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Car Forum / Porsche / Porshe 944 / May 2006

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Rebuild or new engine?

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Scott - 14 May 2006 08:08 GMT
Sigh.

So two weeks ago I was driving my 1990 S2 on the freeway when I suddenly
lost some power.
I went from around 100 to 80, and I had a hard time accelerating.  I
immediately pulled off the
highway and heard some noises that weren't right.  I killed the ignition
right there and had it towed
back home.

The verdict: Some water in the number 1 cylinder.  Upon further review, it
looked like the master
head gasket had blown.  I pulled the head and investigated further.  Turns
out there is a chip off
the top of the number 1 cylinder.  There is also scoring of the cylinder
wall.

At this point this is way over my technical level.  My mechanic that I use
for big jobs has given
me basically two options:

1. Buy a used S2 engine and have that installed.  He has said that before he
installs the engine,
he would put on a new head gasket, replace the oil pan gasket, change the
timing belts,
and check / replace the clutch if  necessary.  (I guess it's easier to do
when the engine is
outside the car.)

2. The other option is to rebuild this engine.  This would include machining
all four cylinders,
putting in slightly larger pistons, rings, etc and possibly machining the
heads and valves.

He has indicated that number 2 will be as expensive or even a little more
than number 1,
but for me at this point money is not my concern.  I'm more than willing to
pay for the job
to be done right.

Which brings me to my question:  What IS the "right" way to do this?  Any
thoughts on rebuild
versus new engine?  Pros and cons to each?  Which one is more likely to run
trouble free for
a longer period of time?

All this sucks a.s, but I'm willing to do the job right and ensure many
years of high-speed driving
in my beloved 944.  Any advice here is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
Scott.
darthpup - 14 May 2006 17:50 GMT
Have all cylinders honed and oversize rings installed.  Replace the
bearings on connecting rods.  This can be done with engine in car.  It
really depends on how deep the scoring is on the one cylinder ane the
chip size and whether it would prevent the gasket from sealing the head
properly.
PDX944 - 15 May 2006 05:00 GMT
I would rebuild the engine.  But isn't the pistons and the cylinder
walls coated in some aluminum alloy or something for longer life?  And
you are not able to bore it out.  Correct me if i am wrong.
darthpup - 15 May 2006 13:39 GMT
Boring not required
News Surfer - 16 May 2006 04:31 GMT
ok, i'm a machinist by trade and maybe i'm missing something here... boring
and honing a cyclinder are the same are they not? oversize rings would
require the removal of wall material would it not? i'm very interested in
this as well, because i was thinking of puting in oversize rings myslef but
was told that it wasn't possible. and how would you hone a cylinder without
removing the engine? do expand on this topic please. very interesting stuff.

> Boring not required
William B Noble (don't reply to this address) - 16 May 2006 06:49 GMT
start by downloading the pet6 and shop manual - there's not only the
detaild parts list but also all the info on overhaul you could want. I
seem to remember (and I'm too lazy to check right now) that the 944
has replaceable sleeves

>ok, i'm a machinist by trade and maybe i'm missing something here... boring
>and honing a cyclinder are the same are they not? oversize rings would
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>> Boring not required

Bill

www.wbnoble.com

to contact me, do not reply to this message,
instead correct this address and use it

will iam_  b_   No  ble   at  msn  daught   com
darthpup - 16 May 2006 14:13 GMT
Boring and honing not the same thing.
bernard farquart - 17 May 2006 05:46 GMT
> ok, i'm a machinist by trade and maybe i'm missing something here...
> boring and honing a cyclinder are the same are they not? oversize rings
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a cylinder without removing the engine? do expand on this topic please.
> very interesting stuff.

A machinist? really?

OK, here it goes, boring means you take a large machine
and take off .25 mm or .001 all around the bore of each cyl. this then means
you
buy over sized *pistons*, not rings to make a match between bore and piston.

Honing means you take a three stone (or ball type)  hone and
put it on a drill and move it up and down the cylinder bore
with your hand, to break the glaze on the cylinder wall, so that
the new rings you are putting on your old pistons seat properly.

oversize rings on standard pistons, of course would not fit on
the pistons at all in the first place.

Bernard
darthpup - 17 May 2006 13:06 GMT
Almost correct.  Oversize rings are available for standard pistion.
You must fit them to each cylinder by inserting and adjusting the ring
gap before placing on piston and installing.
bernard farquart - 20 May 2006 06:09 GMT
> Almost correct.  Oversize rings are available for standard pistion.
> You must fit them to each cylinder by inserting and adjusting the ring
> gap before placing on piston and installing.

Well, I can't say I have heard of them, but I am only 40.

So it would sort of be a custom size based on your adjustment
to each cyl.?

Nice, kind of like the early engines with hand finished
parts, each piston would only properly fit in it's own
bore.

Bernard
darthpup - 20 May 2006 13:42 GMT
There is nothing vintage about this procedure.  Common approach by any
competent mechanic.  Failure to fit rings can result in broken ring
after running engine.  Ring gap is quite important especially in engine
with aluminium block.

http://oem.thepartsbin.com/parts/thepartsbin/wizard.jsp?year=1984&make=PO&model=
944--001&category=All&part=Piston%20Ring%20Set&dp=false

bernard farquart - 21 May 2006 01:31 GMT
> There is nothing vintage about this procedure.  Common approach by any
> competent mechanic.  Failure to fit rings can result in broken ring
> after running engine.  Ring gap is quite important especially in engine
> with aluminium block.

I have only re-ringed a couple of engines, and they were both
Chevy. small blocks, I just made sure the compression ring's gaps
were opposite from each other. Nothing about setting ring gap
in any of the instructions I had at the time. I have (knock of wood)
only had to do the timing belt and tensioner swap on my 928, everything
else has been farther out from the center of the engine. (injectors,
rebuild torque tube brakes etc.)

I sell auto parts, but no one comes into my store for
any internals unless it is for a domestic, pretty much, so
I have only seen the ring sets in oversize to match
oversize pistons, although I do seem to remember some
ring sizing while a friend of mine was doing a Volvo engine,
didn't really connect that with an "oversize ring" situation.

thanks

Bernard
darthpup - 21 May 2006 02:28 GMT
Connect???
bernard farquart - 21 May 2006 07:25 GMT
> Connect???

'cause it didn't apply to the engines I had done,
and I was pretty much just drinking beer in his
garage while he set up the short block.
 
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