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Car Forum / Pontiac / Pontiac Firebird / May 2005another question for ya all
oh and I forgot to thank all of you for the help on my last question.. ok how are the 350 and 305 different besides the power of course like will the intake manifold off of a 305 fit on a 350 for example cause it sure looks like it will..... > oh and I forgot to thank all of you for the help on my last question.. > > ok how are the 350 and 305 different besides the power of course like > will the intake manifold off of a 305 fit on a 350 for example cause it > sure looks like it will..... A 305 and a 350 are in the same basic engine family, as are all small block chevys. The differtances are heads, bore sizes, cranks, crank journials, mains, ect. Internially they are different, and some items DO NOT interchange (IE 350 Crank in 305, or 350 heads on 305). A 350 is a member of the 4 inch bore side of the small block family. This block can take numerios cranks to either rasie or lower the displacement via stroke. With a 305 you do not have any options to change displacement other then bore enlargement. You are limited as in which heads you can run (they are 305 specific). When it comes to externials, such as water pumps, mechanical fuel pumps, accessiories. All that stuff is interchangeable. You can even use a water pump, pulleys, and accessiories off of a 4.3 V6. Things that won't work on a 305: 400 Small Block ballencers or flywheels, some starters, 4.3 V6 distributors (since it's for a 6 banger), and some other engine year/application specific stuff. Charles "Charles Bendig" <rarepartshunter@yahoo.com> wrote in message > With a 305 you do not have any options to change displacement other > then bore enlargement. Actually there is a 335" stroker kit available for the 305, although why anyone would stroke a 305 with that small bore and restrictive head design is beyond me. -Matt- "..." matt borland wrote: > "Charles Bendig" <rarepartshunter@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -Matt- "..." And IIRC, actually stroking it is one of the only options (other than N2O, supercharger or turbo) you have. My understanding is that the casting doesn't allow for any significant increase in bore size without hitting the water jacket. Now, my understanding is that you could use the same supercharger or turbo on the 305 that you would on the 350 so you could put the forced induction on it and then later you could build a 350 to put in it. It would however have been interesting to see what one of those Coates ball valve systems could have done to a 305. It would have solved the valve shrouding problem that makes it so hard to get any real performance out of the poor little things.  SignatureCy Welch 89 RS 5.0 TBI, not running right now, but it will eventually, with a 350 if I have my way. > matt borland wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > would have solved the valve shrouding problem that makes it so hard to > get any real performance out of the poor little things. A few months ago I was talking with another local shop owner, who does work turbos. We were talking about my V-8 Typhone 'Clone' Idea. He showed me some data from where they did a 305 Twin Turbo S-10 pick up for a customer. I was pretty impressed with the numbers. That S-10 was in the 10's in the quarter mile. Yet it had been lightened a bit body wise, and uses a tube frame. Not a driver by any means, it's a trailer queen show truck with more in audio equipiment then some of you ever invested in tools. The problem with cost effective turbo systems for SBC's is they don't exsist. Gail Banks stopped making them years ago, so unless you want to spend big bucks for one, your left tying to peice it from Honda Civic kits, and buick GN parts. My idea is a simple one. Find a clean 4x4 Chevy/GMC S-10/S-15 Blazer/Jimmy. Switch the parts needed to lower it to Typhoon ride height, and handling. Convert it to AWD (a simple transfercase replacement), use a 3/4 ton Full size front diff (to handle the increased stresses). Use a 400 small block with Twin turbos (one per cylinder bank) and TPI injection. Parts costs alone will probably run over $19,000. Charles >> matt borland wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Charles Actually there is a kit out there from a company in Utah that actually replaces the muffler with a turbo. All the reports I have seen say that it works quite well. It may be far easier to adapt that unit than try something else. And I just saw an episode of horsepower tv where Banks said they were doing twin turbo stuff that would bolt onto almost any SBC. I might have to convert to TPI first, but it sounds like one or the other system may be doable. SignatureCy Welch Senior Programmer MetSYS Inc http://www.metsysinc.com >>> matt borland wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > SBC. I might have to convert to TPI first, but it sounds like one or > the other system may be doable. Any Turbo system with the impeller at that great a distance from the engine is going to be a joke. First you have to take in to account the decreased speed of the exhaust gasses the further from the engine they get. Hot Gasses flow faster then gasses