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Car Forum / Porsche / Porshe 944 / September 20061984 944 will not start
A week ago i changed the battery out. It ran that day and the next. The following day it did not start. it seems to want to start, for about a second it runs and then dies. The longer I wait to start it again the longer it runs, i think 2 seconds is the longest so far. It cranks, it has spark at all the plugs. I replaced the DME relay. I can hear the fuel pump on the tank making a noise when it is cranked and the fuel pump under the tank makes noise when i start the car. All the fuses look good. My gut tells me this is a fuel issue. I hate to keep changing out parts until it works. I have no clue, any suggestions would be great. I had the same problem with my 87 944. Replaced DME relay, fuel pump, a timing mark sensor and was thinking of putting in new fuel injectors. Turned out to be the fuel pressure regulator. If the regulator fails and the fuel pressure is too great, the computer will shut it down. I did a fuel pressure check, replaced the regulator, started right up. >A week ago i changed the battery out. It ran that day and the next. > The following day it did not start. it seems to want to start, for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > keep changing out parts until it works. I have no clue, any > suggestions would be great. Go to Home Depot and buy a pressure gauge 0 to 100 psi, Fuel pressure should be around thirty. Go here to get specs: http://www.clarks-garage.com where do i hook the pressure gage into? > Go to Home Depot and buy a pressure gauge 0 to 100 psi, Fuel pressure > should be around thirty. Go here to get specs: > http://www.clarks-garage.com Where do you hook the pressure gage into, I do i take a reading as im trying to start the car? Thanks > Go to Home Depot and buy a pressure gauge 0 to 100 psi, Fuel pressure > should be around thirty. Go here to get specs: > http://www.clarks-garage.com Im going to try that tonight (replace regulator). I went ahead and replaced the fuel pump and filter. The filter was full of black yuck. The fuel pump was rusted on so im sure it was old enough that i can write this off as preventitive maintenance. I pulled the injector rail off and turned the starter and it squires fuel but it did not atomize it. That leaves injectors and presssure regulator as likely. Thanks > I had the same problem with my 87 944. Replaced DME relay, fuel pump, a > timing mark sensor and was thinking of putting in new fuel injectors. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > keep changing out parts until it works. I have no clue, any > > suggestions would be great. Good luck The non start is a very common problem with all 944's. Please let us know how it works out. > Im going to try that tonight (replace regulator). I went ahead and > replaced the fuel pump and filter. The filter was full of black yuck. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> > keep changing out parts until it works. I have no clue, any >> > suggestions would be great. By the way. Fuel pressure gage is attached to the end of the fuel rail. You may need an adaptor. Be real careful. The fuel comes out fast and furious. Tony hey, this is where someone like me yells at you - instead of randomly replacing stuff and draining your wallet, download the factory service manual and follow the diagnostic procedures - it tells you exactly where and how to measure fuel pressure, etc. > Im going to try that tonight (replace regulator). I went ahead and > replaced the fuel pump and filter. The filter was full of black yuck. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> > keep changing out parts until it works. I have no clue, any >> > suggestions would be great.  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com LOL, thanks i needed that. Here is a site i found the manual at http://www.cannell.co.uk/Manuals.htm Im going to go through this manual this afternoon. I ordered the pressure regulator yesterday. I will follow up and post what i find. thanks > hey, this is where someone like me yells at you - instead of randomly > replacing stuff and draining your wallet, download the factory service [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >> > keep changing out parts until it works. I have no clue, any > >> > suggestions would be great. And when all else fails - I guess - try rapping on the master brain computer. My 1987 944 had awful intermittent problems - with every fix I tried, the car would run fine, then die unexpectedly again. I rapped on the case of the brain in an emergency effort to start and it worked. I then swapped the brain with a known good one and voila it worked. So I removed my original brain and re-soldered the larger terminals and my original brain was fixed. Now the 944 runs perfectly. Same cold soldered joints with the cruise control brain. Signaturejoliett -------- > LOL, thanks i needed that. Here is a site i found the manual at > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >> >> > keep changing out parts until it works. I have no clue, any >> >> > suggestions would be great. Pressure gage shows 2.5 bars, manual says 2.3 to 2.7 bars so we have good pressure. So now i am starting to believe the problem is not fuel. I believe it is somthing causing the engine to not keep running, an abort due to a sensor or something. So i poked around and saw a loose ground on the top the bell housing on the back of the engine. I went to tighten it.....my socket was being pressed by some big tube and it pushed the socket off the extension....bounce bounce bounce and it went into an uncovered hole on