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Car Forum / Pontiac / Pontiac Firebird / June 2004Will I trash my fuel injectors if I do this?
To all, I'm having a low rpm missing/accel surging problem with my 94 Z28 with 135k. I have replaced the opti, plugs and wires. I am now thinking that I have a fuel injector problem. I want to do a balance test. I have a power supply capable of supplying the proper voltage and current, but won't pulse the injector. I am worried that the injector cannot take 100% duty cycle long enough to get a pressure reading without frying. Maybe 10 secs would be enough to read the guage. Am I fooling myself thinking that I can do this without frying the injector? Will I get a proper reading? Should I bite the bullet and take it to the mechanic to do this test? you've replaced the entire optispark, plugs, and wires..... but you haven't replaced your coil pack?? i would definately try replacing your coil pack before you mess with the injectors. MSD and Moroso sells a direct replacement high performance coil for your car. give it a shot. jack > To all, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Should I bite the bullet and take it to the mechanic to do this test? > you've replaced the entire optispark, plugs, and wires..... but you haven't > replaced your coil pack?? i would definately try replacing your coil pack [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.703 / Virus Database: 459 - Release Date: 6/10/2004 Sorry, forgot to list the coil and ECM in my grocery list. Got Oil in the Opti and fried the whole system. It's all new electrically. hmmmmm.... checked the fuel pressure or regulator?? anyways, heres what i would do. i would go ahead and do the test. if you do happen to fry the injectors then you have an excuse to go ahead and buy some bigger injectors like maybe some 28 or 30lb injectors. you can just about find them all day long on ebay for a really good price. or you can swallow your pride and take it to the mechanics shop =( keep us posted. jack > > you've replaced the entire optispark, plugs, and wires..... but you haven't > > replaced your coil pack?? i would definately try replacing your coil pack [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Sorry, forgot to list the coil and ECM in my grocery list. Got Oil in > the Opti and fried the whole system. It's all new electrically. > hmmmmm.... checked the fuel pressure or regulator?? anyways, heres what i > would do. i would go ahead and do the test. if you do happen to fry the [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.703 / Virus Database: 459 - Release Date: 6/10/2004 Damn...beat me to it. Was going to suggest hooking fuel pressure gauge up to shroder valve and checking fuel pressure. (Also might consider compression testing.)  SignatureMartin '01 Formula - MTI Air Box Lid, K&N Filter, Hurst-6, SLP Cold Air Induction & Smooth Intake Bellow Corsa Catback w/Premium Tips '83 V45 Magna > > hmmmmm.... checked the fuel pressure or regulator?? anyways, heres what i > > would do. i would go ahead and do the test. if you do happen to fry the [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > up to shroder valve and checking fuel pressure. (Also might consider > compression testing.) SchRODER? SchRADER? >>>hmmmmm.... checked the fuel pressure or regulator?? anyways, heres what > [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > SchRODER? > SchRADER? Oh bleh....it's been a long week. I've even been known to call it a schrader valve in my tongue tied moments. :p Balls and scrotum? SignatureMartin '01 Formula - MTI Air Box Lid, K&N Filter, Hurst-6, SLP Cold Air Induction & Smooth Intake Bellow Corsa Catback w/Premium Tips '83 V45 Magna OTC makes a power supply, that pulses at three different rates. I think the cost is 450.00. I'd buy that before toasting the injectors. The problem would be most likely a leaking injector, not a dead one, because a dead or intermittently firing injector would cause a miss. look towards your fuel pressure bleeding off in a given period of time, like 24 hours, also look at the Throttle Position Sensor as a possibility in your case. Refinish King > > you've replaced the entire optispark, plugs, and wires..... but you haven't > > replaced your coil pack?? i would definately try replacing your coil pack [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Sorry, forgot to list the coil and ECM in my grocery list. Got Oil in > the Opti and fried the whole system. It's all new electrically. why would you spend $450 on a tool to test the injectors for just a one time use when you can upgrade and replace the injectors for the same price if not and probably cheaper.... just my 2 cents.... oh you know what else, i just remembered this..... in my 95 LT1 Vette i had a proble with it surging one time. it ran like sh.t and i didn't know what to do. first diagnosis i did was use a paper clip to short out the diagnostics port under the dash and shoot the trouble codes on my dash. OBD1 stands for on board diagnostics 1 so YOU can run a simple diagnostic scan without going to a shop. i had to do a little research on how the papler clip trick worked for my car (probably different for your) but all i had to do was put one end of the paper clip into like hole #4 and the other in #12 or something like that to get my trouble codes to appear on the dash. anyway, it turned out to be a falty coolant temperature sensor. apparrantly, if the coolant sensor is disconnected the car runs like crap. i would look into this as a problem as well. when i was having this problem, the car would jerk like it had a miss from hell... something so simple to cause so much trouble. either get a trouble code reader or find out how to do it yourself with a paperclip. why didn't i think of this before?? jack > OTC makes a power supply, > that pulses at three different rates. I think the cost