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Car Forum / Pontiac / Pontiac Cars / January 2007Worth Fixing?
Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it would cost to fix all of this? (1988 Pontiac 6000 2.5 with 125k miles - throttle body injected) The ones below with asterisks (*) are not serious. 1. Stalls especially when you goose the gas pedal from a stop from time to time, especially in reverse and especially when the steering wheel is turned sharp. It will do it going straight however. Sometimes turns over bad on the restart after it stalls. It didn't actually used to have a problem starting back up until the past few months. 2. Has issues starting below 0 (F) and the battery appears to be good. (Turns over very slow - if the motor does start, it sometimes sputters and dies after a second or two on the bitter cold days) Oil used is 5W30 and was changed less than two months ago. It also backfires sometimes when you're trying to get it to start on those bitter cold days like today for example. You could actually see the smoke coming off of the engine when it backfires back by the air filter some place. 3. Putt-putts like a lawn mower does. 4. Misses really bad especially if you begin to drive the vehicle and don't let it warm up for at least five minutes on days where the temperatures are below 50 (F). It really misses when you come to a stop when it's still cold. 5. Misses and sometimes dies when you give the car gas when you first start it up cold even if you just lightly press the gas pedal. 6. From time to time, it turns over poorly if you start it up hot. *7. Cruise control does not work. 8. Valve cover gasket leaking. (PCV valve possibly causing this as it has been addressed several times before) 9. Dad says he can hear the engine making a knocking noise. 10. Possible engine rocker noise heard on occasion when started cold on colder days. 11. Timing may be off - not sure. 12. On occasion, a "rotten egg" smell is noticed when driving the car. Seems to do this more on colder days and seems to be infrequent. It only does this once a month at the most and it appears to be random when it does this and when it doesn't. 13. Tapping noise heard from the engine. (I've noticed it slightly and Dad has also noticed it.) 14. Sometimes acts like you're not letting the car turn over long enough. (This is where I think the timing may be off.) *15. The A/C does not work and will cost more than it's worth to fix from what we've been told. *16. A speaker cuts out at low volumes - when you crank the volume up, the speaker kicks back in. In a previous post done by me earlier today, I discovered the antifreeze leak was just caused my a hose that was not tight. I tightened it up. We have tightened up that hose before, so for some reason, it keeps getting loose and has be tightened from time to time I guess. I just checked my oil level today and it's fine and the oil's condition also looks fine. > Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do > you think this car's worth fixing? Nope. > Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do > you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it > would cost to fix all of this? (1988 Pontiac 6000 2.5 with 125k miles - > throttle body injected) I stopped reading there. The answer is no. A 19 year old dime-a-dozen sedan that has a LIST of issues? No No No. Not unless the educational value of doing the work yourself comes into the equation, but even then I say no because all the technology in that car is waaayyyyy outdated. GW >> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. >> Do you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I say no because all the technology in that car is waaayyyyy outdated. > GW I figured that would be an easy one for you all to answer... lol >> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do >> you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I say no because all the technology in that car is waaayyyyy outdated. >GW Doesn't say what the condition of the rest of the vehicle is. If it's a cream-puff, it might be worth cleaning the injectors and replacing the ignition high tension components. If there are no compression issues that will likely fix it. About 2 bills if you do it yourself. It IS a low mileage car.(for the year)  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com I would fix the car. sounds to me like a bad EGR, bad starter, probably needs a tune up too. >>> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do >>> you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > issues that will likely fix it. About 2 bills if you do it yourself. > It IS a low mileage car.(for the year) > I would fix the car. sounds to me like a bad EGR, bad starter, probably > needs a tune up too. I've been saying EGR for months now !! Had an '86 6000LE that had the same stalling/dying problems; took many trips to the shop to get correctly dx'd but in the end it was the EGR coming on incorrectly. I now have a '98 Grand Prix 3800GT that (knock wood) is problem-free. Signature"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner." - Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather email: aripee at inanna . com > Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do > you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it > would cost to fix all of this? (1988 Pontiac 6000 2.5 with 125k miles - > throttle body injected) The ones below with asterisks (*) are not > serious. I would say it is totally up to you. The car seems to have many problems, but if you like the car enough, and the body is in good shape, then go ahead and keep it. I have owned cars that cost me more in repairs then the car did to buy, but I still repaired