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Car Forum / Peugeot Cars / May 200640 mpg Prius vs 50 mpg European Diesel cars
I noticed in Europe that diesels and turbo diesels are very common (eg Peugeot) with claims of 50 mpg mileage according to some owners I spoke to. They were pretty comfortable cars, too, just not as big as in the USA, though not tiny by any means, quite comparable to the Prius in size. So, given the fact that a diesel engine is ~15% more efficient, mpg-wise, for the same horsepower than a gasoline engine, and that with a turbo diesel you can get decent performance AND high mpg, why the heck are the majority of cars in the USA still gasoline? Is there some other factor that overrides the inherent efficiency of diesel? e.g. pollution? Is that really it? Or, is it just market inertia and historically low fuel prices relative to Europe? > Is there some other factor that overrides the inherent efficiency of > diesel? e.g. pollution? Is that really it? Or, is it just market > inertia and historically low fuel prices relative to Europe? I suspect fuel prices. I had a V6 mustang in the us a few years ago as a hire car. I did about 1200 miles in a week in it. Due to the differences in fuel prices it was much cheaper than running my 306 diesel back home. Even when I filled up twice in one day I did not spend much on fuel. Actually it was not two complete tanks, just that I did not want to run out of fuel anywhere embarrassing, like in a desert. I don't understand Priuses, as a technology demonstrator they are interesting but from what I have seen they are not as efficient as a diesel. Pete  Signaturehttp://www.petezilla.co.uk > I noticed in Europe that diesels and turbo diesels are very > common (eg Peugeot) [...] In Europe we have been developing and using diesels seriously in cars far longer than the US has, AFAIK. Private perceptions and legislation played their part, as did the clunky performance of designs back when attitudes were being set in stone. Add to that give-away prices of petrol in the US and it's not hard to realise why diesel became the Sooty Sheep of the fuels-family there. For many years, in the UK diesel was not taxed as hard as petrol -- not sure what today's situation is, as I don't run a diesel and anyhow prices (and taxes) are wandering all over the place. The famous London black taxis went diesel around when Adam was a lad, though the pong of diesel and vibration (coupled with urban taxi driving style) could be stomach-churners for passengers. > So, given the fact that a diesel engine is ~15% more efficient, > mpg-wise, for the same horsepower than a gasoline engine, [...] That figure is likely to depend on petrol engine type. You may be thinking of the commonplace Otto; but (and I mention it purely as you troubled to mention the Prius in your Subject and posting list) the Atkinson is more efficient than the Otto, especially if operated at/near constant speed, and we surely have not heard the last of oddities like the Stirling. Add modern control systems. IOW, study the whole vehicle package when evaluating efficiency. Previous discussions have wondered whether future hybrid cars may incorporate diesels, as do some buses currently being trialled in the UK. (NB: Google is your friend.) SignatureAndrew Stephenson >I noticed in Europe that diesels and turbo diesels are very common (eg > Peugeot) with claims of 50 mpg mileage according to some owners I spoke [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > diesel? e.g. pollution? Is that really it? Or, is it just market > inertia and historically low fuel prices relative to Europe? Disclaimer - my experience with diesels is limited to my TDi work truck. Diesels are still cantankerous - cold starts are problematic; they still clatter like something's wrong, especially when cold; the diesel guys who gave me basic instruction warned me to take it easy on the engine until it warmed up / quieted down. Cars like Mercedes have quiet interiors as a result of insulation, but outside they still clatter (so my former Euro-car mechanic partner tells me.) Smoke is a normal part of start-up and warm-up and smell is a normal part of operation. I canna change the laws of physics. Turbo diesels are plenty powerful once the turbo gets spun up, but until then I wish I had four feet so I could hold the accelerator to the floor with one, feather the clutch with a second, and do the Fred Flintstone thing with the other two. You haven't experienced turbo lag until you've waited for 20 psi boost to appear. (I understand VW's variable vane turbo reduces that quite a bit, but one still has to choose one's gap in traffic carefully.) Hybrids excel in off-the-line performance. A TDi hybrid, when the technical details are worked out, would make a dynamite power train. Even an electrically boosted turbocharger would be an improvement. Every diesel pump handle I've picked up is a smelly, oily thing. Gasoline evaporates, diesel accumulates. I always wear gloves while fueling. Diesels give great economy on the highway, but scarcely better than conventional gasoline engines in town. Hybrids walk all over them for in-town economy. Mike <snip) > Diesels are still cantankerous - cold starts are problematic; they still > clatter like something's wrong, especially when cold; the diesel guys who > gave me basic instruction warned me to take it easy on the engine until it > warmed up / quieted down. This was true of Turbo Diesels but I have found that the modern common rail diesel engine (of which I have Peugeots HDI model in the 406 that I had new in 1999) starts better than any petrol engine I have used and is far less noisy than its predecessors. Also, unlike petrol engines, there is no drop off in performance before the engine warms up, it starts and is ready to give full acceleration straight away. <snip> > Turbo diesels are plenty powerful once the turbo gets spun up, but until > then I wish I had four feet so I could hold the accelerator to the floor > with one, feather the clutch with a second, and do the Fred Flintstone > thing with the other two. You haven't experienced turbo lag until you've > waited for 20 psi boost to appear. Again, IME, the HDI engine seems not to suffer from any lag and is more akin to driving a petrol engined car when it comes to pull away and acceleration. And for interests sake my car averages 46mpg. SignatureKeith Willcocks (If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!) > <snip) >> Diesels are still cantankerous - cold starts are problematic; they still [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > akin to driving a petrol engined car when it comes to pull away and > acceleration. And for interests sake my car averages 46mpg. I've heard "yes" and "no" that Europe has more refined diesels (a Swedish friend who visits family every year says "no"); I presume the common rail engines are the ones they are talking about. I'll have to study those more. Do you know if they are available in any US cars? Mike (who agrees about the laughter!) >> <snip) >>> Diesels are still cantankerous - cold starts are problematic; they still [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Mike > (who agrees about the laughter!) I have no idea