I have been driving >>>>> it on the motorway at around 60-70 MPH and the car will [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > or you have contaminated the fuel tank in east afganistan with a > diesel/chemical waste substance..... LOL ! Thanks for all your comments. I am getting the car looked at on 30 August as that is the ealiest an "electrician" in the NON-PEUGEOT garage I take it to is available. I will keep people informed.In the meantime, the problem still persists. A possible problem will be whether your garage can read the system. But I suppose that the industry may have addressed this - the number of firms making management systems cannot be great - I think Peugeot use a Bosch system. No doubt other manufacturers do too. Also does anyone know about the capacity of the system to store fault reports? >A possible problem will be whether your garage can read the system. But >I suppose that the industry may have addressed this - the number of >firms making management systems cannot be great - I think Peugeot use a >Bosch system. No doubt other manufacturers do too. bosch and sagem, and both work with OBD2 codes, get a laptop ( and interface) and you might find the general codes, get a diag 2000 and you find em all, since some are proprietary pug codes >Also does anyone know about the capacity of the system to store fault >reports? OBD2 consists of four digit number codes, if stored in the most inefficient way ( 8 bits verses 3 per code) one could store 8000 codes in as little a 8 Kb memory. the Bosch systems based on the siemens SAB 80C537 family have 64Kb flash memory in them which is partly used for the software image. typical the image would be something like 32Kb, one would have the possibility to store 32000 codes. however codes alone don't say much, driving speed, oil pressure, engine rpm, etc has to be stored as well along with the obd code. perhaps GT has a more conclusive answer to it Grrzz Marc Hi, > perhaps GT has a more conclusive answer to it Not about the hardware involved as I guess you said it all, and far beyond my knowledge about ECUs chips & capabilities (don't lie, you're also an electronic engineer, isn't it ?). > the Bosch systems based on the siemens SAB 80C537 family have 64Kb Damn, yet another i8080 compatible ;-) BTW, sure it's a Siemens and not an Infineon ? > possibility to store 32000 codes. however codes alone don't say much, > driving speed, oil pressure, engine rpm, etc has to be stored as well > along with the obd code. That's what is called a frozen frame, and absolutely necessary for diagnostics. The OBD-2 protocol (sometimes called EOBD) was mainly used on US specs (see SAE), works with 5 protocols which depends on the car manufacturer (grrrr). It involves the PWM and VPWM protocols (for example Ford & GM), ISO9141-2 (mostly European & Asian manufacturers) and KWP2000 (derivated from ISO9141-2). The fifth protocol is CAN, which comes step by step into diag systems. The codes are transmitted into the EOBD plug (defined into SAE-J1962 IIRC, damn US$45 to get the connector's specs) following the ASCII codes. Good. > OBD2 consists of four digit number codes, if stored in the most > inefficient way ( 8 bits verses 3 per code) one could store 8000 codes > in as little a 8 Kb memory. Not sure. According to the documents I have here, the format of an error code following EOBD is 5 bytes long, and made like this : <Type><SAE><E_type><E_code>, where <Type> is the type of error ([P]owertrain, [B]ody [C]hassis or U (network)), <SAE> equals 0 if defined by SAE* (standard code, you can find lists all along the Web), 1 or 2 for manufacturer code which complies with SAE directives, 3 for future use, or 8 if defined by the manufacturer (less fun), <E_type> is the error type, from 1 to 8, <E_code> is the error code. * Not only SAE, also ISO 15031-6. The good point is the presence of 8 kinds of informations you'll be able to see with the diag interface : - 01 actual data - 02 frozen frames - 03 error codes - 04 erase stored errors - 05 Lambda probes self check status - 06 Other systems self check status which are not constantly monitored - 07 Constantly-monitored systems self check status - 08 Special control mode - 09 Vehicle information (serial number (VIN), software version,...). So you'll be able to source some errors (not all) thru the diag interface using a (laptop)PC, interface and software. There is an interresting article about this in this summer's french edition of Elektor (perhaps Elektuur in NL). I guess it's possible to see what's happening on such a fail, considering it seems to be EFI / ignition related, so should be read by a non-Pug module. The engine management light proves there's a fail which has been detected, so at least a frozen frame must be present. Here ends my opinions about the diag system, and if there's some luck to get the error code. I tried to be as complete as possible, and I guess it is easy to understand. HTH, G.T