is 450.00. I'd buy [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > Sorry, forgot to list the coil and ECM in my grocery list. Got Oil in > > the Opti and fried the whole system. It's all new electrically. > why would you spend $450 on a tool to test the injectors for just a one time > use when you can upgrade and replace the injectors for the same price if not [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > jack Who would pay $450 for a tester? Most Professional repair people. One of my Next major purchases is going to be a used Snap-On MT2500. Probably in the $500 to $700. New they start off around $2000. My Business Partner has a OBD-1 OTC Pathfinder 2000. You just don't understand what your missing with your paper clip, and flashing SES light. OBD-1 does more then just tell you their is a problem and what circut has it. It will give you read outs from the sensors, as the ECM reads them. The data from it can help you find the problem, instead of making wild guesses as to whats wrong. But be my guest, keep using your paper clip. Charles I made a typo anyway! the injector tester is about $50.00! Another reason to shove this keyboard up someone's a.s! It doesn't send out a strong enough signal. I should have bought the Microsoft! Refinish King > > why would you spend $450 on a tool to test the injectors for just a one > time [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > But be my guest, keep using your paper clip. > Charles You'd be better off buying the OTC from a MAC tools dealer! The Snap On 2500 can't cycle solenoids or actuate any servos. I'm getting the Genesis, with the 4 channel lab scope, the 5 gas analyzer and the GM reprogramming module. The Snap On Modis doesn't even offer the GM reprogramming, and OTC offers Chrysler reprogramming too. OTC owns Kent Moore, and MPSI now. So you have factory GM and Chrysler. Soon they are buying Hickock, so you will have Ford too! Snap On Won't have the ability to do factory advanced testing, like OTC already does, and OTC does air bags. Refinish King > > why would you spend $450 on a tool to test the injectors for just a one > time [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > But be my guest, keep using your paper clip. > Charles > You'd be better off buying the OTC from a MAC tools dealer! > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Refinish King More then likely I will buy a used unit. I was looking at used OTC Genesis's on Ebay tonight Average was $100 to $250 more then used MT2500's. The reason I was going to go with the MT2500 was I had used one before. When I did some work for/out of T&J automotive. That was back in late 2001 thru mid 2002. With stuff like diagnostic equipment I tend to go with stuff I have seen others use, or tried out my self. In the case of OTC, I have used a few of their older scan tools before and liked them. Charles I have the 4000 enhanced, I can do everything a MT2500 does, and more. Like all I mentioned. Snap On had every brainwashed into thinking they were going to be the number one electronics diagnostic company in the world. In the 80's through 90's. That stopped right at the end of the 90's when Sperry/SPX started buying everything Snap On couldn't afford, like FMC, and Coats. Now with Hickock and A few around the corner, they'll be the number one American OEM diagnostics. They make the GM Tech 2. I won't touch Snap On's diagnostics scanners and have helped many shops that use them with my old OTC. Refinish King > > You'd be better off buying the OTC from a MAC tools dealer! > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > used a few of their older scan tools before and liked them. > Charles Charles, a guy trying to fix is own car isn't a professional who is going to invest all that cash in equipment. Paying $450 for a tool that is needed 1 time is a waste. And certainly buying a scanner that starts at $2,000 new when you only occasionally work on your own car is equally wasteful. So yeah, for a pro who will get lots of use it's probably a good idea, but clearly that wasn't his situation. Probably a $300 scanning tool is better than a paper clip, but that isn't to say the paper clip thing is completely worthless. >> why would you spend $450 on a tool to test the injectors for just a one >time [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > But be my guest, keep using your paper clip. >Charles ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and including the underscore in my email reply header. SgtSilicon spilled my beer when they jumped on the table and proclaimed in <40ccd945.13923515@news.charter.net> > Charles, a guy trying to fix is own car isn't a professional who is > going to invest all that cash in equipment. Paying $450 for a tool [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > a $300 scanning tool is better than a paper clip, but that isn't to > say the paper clip thing is completely worthless. If it's OBDII, you really don't want to use a paperclip. :) Joe's suggestion about renting the scanner is probably the best one, IMO. NOI > Charles, a guy trying to fix is own car isn't a professional who is > going to invest all that cash in equipment. Paying $450 for a tool [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > a $300 scanning tool is better than a paper clip, but that isn't to > say the paper clip thing is completely worthless. The poster said :"who would" (lose quote). So I proceeded to tell them. A paper clip in an ALDL or a cheep shunt with no fuse or breaker is an idiotic idea. "code readers" are less then $40 and will never cause any damage. Idoits and inbreads are always looking for a short cut. If you don't have the proper tools to diagonse & repair a vehical. Don't do it, that simple. If you have to rent a tool more then three times, you should buy it. If you own a 1995 Corvette and are too cheep to have someone read your OBD-1 and give you a print out, your to f.cking retarded to own the car. BTW: If you value the tools I own at the current replacement value, I have well in excess of $30K's worth. With out the amount I own I would not attempt any auto repair. Charles thanks a lot for calling me a f.cking retard.... i really appreciate that. a.shole!! theres nothing wrong with using the paper clip as i did in the Vette. you simply short out 2 prongs and turn the key on, then my digital speedometer gave me a 1 letter and 2 number code that i looked up in the repair manual. it showed a coolant sensor problem. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do this sh.t. replaced the sensor, no more problems. i do appologize that i don't let others do my work for me and then take the credit. i am a REAL enthusiast. i do my own work. > "SgtSilicon" <foolspicedham_melbo_jon@hotmail.com> wrote in > > Idoits and inbreads are always looking for a short cut. If you don't > have the proper tools to diagonse & repair a vehical. Don't do it, that > simple. If you have to rent a tool more then three times, you should buy it. > If you own a 1995 Corvette and are too cheep to have someone read your OBD-1 > and give you a print out, your to f.cking retarded to own the car. > thanks a lot for calling me a f.cking retard.... i really appreciate that. > a.shole!! theres nothing wrong with using the paper clip as i did in the [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.705 / Virus Database: 461 - Release Date: 6/12/2004 Mmmm....didn't think you could short the OBD-II. But, I wish you luck. I think your options have been laid out; you need to decide which one(s) to exercise. Tah. SignatureMartin '01 Formula - MTI Air Box Lid, K&N Filter, Hurst-6, SLP Cold Air Induction & Smooth Intake Bellow Corsa Catback w/Premium Tips '83 V45 Magna GLK9MM spilled my beer when they jumped on the table and proclaimed in <2B9zc.20640$Qv1.5786@lakeread03> > Mmmm....didn't think you could short the OBD-II. You can't. :) > But, I wish you luck. I think your options have been laid out; you need > to decide which one(s) to exercise. Agreed... NOI The jumpering of pins I think is just for the ODB-1. I would NEVER try it unless I knew the jumpering was legit. Sounds like it is though at least for what the guy had. >> thanks a lot for calling me a f.cking retard.... i really appreciate that. >> a.shole!! theres nothing wrong with using the paper clip as i did in the [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >Tah. ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and including the underscore in my email reply header. >Subject: Re: Will I trash my fuel injectors if I do this? >From: foolspicedham_melbo_jon@hotmail.com (SgtSilicon) [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and >including the underscore in my email reply header. You can jumper on the ALDL on OBDI with a paper clip or a tool (there are several) and count the check engine light flashes for codes. If you want to sit there like an a.shole and do that, your perogative. LOL. I'll be with the professional crew and knowing WHY the light is on. Again, the code tells you nothing but what circuit MIGHT be affected. Example: You can get a code for an O2 sensor circuit. Doesn't mean the O2 sensor is bad. It means that the sensor is detecting whatever that condition is (lean/rich, etc). Something ELSE is likely causing this problem. Change the sensor and newsflash, you still have the problem. That's why a scanner is important. It is a diagnostic tool. You could enrich the mixture and watch the reaction of the O2 sensor and watch it switch---this could help confirm the sensor is fine and avoid throwing parts (and money) at the problem. Joe--ASE Certified Parts Specialist & 10th Ann.Club Tech Director '80 Carousel Red Turbo T/A, 26k orig. '79 "Y89" 400/4 speed 10th Ann. T/A, 57k orig '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... '80 T/A project car... >> thanks a lot for calling me a f.cking retard.... i really appreciate >> that. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Tah. I wasn't gonna' say anything, but my post has gotten THREE (count 'em THREE) replies. For those that know me better, my "Mmmm....didn't think you could short the OBD-II." statement was a sly remark. Not a question. Whatever. No worries. Martin '01 Formula - MTI Air Box Lid, K&N Filter, Hurst-6, SLP Cold Air Induction & Smooth Intake Bellow Corsa Catback w/Premium Tips '83 V45 Magna Jack Conley spilled my beer when they jumped on the table and proclaimed in <10cq6vlnsjaqde8@corp.supernews.com> > thanks a lot for calling me a f.cking retard.... i really appreciate that. > a.shole!! theres nothing wrong with using the paper clip as i did in the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > do appologize that i don't let others do my work for me and then take the > credit. i am a REAL enthusiast. i do my own work. What year? Because like I said earlier, you really don't want to use a paperclip on an OBD-II car. The computers tend to dislike that. :) Note: I keep a wire in my S-10, but that's OBD-I... :) NOI > thanks a lot for calling me a f.cking retard.... i really appreciate that. > a.shole!! theres nothing wrong with using the paper clip as i did in the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > appologize that i don't let others do my work for me and then take the > credit. i am a REAL enthusiast. i do my own work. I wasnt gonna get into this..but.. You claim you are a REAL enthusiast. Then get off your high horse and listen. You cant use a paperclip on OBD2..even if you could, why? Being cheap? While it is interesting at times to find a cheap way to DIY, there is a right way, and a wrong way to go about it. Personally, I cant imagine even on an older GM using the old paperclip method. I want to SEE what is being reported, now. But then again, I worked in automotive