whether they are available in the US but I would be surprised if they weren't. I am in England and common rail are the norm over here now. Different companies have different names for their version, Peugeot is HDI but I have seen many others, much like the different names given to automatic gearbox systems. My cousin who was over from the States was well impressed with my Peugeot 406. I am no expert but as I understand it the older diesels had a pump looking like a distributor with a pipe to each injector and it pumped a shot of diesel into each cylinder at the appropriate moment being controlled mechanically. The common rail has one pipe along the side of the engine (the common rail) which has a pipe to each injector and the whole system is under continuous high pressure. The injectors are controlled electronically by the ECU which instructs them when to inject fuel and how much. Obviously there is much more to it but that is all I know. Suffice it to say that there is a world of difference between driving the two types. I believe you even get Jaguars now with common rail diesel engines. Glad you like my motto, its works well in this day and age. SignatureKeith Willcocks (If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!) > I am no expert but as I understand it the older diesels had a pump looking > like a distributor with a pipe to each injector and it pumped a shot of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > two types. I believe you even get Jaguars now with common rail diesel > engines. That makes sense - I assume the clatter is from the mechanical injectors. Mike >> I am no expert but as I understand it the older diesels had a pump >> looking like a distributor with a pipe to each injector and it pumped a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Mike Modern diesels have electronic fuel injection. Here are some good descriptions of what causes diesel clatter: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=139341&page=7 SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>> I am no expert but as I understand it the older diesels had a pump >>> looking like a distributor with a pipe to each injector and it pumped a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > descriptions of what causes diesel clatter: > http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=139341&page=7 That's an interesting link, although about all I can say is the subject of clatter is still controversial. It sure sounds like the combustion profile is important. Mike <snipped> >>> That makes sense - I assume the clatter is from the mechanical >>> injectors. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Mike I wouldn't describe the subject of the source of diesel clatter as controversial. IMO, "uninformed" is a more accurate description, especially in the U.S. where diesels are not common in passenger car applications. Basically, diesel "clatter" is the same sound you get when a gasoline engine is knocking. Add different tolerances and you get more noise at idle. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) There was much discussion in this thread about a diesel hybrid It turns out that GM of all people is way ahead in devloping hybrid diesel - in buses. the following links tell the story - diesel, hybrid, regenerative braking - the lot! 60% gain in economy. www.shadetreemechanic.com/allison_hybrid_drive.htm www.gm.com/company/gmability/edu_k-12/9-12/fc_energy/hybrid_allison.html www.hybrid-vehicles.net/gm-allison-hybrid-bus.htm I owe it to an Australian electronics magazine - Silicon Chip - which is running an article in its June issue on this GM - Allison project which is not pie in the sky - the vehicles are operating in various parts of the US. >> I am no expert but as I understand it the older diesels had a pump looking >> like a distributor with a pipe to each injector and it pumped a shot of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> two types. I believe you even get Jaguars now with common rail diesel >> engines. Same engine as the new 407 Hdi coupe V6 twin tubo> >That makes sense - I assume the clatter is from the mechanical injectors. > >Mike Yes the mechanical injector make clatter plus the mechanical injector pump as well. The common rail diesel are much quiter than mechanical injected diesel . A interesting point here is that indirect injected diesel (mech.) is quiter than a direct injected diesel (mech.). Down under we are paying between $A 1.42 to $A 1.44 per litre for diesel. Yandoit Australia * * * + "A poor excuse is like an old bucket; doesn't matter what shape it's in, as long as it holds water" * PK Shaw --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0618-2, 04/05/2006 Tested on: 5/05/2006 12:01:42 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com > "Keith Willcocks" <buccaneer@invalidaddress.com> wrote in message <snip> Commonrail diesels are VERY good. Comparable power and better torque than all but the top end petrol model-mates. They drive less like a diesel than old TDs and get HUGE economy. Theyre quiet, not quite as quiet as a petrol I admit, but certainly quieter than an older petrol engine. This is why ive never seen the point of hybrid as a current choice of car, maybe in 10 years when theyve matured. J >> "Keith Willcocks" <buccaneer@invalidaddress.com> wrote in message > <snip> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > J Hybrids work at the other end of the driving spectrum. The only advantage they offer on the open road (where diesels shine) is the ability to reduce engine size while maintaining passing performance, but in town they reduce the amount of time a gas or diesel engine is run in the lowest efficiency ranges. Hybridizing with a turbo diesel power plant is a very attractive idea - each covering the weaknesses of the other. There is no reason a TD hybrid 5 passenger sedan couldn't offer more than 100 mpg in town and 80 mpg on the freeway, at least at 65 mph. Mainly it takes advances in the power electronics. Mike >>> "Keith Willcocks" <buccaneer@invalidaddress.com> wrote in message >> <snip> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Mike I think the biggest drawback to a hybrid diesel is cost. Both the diesel powerplant and hybrid power plant cost more than a conventional gasoline (etrol) engine so a diesel hybrid would have a double cost disadvantage to overcome. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > I think the biggest drawback to a hybrid diesel is cost. Both the diesel > powerplant and hybrid power plant cost more than a conventional gasoline > (etrol) engine so a diesel hybrid would have a double cost disadvantage to > overcome. I would speculate that one problem with a diesel hybrid would be the extra power needed to crank the engine, remembering that this will happen quite frequently in a hybrid. This may mean more batteries (and hence weight) and a heavier engine anyway, meaning that the engine will need to run more frequently than it would in a petrol powered hybrid. The hybrids that I have seen have clearly been designed to minimise weight, even perhaps compromising braking and cornering performance by fitting narrower tyres. With present technology, it is even possible that the extra weight required by a diesel engine would cancel out the gain in fuel economy compared to a petrol engine. The one thing that would really make hybrids irresistable would be a means of charging the batteries from the mains. That way, even less fuel would be burned (at least by the car). But I doubt the oil companies would allow that to happen. SignatureCreated on the Iyonix PC - the world's fastest RISC OS computer. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/m.dixon4/ >> I think the biggest drawback to a hybrid diesel is cost. Both the diesel >> powerplant and hybrid power plant cost more than a conventional gasoline [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > engine will need to run more frequently than it would in a petrol > powered hybrid. Does the hybrid engine actually stop and restart then? I had always assumed that it simply dropped to a tick over when not required. Having to restart each time must be horrendous. SignatureKeith Willcocks (If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!) > Does the hybrid engine actually stop and restart then? I had always > assumed that it simply dropped to a tick over when not required. Having > to restart each time must be horrendous. Yep. On rare occasions mine shudders slightly when shutting down but otherwise it's not noticeable. A common hybrid experience is sitting at a light listening to the folks around you wasting fuel for no good reason. I corrected the subject line. >> Does the hybrid engine actually stop and restart then? I had always >> assumed that it simply dropped to a tick over when not required. Having [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > light listening to the folks around you wasting fuel for no good reason. > I corrected the subject line. Actually, my Peugeot 406 HDI diesel (the common rail engine) averages 46mpg . This means that, to average 46, it must at times exceed 50 to counteract higher consumption in traffic. Bear in mind though that these averages are using the Imperial gallon, not the smaller US one. Factoring the US gallon into my spreadsheet shows an average of 35mpg(US). I assume that the figures quoted for the hybrid are US, not Imperial? SignatureKeith Willcocks (If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!) > Actually, my Peugeot 406 HDI diesel (the common rail engine) averages > 46mpg . This means that, to average 46, it must at times exceed 50 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of 35mpg(US). I assume that the figures quoted for the hybrid are > US, not Imperial? Yes, the figures for the hybrid are US gallons. In the past year, my lowest mileage for a tank of gas has been 48 MPG; the highest has been 52 MPG. My highest ever was 53.4 MPG. And except for the first two tanks of gas, I have never had less than 46 MPG on a tank. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. >>Actually, my Peugeot 406 HDI diesel (the common rail engine) averages >>46mpg . This means that, to average 46, it must at times exceed 50 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 52 MPG. My highest ever was 53.4 MPG. And except for the first two > tanks of gas, I have never had less than 46 MPG on a tank. Were your lowest MPGs during the winter? Mine were. Other than that I was always above 50, usually 52-ish. This year my mileage is even better. SignatureJean B. interesting, anyone know what causes better mileage in winter? higher density of fuel due to cold? not running a/c? lower motor winding resistance due to cold? is this a common phenomenon? is it true for non-hybrid cars, or only hybrid cars? > interesting, anyone know what causes better mileage in winter? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > is it true for non-hybrid cars, or only hybrid cars? It isn't true for hybrid cars if you winter where the snow falls. > interesting, anyone know what causes better mileage in winter? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > is it true for non-hybrid cars, or only hybrid cars? I'm not sure that hybrid vehicles get better fuel economy in the winter than in the summer. For conventional internal combustion engines, the air is denser in cold weather so theoretically, the air-fuel mixture burns more completely. The engine takes longer to warm up in the winter so the air-fuel mixture is enriched a little longer so in the real world, most people tend to get better fuel economy in warmer weather. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) It is not true, the real thing is that the Prius has lower mpg's at winter, it is because it's main target is to be a close to zero emission vehicle, so at colder weather the catalyzer needs more gases going through it to keep at good work temperature to avoid contamination. > interesting, anyone know what causes better mileage in winter? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > is it true for non-hybrid cars, or only hybrid cars? > Yes, the figures for the hybrid are US gallons. In the past year, my > lowest mileage for a tank of gas has been 48 MPG; the highest has been > 52 MPG. My highest ever was 53.4 MPG. And except for the first two > tanks of gas, I have never had less than 46 MPG on a tank. Michelle, as a fellow Arizonan (Zonie) I have to mention the best we've had is the round trip from Flagstaff to Sedona and back: 61 mpg for the 60 mile trip with about 2000 ft difference in elevation. Hybrids love hills! Mike >>> Does the hybrid engine actually stop and restart then? I had always >>> assumed that it simply dropped to a tick over when not required. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Factoring the US gallon into my spreadsheet shows an average of 35mpg(US). > I assume that the figures quoted for the hybrid are US, not Imperial? Just got home. 146 miles mixed city/highway on my current tank. MPG (US) this tank 53.4. >>> Does the hybrid engine actually stop and restart then? I had always >>> assumed that it simply dropped to a tick over when not required. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Factoring the US gallon into my spreadsheet shows an average of 35mpg(US). > I assume that the figures quoted for the hybrid are US, not Imperial? Mine at least is US. Mike >>Does the hybrid engine actually stop and restart then? I had always >>assumed that it simply dropped to a tick over when not required. Having [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > light listening to the folks around you wasting fuel for no good reason. I > corrected the subject line. Don't you love it? (Or not?) I love being shut down when stopped--and being able to not just waste braking energy. SignatureJean B. Even better is going down a mild grade at 70 mph with the ICE shut down. Kari >>>Does the hybrid engine actually stop and restart then? I had always >>>assumed that it simply dropped to a tick over when not required. Having [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Don't you love it? (Or not?) I love being shut down when stopped--and > being able to not just waste braking energy. > Even better is going down a mild grade at 70 mph with the ICE shut down. > > Kari Right, and recovering energy in the process, energy that can be used on the up-side. >>>Does the hybrid engine actually stop and restart then? I had always >>>assumed that it simply dropped to a tick over when not required. Having [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Don't you love it? (Or not?) I love being shut down when stopped--and > being able to not just waste braking energy. Makes me feel quite smug, Jean. >>>>Does the hybrid engine actually stop and restart then? I had always >>>>assumed that it simply dropped to a tick over when not required. Having [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Makes me feel quite smug, Jean. You know, in my Passat (which I'm going to sell), I always seemed to have so much energy left when I came to a stop (even when I started braking/slowing WAY back), that I found myself thinking about that a lot.... SignatureJean B. > Does the hybrid engine actually stop and restart then? I had always > assumed that it simply dropped to a tick over when not required. > Having to restart each time must be horrendous. Yes, it does stop completely, and no, it is not horrendous. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. >> Does the hybrid engine actually stop and restart then? I had always >> assumed that it simply dropped to a tick over when not required. >> Having to restart each time must be horrendous. > > Yes, it does stop completely, and no, it is not horrendous. Hmm, does it have a way of keeping the engine warm between stops and starts? I'd imagine that provided the oil and block were kept up to temperature, and you had an efficient way of storing energy to restart the engine it should not be too bad. Signaturehttp://www.petezilla.co.uk >>Does the hybrid engine actually stop and restart then? I had always >>assumed that it simply dropped to a tick over when not required. >>Having to restart each time must be horrendous. > > Yes, it does stop completely, and no, it is not horrendous. I thought that would make me nervous, but it doesn't. Instead it is rather nice to see that 0 and know you are not just wasting gas when stopped (unless you have some auxiliary item running). SignatureJean B. > Does the hybrid engine actually stop and restart then? I had always > assumed that it simply dropped to a tick over when not required. Having > to restart each time must be horrendous. "Hybrid engine" is a misnomer. A vehicle with a hybrid propulsion system uses an internal combustion engine and a generator/starter and a special transmission that "mixes" the power from the IC and electric motors. Toyota's hybrid system does start and shut off the IC engine as needed, it is not horrendous and most people are not aware that it has started or stopped. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > Does the hybrid engine actually stop and restart then? I had always > assumed that it simply dropped to a tick over when not required. Having > to restart each time must be horrendous. Yes - I think all variations stop altogether. In the Toyota system the engine is cranked by using the pair of motor/generators differentially to spin the engine up to 1100 rpm (IIRC) before feeding fuel and spark. Since some Prius cars are over 200K miles and running sweetly the strategy must be working. There aren't many engines that get oil pressure before being fired up. What amazes me is that except for the occasional shudder when coming to a stop that Bill mentioned, I can rarely tell when the engine starts or stops. I would hazard a guess the engine restarts an average of something like once to ten times per mile in city driving. There is no starter sound ever - just "hmmm" and the engine is running as if by magic. OTOH, having the engine shut down is unnerving to new drivers (at least it was to my wife and me!) Mike > The one thing that would really make hybrids irresistable would be a > means of charging the batteries from the mains. That way, even less > fuel would be burned (at least by the car). But I doubt the oil > companies would allow that to happen. As you seem to realise but shrug off, the energy to charge the batteries would still have to come from somewhere. Needing to seek out a mains socket would involve some energy wastage, to which add those occasions when you are caught short with a flat battery, to which add the energy used in hauling around the much larger (and heavier) batteries required to give a decent range. Sorry but TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch). And I doubt the oil companies would have much say in the matter. SignatureAndrew Stephenson > > The one thing that would really make hybrids irresistable would be a > > means of charging the batteries from the mains. That way, even less [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > which add those occasions when you are caught short with a flat > battery, He's still referring to a hybrid. The IC engine would recharge the batteries. If I understand him correctly, he's thinking of a hybrid with a significantly bigger battery, that could simply go further without using the IC engine at all. If the car was used just for shorter commutes, the IC engine would never need to run. However, if the owner decided to take it out of town, he'd be spared the need to plug in every 30 or 40 miles (or less) by virtue of charging the battery from the IC engine. An optional battery pack that lay flat on the trunk floor, perhaps, would extend the range of the vehicle in electric-only mode and would be an interesting option. An expensive option, no doubt. > to which add the energy used in hauling around the much > larger (and heavier) batteries required to give a decent range. If you were going on a long trip, it would probably be even more helpful to be able to remove the battery for the trip. That would increase the capacity of the car, probably improve its overall fuel economy and you'd not be likely to be plugging in much along the way. > Sorry but TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch). > And I doubt the oil companies would have much say in the matter. And the car then becomes the ultimate flex-fuel vehicle. It's mostly fueled by whatever the power company finds to be cheapest at that particular time. Overnight, it's their base capacity, which is typically the cheapest electricity they can make. The nukes run all the time and probably make up the basest part of the base capacity in most places, so the car would be partially "nuclear-powered." I could use a car like that. 90% of my daily drives are under 20 miles. If you could add enough optional battery to a Prius to give me 20-mile range (maybe 10), I'd drive it as an electric vehicle most of the time. The thing that keeps people from buying an Electric Vehicle is that while 90% of their trips are under 20 (or whatever) miles and, it's the other 10% that rule out the limited range of the EV. When they do go out of town, the maxium range of an EV becomes a real problem. Who wants to stop every 100 miles on a 1000 mile trip and wait 6 hours to recharge the car? A hybrid solves that problem, using gas to both get a 400+mile range and 5-minute "recharges." A hybrid with a bigger, removeable battery can act like an EV 90% of the time. As an EV, of course, it's carrying around a lot of unnecessary weight (up to 90 lbs of gasoline, the IC engine, etc) but there are tradeoffs for everything. >> > The one thing that would really make hybrids irresistable would be a >> > means of charging the batteries from the mains. That way, even less [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > 90 lbs of gasoline, the IC engine, etc) but there are tradeoffs for > everything. You can go to toyota.com and look at Prius faq's and info about hybrid technology to learn why the Prius does not offer optional battery packs, plug-in chargers, etc., even the response to a question about whether the Ford Escape uses Toyota's technology (it does). It is natural human nature for people to think that their ideas are better than what the automakers have designed and built, but in most cases, the automotive engineers have thought everything through pretty thoroughly. Other factors to keep in mind are the marketability of a product, production and retail costs, and utility of the product. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > >> > The one thing that would really make hybrids irresistable would be a > >> > means of charging the batteries from the mains. That way, even less [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > Other factors to keep in mind are the marketability of a product, production > and retail costs, and utility of the product. Oh, I do not think I am smarter than Toyota's engineers. I figure they are thinking about this or have thought about it and the idea has been at least temporarily shelved under the heading of "infeasible" for reasons I don't know or "unmarketable, except to that DH character and a few loons like him." :-) I will check the faq, though, and see what they had to say. I hadn't realized they would bother to put up a faq that included speculative items like this. <snipped> Oh, I do not think I am smarter than Toyota's engineers. I figure they are > thinking about this or have thought about it and the idea has been at > least [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > realized they would bother to put up a faq that included speculative items > like this. Toyota has a reputation among the public and automotive press for making good cars. Toyota's reputation among automakers is that of being a moneymaking machine and being perhaps the best in the world at "doing business." i can tell you from firsthand experience that Toyota gives thought to every actioin. I've often thought that Toyota should have designed and marketed the Highlander, RX 400h, Camry, GS, and LS hybrids for good fuel economy yet the emphasis for these vehicles is more on performance than fuel economy because Toyota is aware the hybrid powertrain does not make sense from a pure dollars and cents view. Rather than market to people who are trying to save money, they market to people with money who want performance and reasonable fuel economy. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > > > The one thing that would really make hybrids irresistable would be a > > > means of charging the batteries from the mains. That way, even less [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > a hybrid with a significantly bigger battery, that could simply > go further without using the IC engine at all. [...] Okay, I see his point. Fair enough, if the flexibility you go on to describe can be made to work. My short-term expectation is that battery technology will shrink the current pack. This would (a) release more space in the rear of the car (for normal uses like carting around random rubbish) and/or (b) allow more battery capacity in much the same volume. SignatureAndrew Stephenson >> The one thing that would really make hybrids irresistable would be a >> means of charging the batteries from the mains. That way, even less [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > battery, to which add the energy used in hauling around the much > larger (and heavier) batteries required to give a decent range. You would still have your petrol engine for times when the battery got low. But at least you could arrange to always start out with a full charge. If you did a lot of short journeys, it would vastly reduce overall fuel consumption. > Sorry but TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch). > And I doubt the oil companies would have much say in the matter. SignatureCreated on the Iyonix PC - the world's fastest RISC OS computer. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/m.dixon4/ >> I think the biggest drawback to a hybrid diesel is cost. Both the diesel >> powerplant and hybrid power plant cost more than a conventional gasoline [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > engine will need to run more frequently than it would in a petrol > powered hybrid. A hybrid already has extra batteries so having the power to crank a diesel is not a problem. The hybrid controller would have to be programmed a little differently to allow for the additional power needed to crank a hybrid engine. > The hybrids that I have seen have clearly been designed to minimise > weight, even perhaps compromising braking and cornering performance by > fitting narrower tyres. With present technology, it is even possible > that the extra weight required by a diesel engine would cancel out the > gain in fuel economy compared to a petrol engine. A diesel engine doesn't weigh THAT much more than a petrol engine. A diesel hybrid is technically feasible but it is not necessarily something that a consumer would pay 2 premiums for. There is a premium to build a diesel powerplant and there is a premium for a hybrid system, and it is unlikely that a consumer would pay over $5,000 more for a diesel hybrid. As I mentioned before > The one thing that would really make hybrids irresistable would be a > means of charging the batteries from the mains. That way, even less > fuel would be burned (at least by the car). But I doubt the oil > companies would allow that to happen. There are a lot of totally ridiculous conspiracy theories floating around that the oil companies control the technology that goes into consumer vehicles. Since consumers buy a lot more cars than oil companies, the automakers have a lot more to gain by producing something consumers want than what oil companies want. Again, the factors that make charging the batteries from household current are practical; - the hybrid system has the capacity to charge the batteries as necessary so an additional power source is not needed with the current battery capacity. - Adding additional battery capacity costs more money to build, adds weight to the vehicle, and reduces cargo and/or passenger space in the vehicle. Some enterprising do-it-yourselfers have fitted external chargers and additional battery packs at a cost roughly equal to the cost of the hybrid vehicle and they have had to use all of the cargo space in the car to do it. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > >> I think the biggest drawback to a hybrid diesel is cost. Both the diesel > >> powerplant and hybrid power plant cost more than a conventional gasoline [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > additional battery packs at a cost roughly equal to the cost of the hybrid > vehicle and they have had to use all of the cargo space in the car to do it. What is the physical size of the battery pack in the Toyota Pirus? I do wish Toyota would change the name, I have a hell of a time with the spelling. Signature<snipped> >> Again, the factors that make charging the batteries from household >> current [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I do wish Toyota would change the name, I have a hell of a time with the > spelling. According to the information on this site http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-technical-info there are 228 batteries roughly the size of a D-cell battery. There is a picture of the battery pack on the site. SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) > <snipped> > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > batteries roughly the size of a D-cell battery. There is a picture of the > battery pack on the site. Thanks, bookmarked for later consumption. I'm told by the service manager at my dealer the battery pack is surrounded by computers and not user serviceable. Amazing technology and I think it will only get better. I have a friend who has a hybrid Highlander and likes it. He just checked mileage in city driving and it was 36 mpg city driving. Not bad for a vehicle of that size and weight. I just had my 04 Sienna on a road trip this week and I checked the mileage, 27.63 MPG, also not bad for a 4400 lb vehicle, gas only. I'm a prudent driver which helps. Signature> Thanks, bookmarked for later consumption. I'm told by the service > manager at my dealer the battery pack is surrounded by computers and not > user serviceable. Amazing technology and I think it will only get > better. Close enough description, I think. Don't touch it, you'll break it. Sit back und watch der blinkenlights. Mike yeah, I wonder what the corporate image makers were thinking with that name? Is it supposed to suggest anything at all? The only association that 'Prius' brings to my mind is 'Priapus', but maybe that's just me? > yeah, I wonder what the corporate image makers were thinking with that > name? Is it supposed to suggest anything at all? > > The only association that 'Prius' brings to my mind is 'Priapus', but > maybe that's just me? According to the faq section of Toyota's web site, "Prius" is derived from the Latin prefix meaning "to go before" SignatureRay O (correct punctuation to reply) >>> I think the biggest drawback to a hybrid diesel is cost. Both the diesel >>> powerplant and hybrid power plant cost more than a conventional gasoline [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >additional battery packs at a cost roughly equal to the cost of the hybrid >vehicle and they have had to use all of the cargo space in the car to do it. A coupl points to be added to the above. The life of the batteries I know they are specially made given a standard battery life is 3-4 years. The cost of replacement plus warranty period (this may be seperate). Are they ( battery) recyclable. Like all cars they will at some point will required repair /service and the cost of this service ???????? Yandoit Australia * * * + "A poor excuse is like an old bucket; doesn't matter what shape it's in, as long as it holds water" * PK Shaw --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0618-3, 05/05/2006 Tested on: 6/05/2006 11:18:19 AM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com > A coupl points to be added to the above. > > The life of the batteries I know they are specially made given a standard > battery life is 3-4 years. Expected life of Prius battery exceeds 10 years. The cost of replacement plus warranty period (this may be seperate). Who knows? None have been replaced yet. I heard the price has dropped considerably. Are they ( battery) recyclable. Yes. > Like all cars they will at some point will required repair /service and > the cost of this service ???????? Like all cars, that depends on what needs to be serviced and where the service is performed. > The hybrids that I have seen have clearly been designed to minimise > weight, even perhaps compromising braking and cornering performance by > fitting narrower tyres. With present technology, it is even possible > that the extra weight required by a diesel engine would cancel out the > gain in fuel economy compared to a petrol engine. I saw an article where a Westfield (or possibly a Caterham) that was unmodified except for special wheels / tyres, achived over 100mpg with a K series engine. Not sure I'd want to drive it on the public roads with those tyres, in the photo they made 2CV wheels look low profile and sporty! Signaturehttp://www.petezilla.co.uk > Hybrids work at the other end of the driving spectrum. The only advantage > they offer on the open road (where diesels shine) is the ability to reduce > engine size while maintaining passing performance, but in town they reduce > the amount of time a gas or diesel engine is run in the lowest efficiency > ranges. Still dont see it, my friend has a commonrail TD and gets 45 doing city driving, which is still above a hybrid? > Hybridizing with a turbo diesel power plant is a very attractive idea - > each covering the weaknesses of the other. There is no reason a TD hybrid > 5 passenger sedan couldn't offer more than 100 mpg in town and 80 mpg on > the freeway, at least at 65 mph. Mainly it takes advances in the power > electronics. Would be harder than with a petrol - re-starting a diesel requires far more cranking torque, so you'd need more powerful motors and its likely to cause a jerk, unlike a petrol car that can smoothly be 'bumped' as its low compression. J "my friend has a commonrail TD and gets 45 doing city driving" interesting, what make model car is that? >> Hybrids work at the other end of the driving spectrum. The only advantage >> they offer on the open road (where diesels shine) is the ability to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Still dont see it, my friend has a commonrail TD and gets 45 doing city > driving, which is still above a hybrid? We get mid/upper 40s in our hybrid around this hilly mountain town even with short trips and cold weather. In Phoenix it is consistently over 50 mpg in town, running A/C in a car that carries 5 adults easily and has what is effectively a perfectly smooth automatic transmission. Sitting at lights it is dead quiet most of the time and on the road it's still on the quiet side of average. In all states in the US it has the SULEV emissions rating. The merging capability is better than any of our other cars, including our 1985 turbo Volvo (gotta hate that turbo lag!) Ours is the older, less efficient version - and represents a technology in its infancy. I give diesel its due: it has undeniable advantages as an auto fuel. Mike > > Hybridizing with a turbo diesel power plant is a very attractive idea - > > each covering the weaknesses of the other. There is no reason a TD hybrid [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > a jerk, unlike a petrol car that can smoothly be 'bumped' as its low > compression. No, it would be done the way the Prius does it: spin the engine up to speed before applying compression (that is, hold the valves open) and fuel. > No, it would be done the way the Prius does it: spin the engine up to > speed before applying compression (that