that have cooled. Not to mention you will get 6 times the turbo lag with something like this. Then their is the extra weight issues. I don't care what a chassis dyno says, you will see the weight in the 1/4 mile times. Charles >>>> matt borland wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > will see the weight in the 1/4 mile times. > Charles One would think so. And this has always been the assumption. However all the reviews I have seen on this say this is not the case however take a look at this review http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/148_0502_turbo/ about it. One of the things I seem to find on this thing is that it needs no intercooler as the air pipe to the engine provides that. It also seems the turbo itself is designed for running where it is, and since the temp is lower at that distance supposedly the turbo still works fine but will last longer due to the lower temps. SignatureCy Welch Senior Programmer MetSYS Inc http://www.metsysinc.com Plus, the xfer case and ft diff is, IMO, added weight for a vehicle that's probably going to be trailer-only. You (in general) might get a little better timing out of a rwd only S10/15/Blazer... :) NOI > Any Turbo system with the impeller at that great a distance from the > engine is going to be a joke. First you have to take in to account the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > will see the weight in the 1/4 mile times. > Charles > Plus, the xfer case and ft diff is, IMO, added weight for a vehicle that's > probably going to be trailer-only. You (in general) might get a little > better timing out of a rwd only S10/15/Blazer... :) > > NOI Why would I waste the cash to build a S-10 trailer queen? Unless it's a *Race* only vehical (such as a sprint car) Ill drive the sucker on the streets. Just because some people are too pussy to drive a 9 second ride on the street doesn't mean everyone is. Charles Charles Bendig spilled my beer when they jumped on the table and proclaimed in <xwkde.1300$i1.1279@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com> > Why would I waste the cash to build a S-10 trailer queen? > Unless it's a *Race* only vehical (such as a sprint car) Ill drive the > sucker on the streets. > > Just because some people are too pussy to drive a 9 second ride on the > street doesn't mean everyone is. Wow. Really wadded your undies, eh? :) The original poster, iirc, said he wanted to trailer it... NOI > Charles Bendig spilled my beer when they jumped on the table and proclaimed > in <xwkde.1300$i1.1279@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > NOI No I mentioned in a post about a Vehical a shop owner I know built. His customer that owns it trailers it. Why? Because of ground clearance & appeariance items the truck is not legal, not safe to drive on the road. Built as a show car, Something I will not have. I beleave cars are ment to be driven, not trailer queens that only see a few miles a year at outdoor car shows. I beleave if it's close enough to street legal, and safe to drive, Do it. Im not saying drive your 900 HP car in the rain, or everyday. But just cause you run 12's in the quartmile is no reason to make a car a trailer queen. I have a Off Road truck that I trailer to and from the trails. Why? because I aint scared to break it, roll it, or smash it. Yet when im not going out trail driving with it, I drive it on the streets. Charles Charles Bendig spilled my beer when they jumped on the table and proclaimed in <Uhffe.17402$Ib4.3930@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com> > I have a Off Road truck that I trailer to and from the trails. Why? > because I aint scared to break it, roll it, or smash it. Yet when im not > going out trail driving with it, I drive it on the streets. When my dad used to do some SCCA racing, he used to prep his car at home and trailer it the 3 hours or more to the track. He did that because it saved time there, and he always was worried about having to tow it that distance home. Then one day he exploded a piston. :) NOI Crap, at least Charles had the sense to say it. Problems with remote mounted turbos do not out weight the benefits of underhood mounting, remote mounting may even mitigate some benefits of adding the turbo in the first place. Lag would be retarded even with a blow off valve. And what about oiling, return specifically. Pressure feed, gravity return? Sounds like an a.s idea to me. I've got a "tornado" carb spacer you can stick on it too, says it's good for +50 hp....... so it must be....right? matt borland wrote: > "Charles Bendig" <rarepartshunter@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -Matt- "..." Who offers this kit? Depending apon the application & costs, for cars under 3,300 pounds.... Engeeners Brain, Inventors Budget... Charles > Who offers this kit? Depending apon the application & costs, for cars >under 3,300 pounds.... Engeeners Brain, Inventors Budget... > >Charles I read an article in CHP magazine about this subject. It seems to be on the level. Link below. Getting the turbo out from under the hood looks to be a great idea. http://www.ststurbo.com/home ...Ron -- 68' Camaro RS 88' Firebird Formula 00' Mustang GT Vert > matt borland wrote: > > "Charles Bendig" <rarepartshunter@yahoo.