them, because I was used to them and liked them. >> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do >> you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to buy, but I still repaired them, because I was used to them and liked > them. Well, the body's in great shape, but I don't like the car a whole lot, but I am used to it. The seat is starting to tear a little bit on the driver's side - it's old though, so what do you expect? If the engine is going to see some sort of an overhaul, it's all over with as far as I'm concerned. Same for the tranny if it ever goes, and I'm still on the original tranny to my knowledge. >>> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do >>> you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > concerned. Same for the tranny if it ever goes, and I'm still on the > original tranny to my knowledge. You are well ahead of where we were when we had our last 6000. The body rusted out so bad we had to scrap the car. I always liked the 6000's, but when the body get's to the point where it's not going to hold together, its time to get rid of it. As for your car, it's totally up to you. One advantage you do have (as opposed to buying another used car) is you know all the problems with yours. If you buy another used car, you may be getting someone else's problems. Still up to you though. :) >>>> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do >>>> you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > all the problems with yours. If you buy another used car, you may be getting > someone else's problems. Still up to you though. :) Here are three pictures of it taken a little over a year ago. It hasn't changed much... I guess one of them was only three months ago. The spots you see on the trunk in the picture were just where leaves were and the spots were washed off, so don't panic there. lol http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/6049/p1160003mediumic0.jpg http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1188/p1160004mediumoq5.jpg http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/469/img2189mediumfn1.jpg >>>>> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. >>>>> Do you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1188/p1160004mediumoq5.jpg > http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/469/img2189mediumfn1.jpg It's actually a nice looking car, if you ask me. Is that burgundy interior? I love that interior color. One of our 1987 6000's had the burgundy interior, and both of my old Grand Prix's had the same. Looks like the body is pretty good, so its up to if you want to repair the things wrong with the car. I found myself in the situation you are in a couple of times, but it was usually cheaper to fix the car I had then to buy another one. You did say you don't like the car very much, so perhaps that is a good reason to get rid of it. Most people don't like putting money into cars period, let alone ones they don't like. >>>>>> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. >>>>>> Do you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > is a good reason to get rid of it. Most people don't like putting money into > cars period, let alone ones they don't like. Yes, the interior is burgundy. If I did try to sell this car, the good points would be the body, the miles for its age, and the fuel economy, which still is getting around 30mpg or 31mpg on the highway the last time I took it out, which was two months ago. It managed fine. The car always seems to make it fine on long drives provided it can make it out of the driveway. Only has the basic dashboard - speedometer that goes to 85MPH and the fuel gauge, plus the warning lights - SES, brake, oil, temp, and volts. I also know this car's past, as it's been in our family for nearly ten years, so I know it's not really ever been that reliable. When my brother bought it with only 60,000 miles ten years ago, it needed three major repairs done and was sold for $1800. One of the repairs was the fuel pump. I don't remember the other two, but I remembered that my brother always had problems getting the car to start. (See, this car always has had starting problems.) The stalling problem this car has when you press the gas sometimes has always been there in the ten years it's been in our family, and it was annoying to all of us. lol The A/C quit only a year after my brother bought it, when he saw the freon starting to run through the vents, and was told back then the car wasn't worth fixing for the A/C. The car also used to have an overheating problem where you'd sit at a fast food place and wait and the temp light would come on from time to time - it would even do this during the winter. This was odd though because this problem was never addressed and the problem has gone away since I've had the car unless my mom had it fixed and I didn't know it - even when it idles after a long drive on really hot days. When I took the car over three years ago, the oil was leaking from the valve cover gasket, and I got that fixed. A month later, it started leaving puddles of oil in the driveway, so we siliconed it, and that held for a year, now it's been leaking for a while again. (I know, the PCV valve.) >>>>>> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. >>>>>> Do you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > is a good reason to get rid of it. Most people don't like putting money into > cars period, let alone ones they don't like. I'll add that the headliner was coming down, so we took that out and put vinyl headliner up. (This was back when I first got the car.) The vinyl is light gray instead of the burgundy, but it kind of matches the gray on the dashboard. Unfortunately, the headliner glue wasn't holding it well enough - it was partially, so we got a few bars that we put across the ceiling to hold the headliner up, and it holds it up well without any sag. >>>>> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do >>>>> you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1188/p1160004mediumoq5.jpg >http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/469/img2189mediumfn1.jpg In that condition I'd at least check out the injectors and ignition wires - enough to cause virtually ALL of the reported problems. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>>>> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do >>>>>> you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > In that condition I'd at least check out the injectors and ignition > wires - enough to cause virtually ALL of the reported problems. Do you think it might be a compression problem when I mentioned the one about the steering wheel being turned and pressing the gas. Twice it has stalled on me just when I simply turned the steering wheel without pressing the gas. The last time it did that was over a month ago, and the car did not want to start back up after it stalled that time either. It also stalled every single time that I put it in reverse and let off the brake. >>>>>>> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do >>>>>>> you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > It also stalled every single time that I put it in reverse and let off >the brake. Pull the plugs and do a compression test. All cyls should be very close. Do the test with the throttle blocked open and theinjectors disconnected. If the compression is at all reasonable, you need to check your plugs and wires. Plugs should have nice square edges onthe center electrode, and gap should be at spec. Check plug colour and report here. If plugs look decent, run engine at idle and spray a bit of water on the plug wires. If it stops, you need new wires (and likely cap too) As mentioned, check ALL the vacuum lines. Try disconnecting the EGR vac line as well - to be sure it is not accidentally being turned on. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Do you think it might be a compression problem when I mentioned the one > about the steering wheel being turned and pressing the gas. Twice it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It also stalled every single time that I put it in reverse and let off > the brake. I *still* think it's the EGR coming on incorrectly since that's what caused mine to stall/die. As for the leaking valve cover gaskets - well, just get used to replacing them; it's a well-known flaw in that car. Signature"Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner." - Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather email: aripee at inanna . com > Do you think it might be a compression problem when I mentioned the one > about the steering wheel being turned and pressing the gas. Twice it has [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > also stalled every single time that I put it in reverse and let off the > brake. As a rule the idle should increase when the steering wheel is turned. It might be worth finding the switch on the rack or pump and testing it, if it hasn't been done. Bill >> Do you think it might be a compression problem when I mentioned the one >> about the steering wheel being turned and pressing the gas. Twice it has [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Bill I believe when I turn the steering wheel tight when stopped as sharp as it will go, the idle goes down, and it really messes with the idle if I turn the steering wheel at all when the car is in park and running. i think auto zone , ammco will scan your car for free.maybe something you can fix if guided. something you can do yourself is check all the vacume lines for cracks. a bad egr valve will make a car act like yours. if you dont want to try to fix,i guess your better off with a car payment and a different newer car. lucas http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm > i think auto zone , ammco will scan your car for > free.maybe something you can fix if guided. something you can do [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm I'm not getting any SES warnings by the way. as far as dying when you let off the brake ... i had a 600 that did that and run bad and the brake booster was bad. pinch off the hose going to it and see if it runs better ,if so, bad booster,.i also agree with changing the plugs and wires. http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm > Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do > you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > I just checked my oil level today and it's fine and the oil's condition > also looks fine. Got the spark plugs replaced. The wires do not look that great, so they'll be getting replaced very soon also. The old spark plugs didn't look that bad except that they had oil all over them. The wires do also, and some have corrosion, so they'll be replaced soon. Also going to get a PCV valve and some gasket silicon for the valve cover again. (The silicon has held up better than the valve cover gaskets have.) After that, that's it. If any more expenses are needed, I'm done at least for now. If the valve cover gasket blows again, I'm done with it. > Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do > you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > I just checked my oil level today and it's fine and the oil's condition > also looks fine. Bought the silicon, PCV valve, and the new plug wires. We're going to let the silicon set up for several hours and then we're going to see what happens... Dad does not like the design of the oil