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Car Forum / Pontiac / Pontiac Firebird / March 2006

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bob - 21 Jan 2006 18:21 GMT
 new to the group. hi everyone !!
short and sweet --  wife bought an 80 trans am. not in good shape at
all, but does have a rebuilt motor and runs great. the p.o. had the
engine rebuilt, opted not to spend the money on the turbo and now it is
just a 301 with a cam.

 the car is quick, yet not fast. what i'm hoping to do is keep the
rebuilt engine, but change a few things like the heads, intake,
exhaust, etc. to achieve 250 to 300 horses.

not really looking to keep it stock, so a different motor is not out of
the question, but i do have a rebuilt to work off of.

 what do you guys think ?? is my current engine workable, what would
you change, or should i follow the old rule of "no replacement like
displacement " ??

 TIA   bob
RSCamaro - 21 Jan 2006 22:45 GMT
>  new to the group. hi everyone !!
>short and sweet --  wife bought an 80 trans am. not in good shape at
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>  TIA   bob

You didn't say what was put into the engine when they rebuilt it.  It
will make a difference as to what kind of hp numbers you can get out
of it if they put back the low compression pistons that work with the
turbo.  I don't know for sure that they used lower compression pistons
but that was usually the way it was done.  I personally would try and
put the turbo system back together again.  The 301ci wasn't exactly
known to be a great horse power builder even with a turbo on top of
it, but I'd do it just to have it the right way.

A good friend of mine in the 80's had a 80' or 81' Turbo Formula with
a slushbox.  It was very respectable on the street.  1st gear would
shred the tires while 2nd. and 3rd. would always catch and make a
great chirping sound.  It was loaded with most of the options
available at the time, including 4 wheel disc brakes.  Nice.  If I
could find one I'd buy it up in a heartbeat, even if I had to get rid
of my 88' Formula.

If you don't care about having the correct engine in the car then you
should look into either a larger Pontiac engine or go the corporate
route.  Both will fit.

                              ...Ron
--
68'RS Camaro
88'Formula
00'GT Mustang
bob - 22 Jan 2006 00:03 GMT
thanks for the reply ron.

 not sure about the pistons. i know who rebuilt it, mebbe they have
some paper work still ( about 7 to 8 years ago ).

 i'm just looking for some options, other than a turbo, that will work
with what i have on hand.
 it seems to me that 301 ci should be able to give me 250 workable hp
without getting too extravagant. but i don't know of a workable combo.
are the heads such that this is the limiting factor ??  seems to me
that i read something similar to that effect.
 mebbe a 350 ci (yeah- i know. so NOT stock)  would be a better route
for MY purposes.  while i do appreciate properly restored cars, i'm not
necessarily into factory restoration. this is my wife's weekend warrior
with t-tops car that she has always wanted. just want some more oomph
to live up to the trans am image :)  heck, my full size van gives it a
run for it's money.

  bob
BarracudaDesigns - 22 Jan 2006 02:33 GMT
> thanks for the reply ron.
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>    bob

Bob,

I remember reading a site that the company or guy did a buildup of a Chev
305 into a firebreather of an engine. I realize its two different type of
engines but I ll look it up and post it here. Just to give you an idea of
the work that went into it. 305s aren t known to be real screamers back then
either but it was certainly a respectable engine after the work

Bruce
sdlomi2 - 11 Mar 2006 03:13 GMT
> thanks for the reply ron.
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>   bob

   Hey, Bob, your quote "no replacement like
displacement " may be the simplest solution here.  IIRC the 301 mounts will
accept the Pontiac 350, 400, and probably even the 455 (I've done all except
the 455, as I did a lot of diesel to gas conversions; plus Firebird
v-6-to-v8 conversions), they would be a bolt-in replacement.  Plus, if you
go the 400 or 455 route, many came with 400 TH trans.  All power accessories
would be simple to move over too.  Luck to you, & enjoy your ride!  s
tricky - 24 Jan 2006 17:42 GMT
Hi Bob

I have a 350 in mine, and am thinking the easiest way to more power is to
buy a 455 and bolt it in.