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Charles IIRC it's an Eagle kit. 99.99% sure. -Matt- "..." "The differtances are heads, bore sizes, cranks, crank journials, mains, ect. Internially they are different, and some items DO NOT interchange (IE 350 Crank in 305, or 350 heads on 305)." Actually, the 305 and 350 share the same crank from the factory 3.48". Also, the heads from a 350 will fit just fine... the only thing to concern yourself with is valve clearance. I swapped a set of L98 heads onto my 305 a few months ago, With a 305, you'll want to to limit the intake valve size to 1.94 (which is what most 350's came with from the factory anyway), unless you buy an angled aftermarket set (expensive). A 2.02 intake valve will obviously not clear the 305's limited bore though.... > > "The differtances are heads, bore sizes, cranks, crank journials, mains, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > angled aftermarket set (expensive). A 2.02 intake valve will obviously > not clear the 305's limited bore though.... While the storke of 3.48 is the same, the Cranks are not. Also I hope you enjoy a compression ratio of about 7:1 with your 350 heads. If you used the wrong head gaskets, enjoy the damaged bores as well. Charles "Charles Bendig" <rarepartshunter@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Also I hope you enjoy a compression ratio of about 7:1 with your 350 > heads. He has a point since the 305 heads have 58cc combustion chambers and the 350 heads are most likely 76cc, or at best 64cc before milling... -Matt- "..." "He has a point since the 305 heads have 58cc combustion chambers and the 350 heads are most likely 76cc, or at best 64cc before milling..." Yeah, the L98 heads were milled. I wasn't seeking too high of a compression ratio (which is why I avoided the LB9's) because I'm supercharging it this summer.... "Also I hope you enjoy a compression ratio of about 7:1 with your 350 heads. If you used the wrong head gaskets, enjoy the damaged bores as well"... Oh my goodness, didn't mean to rain on you're parade Charles lol. Just to 'elaborate' though, I swapped a set of L98 heads onto my LO3, and tossed it's original swirl port design. The heads were cut, compression is good, and the block's bores are just fine. As for different cranks (in reference to 305 vs 350, as opposed to 1987-up one piece & 1986-down two piece, rear main seals), kindly explain yourself... > > "Also I hope you enjoy a compression ratio of about 7:1 with your 350 [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > 1987-up one piece & 1986-down two piece, rear main seals), kindly > explain yourself... First for 350 heads to clear on 305's you have to use the thicker type head gaskets. This allows extra clearance. Yes .010 makes a huge differance in such a case. As for the Cranks, not only do they carry different part numbers for the same years of 350 & 305, they are different. 305 Cranks do not have as thick throws, nor or they as strong as a 350 Crank. Yes 350 cranks come in a few flavors too (large vs small journial, forged vs cast). When it comes to making high power with a SBC 4 inch bore blocks with either type (factory or machine shop splayed) 4 bolt mains are perfered. Cost wise it costs less to build up a 350 (from a 'core' long block) then it does a 305. I have had people buy both 305 heads and 350 heads for their ideas of swaps. When things go wrong (not a problem with the parts I sold them, which were tested used replacement parts), jad these people come back to me. It's not my fault some 305 heads on some 350's will give you 15:1 compression ratio, or some 350 heads will give you as low as 6:1 on a 305. Nor is it my fault that 350 valves do not always clear the bores on 305. So with me, 305 heads are 305 heads, 350 heads are 350 heads. If I want a better then stock flow rate, I call Jegs or Summit and get a set of iron heads (dart & world products both make them). then send them to a machine shop and have the seats cut for the valves I chose, as well as have everything tested and assembled. Even new casting can fail a pressure check (rare yet does happen). Im sure if you wanted to spend the right amount of money, you could have a 305 sleaved for sixty over slug (piston) or larger. You could probably have the block and a 400 crank machined to work together, and even get some 2.02 intake valves to clear. (334 CID give or take a few). For that same amount of money Ill build a 383 with aftermaket heads, and a large (almost obseanly over cammed) bumpstick. Charles > > "Also I hope you enjoy a compression ratio of about 7:1 with your 350 > > heads. If you used the wrong head gaskets, enjoy the damaged bores as [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > a large (almost obseanly over cammed) bumpstick. > Charles guys all I wanted to know was is can I take the tune port off a 89 305 and put it on a 86 350 will the bolt holes line up ? >>>"Also I hope you enjoy a compression ratio of about 7:1 with your 350 >>>heads. If you used the wrong head gaskets, enjoy the damaged bores as [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > guys all I wanted to know was is can I take the tune port off a 89 305 and > put it on a 86 350 will the bolt holes line up ? Intake wise, Yes a 305 and a 350 use the same stuff. Yet there is a Year difference in Head type. 1986 and previous heads have a different angle to the bolt holes then 1987 and later heads, regaurdless of small block displacement. You can angle the holes out and have every thing work. Charles oops i guess i forgot to mention it was a big block. > >>>"Also I hope you enjoy a compression ratio of about 7:1 with your 350 > >>>heads. If you used the wrong head gaskets, enjoy the damaged bores as [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > You can angle the holes out and have every thing work. > Charles >oops i guess i forgot to mention it was a big block. Huh? Whacu talkin' bout Willis? 