for years, and know one thing....cheap a.s repairs lead to cheap a.s cars. You are right...it does not take a rocket scientist to do auto work...I mean..look at you. You can do it and use only a paperclip.... He didnt come out and call you a f.cking retard..he said you are too f.cking retarded to own the car...big difference. In short order, hes saying if you, as an enthusiast...cant afford to buy the tools to work on the car right, park it and let someone else. I am calling you a f.cking idiot..not a retard. A retarded person normally knows his limitations. Enthusiast my a.s...you dont have a clue who is lurking in here, who has what..or who has done what. Might I suggest that with your last reply, that you have basically killed any chances you have of getting any real advice again. I have one Snap On box that empty was over $6000. I could have bought a cheap a.s Craftsman...but I really didnt want to put over $75,000 in tools into a Craftsman box. Oh...and I bought it AFTER I left automotive. It never fails to amaze me, that someone always seems to think that they can do anything with a couple of cheap tools and a little bit of knowledge. I wont even get into what I deal with on a daily basis now, other than cheap fixes always end up costing more. > > "SgtSilicon" <foolspicedham_melbo_jon@hotmail.com> wrote in > > > Idoits and inbreads are always looking for a short cut. If you don't [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.705 / Virus Database: 461 - Release Date: 6/12/2004 >Subject: Re: Will I trash my fuel injectors if I do this? >From: "CBHVAC" same@as.it.was.com [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> Version: 6.0.705 / Virus Database: 461 - Release Date: 6/12/2004 First things first: If you own a Corvette you can afford the right repairs/tools. If not, take the plate off and put it up for sale for someone that has the tools (Like me). And I don't want your car, trust me :). "Ain't" shorting out anything with a paper clip on OBDII. And the newsflash as mentioned earlier is that codes don't tell you squat. It's the data stream you're after. If you go to the dentist and you say, "My tooth hurts", without the dentist getting the data from you, he might say, "Well I'll just pull the SOB out, that should do it". Meanwhile, your jaw is infected and you're now toothless and still in pain (and a big a.shole along with the dentist). With that being said, a code reader from Sears (made by Actron) is under $200 and will give you some clue of what you're doing. But again, a code reader is NOT a scanner. The main difference is that a code reader isn't a diagnostic/repair tool, a scanner is. The better of us here have a scanner (or two, or three). Both of my scanners are OBDI (what I own) and were free to me. I have an MPSI for one and if you look in the Saturn (I own one) diagnostic literature, you'll see the SAME machine in their photographs with a Saturn logo. You can buy a scanner on Ebay for your vehicle for probably under $200 and you'll be well on your way to fixing your POS the right way. As for "real enthusiasts" (like me), I don't sweat the cost of tools. I buy good quality tools and they pay for themselves 10 times over BEFORE the first job I've done with them is complete. I own a ton of Sears Craftsman (including their tool boxes), and they are just fine. I have some of the professional stuff too. For the home mechanic, the Sears stuff is fine, so long as it is USA made. CBHVAC: Sears boxes are made by Waterloo. I own them, a Husky or two (Stanley works) and a Snap On side box (from 1955 that was given to me). The newer SN stuff looks to be made by Stanleyworks (made in Canada). As for the quality of the Sears ones, I have some brand new ones (good quality) and some old ones (1960, 1968). The latter are built very, very well and even have roller drawers on the bottom where Snap On's had compound slides in those years. I was featured in the Craftsman Club Newsletter about 3 years ago when I restored the 1960 rollaway I had and sent in the photos to Sears :). I won some money and got my mug in the book :). Joe--ASE Certified Parts Specialist & 10th Ann.Club Tech Director '80 Carousel Red Turbo T/A, 26k orig. '79 "Y89" 400/4 speed 10th Ann. T/A, 57k orig '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... '80 T/A project car... > >Subject: Re: Will I trash my fuel injectors if I do this? > >From: "CBHVAC" same@as.it.was.com [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] > '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... > '80 T/A project car... Joe must live in a better area then I do. Between what was stolen when I moved, what was stolen when they punched the locks out of my tool box on my 84 C-10, and what was stolen from having my shop broken in to, Repalcement value wise in the last 3 years I have lost over 22K worth of tools. Including 3 lock out kits, one set of key-blank type master-picks (for doing repo's), and 3 long rods (pink, made by different companies). 1 Code Scanner (OTC Pathfinder, bought cheep from a shop that went under), a few air racthets, and impacts, my d/a's and power sanders, ect. I spend on average atleast $100 to $150 per month on ebay buying used tools (mostly Snap-on, Blue Point, Mac & Proto). Plus another $100 to $300 at local pawn shops, swap meets, flee markets buying used tools (same as what I buy on ebay) What I buy used for $200 to $450 has a new off the truck value of any where for $300 to $1000 or more. Heck I got a used Proto 3/4 Drive Ratchet for $25 plus $8 shipping off ebay. Industrail finsh, in excellent shape. New that ratchet at the local Proto retailers would cost $250 or better. For the most part Im starting to shy away from Craftsman tools. Quaility of stuff like Ratchets has gone down, same with some of the sockets. Plus they closed down the Sears that was only about 6 miles from my shop. So now