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Car Forum / Peugeot Cars / January 2007What Would You Do - Timing Nightmare
Evening All, For anybody that remembers i've posted a few times about ongoing noises from the timing belt region of my Peugeot 306 HDi after a nightmare scenario 10,000 miles ago when I tried to get the belt and kit done along with crank pulley. That scenario - on undoing, the crank bolt snapped and it became necessary to have it drilled out. After this the only possible replacement involved chemical metal around a narrower bolt - original thread obviously shot. Crank pulley held tight with a separate nut. No signs of this botch having caused any problems according to (new) mechanic. The (old) job complete, I took the car away but have always been concerned by some noise from that general area, chirping/ticking at idle and scraping under load. Yesterday a wapping sound from the belt cover kicked in so I took it to the garage (different one, won't get into that again). The situation i'm now in - stripped down so far to the crank pulley held in by this chemical metal, i'm told it could take some serious time to get the crank pulley off, which is required to get the lower casing off to even figure out what was causing the timing related problem - there was clearly a problem - this belt looks 70,000 miles worn after 10,000. I ask them to continue and could be looking at 10 hours labour (best guess), another timing kit and possibly a water pump. The crank setup would have to be replaced in exactly the same way again. I can ask them to reassemble it to working for total of 3 hours labour but looking at the belt its going to wear to snapping sooner rather than later and then its no good to anybody. I'm not a guy that would pass the problem on to an unsuspecting ebay bidder, attractive a solution as it sounds. This car cost me £2800 in late 2005 and is about to hit 90k. Its seen around £800 quids work in the 1.5 years since bought. This is looking like around £500 more. They seem fairly confident they can do it, but not hour many hours it will take - removing old chemical metal being one hard to predict activity, and putting in more being the other. So, what would you do? My thoughts are its not saleable unfixed, I need a car, its been very reliable generally but i'd imagine 90k is about the threshold for other issues to start occuring - clutch works fine but bites past half way - thats another 3-400 quid job if it went. One plus point - i've probably stretched this problem out to about its limits without making things any worse - if i'd had it checked 6 months ago i'd be in exactly the same position. Any input or similar experiences welcome and appreciated. Cheers, Tom. > Evening All, > [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > Cheers, > Tom. Heat it with the oxy torch & the chemical metal will fail, then helicoil the end of the crank I, personally, would have replaced the crank with a half-decent second hand unit or at least removed it and had it worked on where the repair could be done and balanced correctly. Also did you know that your crank pulley is often dynamically balanced with the crank and altering it can cause problems? I'd only expect that to make difference on a high-revving lightweight engine though I must admit.  SignatureJ __________________________________________ http://www.jbuckle.homeip.net << My personal site http://www.aoskc.com << Ainsdale Kitesurf Club > I, personally, would have replaced the crank with a half-decent second > hand [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > problems? I'd only expect that to make difference on a high-revving > lightweight engine though I must admit. Modifying the centre of it will make practically no difference, the 4th moment of inertia thing works to your advantage for once. > Evening All, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > chemical metal around a narrower bolt - original thread obviously shot. > Crank pulley held tight with a separate nut. So you mean there is a stud in the crank now rather than a bolt. > No signs of this botch having caused any problems according to (new) > mechanic. Clearly it has. The crank thread should have been fine if the bolt had been drilled out accurately and the thread cleaned up with the correct tap. Trying to do it in situ and by hand the trained chimp involved probably drilled through the side of the bolt into the crank and so wrecked it. Even so it should then have been possible to helicoil it back to the correct size. > The (old) job complete, I took the car away but have always been concerned > by some noise from that general area, chirping/ticking at idle and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > even figure out what was causing the timing related problem - there was > clearly a problem - this belt looks 70,000 miles worn after 10,000. There should be no chemical metal anywhere near the pulley unless this is a strange design. All the chemical metal should be doing is holding the stud into the crank and the pulley should fit over the crank nose. You're being told a load of bollocks here basically. It sounds like the crank nose is also buggered and the pulley is running off centre because it isn't located properly. Probably the stud in the crank holding the pulley is off centre. That's what causing rubbing noises and it will also be stretching the belt every revolution as well as stressing the tensioner. You're heading for a broken belt and a written off engine. All the valves will be destroyed if that happens, quite probably the cam too on a diesel and if you're really lucky it'll punch a hole into a piston. Get the engine stripped down by someone who actually knows what they're doing and fit a decent s/h crank or at least repair the one you have properly. SignatureDave Baker >> Evening All, >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> replacement involved chemical metal around a narrower bolt - original >> thread obviously shot. Crank pulley held tight with a separate nut. > Get the engine stripped down by someone who actually knows what they're > doing and fit a decent s/h crank or at least repair the one you have > properly. I'm with you. When the bolt broke he had a perfect crankshaft, with the remains of the bolt stuck in it. IME providing care is taken, it is usually possible to remove broken studs, bolts etc without damage to the thread. If the broken bolt couldn't be removed with the crankshaft in situ, it should have been removed, and the broken bolt drilled and bored out to thread core size with the c/s in a lathe. At least that way the OP would have finished up with an undamaged c/s, rather than the bodge he has at present. Even if the old thread in the c/s is damaged, maybe it can be bored in the lathe and a 'Helicoil' fitted to bring it back to std. If not it can probably be bored o/s and Helicoiled to accept a larger diameter bolt. Either way is a perfectly acceptable repair. Mike. > Even if the old thread in the c/s is damaged, maybe it can be bored > in the lathe and a 'Helicoil' fitted to bring it back to std. If not > it can probably be bored o/s and Helicoiled to accept a larger > diameter bolt. Either way is a perfectly acceptable repair. I would think the extra wear on the belt is due to the bodged pulley being slightly off alignment. Taking the engine out or stripping it to get the crank on it's own seems like the best way forward. Or take the easy but risky route and replace the belt every 5,000 miles? Doesn't seem like the sort of job you could do with the engine in the car to me, to get it all rebored/helicoiled dead straight. >> Even if the old thread in the c/s is damaged, maybe it can be bored >> in the lathe and a 'Helicoil' fitted to bring it back to std. If not [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > car to > me, to get it all rebored/helicoiled dead straight. It's not that bad, the bolt isn't what locates the pulley. >> Even if the old thread in the c/s is damaged, maybe it can be bored >> in the lathe and a 'Helicoil' fitted to bring it back to std. If not [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Doesn't seem like the sort of job you could do with the engine in the car > to me, to get it all rebored/helicoiled dead straight. the pulley is aligned by the exterior surfaces of the crank, not the bolt. I would look for other faults first. We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember Tom Hawley <motREVERSEDhawley@ntlworld.com> saying something like: >So, what would you do? Personally, I'd strip the engine and have the crank properly repaired. If you have to rely on a garage to do it, the cost might be a bit high though - look seriously at fitting a known good engine from a breaker and get what you can back for the old one by flogging it on ebay. SignatureDave SE6a |
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