366 (truck), 396, 402, 427, 454, and 502. Which big block were you talking about? ...Ron -- 68' Camaro RS 88' Firebird Formula 00' Mustang GT Vert thats just what I have been told I'll start from the beginng I bought a 1987 firebird was supposed to have a 305 in it but when i went to replace the motor cause of a rod knock I find out it is not a 305 but a 350 so i got a new 350 motor to put in (long block) well when i went to put the oil pan on from other motor it didn't not fit cause it was not wide enough so kragen told me it was a big block...I guess I should have known from experience not to take there word for ___ .. so it is not a big block? why was pan bigger? this motor supposely not one made in mexico ..... 1989 iroc 1987 firebird > >oops i guess i forgot to mention it was a big block. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 88' Firebird Formula > 00' Mustang GT Vert > thats just what I have been told I'll start from the beginng > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 1989 iroc > 1987 firebird Whoa whoa whoa, let's take a second here. 4 bolts per valve cover = small block. (centerbolt or perimeter, regardless) More than that, most likely big block Chevy motor. If it's a big block then the small block stuff WILL NOT fit. At that point you'll just have to buy big block parts outright. Aside from distributors I can't think of anything that interchanges between big and small block Chevy. There are a couple small pieces that do, but nothing important. See what you really have, then check back with us. -Matt- "..." > > thats just what I have been told I'll start from the beginng > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > ok it only has 4 bolts for valve cover on the perimeter, then why was pan bigger? or wider then the other 350 that was in it . That and the flywheel didn't not match up to new motor "Terry" <tnt99@cox.net> wrote in message > > ok it only has 4 bolts for valve cover on the perimeter, then why was pan > bigger? or wider then the other 350 that was in it . > That and the flywheel didn't not match up to new motor There are a couple of other things you need to find out to identify this engine, and we'll need to know a little about the old engine too. One piece or two piece rear main seal? Dipstick on driver's or passenger side? 153 or 168 tooth flywheel? It sounds like at least the heads if not the whole engine in both cases are 85-earlier models. If not, then you have a parts interchange problem due to a couple of running changes in small block Chevy over the years. You might have an '87-up block in one case and a pre-'80 block in the other, or some other mismatch that just requires some extra thought to make work. There are a couple different bolt patterns on flexplates and a couple different pans. It shouldn't be this hard to figure out, but parts stores aren't what they used to be, so you end up with the added confusion of guys talking out their @ss when they don't really know the answer to your tech questions. Let me know what you find and we'll go from there. Good luck. -Matt- "..." > thats just what I have been told I'll start from the beginng > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >>88' Firebird Formula >>00' Mustang GT Vert There is no way you can confuse a Big Block with a 350 Small Block. Especially with the cylinder heads on the engine! If you do indead have a BBC, the valve lay-out it's self will look compleatly different from that of the SBC. SBC rocker arms are all in a line, both intake and exhaust. BBC are splaid, intake at one angle, exhaust at another, so the rocker arms sit staggared. Not all Small Blocks take the same oil pan. One peice rear seal blocks take a different pan then two peice rear seal block. Drivers side VS Passenger side dipstick makes a huge differance as well. Some aftermaket SBC blocks have a expanded skirt area and take either BBC, Olds, or Aftermarket ONLY oil pans. Post the casting numbers off both engines. Ill see if I can identify both for you. Charles >thats just what I have been told I'll start from the beginng > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 1989 iroc > 1987 firebird As Charles said, find and post the casting numbers if you can find them, from the heads and blocks. Many here have decoding books that at least can tell you what the parts were for at the beginning of their life. ...Ron -- 68' Camaro RS 88' Firebird Formula 00' Mustang GT Vert |
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