g.t6@worldonline.fr 205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : www.205d.com >Hi, > >> perhaps GT has a more conclusive answer to it >Not about the hardware involved as I guess you said it all, and far beyond >my knowledge about ECUs chips & capabilities (don't lie, you're also an >electronic engineer, isn't it ?). uhh uhmm an audio engineer .... does that count? >> the Bosch systems based on the siemens SAB 80C537 family have 64Kb >Damn, yet another i8080 compatible ;-) BTW, sure it's a Siemens and not an >Infineon ? nope it had the same damn name as my cell phone, siemens..... btw it was in a volvo V series, cooked, i interchanged it for a friend of mine who had his car sitting on the driveway as the volvo dealer was not able to pick it up i opened the ECU and came across very familiar smell, that one from blown capacitors in a power amp. i changed the capacitors as they where blown but no luck there and for the rest the thing is all SMD three layer so no chance in hell repairing it. It was expensive! hell 700 euros for a computer that has little more capabilities than a casiofx4000p (the one we had at school you remember) >> possibility to store 32000 codes. however codes alone don't say much, >> driving speed, oil pressure, engine rpm, etc has to be stored as well >> along with the obd code. >That's what is called a frozen frame, and absolutely necessary for >diagnostics. that was the very term i was looking for >The OBD-2 protocol (sometimes called EOBD) was mainly used on US specs (see >SAE), works with 5 protocols which depends on the car manufacturer (grrrr). [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >The codes are transmitted into the EOBD plug (defined into SAE-J1962 IIRC, >damn US$45 to get the connector's specs) following the ASCII codes. Good. you can get a complete connector for that price!! this of any help? http://obddiagnostics.com/DataSheet.pdf its also where one could obtain an interface, and some free software to read out the codes >> OBD2 consists of four digit number codes, if stored in the most >> inefficient way ( 8 bits verses 3 per code) one could store 8000 codes [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >about this in this summer's french edition of Elektor (perhaps Elektuur in >NL). yup Elektuur, i don't have it but a drinking buddy still reads it, got some nice articles from time to time. not sure if the items synchronise with the french edition. >I guess it's possible to see what's happening on such a fail, considering it >seems to be EFI / ignition related, so should be read by a non-Pug module. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the error code. I tried to be as complete as possible, and I guess it is >easy to understand. hope you get some better wether in Nievre ( that is the region your right?) amsterdam is al damn day rain... cheers Marc >HTH, >G.T >g.t6@worldonline.fr >205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : www.205d.com Hi, > >my knowledge about ECUs chips & capabilities (don't lie, you're also an > >electronic engineer, isn't it ?). > uhh uhmm an audio engineer .... does that count? Errrr.... No. Of course not, but according to the description you gave about these µCs you cannot hide you have some knowledge about this kind of stuff :-) > >> the Bosch systems based on the siemens SAB 80C537 family have 64Kb > >Damn, yet another i8080 compatible ;-) BTW, sure it's a Siemens and not an > >Infineon ? > nope it had the same damn name as my cell phone, siemens..... I just ask it 'cause they turned their semiconductor division into an independant company one or two years ago. > i opened the ECU and came across very familiar smell, that one from > blown capacitors in a power amp. i changed the capacitors as they I guess we both know this smell - not a good sign :-/ > where blown but no luck there and for the rest the thing is all SMD > three layer so no chance in hell repairing it. SMDs are brilliant for space saving and fast transient / noise filtering, but a nightmare to unsolder / resolder properly. I once built an SMD-based board (not my choice), kind of prototype... Never ever :-) > It was expensive! hell 700 euros for a computer that has little more > capabilities than a casiofx4000p (the one we had at school you > remember) ECUs are so expensive I sometimes wonder if they're made of gold. And, no, I can't remember the FX4000 as I'm a bit too young (but I saw some 9600's instead, and had to cope with a Graph25 during 4 years. Never ever, next time I'll go for a TI or a HP). > >The codes are transmitted into the EOBD plug (defined into SAE-J1962 IIRC, > >damn US$45 to get the connector's specs) following the ASCII codes. Good. > you can get a complete connector for that price!! Sure. I still haven't understood why these guys (I could write the same about the french standards institude, the AFNOR) ask to pay so much to get some specs. > this of any help? > http://obddiagnostics.com/DataSheet.pdf > its also where one could obtain an interface, and some free software > to read out the codes Not really as I already collected so much similar stuff when I was looking for some documents about EOBD. Thanks anyway. > >using a (laptop)PC, interface and software. There is an interresting article > >about this in this summer's french edition of Elektor (perhaps Elektuur in > >NL). > yup Elektuur, i don't have it but a drinking buddy still reads it, got > some nice articles from time to time. > not sure if the items synchronise with the french edition. Neither do I, but I guess this article has been or will be published soon into Elektuur. BTW, have you seen the valve amp based on EL-156 ? :-) > hope you get some better wether in Nievre ( that is the region your > right?) amsterdam is al damn day rain... Almost my area, indeed I'm just 2km away from northern Nièvre. Well, not really a great weather these days. Would be wonderful if it was on April or May, not on August, 15th. Regards, G.T g.t6@worldonline.fr 205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : www.205d.com >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >these µCs you cannot hide you have some knowledge about this kind of stuff >:-) I was originally trained as a navigator ( ships unfortunately not rally cars) and later on i became a environmental engineer (Ba) but given the lack of adventure i picked up the job i did to earn my way through school and got back in to audio engineering and design. also worked at a instrumental amplification manufacturer, making PCB layouts and proto's from rough design ( design engineer was a bit of an "artist") i know some of electronics out of interest and necessity, when i come across an item i don't know ( like most of these 8080 compatible stuff) there is mostly a white paper on it and i take it from there >> >> the Bosch systems based on the siemens SAB 80C537 family have 64Kb >> >Damn, yet another i8080 compatible ;-) BTW, sure it's a Siemens and not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I just ask it 'cause they turned their semiconductor division into an >independant company one or two years ago. aha there you have it, the car is three years old, but i guess they wont re badge the siemens stock for infinion >> i opened the ECU and came across very familiar smell, that one from >> blown capacitors in a power amp. i changed the capacitors as they [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >instead, and had to cope with a Graph25 during 4 years. Never ever, next >time I'll go for a TI or a HP). aha the 9600 was the one we could not afford back then..... >> >The codes are transmitted into the EOBD plug (defined into SAE-J1962 >IIRC, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >Neither do I, but I guess this article has been or will be published soon >into Elektuur. BTW, have you seen the valve amp based on EL-156 ? :-) yup it was in the march issue, unfortunately original telefunken tubes are not manufactured any more so you have to make do with its chinese "equivalent" i saw some original telefunken EL-156 on ebay for 500 euro a pair...... looked it up and yes they had the obd article in the July /august number, they even sell a complete analyze kit for 74 euro's and a cable for 39 euro's put your laptop on get some software and ruin your car! ;) >> hope you get some better wether in Nievre ( that is the region your >> right?) amsterdam is al damn day rain... >Almost my area, indeed I'm just 2km away from northern Nièvre. >Well, not really a great weather these days. Would be wonderful if it was on >April or May, not on August, 15th. weather is ...finally.... clearing up here, i heard it has been quite bad in mid France, my mom had some bad roof damage after a severe thunder and rainstorm. all hell has broken loose here in amsterdam as i just learn two trains have been derailed on the west side of amsterdam central station, i'm trying to get some live footage from the helicopter via a PI6alk repeater. btw i live just east from central station cheers Marc >Regards, >G.T >g.t6@worldonline.fr >205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : www.205d.com Hi, > worked at a instrumental amplification manufacturer, making PCB > layouts and proto's from rough design ( design engineer was a bit of > an "artist") A design engineer is still a kind of an artist, but his work has a use and he has to cope with some specs :-) > across an item i don't know ( like most of these 8080 compatible > stuff) there is mostly a white paper on it and i take it from there Yeah, they're all a bit specific, and without the datasheet you'd lose your mind if you ever tried to know them all... Pretty amazing how many 8080-compatible µP there are down here, esp. when you state there are no Moto's 68xx-compatible (or so few it doesn't matter). > >I just ask it 'cause they turned their semiconductor division into an > >independant company one or two