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Car Forum / Pontiac / Pontiac Firebird / May 200767 Camaro PG to Muncie conversion questions
OK, I did some thinking and decided that since I'm over cutting one hole in the floor for a TH350 shifter, I might as well go for what I really want anyway which is a 4-speed Muncie to replace the old Powerglide. I now have a column-shift with the "rare" (but not desirable?) bench seat. I queried this group on the TH350 conversion and got some good feedback, so I'm hoping that someone has done the PG to 4-speed conversion and can help me decide if that's what I should do. I've found a lot of scattered information on the subject, but no real clear-cut "guide", so here it goes. I'd obviously need to chop a hole in the floor for a shifter and another for the clutch. Does anyone know if the shifter will be OK with the bench seat? I'm reading mixed information about the crossmember and driveshaft for this swap. Has anyone done it and how much different in size/mounting locations is the Muncie compared to the PG? If anyone has done it or knows a link, is there some complete list of EVERYTHING that would be needed to complete the swap? So far I've got the tranny, shifter, clutch kit, clutch fork, pedal assemblies, and linkage kit. Classic Industries sells the linkage kit for $95 that appears to have everything to connect your foot to the clutch, but I'd feel better knowing someone who has actually done it, as you always seem to have a few little brackets here and there that need purchased as well to do it right. I've been carefully making modifications to it for the past 4 years, but nothing really drastic like this. I have rebuilt the engine, put a different cam in it, headers, dual Flowmasters, etc. Basically stuff that would be REALLY easy to put back to bone stock if I wanted to. I figure it's already got new fenders and 1/4 panels, so it's not really "original" anymore anyway. Worst case I'd have to plug a couple holes and drop the PG back in to truly bring it back to where it's at now, although I'd probably never do that, but I'm still keeping all the original stuff anyway. I wouldn't even cut the driveshaft either if it doesn't work, I'd buy another one to chop so it would all go back in. Thanks in advance for your help, Doomie >OK, I did some thinking and decided that since I'm over cutting one hole in >the floor for a TH350 shifter, I might as well go for what I really want >anyway which is a 4-speed Muncie to replace the old Powerglide. I now have >a column-shift with the "rare" (but not desirable?) bench seat. You don't have to cut a large hole in the floor if you are only one large enough to fit a cable through to mount to the new shifter. The hole for the standard shifter will be much larger. >I queried this group on the TH350 conversion and got some good feedback, so >I'm hoping that someone has done the PG to 4-speed conversion and can help >me decide if that's what I should do. I've found a lot of scattered >information on the subject, but no real clear-cut "guide", so here it goes. I have pretty much this same conversion on my present 68' except I have a T-10 out of a Corvette which means little since they are practically the same units. The 67' Camaro Factory Assembly Manual is invaluable for doing any kind of swap on your car since everything that was an option is in the book. >I'd obviously need to chop a hole in the floor for a shifter and another for >the clutch. Does anyone know if the shifter will be OK with the bench seat? I went out and took a quick measurement from where the gas pedal mounts to where reverse and 4th gears set. It comes out around 22" to 24" back from the gas pedal mount. The shifter i have is from a 63' Corvette which may be different than what you will end up with. The shifter post is about 4" in front of my bucket seats and the seats are all the way back. There seems to be plenty of room from my perspective on the fit for a bench seat but again you may need a different handle to make 2nd and 4th gears depending on how much and fast that the handle rakes back. >I'm reading mixed information about the crossmember and driveshaft for this >swap. Has anyone done it and how much different in size/mounting locations >is the Muncie compared to the PG? AFAIK there were only 2 tranny crossmembers for the first gen cars, the flat style one which is the only one that I've ever had the opportunity to use and the tubular looking TH400 crossmember. >If anyone has done it or knows a link, is there some complete list of >EVERYTHING that would be needed to complete the swap? So far I've got the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >someone who has actually done it, as you always seem to have a few little >brackets here and there that need purchased as well to do it right. Don't forget the clutch rod seal/grommet that is mounted on the firewall and the bell housing fork seal/grommet. >I've been carefully making modifications to it for the past 4 years, but >nothing really drastic like this. I have rebuilt the engine, put a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >wouldn't even cut the driveshaft either if it doesn't work, I'd buy another >one to chop so it would all go back in. The driveshaft should be ok. Make sure to use the correct yoke for the new transmission. Also use a new transmission mount. A polyurethane mount is inexpensive and better than a rubber one. ...Ron >Thanks in advance for your help, >Doomie -- 68' RS Camaro 88' Formula Bird http://www.frontiernet.net/~rscamero Some are wise and some are otherwise Ron, thanks again for the GREAT hands-on information. Since you've actually done BOTH conversions that I'm trying to decide on now, which one did you like better? My daily driver is a big block Suburban and I've gotten rid of all my other junk, so my only "toy" car left is the Camaro. I love shifting gears, so that's why I started looking towards the 4-speed in the first place. I'm not concerned with consistent 1/4 mile times or anything, just a fun cruiser to enjoy in the summer. My biggest fear is cobbing something up so bad that it's just all wrong, I had a '68 Corvette convertible I bought that way and it was so far gone that after spending a fortune on things such as complete pully assemblies, I punted and sold it. It had the wrong clutch fork as well that poked through the fiberglass floor when you pushed the clutch pedal, but I don't even want to get into that story now! I basically want a "clean" finished product, which should be easy with the TH350, and I THINK it would also be possible with the 4-speed, but I've never done any types of swaps like that before. I went out and measured and it looks like 24" is just fine, that's also 4" away from the bench seat, and it's