is, hold the valves open) and > fuel. So it has valve lifters. Is the only reason this is not done on regular engines the extra complexity? Signaturehttp://www.petezilla.co.uk >> Hybridizing with a turbo diesel power plant is a very attractive idea - each covering the weaknesses of the other. There is no >> reason a TD hybrid 5 passenger sedan couldn't offer more than 100 mpg in town and 80 mpg on the freeway, at least at 65 mph. >> Mainly it takes advances in the power electronics. > > Would be harder than with a petrol - re-starting a diesel requires far more cranking torque, so you'd need more powerful motors > and its likely to cause a jerk, unlike a petrol car that can smoothly be 'bumped' as its low compression. Nope. The VW diesel uses the same starter as the gasoline model, about 3 hp. A 20 to 50 kw motor will easily spin the diesel motor. Lynn > <snip) >> Diesels are still cantankerous - cold starts are problematic; they still [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > akin to driving a petrol engined car when it comes to pull away and > acceleration. And for interests sake my car averages 46mpg. I get better mileage than that with my Prius, burn less expensive fuel, and my exhaust emissions are cleaner. What's your point? > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message >, it starts and is ready to > give full acceleration straight away. Except you wouldnt do that for the sake of your engine would you, poor thing accelerating hard when cold! > Again, IME, the HDI engine seems not to suffer from any lag and is more akin > to driving a petrol engined car when it comes to pull away and acceleration. > And for interests sake my car averages 46mpg. Agreed, modern common rails are amazing little creations. Mind you I manage to average 45 from a carb'd petrol engined small car that is 17 years old so you'd have hoped they could have got a little more out by now :) J >> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message >>, it starts and is ready to >> give full acceleration straight away. > > Except you wouldnt do that for the sake of your engine would you, poor > thing accelerating hard when cold! When cold the Prius engine speed doesn't change noticeably on even fairly strong acceleration, like we do going up the hill from our house - that is done by the electrics. The engine continues to do its warm-up process at about 1200-1500 rpm. Of course, you wouldn't want to take any present day car right onto the freeway when cold, that would stress the engine. In a serial hybrid (not available in production today) it wouldn't matter at all. Mike What you save in fuel mileage you loose when it breaks, and parts are needed( more expensive) also fuel filters and maintenance cost are another looser, Diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline in today's market, in the winter you need blended fuel or worse #1 that's probably going to cost $3.75 a gal this winter, or expensive additives that keep the fuel from gelling.I have owned 2 diesel and there great for mileage but when it breaks no matter what it is, it cost more! Tom >I noticed in Europe that diesels and turbo diesels are very common (eg > Peugeot) with claims of 50 mpg mileage according to some owners I spoke [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > diesel? e.g. pollution? Is that really it? Or, is it just market > inertia and historically low fuel prices relative to Europe? > What you save in fuel mileage you loose when it breaks, and parts are needed( more expensive) also fuel filters and maintenance > cost are another looser, Diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline in today's market, in the winter you need blended fuel or > worse #1 that's probably going to cost $3.75 a gal this winter, or expensive additives that keep the fuel from gelling.I have > owned 2 diesel and there great for mileage but when it breaks no matter what it is, it cost more! Here in Houston, Texas, gasoline is $2.99 and diesel $2.79. Lynn > > What you save in fuel mileage you loose when it breaks, and parts > > are needed( more expensive) also fuel filters and maintenance cost [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Lynn thats it i am going to ship alot of diesel over to the u.k for my self. as it is cheaper.we are paying 98.9 lt which is well over the price.and why is it one tescos can charge 98.9 and the other one which is only 1.5 miles away can charge 99.9. if any body knows the reply.. > > What you save in fuel mileage you loose when it breaks, and parts are needed( more expensive) also fuel filters and maintenance > > cost are another looser, Diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline in today's market, in the winter you need blended fuel or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Lynn Well, here in the UK it is more like $6.60 per US Gallon. >> What you save in fuel mileage you loose when it breaks, and parts are >> needed( more expensive) also fuel filters and maintenance cost are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Lynn When I was on The Big Rez (the Navajo reservation that covers much of Northern AZ and part of New Mexico) in November, I paid nearly $.90 per gallon more for diesel than the regular cost. I guess it is because the locals don't use diesel. Mike >> What you save in fuel mileage you loose when it breaks, and parts are >> needed( more expensive) also fuel filters and maintenance [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Lynn Diesel is cheaper than petrol in most of Europe too, in some places about two thirds the price of pertol, but in France at least the gap is narrowing. In the UK diesel is slightly more expensive, but that is becuse of taxation differences. The rate of taxation on motor fuel is getting on for 400%! SignatureCreated on the Iyonix PC - the world's fastest RISC OS computer. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/m.dixon4/ >> What you save in fuel mileage you loose when it breaks, and parts are needed( more expensive) also fuel filters and maintenance >> cost are another looser, Diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline in today's market, in the winter you need blended fuel or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Lynn Wow. When I left Houston in 1987 (to move north), gas was 67 cents/gal This is a drivel post. Diesel is more energy-intensive than petrol. This is the sole reason diesels show a mileage advantage. On my farm I have both diesel and petrol vehicles and the diesels always put put more work per litre than the petrols. To introduce the petrol/diesel energy differential into the greenhouse debate is a red-herring. Whenever we dig up fuel and release it into the atmosphere we are bringing the day when Venice, London, Sydney and Tuvalu disappear below the waves closer. The fractioning process which separates diesel from petrol uses energy - probably more than than the energy-advantage of diesel compared with petrol. The only fundamental advantage of diesel may be that its engines last longer (because diesel, unlike petrol, is a lubricant - I have never seen any research results on this but I have a geriatric Ford 2000 tractor which will probably outlast me). > To introduce the petrol/diesel energy differential into the greenhouse > debate is a red-herring. Whenever we dig up fuel and release it into > the atmosphere we are bringing the day when Venice, London, Sydney and > Tuvalu disappear below the waves closer. And New Orleans but that is perhaps another issue. Of course, diesels also can run on bio-fuel, which is now readily available, though not in large enough quantities. > The fractioning process which separates diesel from petrol uses energy > - probably more than than the energy-advantage of diesel compared with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > seen any research results on this but I have a geriatric Ford 2000 > tractor which will probably outlast me). Fundamentally, they also push out less greenhouse gasses than petrol engines. The new engines, with exhaust filters are cleaner than any other IC engine currently. > This is a drivel post. Diesel is more energy-intensive than petrol. > This is the sole reason diesels show a mileage advantage. Wrong. 