I have to drive like 30 minutes either way to go to one of the remaining Sears to exchange tools. Yet somethings like their screw drivers I perfer over other brands. Execpt for the Torx Drivers. I strip them way to easy, or break the handles free from the shank. I like Craftsman Tool Boxes. Better value new then alot of the more expensive brands. If you get the Pro Boxes, I thing you get what is the top of the line by the maker of that box. Although that said, I like Mac & Snap on side cabinates better then what I have seen labeled Craftsman. I currently have around a 67 or 68 vintage Craftsman (Red & Silver) Roll-a-way. 5 Draw bottom unit, 3 large draw top unit, 3 small draws. A erly 90's vintage Red & Black with a 6 Draw Bottom unit, plus the slide out shelf (a upside down draw with wing walk), that also has the metal fold out shelf on the side. The top box has 5 large draws and 3 small draws. Then I have a mid 90's "Mechanics" top box 3 large draws, 3 small. All 26 to 26&1/2 inches wide. Im looking for more as them, plus my other smaller tool boxes are getting full. Thankfully my one business partner has 4 times the amount of tools that I do at his other shop. I end up barrowing from him often as I build back up. Charles And all this means $450 for one use is a good thing? I think not. Agreed on buying a reasonable scanner though, epsecially compared to paperclips. >> Charles, a guy trying to fix is own car isn't a professional who is >> going to invest all that cash in equipment. Paying $450 for a tool [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >attempt any auto repair. >Charles ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and including the underscore in my email reply header. The price of $450.00 was wrong the first time I posted it! I corrected it as $50.00 and everyone is still arguing on the wrong price? Shame! Refinish King > And all this means $450 for one use is a good thing? I think not. > Agreed on buying a reasonable scanner though, epsecially compared to [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and > including the underscore in my email reply header. I am aware of that. But BEFORE you corrected it, Charles suggested that the guy ought to spend the $450 for a tool becuase it is the proper way or some such, so my contrary point to Charles still stands. No offense Charles, it's just guys bantering about cars and such. >The price of $450.00 was wrong the first time I posted it! > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >> ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and >> including the underscore in my email reply header. ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and including the underscore in my email reply header. But: With all due respect, Joe even said it can be rented from AutoZone, So why the bantering? There are more important things to do, like help people with real issues! Refinish King PS Maybe even piss off a few Ford owners? > I am aware of that. But BEFORE you corrected it, Charles suggested > that the guy ought to spend the $450 for a tool becuase it is the [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and > including the underscore in my email reply header. > But: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > PS > Maybe even piss off a few Ford owners? You know, I happen to own a Ford. A 1985 Ranger 4x4 (2.3-Fuel Injected/5-speed/front lock-outs/15 inch ARE wheels/30x9.50x15 tires. Got her at a dealer auction for $75, including the auction fee. Has a dead fuel pump, and a bad clutch. Destin to live again with a body lift, as well as larger tires, maybe 33x10.50x15's. Charles Not your average Ford Owner. I have an 85 Ranger 4X4 2.8: I use it to beat the sh.t out of in the winter and have had it for 6 years or more. My friend toasted the clutch last year, when we pulled my motorhome out of the alley, so I could junk it and keep the local police happy. There's a lot to be said for working with the local police, when you have a bunch of flatulating sphincters for neighbors. The police seem to side with me more! But anyway, even with the toasted clutch, I plow, I beat the sh.t out of it, and even when it's 4 quarts low on oil, I never hear a knock! But, it's still a F.O.R.D.! Refinish King > > But: > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Charles > Not your average Ford Owner. > I have an 85 Ranger 4X4 2.8: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Refinish King If you decide to get rid of it, I would be interested in the plow. Mine is so rusty the floor pans are gone. I orginally bought it for the wheels, but then decided it would make a good play toy for going Off-Roading in. Heck I have everything but a used fuel pump laying around, including a used clutch out of a 79 Mustange that had a 2.3. I doubt Ill even sand the rust down where it is thru the primer. Unless I DP-90 it, then spray bomb it. Which means touch up's can be done in any parking lot (hehe). I recently bought a rolled over S-10 Extended Cab to be my "Nice" 4x4. Which Ill trash, but then worry about spiffin up. Good thing about Rangers is you don't feel bad when you trash one off roading. Same with the Nissan Pick-up that I used to tough truck. Charles This one has nice floors: and the box only needs wheel arch panels. So this will be my custom wrecker, when I get an F450 4WD frame, another box to extend this box and make a wheel lift and a boom. So it ought to be a fun project, I found an F450 PSD 2WD, that needs a tranny, so that might be a start, now to see when the building project can get stated and finished, or just lease/ Refinish King > > I have an 85 Ranger 4X4 2.8: > > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > roading. Same with the Nissan Pick-up that I used to tough truck. > Charles > This one has nice floors: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Refinish King Really the best