years ago. > aha there you have it, the car is three years old, but i guess they > wont re badge the siemens stock for infinion Sure, but the originally Siemens-badged products could well turn into Infineon with stock rotations. > >into Elektuur. BTW, have you seen the valve amp based on EL-156 ? :-) > yup it was in the march issue, unfortunately original telefunken > tubes are not manufactured any more so you have to make do with its > chinese "equivalent" i saw some original telefunken EL-156 on ebay for > 500 euro a pair...... 500EUR for a pair of EL-156 seems expensive to me :-) One thing I never understood is how a valve amp works*. Keep in mind I am not specialized into audio systems, and of course having passed the exam in 2003 involves you don't see valve systems. You can tell I'm a kind of silicon-addict. * Instead I've of course heard some nice Marshall valve amps (and I even was a bit surprised of the sound provided by a ValveState). > looked it up and yes they had the obd article in the July /august > number, they even sell a complete analyze kit for 74 euro's and a > cable for 39 euro's put your laptop on get some software and ruin your > car! ;) I don't have the prices for France, moreover I'm a bit lazy to look for them on the Web, but it doesn't seem too expensive to me. The ass'y seems pretty easy to me, as there are no SMD's. The software should be found as some shareware or freeware, and for the OP I guess any of them should do the trick, indeed. > >> hope you get some better wether in Nievre ( that is the region your > >> right?) amsterdam is al damn day rain... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > bad in mid France, my mom had some bad roof damage after a severe > thunder and rainstorm. True, here it keeps cloudy since yesterday. We also had some severe storms here, but with no big damage. It was pretty violent 20km away (Coulanges-la-Vineuse), where some mobilhomes rolled over. One of them even flew 100m before stopping into a tree, 3m above the floor ! Anyway Burgundy has a feature of violent thunder, possibly because of the proximity of Morvan, and I'm pretty sure it was pretty violent in Autun (although I had no specific information about this area). > all hell has broken loose here in amsterdam as i just learn two trains > have been derailed on the west side of amsterdam central station, > i'm trying to get some live footage from the helicopter via a PI6alk > repeater. Damn that's a good week for journalists after the airplaine being crashed yesterday in Greece (I've heard it was due to a pressurization fail problem). Well, if it was near the station they were not running fast, so we could expect there are not many people badly injured. > btw i live just east from central station It doesn't make a difference to me, as I never went to Amsterdam :-) Regards,  SignatureG.T g.t6@worldonline.fr 205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : www.205d.com >Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >2003 involves you don't see valve systems. You can tell I'm a kind of >silicon-addict. its a fairly simple triode based design and for its linearity it has no need for a feedback cirquit,so that keeps it even more simple. there is a good deal of info on the web if you survey for triode and pentode amplifiers, i'm sure you'll find something of your interest. i don't use valve amps in my work, as they don't take the abuse very well, and getting an output staged up to 2 KW is an art in itself when using valves >* Instead I've of course heard some nice Marshall valve amps (and I even was >a bit surprised of the sound provided by a ValveState). arg, i hate marshals, as their keepers always turn them up big time and ruin my mix... >> looked it up and yes they had the obd article in the July /august >> number, they even sell a complete analyze kit for 74 euro's and a [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >problem). Well, if it was near the station they were not running fast, so we >could expect there are not many people badly injured. fortunately no people injured, but it is the third train that derails in that particular stretch in four months time...... >> btw i live just east from central station >It doesn't make a difference to me, as I never went to Amsterdam :-) nice enough city but don't bring your car.... cheers Marc >Regards, Hi, > >2003 involves you don't see valve systems. You can tell I'm a kind of > >silicon-addict. > its a fairly simple triode based design and for its linearity it has > no need for a feedback cirquit,so that keeps it even more simple. I have to add I didn't spent many time on trying to understand how it works, as I'm not really interested about the valve amps. > there is a good deal of info on the web if you survey for triode and > pentode amplifiers, i'm sure you'll find something of your interest. Possibly. I should have a look, but valves are more exotic than useful for the amplifiers I need :-) > i don't use valve amps in my work, as they don't take the abuse very > well, and getting an output staged up to 2 KW is an art in itself when > using valves True. Plus the need of high voltage, plus the fact they usually have poor THD results due to the harmonics generation / reinjection. I'm convinced there's a way to get far better results with solid-state, silicon-based amplifiers. For low power, I guess I'd be tempted by some monolithic integrated amps, like the NS's LM3886T, which is able of 38W avg output through 8ohms with a THD of 0,03%. A nice cascade of MOS must be fun, too, even if they're a bit terrible to linearize (I don't know if adding 1/2 VDS over gate is applicable here). Now, allowing output stages up to 2kW isn't the same work at all, and is far over integrated amplifiers limits ;-) > >* Instead I've of course heard some nice Marshall valve amps (and I even was > >a bit surprised of the sound provided by a ValveState). > arg, i hate marshals, as their keepers always turn them up big time > and ruin my mix... That's because of the user, not the amplifier itself. I guess it gives nice sound for electric guitars, and as I do listen to bands like AC/DC over 10 years now I'm sure their sound would be pretty different if they were using another brand. Still, these amplifiers are a bit of mystery : I talked with one of my electronics teachers about these, he told me he had a full-valve Marschall schematic when he tried to build one for his son, he told me that was just good old valve technology (I assume it was an A-class) with nothing special, but agreed with me they must have something particular to blow that sound. > >problem). Well, if it was near the station they were not running fast, so we > >could expect there are not many people badly injured. > fortunately no people injured, but it is the third train that derails > in that particular stretch in four months time...... Mmmmm so it mustn't be the driver's fault then... Perhaps a set of worn rails ? I remember of a train incident some years ago in UK for this reason. > >> btw i live just east from central station > >It doesn't make a difference to me, as I never went to Amsterdam :-) > nice enough city but don't bring your car.... I've heard of that, moreover petrol seems even more expensive than in France (where it isn't cheap at all). I knew some guys which used to spend vacation in Amsterdam, but they were mainly interested by what you can't do in France* (see my point ?), not by the canals (spelling ?) themselves - which is the thing I may be interested in. * The funny point is their conclusion often is "you see mate, this is a country where you are freeer than in France". Possibly they don't know their cell phones performs PLU's 60 times an hour :-) Still, I certainly have fun on a trip to Holland, Amsterdam's canals & locks, Eindhoven's companies musems... Regards, G.T g.t6@worldonline.fr 205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : www.205d.com You are indeed correct that I need to take it to a Peugeot dealer, unless anyone knows of a good Peugeot specialist that does not charge dealership prices. It goes in on 30 August. If it is the MAP it could be (including diagnostics, part and labour) £250 or so. I have noticed the car is cutting out more frequently now. PS that is a Peugeot specialist in North London. My 406 is doing exactly the same, I have had it looked at in 2 garages and 1 said the lamba sensor {replaced but no different} the other said the coil pack {also replaced and no difference} I am about to replace the mapping sensor if I can find it at a reasonable price. If I replace it before 30th I will let you know. lawrenceryz@lawyer.com wrote: > I have a Peugeot 406 coupe 2.0 litre. Recently I have > been driving it on the motorway at around 60-70 MPH and [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Can anyone assist ? Sounds very much like a problem I had with my 206 a couple of months ago after some bush driving. The mechanic traced it to a lose wire that picks up a signal from the fly wheel (ignition?). Free fix and all is well again. Cheers, Julian SignatureJulian Mattay, email: julian x mattay z csiro x au (where x -> dot, z -> at) Local IT Bloke CSIRO, Forestry and Forest Products Ph: +61 8 8721 8118 Mt Gambier, South Australia, Australia Fax: +61 8 8723 9058 I had a problem like this years ago and the mob who look after the vehicle found some error reports stored in the system. These pointed to a faulty sensor - I forget what it sensed - anyway they fixed the problem. I think it was a temp sensor. Had same kind of problem. Turned out to be the ignition coils... Aat >I had a problem like this years ago and the mob who look after the > vehicle found some error reports stored in the system. These pointed to > a faulty sensor - I forget what it sensed - anyway they fixed the > problem. I think it was a temp sensor. |
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