I will use the 350 in a VW Kit (ferrari) that I am doing up this year
(again - posted on ramva - recently ! )

Rich

>>  new to the group. hi everyone !!
>>short and sweet --  wife bought an 80 trans am. not in good shape at
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> 88'Formula
> 00'GT Mustang
Dennis Smith - 22 Jan 2006 05:05 GMT
>  the car is quick, yet not fast. what i'm hoping to do is keep the
>rebuilt engine, but change a few things like the heads, intake,
>exhaust, etc. to achieve 250 to 300 horses.

There is not a whole lot you can do with the Pontiac 265/301 cu. in.
engines.  They are "short deck" blocks so they don't use traditional
Pontiac heads or intakes.  The 301 uses siamese intake ports which were
good for weight reduction and economy but did nothing for performance.

Porting the 301 heads and intake, a better cam and bumping up the
compression about all you can do.

Due to the intake design they run out of breath around 4,000 RPM.

Signature

    _________________________________________________________________
    Dennis Smith                            

    -1971 Trans Am - 455 H.O. - M21 4speed - Cameo white/blue stripe-
     < http://ps2page.tripod.com/my71ta/tapage.html >  
    -1973 Trans Am - 455 - TH400 auto - Buccaneer red-
    -1984 Trans Am - 5.0 L - TH700R4 auto - Royal blue/silver aero-
    _________________________________________________________________

FBR - 22 Jan 2006 05:32 GMT
>   new to the group. hi everyone !!
> short and sweet --  wife bought an 80 trans am. not in good shape at
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>   TIA   bob

First I'd re-tune/fiddle with the advance curve on the HEI to let the cam
work better. You didn't mention if it was carbed or had the TB FI system,
both have things that can be tuned/tweaked.  Exhaust, bigger cats or a good
cat back system.  The numbers you want are easily attainable for a price tag
that won't set your wallet on fire.
BDK - 22 Jan 2006 19:10 GMT
>   new to the group. hi everyone !!
> short and sweet --  wife bought an 80 trans am. not in good shape at
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>   TIA   bob

I can't really think of any reason to keep the 301, any decent 350 would
be so much better, and would be much easier/cheaper to get decent parts
for. A T/A is, weight wise, a tank. The 49 cubes of a 350 would be a
huge help dragging it around. Just about any GM motor ever made will
fit, the hood scoop is the main problem with the swaps. I saw a totally
stock looking T/A bout 15 years ago with a Buick 455 in it. The hood
scoop was home cast and looked like GM had made it. That thing was great
on the street..as good or better than my car.

A friend had a 403 Olds in his 79, like I did, and when it blew up, he
put a 454 crate motor, and a turbo 400 in it. It was a pretty simple
swap. Ran about .3 second quicker than my intaked, cammed, head ported,
etc 403 T/A did, but my car was a much nicer street drive. That thing
had amazing off idle throttle response, his car had to be revved pretty
high to equal my car's 0-60 or so shots, and I got 3 MPG better than he
did. Side by side at the track, with both cars having 3.51 gears, we
both had problems launching, but if we both hooked up, my car would
barely beat his car to the 1/8 mile, but he would drive around me, and
really start to pull away as we came up to the finish line.

I was a dope to sell it, a Vegas car with no rust, all it needed was new
paint, carpet, and seat belts. It wouldn't have hurt to rehang the front
quarters too.

But I wanted an Iroc Camaro..so I was stupid

BDK
bob - 23 Jan 2006 03:40 GMT
 you guys have been a great help in verifying bits and pieces of info
i've been able to collect. mebbe start with a 350 and go from there.

 any motor to trans mating problems, or should it be a direct bolt up
??

 would the motor mounts be the same ( probably new ones would be in
order ) ??

 tia    bob
BDK - 23 Jan 2006 04:16 GMT
>   you guys have been a great help in verifying bits and pieces of info
> i've been able to collect. mebbe start with a 350 and go from there.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>   tia    bob

I think the trans has to be changed, or an adaptor or something might be
needed, I don't really know. The motor mounts would have to be changed,
and at 25+ years old, it would be a good thing anyway.

BDK
news - 25 Jan 2006 05:19 GMT
>   new to the group. hi everyone !!
> short and sweet --  wife bought an 80 trans am. not in good shape at
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>   TIA   bob

The 301... well... sucks.
No torque down low, no power up high.
I don't even know if you can get headers for 'em.