almost all the way back where I drive it. Looking at the seat, I don't think shifting it will be a problem at all, it's got such a low profile that I can't imagine anything coming close to it as long as it mounts out of the way, which it looks like that won't be a problem either. For the 4-speeds, are there any models to stay away from or any that would be great picks? I was just looking at a Muncie because it was offered as an option that year, but I'm not stuck on it if there's a better choice or more bang for the buck somewhere else. >Ron, thanks again for the GREAT hands-on information. Since you've actually >done BOTH conversions that I'm trying to decide on now, which one did you >like better? <snip> Either one is good. For the best bang for the buck, the 4 speed is my choice. Although my 2 speed to 3 speed change was decent, I needed more gear and a looser converter for the engine that is in the car. >For the 4-speeds, are there any models to stay away from or any that would >be great picks? I was just looking at a Muncie because it was offered as an >option that year, but I'm not stuck on it if there's a better choice or more >bang for the buck somewhere else. <snip> I try to stay away from the Saginaw trannies, they were usually put in lower optioned cars. Not to say that they are bad or anything, I just am rather hard on transmissions. T-10, Super T-10, M-20, M-21, and M-22 are all good choices. Richmond and Tremec make some of the best aftermarket transmissions out there if you have a little extra cash. ...Ron -- 68' RS Camaro 88' Formula Bird http://www.frontiernet.net/~rscamero Some are wise and some are otherwise I agree with the advice about staying away from the Saginaw. I've destroyed several of them in my 68 camaro. A good muncie or T-10 is the way to go. They cost a little more initially but save you money with their longevity. Good luck. Jeff > >Ron, thanks again for the GREAT hands-on information. Since you've actually > >done BOTH conversions that I'm trying to decide on now, which one did you [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Some are wise and some are otherwise What converter did you use in your TH350 setup? I was thinking a 2400 advertised-range converter for mine. It's a stock 327 that's been rebuilt with a 327/350HP Corvette cam and I've got 2.73 posi gears. Right now it bogs horribly with the stock PG and stock converter. It's going to be mostly street-driven, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't get up and go either! If I could run in the 13's with it, I'd be more than pleased, so I don't have unrealistic expectations there for what I have to work with. I did see a Nova on eBay that was from the factory with a 4-speed floor shift and bench seat. It was pretty ugly!!! Maybe the seat was pushed up all the way or something, but the boot looked like it was almost touching the seat, or even under it? That is my biggest fear with the manual, that it won't fit right with the bench seat or it will be more work than fun to work around getting it shifted. I guess I can always find some buckets to put in there if I had to though... > >Ron, thanks again for the GREAT hands-on information. Since you've actually > >done BOTH conversions that I'm trying to decide on now, which one did you [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Some are wise and some are otherwise >What converter did you use in your TH350 setup? I was thinking a 2400 >advertised-range converter for mine. It's a stock 327 that's been rebuilt [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >either! If I could run in the 13's with it, I'd be more than pleased, so I >don't have unrealistic expectations there for what I have to work with. I had the standard stall converter in both but my cam was a Competition Cams 292H which has more lump than most and as such had a terrible low end acceleration. From 25 MPH up though she would scream. I'll assume that the cam could do with a little more stall in your application but you may want to only go 500 or so rpms over stock to start with which should be in the 2,000 to 2,100 range. If that is not enough then try for a higher stall. It's all trial and error unless you can find someone who has the same driveline as you who can offer advice. ...Ron -- 68' RS Camaro 88' Formula Bird http://www.frontiernet.net/~rscamero Some are wise and some are otherwise <snip> > Does anyone know if the shifter will be OK with the bench seat? Yes, '67 or '68 Camaros could be ordered this way. Here's a link with a picture of a factory Strato backed bench seat with floor mounted four speed. http://www.familyclassiccars.com/details.html?vid=9018 Nice find!!!! That doesn't look bad at all, nothing like the Nova I saw. I looked all over for a picture but came up empty. Heck, it's hard enough finding a bench seat, let alone a floor-shift manual w/ bench! > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://www.familyclassiccars.com/details.html?vid=9018 >OK, I did some thinking and decided that since I'm over cutting one hole in >the floor for a TH350 shifter, I might as well go for what I really want [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >Thanks in advance for your help, >Doomie Hey Doomie I'm new to the site and was just surfing when I found this, and felt I needed to reply to your question to make your life easier even though it's been replied to already. I have a 67 camaro with a 327 and me and a friend just done a turbo 350 swap to a M-21 4-speed muncie. I LOVE IT! Anyway, it sounds it sounds like you have all your clutch linkage kit hardware and so on. Personally it was an easy swap to me especially with a friend helping. Everything went A-ok. The driveshaft fit perfectly, crossmemeber worked and I didn't have to cut a bigger hole in the floor. Just make sure you have a camaro shifter because it bends around to accomodate the hole in the floor. Another thing is make sure you have new body bushings in your car because if you dont your clutch fork will tear into your firewall when your press the pedal and I had to find that out the hard way. Another thing is I was told by every car person alive even the camaro central people that my 11' bellhousing out of a 83 camaro wouldn't work on my car and it's fits perfectly. No problems. Another thing I had to pull my transmission back out which is a whole lot easier than the automatic considering you don't have to take off the bellhousing but anyway, the transmission had to be taken apart and have a gasket kit put on it because it leaked real bad after I drove it. So personally I would take it to a good trustworhty transmission shop and let them reseal the transmission and maybe check out the guts for ya. See ya Josh |
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