Car Forum / Peugeot Cars / September 2006
Spare key not starting engine
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Dave G - 02 Sep 2006 13:09 GMT Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) should start the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns over but displays " electronic ant-theft device is defective " and refuses to start. The main key ( a 2 button electronic key ) now works normally. The car is a 2003 406S HDI.
Thanks in advance .. DaveG
David Hearn - 03 Sep 2006 15:24 GMT > Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) should start > the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns over but displays " > electronic ant-theft device is defective " and refuses to start. The main key > ( a 2 button electronic key ) now works normally. The car is a 2003 406S HDI. > > Thanks in advance .. DaveG Has the spare key been programmed into the ECU? We have 3 keys, 2 programmed into the ECU, one not. All can open the car and turn the ignition, but only the 2 which have been programmed in will disable the immobiliser and allow the car to actually start.
D
Dave G - 03 Sep 2006 21:37 GMT >> Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) should start >> the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns over but displays " [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >D Hi and thanks for your reply. I can not see how my spare key can be programmed into the ECU because it contains no electronics. It will open the car and enable the ignition but on attempting to start the message " electronic anti-theft device is defective " there are no buttons, batteries or electronics in the key pod but it was the key that was supplied with the car from new. Its a long story but this has cost me £80 NCP car parking fees and £200 in extra nights in a London hotel but I managed to repair the normal 2 button key in the hotel bedroom eventually.
Does your key that will not start the engine have any buttons etc ? Or have you chosen not to enable that key. I think the question I should be asking is what is the point of Peugeot suppling a spare key that will not start the engine.
Many thanks for your response ... Dave G
Phil Cook - 03 Sep 2006 23:45 GMT >>> Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) should start >>> the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns over but displays " >>> electronic ant-theft device is defective " and refuses to start. The main key >>> ( a 2 button electronic key ) now works normally. The car is a 2003 406S HDI.
>>Has the spare key been programmed into the ECU? We have 3 keys, 2 >>programmed into the ECU, one not. All can open the car and turn the >>ignition, but only the 2 which have been programmed in will disable the >>immobiliser and allow the car to actually start.
>Hi and thanks for your reply. I can not see how my spare key can be >programmed into the ECU because it contains no electronics. It will open the >car and enable the ignition but on attempting to start the message " >electronic anti-theft device is defective " there are no buttons, batteries >or electronics in the key pod but it was the key that was supplied with the >car from new.
>I think the question I should be asking is what is the point of Peugeot >suppling a spare key that will not start the engine. I am assuming here that the spare key is roughly the same shape and size as the one with the buttons. The old system used by Pug used to rely on IR codes to disarm the immobiliser, they now use a chip in the key that is read by the car. The car asks the key for its ID as part of the start up procedure. No battery is needed in the key for this just a chip that is activated when in range. The buttons on the key merely work the central locking.
Have you ever used the spare before? I suspect it has never been programmed to the ECU. If you have had the car from new you should contact your Pug dealer to find out which keys have been programmed to the ECU. This is what Pug recomend you to do when you buy second-hand to check that there are no extra keys out there. If it turns out there is only one key programmed I think you have every right to complain to the dealer who sold you the car in the first place.
Dave G - 04 Sep 2006 21:16 GMT Hi, Many thanks for your reply. This is the first time I have to use the spare key. I have managed to open the plastic bit and there are no electronics in the fob at all, it is not possible that this key can talk to the ECU. I will try a different dealer as mine is a complete waste of space. Many thanks for your help. DaveG
>>>> Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) should start >>>> the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns over but displays " [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >is only one key programmed I think you have every right to complain to >the dealer who sold you the car in the first place. Dave G - 04 Sep 2006 21:16 GMT Hi, Many thanks for your reply. This is the first time I have to use the spare key. I have managed to open the plastic bit and there are no electronics in the fob at all, it is not possible that this key can talk to the ECU. I will try a different dealer as mine is a complete waste of space. Many thanks for your help. DaveG
>>>> Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) should start >>>> the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns over but displays " [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >is only one key programmed I think you have every right to complain to >the dealer who sold you the car in the first place. David Hearn - 05 Sep 2006 10:02 GMT Just to repeat, my second key, which isn't a 'plip'/button one, doesn't contain any visible electronics. There is a tiny little RF chip inside embedded in the plastic end. The only way to see the RF chip is to melt the key/cut it up.