My $.02 (and I have an 80 TA project car that had a 301) is either a 350
or 400 or 455 Pontiac V8, or make it a Camaro under the hood with a 350
Chevy.  The 350 Chevy is easier and cheaper to find, but you need to do
more fiddling to get it in.  Example -> the Pontiac and Chevy V8
bellhousing bolt pattern are different, so your TH350 won't bolt up to a
Chevy without an adapter.  (Unless you've got a dual bolt pattern
transmission, they do exist, but you probably don't.)

Basically, the problem is the 301 was a "dead end" motor - not a lot of
power in stock form, and virtually zero aftermarket support, and not a
very strong foundation either - it was a "lightweight" version of the
regular Pontiac designed to shave some weight, but at the expense of
durability at higher than stock power levels.

heck, for $1600 you can get a 290HP 350 Chevy from Summit.  Brand new.

I do have to add that if you go with any other engine, start hunting
ebay for the correct shaker, or be prepared to mod yours... each engine
used in a second gen TA uses it's own shaker... and they're sometimes
different year to year - the styling and the opening changed as well.

You could also consider a set of steep gears if you want to keep the
301... it'll get you moving off the line a lot better at the expense of
wrecking what fuel "economy" you're already getting.

I'm holding out for a 455 for mine, but at the rate it's going, there
won't be any gas left when I finally get it back together.  My dirt
track Camaro sucks back all the time and money now...

Ray
Jason - 26 Jan 2006 06:01 GMT
i my self have another 1980 firebird im working on my own this time the
last one i did with a stock 301 i was able to get 425hp  at the real
wheels all i did was   new headers  3 inch flowmasters  new fule and
oil pump msd box mallory distrubter tayler plug wires and a holly 650
dubble pumper. im planing to put a cam n lifters in mine but the hole
upgrade rebuilding it new seals paint n all came to $1600 canadian
BarracudaDesigns - 26 Jan 2006 10:38 GMT
> i my self have another 1980 firebird im working on my own this time the
> last one i did with a stock 301 i was able to get 425hp  at the real
> wheels all i did was   new headers  3 inch flowmasters  new fule and
> oil pump msd box mallory distrubter tayler plug wires and a holly 650
> dubble pumper. im planing to put a cam n lifters in mine but the hole
> upgrade rebuilding it new seals paint n all came to $1600 canadian

425 from a 301 by changing the exhaust, pumps and the ignition?? I m
seriously doubting that, sorry. Without changing cams intakes and some other
items, you just wont get much HP increases with what you changed. Could be
wrong, but doubt it.
Charles Bendig - 26 Jan 2006 11:26 GMT
>>i my self have another 1980 firebird im working on my own this time the
>>last one i did with a stock 301 i was able to get 425hp  at the real
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> items, you just wont get much HP increases with what you changed. Could be
> wrong, but doubt it.

    He must be giong by advertised possible HP. Elsewise he's converting
the numbers in to the fruittie metric rating.
Charles
BarracudaDesigns - 26 Jan 2006 12:03 GMT
> >>i my self have another 1980 firebird im working on my own this time the
> >>last one i did with a stock 301 i was able to get 425hp  at the real
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> the numbers in to the fruittie metric rating.
> Charles

Must be, because to add , hmmm what about 275 hp to a stock 301 by adding
that stuff. Sheesh if it was that easy, we d all be running mega hp machines
for little or no money
Charles Bendig - 26 Jan 2006 18:25 GMT
>>>>i my self have another 1980 firebird im working on my own this time the
>>>>last one i did with a stock 301 i was able to get 425hp  at the real
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> that stuff. Sheesh if it was that easy, we d all be running mega hp machines
> for little or no money

    What is the Stock Rating for 79 to 81 F-car Pontiac 301's with either
N/A single 4BBL or Turbo Charged?

    Although we know it's not a turbo car running "headers". He aint got
that kind of money in that engine.
Charles
BarracudaDesigns - 26 Jan 2006 18:51 GMT
> >>>>i my self have another 1980 firebird im working on my own this time the
> >>>>last one i did with a stock 301 i was able to get 425hp  at the real
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> that kind of money in that engine.
> Charles

I believe and dont totally quote me but the numbers kicked around for a
naturally aspirated 301 engine code YN or Xn was about 150 and for the turbo
code YL was 210. Different places give small differences in numbers.  `So to
get an additional 325 hp on a stock engine, lol sure didnt come from a
distributor spark plugs and wires and so on.