way to go with a Cab and Chassis is to by a used Wrecker Bed, or a new one. Add on wheel lifts often don't work as well as ones made to work with a wrecker bed. Slide in booms are like using an old Homles 440 bed (I started out on 440's and 480's). The best boom truck bed I have ever operated was a Jerr-Dan. Nice controlls, excellant boom, wheel lift controlls on the bed, unlike vulcan beds. On something like a Ranger, if you try to tow something wide, long or heavy you will find the truck all over the road. Like a S-10 they just don't have the weight to them to pull. Something else to watch out for is rear ends. F-Super Duty's and F-450's kill them. If the gear set doesn't go out, it's usually the drivers side axle & axle tube that do. Around here you can hardly find a rear end for one, and their are alot of them out here. About half or more of the 90 up light duty wreckers around here are either F-Super Duty's or F-450's. Charles >Subject: Re: Will I trash my fuel injectors if I do this? >From: "Refinish King" noneofyourbusiness@mindyourbusiness.com [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] >> ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and >> including the underscore in my email reply header. Even if you own old cars, you need tools. Geez. LOL. I could pound out the lower ball joints in my Trans Am with a lump hammer, but isn't it easier to buy the OTC press that does them in 10 minutes for $100? The set listed for $225, I got it on Ebay with shipping BRAND NEW for half. My time and sanity are worth the $100 :). Not to mention doing the job right. Joe--ASE Certified Parts Specialist & 10th Ann.Club Tech Director '80 Carousel Red Turbo T/A, 26k orig. '79 "Y89" 400/4 speed 10th Ann. T/A, 57k orig '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... '80 T/A project car... If you agree that buying the $450 (yes we know it's actually $50) tool for a one time use isn't the way to go, then why can't you support someone that says so, or at least just not say anything? I mean given the situation I would have expected you to say very early on something to the effect of buying the tool is not a good idea since you can buy replacement injectors for less, or even rent the tool. When I offered a contrary opinion to Charles, it wasn't to offend Charles. It was to call attention to the wasting of money so that the person with the issue could be helped (by not wasting money). I have no problem with you or Charles. In fact, I think both of you are an assets to the news group. That doesn't mean though that I will agree with everything or anything either of you ever write, and I won't be afraid to express it if it's called for. So peace. >But: > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] >> ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and >> including the underscore in my email reply header. ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and including the underscore in my email reply header. >Subject: Re: Will I trash my fuel injectors if I do this? >From: foolspicedham_melbo_jon@hotmail.com (SgtSilicon) [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] >** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and >including the underscore in my email reply header. I mean given the situation I would have expected you to say very early on something to the effect of buying the tool is not a good idea since you can buy replacement injectors for less, or even rent the tool. --That's parts replacement, not diagnosis. Parts changers are like opinions, there are plenty to go around. You shouldn't buy any parts until testing/diagnosis damns them as being bad. Until then, you test, test, test. The tool costs less than an hour's labor at any modern shop (minimum $75 an hour) and cheaper than one OEM fuel injector's list price. With that being said, the tool is a grand bargain. I don't think anyone here would go to a heart doctor that just had a stethoscope. If you said, "Gee, I feel pain" shouldn't you send me for a test? and he said, "Nah, who needs that expensive equipment? All I need is a scope!!!". Or if your dentist only tool was for removing teeth, you'd seek another dentist, right? Same thing here. Car repair and medical diagnosis have a ton in common, it's time that people learned it. Joe--ASE Certified Parts Specialist & 10th Ann.Club Tech Director '80 Carousel Red Turbo T/A, 26k orig. '79 "Y89" 400/4 speed 10th Ann. T/A, 57k orig '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... '80 T/A project car... I tell my doctor that: When I look over EKG's and tell him what's what. he says where did you learn that? I say the automotive scope pattern has a lot in common, plus I frequent webmd a lot. LOL Refinish King > >Subject: Re: Will I trash my fuel injectors if I do this? > >From: foolspicedham_melbo_jon@hotmail.com (SgtSilicon) [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] > '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... > '80 T/A project car... For the umpteenth time.... I know it isn't $450, but it was the $450 price that was suggested to pay as still worth it. The specifics were that there was another way to get the answer to the same question, but the downside was that it could ruin injecotr(s) in the process. Considering tool rental would be better than buying such a tool for a one time (probably) use, or that even replacing injectors would be cheaper, buying the tool (at $450) is just bad advice for someone who doesn't work on cars for a living. That's my opinion. I still stand by it. Thanks for your interest. Yes, now that we know it was $50 for the tool I would not have advised against purchasing it. But we didn't know that at 1st. Anyway I'm done with this. Haven't you read where I acknowledge the price change already? This is like the 3rd or 4th time I've had to explain this. I know it's hard to read every message but I'm getting worn out explaining my position over and over. >>Subject: Re: Will I trash my fuel injectors if I do this? >>From: foolspicedham_melbo_jon@hotmail.com (SgtSilicon) [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] >'84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... >'80 T/A project car... ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and including the underscore in my email reply header. This thread: Has gone on and on, almost torturous. Like beating your meat against the urinal to get rid of the drips! Refinish King > For the umpteenth time.... I know it isn't $450, but it was the $450 > price that was suggested to pay as still worth it. The specifics were [quoted text clipped - 142 lines] > ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and > including the underscore in my email reply header. >Subject: Re: Will I trash my fuel injectors if I do this? >From: foolspicedham_melbo_jon@hotmail.com (SgtSilicon) [quoted text clipped - 158 lines] >** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and >including the underscore in my email reply header. Well, if you buy OEM injectors at $100 a pop (about what OE list is for these), and ya need 8 of 'em, that's a nice chunk of change. If your pulse tester were $450, it would be a bargain if it saved you from changing 8 injectors in error, and that's not counting labor :). Joe--ASE Certified Parts Specialist & 10th Ann.Club Tech Director '80 Carousel Red Turbo T/A, 26k orig. '79 "Y89" 400/4 speed 10th Ann. T/A, 57k orig '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... '80 T/A project car... >Well, if you buy OEM injectors at $100 a pop (about what OE list is for these), >and ya need 8 of 'em, that's a nice chunk of change. > >If your pulse tester were $450, it would be a bargain if it saved you from >changing 8 injectors in error, and that's not counting labor :). Yes Joe; if. If. But once again, I believe (and I could be mistaken) that the answer to the question could have been obtained without breaking all the injectors. Also, OEM is not always necessary. Sometimes after market stuff is better than OEM, and sometimes it is far worse (or so the prevailing wisdom seems to be). I'm not a mechanic so I don't have a clue if that's true. I was going by what was said by others who seemed to know more than me. ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and including the underscore in my email reply header. there was never any flame value intended in any of my responses: Only when people get silly, do I try to put them in check. you've been a gentleman, and I shall continue to reciprocate in kind to you. Opinions are for people to disagree on. So If you didn't on some of my ideas, I'd think you wanted to be like me, I tell my daughters don't you ever dare to try to be like me! Scary sh.t? Refinish King PS Imagine if I had a son and he would be near the age of my oldest daughter? The world isn't ready for two of me! > If you agree that buying the $450 (yes we know it's actually $50) > tool for a one time use isn't the way to go, then why can't you [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and > including the underscore in my email reply header. I never really took any flame value from them. It just seemed like you agreed with me but still had to sort of take issue, presumably because I was questioning Charles wisdom on something. Anyway, I respect both you guys and what you have to say (and Joe too). I just don't like to always leave my brain completely at the door. >there was never any flame value intended in any of my responses: > [quoted text clipped - 114 lines] >> ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and >> including the underscore in my email reply header. ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and including the underscore in my email reply header. > I am aware of that. But BEFORE you corrected it, Charles suggested > that the guy ought to spend the $450 for a tool becuase it is the > proper way or some such, so my contrary point to Charles still stands. > No offense Charles, it's just guys bantering about cars and such. My point was any ProWrencher will go out and spend $450 on a tool he/she needs. Further more, if you need something tested and do not have the proper tools. Try to rent or barrow them. If that is not an option, pay someone to test said item for you. I met a person last year who owns a Snap-On MT2500. This guy does not work on cars for a living. He makes his living off of hauling & installing Hot Tubs/Spa's. His side line work is lawn service for commercial reality companies. He does not make a living from cars, yet he likes working on and around them. He knows how to use his scanner, and has the portible printer for it. He charges $25 per hour to come to you, Hook up and test. That is pretty cheep. Doesn't matter if your a shop or not. Heck in most cases you couldn't rent a scanner for that, let alone get aquanted with it in one hour if you had not used one before. Another cheep test some people do is to take a 194 style bulb, and use it as a noid light. Every time I see someone do that, I want to smack them. Noid lights are cheep, like 1/100th of what they used to sell for. I got my set used for $5 bucks, and they are blue point. You can get a new set for under $50, and test GM, Ford, Chrysler & Imports. For those who do not know, a Noid Light is used to check for injector signal and injector pulse at the wiring connector. It's just to test signals from the ECM. These days if you work on cars, you have no excuse not to rent, barrow, or purchase the proper tools. If you can not do that, take the car to someone who has them for diagnostic and service. If that is a problem, a for sale sign might be the kinder root for your car. Charles I generally agree. But this was a specific situation that involved a large expense for little use, with better alternaticves