D
> Hi, Many thanks for your reply. This is the first time I have to use the > spare key. I have managed to open the plastic bit and there are no [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> is only one key programmed I think you have every right to complain to >> the dealer who sold you the car in the first place. David Hearn - 04 Sep 2006 09:09 GMT >>> Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) should start >>> the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns over but displays " [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Many thanks for your response ... Dave G Of the 3 keys we have, 1 has a button to do the central locking, but the other 2 have no buttons, cannot be dismantled (single casting of plastic), however they do have small chips in them which are used by the immobiliser system. There's a coil near/around the ignition lock which energises the embedded chip and then gives it's ID to the system. If the ID is in the ECU then it disables the immobiliser. If it's not, then the starter will turn, but the injectors/pump/spark plugs or something don't work, thus stopping it from starting.
The history was when we got the car (2nd hand from a Pug dealer) we only got 1 key (the button one). We therefore asked for a 2nd key to be provided and programmed free. A few weeks later we got it but it wasn't a button one for the central locking - queried this and they said this was standard due to the cost etc. Fine with me. Then a few weeks/months later they sent us another key saying the original seller had found their spare key and given it to them. Tried it in the car and it did everything except start it. When asked about it, they explained that only 2 keys could be programmed into the ECU and therefore this one had been disabled.
That's why we have 3 keys and only 2 work, even if it doesn't have a button/obvious electronics in it.
D
Nom - 04 Sep 2006 10:03 GMT >>> Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) should start >>> the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns over but displays " [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >or electronics in the key pod but it was the key that was supplied with the >car from new... Your dealer is telling you lies.
When new, your 406 had *TWO* electronic keys - both identical, and both fully functional.
As you've found out, a "spare" key with no electronics is a complete waste of time ... someone somewhere has your second "real" key.
daddyfreddy@gmail.com - 04 Sep 2006 11:34 GMT > >>> Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) should start > >>> the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns over but displays " [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Your dealer is telling you lies. A car dealer telling porkie pies? Surely not! ;-)
David Hearn - 04 Sep 2006 11:40 GMT >>>> Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) should start >>>> the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns over but displays " [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > As you've found out, a "spare" key with no electronics is a complete waste of > time ... someone somewhere has your second "real" key. Are you sure about that? Most people I know who have bought new cars with 'plip' type remotes for central locking only received 1 with buttons, the other being a normal key (which works with the immobiliser etc). This includes Peugeots, Fords and Volvos.
Not having buttons doesn't mean it's not electronic.
D
Nom - 04 Sep 2006 14:31 GMT >>>>>Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) should start >>>>> the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns over but displays " [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >buttons, the other being a normal key (which works with the immobiliser >etc). This includes Peugeots, Fords and Volvos. My Mk2 405 had two keys, both with "plips". My Rover 600 had two keys, both with "plips". My current 406 Coupe has two keys, both with "plips". My parent's Mondeo has two keys, both with "plips". Their previous Rover 800 had two keys, both with "plips". My Brother's 206 has two keys, both with "plips". My Grandad's 307 has two keys, both with "plips".
Do you see a pattern developing here :)
I've *never* known a car to only come with one fully functional key - it's complete loonacy ! A spare isn't a spare if you can't use it inplace of the original.
Peugeots *definitely* come with two fully-featured keys - there's been 7 in my household in the past 8 years.
Remember that dealers lie ! When I bought my used Mk2 405, it only had one key with it. I asked for a second key, and the dealer said they only came with one key from new (because they didn't want to pay for a second one for me). A few weeks later, I tracked down the second key (the one the dealer said didn't exist) - the previous owner still had it.
Also remember that keys are regularly lost - many many used cars only have one key ... but this doesn't mean they didn't have two when they were new !
Tometa - 04 Sep 2006 15:20 GMT "Nom" <Nom@Somewhere.Somewhere> je napisao u poruci interesnoj grupi:edh9qt02orv@drn.newsguy.com...
> Do you see a pattern developing here :) > > I've *never* known a car to only come with one fully functional key - it's > complete loonacy ! My new 307 came with two keys, only one with "plips". Pattern?
G.T - 04 Sep 2006 16:47 GMT Hi,
> My new 307 came with two keys, only one with "plips". Pattern? Export feature ? My parents' 206 (2002) they bought in 2003 came with two keys as well, one with the remote, one without.
Regards, -- G.T 205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : www.205d.com
Dave G - 04 Sep 2006 21:24 GMT Hi, Thanks for your reply, are you sure that the one without plips starts the engine ?
TIA .. Dave G.