Bruce
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar - 26 Jan 2006 19:14 GMT
> I believe and dont totally quote me but the numbers kicked around for a
> naturally aspirated 301 engine code YN or Xn was about 150 and for the turbo
> code YL was 210. Different places give small differences in numbers.  `So to
> get an additional 325 hp on a stock engine, lol sure didnt come from a
> distributor spark plugs and wires and so on.

Don't forget, each decal on the window is worth at least 75hp.  Just ask
the Honda guys.  ;)

The basic bolt ons may have gotten him from 210 up to 240, but by the time
you factor in the racing stripes, JEGS stickers, etc, you're up to at
least 500hp.

John.
BarracudaDesigns - 26 Jan 2006 19:19 GMT
> > I believe and dont totally quote me but the numbers kicked around for a
> > naturally aspirated 301 engine code YN or Xn was about 150 and for the turbo
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> John.

lol, yep my point exactly. You know you get to a certain point and then you
fight for every inch of power you can find and then someone comes along and
gets an extra 275 hp for basically nothing. I must be doing something wrong
lol

Bruce
crazy dave - 26 Jan 2006 22:47 GMT
>> > I believe and dont totally quote me but the numbers kicked around for a
>> > naturally aspirated 301 engine code YN or Xn was about 150 and for the
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Bruce

When I ran my aluminum head, solid flat tappet cam 455 the dyno showed 418
at the rear wheels, ET calculator shows around 430 hp. If I can get the same
power out of a 301 for a lot less money I'm giving my 455 away and building
a 301.

Dave
Charles Bendig - 27 Jan 2006 01:04 GMT
>>>>I believe and dont totally quote me but the numbers kicked around for a
>>>>naturally aspirated 301 engine code YN or Xn was about 150 and for the
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Dave

    Sheeznitz ifizakan get that kinda power out of a 301, Ill buy another
79 Buick Lesabra 2 douur. Ill find a odd bal mid-70's Chevelle/malibu
classic set of gears that is numarically lower then 2.73 (such as 2.64),
put a 4L80 behind that "Bad Ladd" 301, and cruise down the highway In
Style at 160 MPH while getting 25 MPG, Homey'z.

Charles
(Ya'll know when I start postin in eubonics, aint none of that post ever
gonna happen)
BarracudaDesigns - 27 Jan 2006 10:24 GMT
> >>>>I believe and dont totally quote me but the numbers kicked around for a
> >>>>naturally aspirated 301 engine code YN or Xn was about 150 and for the
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> (Ya'll know when I start postin in eubonics, aint none of that post ever
> gonna happen)

Well maybe its your american air, hmmmm time for me to haul azzzzz outta
canada so I can get me a 301 with new plugs and go racing for pinks. The
racers will never know what hit'em

Bruce
KITTvsKARR - 27 Jan 2006 05:04 GMT
"If I can get the same power out of a 301 for a lot less money I'm giving
my 455 away and building a 301."

When you do.. I'll be there waiting to take it off your hands.. <grin>

-Geno
<Insert 3 cars here>
ray - 30 Jan 2006 09:48 GMT
>>>>I believe and dont totally quote me but the numbers kicked around for a
>>>>naturally aspirated 301 engine code YN or Xn was about 150 and for the
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Dave

and hey, don't forget - the 301 is a lot lighter than your 455, so
you're gonna pick up another second right there.  I've got a 500hp stock
301 that just needs a bit of work (it's blowed up), and I'll take your
slow 455 in trade. ;)

Ray
Z24PODS says... "Click Here" - 08 Feb 2006 05:37 GMT
LMAO... You guys are killin' me.!!! :-)  How many horses do I get added
to my 200hp stock camaro with racing stripes and a wax job.???
Charles Bendig - 27 Jan 2006 00:56 GMT
>>>>>>i my self have another 1980 firebird im working on my own this time
>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> Bruce

    Even if he had a Turbo, those mods would not make up 215 HP. Even with
the waste gate wide open, and a larger volume turbo on it.

    It's the internet where HP figures tripple when you log on, and your
johnson grows larger then peter north's.
Charles
 
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