return on the engine because he said that the oil just sits there at the top and doesn't go back down like it's supposed to. He also said that the PCV valve did not look bad, but we replaced it anyway. He also said we need to run fuel injector cleaner through it. If you are having lots of oil leaks are you sure the valve cover is not warped and that you are correctly toquing it down when you replace the gasket? Make sure too to get the top of the head perfectly clean leaving no old oil or gasket material on the head. If the valve cover is warped go get one from a bone yard. did you notice any carbon build up inside the EGR Valve? Did you clean that out too? If the wires are older than 3 years they probably need to be replaced. Definitely put some STP Gas treatment or something in your fuel tank for a few tanks. if there is a lot of crap in the fuel system change the fuel filter too. >> Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do >> you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > look bad, but we replaced it anyway. He also said we need to run fuel > injector cleaner through it. > If you are having lots of oil leaks are you sure the valve cover is not > warped and that you are correctly toquing it down when you replace the [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] >> look bad, but we replaced it anyway. He also said we need to run fuel >> injector cleaner through it. Well, I'll update you... The spark plug wires I bought are junk... The missing has gotten much worse. We found out that one of the wires was not making contact with the spark plug on cylinder one. After we got that on, the car still missed like mad for a minute, but then began to smooth out. (It also turned over like crap and backfired a time or two.) Perhaps it was because it had messed up the cylinder for a minute or two. Dad said that most of my engine's power is coming from cylinder two. Tomorrow, I'm going to start the car again and if the missing is there again, I'm going to return the spark plug wires and replace them with the more expensive, gold-plated ones. I also saw the SES light come on tonight when the car was running during our work after we were done with it, so I'm going to check it and see what it's reporting tomorrow as well. We did not do much with the EGR valve besides taking it off and putting it back on when we worked on the car. The top of it does look kind of rusty. We thoroughly cleaned all the old silicon off of the valve cover and where it was resting. We scraped it all off, then we buffed the rest off. Dad says he knows exactly why the oil leaks - the oil just sits there at the top and does not go down the oil return right on it, so the oil will eat away at a gasket or silicon over time since it just sits there right against the edge. The old spark plugs and wires had oil all over them, and the old wires had corrosion where they connect to the spark plugs. Dad said that the old spark plugs really didn't need replaced if we cleaned all of the oil off of them. >Well, I'll update you... The spark plug wires I bought are junk... The >missing has gotten much worse. We found out that one of the wires was [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >where they connect to the spark plugs. Dad said that the old spark >plugs really didn't need replaced if we cleaned all of the oil off of them. If the oil is not going down you have SERIOUS problems, because when you fill the engine, all the oil goes down past the push-rods to get to the pan. The rockers are pressure lubed - and all that oil DOES return to the pan. Make sure the rocker cover flange is DEAD STRAIGHT. Then it won't leak, even with a dry cork gasket. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> Well, I'll update you... The spark plug wires I bought are junk... The >> missing has gotten much worse. We found out that one of the wires was [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > return to the pan. Make sure the rocker cover flange is DEAD STRAIGHT. > Then it won't leak, even with a dry cork gasket. Well, if I didn't have the valve cover gasket back on already, I'd post a picture of the oil on the top. something is plugged up if the oil is just sitting there. Probably the reason you get tapping from the lifters and an engine knock. Oil is not circulating for some reason, probably sludge build up. >>> Well, I'll update you... The spark plug wires I bought are junk... The >>> missing has gotten much worse. We found out that one of the wires was [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Well, if I didn't have the valve cover gasket back on already, I'd post a > picture of the oil on the top. >>> Well, I'll update you... The spark plug wires I bought are junk... The >>> missing has gotten much worse. We found out that one of the wires was [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >Well, if I didn't have the valve cover gasket back on already, I'd post >a picture of the oil on the top. You will see SOME oil sitting there, on top of surfaces, but there is a SIGNIFICANT amount of oil flows through the top of that engine. Not as much as on an OHC engine, but enough to make a real mess if run with the cover off!!!!!! SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>> Well, I'll update you... The spark plug wires I bought are junk... The >>>> missing has gotten much worse. We found out that one of the wires was [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > as much as on an OHC engine, but enough to make a real mess if run > with the cover off!!!!!! Well, my SES came back on today, so it's not a fluke. Time to check the codes... >>>>> Well, I'll update you... The spark plug wires I bought are >>>>> junk... The missing has gotten much worse. We found out that one [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Well, my SES came back on today, so it's not a fluke. Time to check the > codes... Well, the codes were 13, 44, and 45. 