>"Nom" <Nom@Somewhere.Somewhere> je napisao u poruci interesnoj >grupi:edh9qt02orv@drn.newsguy.com... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >My new 307 came with two keys, only one with "plips". Pattern? Phil Cook - 04 Sep 2006 23:55 GMT >Hi, Thanks for your reply, are you sure that the one without plips starts the >engine ? My 306 has two keys; both start the engine. One with plips one without.
JohnJBurness - 04 Sep 2006 23:00 GMT > "Nom" <Nom@Somewhere.Somewhere> je napisao u poruci interesnoj > grupi:edh9qt02orv@drn.newsguy.com... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > My new 307 came with two keys, only one with "plips". Pattern? My 307, when new, came with 2 keys - both had "plips"!!
Regards, John
Nom - 05 Sep 2006 12:26 GMT >> "Nom" <Nom@Somewhere.Somewhere> je napisao u poruci interesnoj >> grupi:edh9qt02orv@drn.newsguy.com... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> My new 307 came with two keys, only one with "plips". Pattern? Then one is missing. Your dealer probably lost it, and replaced it with a cheaper none-plip key.
>My 307, when new, came with 2 keys - both had "plips"!! Yep, that's just how it should be.
Keith Willcocks - 04 Sep 2006 18:31 GMT >>>>> Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) should >>>>> start [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Not having buttons doesn't mean it's not electronic. My 1999 406 came new with two fully functional wireless "plip" keys and both work. I tend to alternate between keys to keep them both in use.
 Signature Keith Willcocks (If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!)
Terrytubby - 04 Sep 2006 22:10 GMT > Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) should > start the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns over but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thanks in advance .. DaveG My 206 has the two "plip" keys so haven't tried this one, but I'm sure I have read it somewhere.
If you put the non plip key into the lock and hold the plip key next to it while turning, would it work then? Not too sure whether the electronics would constantly look for the signal, which would make it a pointless exercise, but may be worth a try, just in case it happens again (unless the problem was with the car recognising the plip key that is).
 Signature Terry
A reply is always appreciated, even if it's to say I was wrong!
Phil Cook - 04 Sep 2006 23:57 GMT >> Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) should >> start the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns over but [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >exercise, but may be worth a try, just in case it happens again (unless the >problem was with the car recognising the plip key that is). That's the old system where you could program a key into the IR system. The newer keys need a dealer visit.
Chris Dugan - 05 Sep 2006 00:26 GMT > That's the old system where you could program a key into the IR > system. The newer keys need a dealer visit. Or save your money and DIY:
http://www.peugeotdiesel.com
As for Dave G via CarKB... I think the second key that you have is one without a transponder inside. It doesn't need any other electronics e.g. buttons as they are just central locking or boot release on Pugs. But the key does need the transponder and it does need to be coded to the cars ECU, is there an extra plastic block or glass container with some electronics inside it in the keyfob? That will be the transponder, failing that as one person has said, just use the spare key in the ignition and hold the original key close to the steering lock when you start the car.
Chris
G.T - 05 Sep 2006 08:12 GMT Hi Chris,
> is there an extra plastic block or glass container with some electronics > inside it in the keyfob? That will be the transponder, failing that as one I don't understand what you mean by "glass container". If you mean a "window" on the side of the key, it's useless as they use RF, and not IR anymore.
Regards, -- G.T 205 Diesel & turbo-Diesel : www.205d.com
Chris Dugan - 07 Sep 2006 20:36 GMT > Hi Chris, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "window" on the side of the key, it's useless as they use RF, and not IR > anymore. Let's try 'glass capsule', I was struggling to find the words that night when I wrote that :D
I know they use RF. The capsules are actually powered by the RF pulse from the coil surrounding the lock and they respond to this by transmitting their code, that all happens in a few milliseconds as you turn the key to start the engine.
Chris
Dave G - 05 Sep 2006 14:05 GMT Many thanks for all the ideas and the help. I am biting the bullet and taking it to a Pug " stealership " tomorrow as I can't afford to let this happen again. I will let you know the outcome.
Thanks again. Dave G
>> That's the old system where you could program a key into the IR >> system. The newer keys need a dealer visit. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Chris Terrytubby - 05 Sep 2006 19:17 GMT >>> Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) >>> should start the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > That's the old system where you could program a key into the IR > system. The newer keys need a dealer visit. I think you have me wrong. I was wondering if the part inside the cowling that reads the key, reads it constantly. If it is only required to start the car, then putting the plip key next to the non-plip key might send a signal to the immobiliser to disarm, thereby using the normal to turn the lock and start the engine.