IMHO. If I'm discouraged from expressing my own view then I may as well just stop participating. I try not to be rude or anything but I see nothing wrong with disagreeing about something here or there. >> I am aware of that. But BEFORE you corrected it, Charles suggested >> that the guy ought to spend the $450 for a tool becuase it is the [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >for sale sign might be the kinder root for your car. >Charles ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and including the underscore in my email reply header. > I generally agree. But this was a specific situation that involved a > large expense for little use, with better alternaticves IMHO. If I'm > discouraged from expressing my own view then I may as well just stop > participating. I try not to be rude or anything but I see nothing > wrong with disagreeing about something here or there. I will not discourage you from posting here. Some people I would. I have no problem with you posting your point of views at all. I work on a number of cars where people have not had the proper tools, and have damaged things. It tends to tweak my biskets, so to speak. Just like people who say they can work on old cars, but not the newer computerized cars. Sure you have to learn a few new tricks. Sure newer cars have less room to access things mechanically. Yet the same basics of mechanics still apply. Sometimes I get carried away and my posts come off very rude. Especially after a bad day, or a hard day. If I offended you, I am sorry. Charles >Subject: Re: Will I trash my fuel injectors if I do this? >From: "Charles Bendig" rarepartshunter@yahoo.com [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >after a bad day, or a hard day. If I offended you, I am sorry. >Charles Wanna play? Gotta pay. That's the bottom line. Car repair is no longer "grease monkeying" or "turning wrenches". It's precision, hard, technical work. Those that can do it, will profit and profit well. Those that can't just make work for the rest of the folks that can and make them even more money :). Joe--ASE Certified Parts Specialist & 10th Ann.Club Tech Director '80 Carousel Red Turbo T/A, 26k orig. '79 "Y89" 400/4 speed 10th Ann. T/A, 57k orig '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... '80 T/A project car... A prophetic truth to that statement: In the trenches, we get cars that the neighbor of the customer. Who is "Good" with cars, broke a plug housing on an injector, or pulled the wires out of the socket for the injector. It's our job as professionals to stock the connectors for that socket, also the special crimpers and rubber boots for the plug. Then know where to locate the injectors, install the injector. Then do an injector balance test, which the neighbor knew nothing about, then tells the customer we ripped him off, after we fixed his screw up! Refinish King > >Subject: Re: Will I trash my fuel injectors if I do this? > >From: "Charles Bendig" rarepartshunter@yahoo.com [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... > '80 T/A project car... > >Subject: Re: Will I trash my fuel injectors if I do this? > >From: "Charles Bendig" rarepartshunter@yahoo.com [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... > '80 T/A project car... Shh... don't let on that I work that hard. Charles Yeah. No problem. I think you mostly have good info to share in here and I am glad you do. >> I generally agree. But this was a specific situation that involved a >> large expense for little use, with better alternaticves IMHO. If I'm [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >after a bad day, or a hard day. If I offended you, I am sorry. >Charles ** To email a reply, please remove everything up to and including the underscore in my email reply header. The injector tester is $50.00 Refinish King > why would you spend $450 on a tool to test the injectors for just a one time > use when you can upgrade and replace the injectors for the same price if not [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.703 / Virus Database: 459 - Release Date: 6/10/2004 >Subject: Re: Will I trash my fuel injectors if I do this? >From: "Refinish King" noneofyourbusiness@mindyourbusiness.com [quoted text clipped - 94 lines] >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> Version: 6.0.703 / Virus Database: 459 - Release Date: 6/10/2004 Better known as a pulse tester. As noted they are all over the place. Also, Autozone may rent it for free as part of their tool rental program. Worth a shot. Joe--ASE Certified Parts Specialist & 10th Ann.Club Tech Director '80 Carousel Red Turbo T/A, 26k orig. '79 "Y89" 400/4 speed 10th Ann. T/A, 57k orig '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... '80 T/A project car... Thank you! I made a typo when I sent out my first post at $450.00, this sh.t wireless keyboard. Look where the dollar sign is, and where the 4 is. LOL Excuses, Excuses! Refinish King > >Subject: Re: Will I trash my fuel injectors if I do this? > >From: "Refinish King" noneofyourbusiness@mindyourbusiness.com [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > '84 Olds 88 Royale Bgm 2 dr, 307 "Rocket" (lol), 141k and still going.... > '80 T/A project car... > To all, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Should I bite the bullet and take it to the mechanic to do this test? Follow up... The test worked somewhat well, but without the pulser, it wasn't necessarily accurate. It did give me a good indication of balance though. Injector On for 1 sec bleeds about 26lbs. All injectors were +/-1lb from each other. So, I don't think I have an obviously and completely clogged injector. The pulser would have been handy though to give an accurate reading of pph. Either way, I now think I have a leaking injector. It bleeds off all pressure in about 3 hours. |
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