13 & 44 were from when I replaced my O2 sensor the last time and both indicate it's running too low of voltage. (We never cleared the codes.) The new code is 45, which is the O2 sensor voltage is too high. Specifically, the new code says that O2 sensor voltage was above specification. Century and Cutlass Ciera was over 0.75 volts for 50 seconds in a closed loop. Lumina was over 0.7 volts for 30 seconds and throttle angle was between 3% and 45%. (I assume mine fits into the Century & Cutlass Ciera.) This is ridiculous. It was only 14 months ago I replaced the O2 sensor and now it needs it again? This will be the 4th O2 sensor this car will have had. (Assuming it didn't have any done before we took it over nine years ago.) It seems a lot of problems on this car that we fix come back within a year or two. It's like on its 4th or 5th muffler, and I've had to tighten a hose that has leaked antifreeze twice, as well as do the valve cover gasket now three times in three years. What's up with this? I got this information from here... http://www.troublecodes.net/GM/86-87_25R_tbi.shtml Travis King wrote:>> >> Well, my SES came back on today, so it's not a fluke. Time to check >> the codes... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > information from here... > http://www.troublecodes.net/GM/86-87_25R_tbi.shtml the car's almost 20 years old and that engine is the worst design joke ever in a Pontiac and you still seemed surprised you have constant problems. Amazing! Not to mention failing to clear codes or ever verify anything, just replacing parts at random based on codes. GW > Travis King wrote:>> >>> Well, my SES came back on today, so it's not a fluke. Time to check [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > replacing parts at random based on codes. > GW FYI - I was not surprised when this car still had problems after doing our work. In fact, I expected it to not fix anything or at the most, slightly help it but not fix anything major. I had a feeling it would likely be a waste of money. It was my dad that seemed certain that plugs and wires would fix it, and he wasn't going to get off of my case until I did something about it. I never had much hope knowing this car. I am also not surprised that I'm having repetitive problems on this car since that's what it's always done. Also, I did not have the SES until after we replaced the plugs, wires, PCV valve, and worked on the valve cover. It's typical of this car since I've had it to have something else go wrong with it once we fix something else. Dad said he does not like the design of this engine's oil return system. He mentioned something about how if he wanted to spend the time, he could put some kind of groove into it to keep the oil inside. I didn't understand what he was talking about, but whatever... He said he did not see any oil sludge and said that he knows it's a design flaw. (I don't know how he knows if he really does...) I have not told him that my car is still running bad because if I do, he'll just want me to senselessly spend more money on getting higher-end spark plug wires, which I'd bet also won't help. It might be the EGR, it could be something with the injectors. I don't know, and I don't really want to play "guess" either to find out. Time to either take it to a shop or get rid of it. (I'm starting to go towards getting rid of it.) I've heard that if the timing gears go out in this car, it will cause MAJOR damage. It's still starting like I'm not letting it turn over long enough. Perhaps that's a sign of the timing going out? Anyhow, I think I'm starting to see the light on what decision I should make whether I should spend the money on it or get something else. My intentions are to get something else by this summer. (definitely want to wait until at the earliest April when we shouldn't have much more Winter weather.) >>>>>> Well, I'll update you... The spark plug wires I bought are >>>>>> junk... The missing has gotten much worse. We found out that one [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > I got this information from here... >http://www.troublecodes.net/GM/86-87_25R_tbi.shtml Too high voltage means running too lean, IIRC, too low means rich. (or other way around, can't remember and don't have book in front of me - almost certain too high is lean) It does NOT necessarilly mean your sensor is bad (and usually does not) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Too high voltage means running too lean, IIRC, too low means rich. (or > other way around, can't remember and don't have book in front of me - > almost certain too high is lean) > It does NOT necessarily mean your sensor is bad (and usually does > not) High is rich. It's intuitive that way, like higher higher fuel trim numbers. It's important to be able to monitor the data from the sensor real-time to watch the switching, and watch the fuel trim (or in the ancient case, the "Block Learn Multiplier" and "Integrator" values) react. GW > Here's the list of issues that mostly need attention and are serious. Do > you think this car's worth fixing? Secondly, how much do you think it [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > I just checked my oil level today and it's fine and the oil's condition > also looks fine. It fired right up this morning and didn't miss. I also restarted the motor several times and it turned over fine. It still acted like I wasn't letting it turn over long enough though when I started it cold. |
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