 Signature Terry
A reply is always appreciated, even if it's to say I was wrong!
Dave G - 06 Sep 2006 23:00 GMT The outcome of this was the ECU was not programmed for a 2nd key. This took 20 mins to correct and cost £70. I explained that this was the first time the key had been used and the car must have been in this condition since new and this charge should be waived but the dealer was not interested. A Saab 9-5 is looking even more attractive !
Dave G
>>>> Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) >>>> should start the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >signal to the immobiliser to disarm, thereby using the normal to turn the >lock and start the engine. David Hearn - 07 Sep 2006 10:08 GMT £70 is excessive to program in a key I think! Even at their normal rates, that's going to be not far off their hourly rate for garage work - let alone an easy job like that!
I do like it when I diagnosed things right though... ;)
D
> The outcome of this was the ECU was not programmed for a 2nd key. This took > 20 mins to correct and cost £70. I explained that this was the first time the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> signal to the immobiliser to disarm, thereby using the normal to turn the >> lock and start the engine. Nom - 07 Sep 2006 11:21 GMT Here's the rub - your ECU *was* programmed for a second key, but it was the second key with the plips that was lost !
As previously discussed, your 406 came with two plip keys from the factory - but when somebody replaced the missing one with the none-plip key, they obviously didn't bother telling the car...
I'd be OUTRAGED at a £70 bill for that :) Not only have they lost your other key, but they're BILLING YOU to get the NOT AS GOOD replacement working :)
>The outcome of this was the ECU was not programmed for a 2nd key. This took >20 mins to correct and cost £70. I explained that this was the first time the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >>signal to the immobiliser to disarm, thereby using the normal to turn the >>lock and start the engine. sargasso - 07 Sep 2006 04:42 GMT You need a new key, or the key needs to be matched electronically by a Peugeot dealer. Many circumstances can result in the spare key not working to unlock the ignition, most of them of a minor nature.
> Hi Guys, Does anyone know if the spare key ( non electronic ) should start > the engine. It opens the doors and the engine turns over but displays " > electronic ant-theft device is defective " and refuses to start. The main key > ( a 2 button electronic key ) now works normally. The car is a 2003 406S HDI. > > Thanks in advance .. DaveG Ken - 09 Sep 2006 21:46 GMT > You need a new key, or the key needs to be matched electronically by a > Peugeot dealer. Many circumstances can result in the spare key not [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > > Thanks in advance .. DaveG My impression is that the handshake between the car and the key is similar to reading the microchip inserted in a dog or attached to any piece of hardware. Correct? The button system only engages the central locking. Correct?
Our dogs are all microchipped - apparently our 406 keys are too.
Our 406 came with two keys - one with a single button, one without.
This thread, like many others, is very helpful in helping me understand what is going on. For instance I have been worried about the consequences of key battery failure. Now, if I have it right, my key doesn't have a battery and my wife's (the one with the button) will still open and start the car even if the battery is flat. Only the remote locking/unlocking will be lost.
Do I have it right?
Brian - 09 Sep 2006 23:11 GMT > > You need a new key, or the key needs to be matched electronically by a > > Peugeot dealer. Many circumstances can result in the spare key not [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Do I have it right? The only thing you might have problems with would be alarm systems which are activated and deactivated by the remote plip. Opening the door with the key in the lock could in some cars cause the alarm to go off.
Phil Cook - 10 Sep 2006 14:13 GMT >> Our 406 came with two keys - one with a single button, one without. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> Do I have it right? Yes
>The only thing you might have problems with would be alarm systems which are >activated and deactivated by the remote plip. Opening the door with the key >in the lock could in some cars cause the alarm to go off. Only with the old ultrasonic system which detected motion inside the car which was armed and disarmed by the IR key and could also be disarmed with the button on the side of the steering column. The more modern Peugeots don't use that system.
The newer keys have a chip which is read by the car at startup. Either key, with or without buttons will open the door if used in the lock. Either will start the car /if/ it has been programmed into the ECU.
Some cars came with two remote locking keys some with one and a plain key.
Dave G - 10 Sep 2006 14:12 GMT Yes you are correct and it works very well providing the car knows there are 2 keys .. very expensive if it dosn't.
DaveG
>> You need a new key, or the key needs to be matched electronically by a >> Peugeot dealer. Many circumstances can result in the spare key not [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Do I have it right?
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