1. Diesels vary their air to fuel ratio. Under partial loads, diesel air to fuel ratio can exceed 100 to one, Gasoline air to fuel ratio is 14.7 to 1. 2. Diesels use very high compression. Engine efficiency is a function of compression ratio. 3. Diesel has about 11% more efficiency than gasoline on a volume basis. > To introduce the petrol/diesel energy differential into the greenhouse > debate is a red-herring. Whenever we dig up fuel and release it into > the atmosphere we are bringing the day when Venice, London, Sydney and > Tuvalu disappear below the waves closer. That is a hypothesis, not a fact. However, using a vehicle that is more efficient than another just makes sense if you believe this. Lnyy > This is a drivel post. Diesel is more energy-intensive than petrol. > This is the sole reason diesels show a mileage advantage. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > seen any research results on this but I have a geriatric Ford 2000 > tractor which will probably outlast me). Drivel indeed, starting with the 40 mpg Prius bullshit. Trains and heavy trucks are using diesel engines. What does that tell us? Signature> Trains and heavy trucks are using diesel engines. What does that tell > us? There is more energy in diesel than in gas. > Trains and heavy trucks are using diesel engines. What does that tell > us? That for a long time Diesel engines were more economical to operate than were gasoline engines, back when nobody gave a sh.t about emissions. > > Trains and heavy trucks are using diesel engines. What does that tell > > us? > > That for a long time Diesel engines were more economical to operate than > were gasoline engines, back when nobody gave a sh.t about emissions. Same holds true with gas engines. When I spent some time in Vietnam the streets of Saigon were choked with smoke from motorbikes and trucks, many were two cycle gas engines. This was in the late sixties. I think we've cleaned up gas and diesel engines quite a bit from those days. Signature> > That for a long time Diesel engines were more economical to operate > > than were gasoline engines, back when nobody gave a sh.t about [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the streets of Saigon were choked with smoke from motorbikes and > trucks, many were two cycle gas engines. Keep in mind that two-cycle engines burn lubricating oil; that's what emits the smoke and odor. BTW, when where you there? I was in Saigon from Sept to Nov 67, and in DaNang from Nov 67 to Aug 68. SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. > > > That for a long time Diesel engines were more economical to operate > > > than were gasoline engines, back when nobody gave a sh.t about [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > BTW, when where you there? I was in Saigon from Sept to Nov 67, and in > DaNang from Nov 67 to Aug 68. Spring 66 to 67. 22 TASS at Binh Thuy AB about 6 km from Can Tho in the delta. I was in Saigon only a few weeks in 66. Signature> > BTW, when where you there? I was in Saigon from Sept to Nov 67, > > and in DaNang from Nov 67 to Aug 68. > > Spring 66 to 67. 22 TASS at Binh Thuy AB about 6 km from Can Tho in > the delta. I was in Saigon only a few weeks in 66. I was in DaNang during the TET offensive. I had been scheduled for a short TDY to Hue, but it was postponed because of the anticipated offensive that only we MI types believed was going to happen. That was very fortunate because everyone in the office that I would have been at was either killed or captured by the NVA. -- Michelle SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. > > > BTW, when where you there? I was in Saigon from Sept to Nov 67, > > > and in DaNang from Nov 67 to Aug 68. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > -- Michelle Amazing luck. I'm happy we both made it out alive. I hope to make it back to the Vietnam memorial at least once more in my lifetime. Signature> Amazing luck. I'm happy we both made it out alive. Me too. > I hope to make it back to the Vietnam memorial at least once more in > my lifetime. I hope to make it at least once; until about a decade ago, I was not emotionally ready to visit it, and since then I haven't had the opportunity to visit DC. -- Michelle SignatureStop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush. > Drivel indeed, starting with the 40 mpg Prius bullshit. You bet - mileage that poor would disappoint any Prius owner. Ours has been that low on some 75 mph trips where the elevation increased a lot, or when plowing through snowy streets, but otherwise 40 is unacceptably low for a Prius. Mike > This is a drivel post. Diesel is more energy-intensive than petrol. > This is the sole reason diesels show a mileage advantage. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the atmosphere we are bringing the day when Venice, London, Sydney and > Tuvalu disappear below the waves closer. Do people still beleive that propaganda. I understand a recent summary has shown that global warming stopped in 1998, and global temperature has been stable since then. But the GW industry is now such a juggernaut that I doubt something like facts will derail it. They will still be hyping up GW when the ice age comes! > The fractioning process which separates diesel from petrol uses energy > - probably more than than the energy-advantage of diesel compared with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > seen any research results on this but I have a geriatric Ford 2000 > tractor which will probably outlast me). SignatureCreated on the Iyonix PC - the world's fastest RISC OS computer. http://homepage.ntlworld.com/m.dixon4/ > [...] I understand a recent summary has shown that global > warming stopped in 1998, and global temperature has been stable > since then. News out today (or, at least, reported today on BBC-tv) is that the very freshest scientific calculations suggest (a) that the probability of the changes we've seen so far being natural are somewhere around 1% and (b) by 2050 or so we can expect global temperature rises of 3 degC. Maybe the BBC website has more. It gives me NO pleasure to pass on that news, FWIW. :-( SignatureAndrew Stephenson |
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