the top? who would leave a hole there. So now i am heading out to get a magnet and see if i can tag it. The only other thing to do is pull the starter and figure out how i get a 10mm socket to fall to the bottom? any ideas are welcomed bone head move of the night > LOL, thanks i needed that. Here is a site i found the manual at > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > -- > > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com the big hole is where you look to see the timing mark. > Pressure gage shows 2.5 bars, manual says 2.3 to 2.7 bars so we have > good pressure. [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] >> > -- >> > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com I tried my magnet on a stick tool and got nothing. Do you know if the socket can fall all the way down to where the starter is? if so i could take the starter off. If the hole is contained i can try more agressive searches for the socket with my three prong grabber. Im concerned i will wedge it more? I suspect im now to a point of loading it on the trailer and taking it in for the pros to take it now. I m gessing the housing will need to be separated from the engine to get it out. If you or anyone has seen the insides of that area let me know what is in there. (besides my socket) Thanks > the big hole is where you look to see the timing mark. > [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > >> > -- > >> > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >I tried my magnet on a stick tool and got nothing. Do you know if the >socket can fall all the way down to where the starter is? if so i [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Thanks >snip Assuming you have a manual trans. You have inside that housing your flywheel , pressure plate, clutch. Any one else reading this, it's a great idea to cover that hole with tape whenever working on the rear of the engine. You found out the hard way. I don't think taking off the starter is going to help, but it's worth a try. To seperate the bell housing from engine requires removing the transaxle, sliding the torque tube back, disconnecting drive shaft,starter, clutch slave, and so on. On the other hand if your clutch is close to due for replacement, golden opportunity. don >> >> > -- >> >> > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Thanks for information. Good news. I got the socket out of the bell housing. I will always cover that hole from now on. I took the starter off yesterday and took my sparkplugs out. With a big screw driver and not much force i was able to move the fly wheel. I rotated it a couple inches each way and wa -la the socket fell out the bottom. I was in total disbelief. Its good to be lucky. I also covered the hole and tightened the loose ground, 13mm not 10mm and as soon as i get the starter back in later today. Hopefully the loose ground is what is causing the sensors to tell the computer to abort running. (theory) Thanks all. > >I tried my magnet on a stick tool and got nothing. Do you know if the > >socket can fall all the way down to where the starter is? if so i [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >> -- > >> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Excellent news. While you're in there, take a look around and familiarize yourself with where vacuum hoses are, electrical connections, generally the inside of the engine bay. The time I spend just looking around and learning what goes where is allways invaluable to me when doing repairs. ps having a manual handy is a great learning tool! Again congrats on the socket removal, good luck with the ground wire, happy safe motoring after that. Be safe, and fast. don >Thanks for information. Good news. I got the socket out of the bell >housing. I will always cover that hole from now on. I took the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Thanks all. Thanks for information. Good news. I got the socket out of the bell housing. I will always cover that hole from now on, GOOD ADVICE. I took the starter off yesterday and took my sparkplugs out. With a big screw driver and not much force i was able to move the fly wheel. I rotated it a couple inches each way and wa -la the socket fell out the bottom. I was in total disbelief. Its good to be lucky. I also covered the hole and tightened the loose ground, 13mm not 10mm and as soon as i get the starter back in later today it should start. Hopefully the loose ground is what is causing the sensors to tell the computer to abort running. (theory). I believe my DME is good, reasons are the pulse and voltages are correct on the injector plugs, it runs for several seconds. I am pretty sure now it has to be a sensor shorted, or not sending the correct signal to the DME causing the car to abort. Thanks all. Shel > >I tried my magnet on a stick tool and got nothing. Do you know if the > >socket can fall all the way down to where the starter is? if so i [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >> -- > >> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Thanks for the information. Good news. I got the socket out of the bell housing. I will always cover that hole from now on, GOOD ADVICE. I took the starter off yesterday and took my sparkplugs out. With a big screw driver and not much force i was able to move the fly wheel. I rotated it a couple inches each way and wa -la the socket fell out the bottom. I was in total disbelief. Its good to be lucky. I also covered the hole and tightened the loose ground, 13mm not 10mm and as soon as i get the starter back in later today it should start. Hopefully the loose ground is what is causing the sensors to tell the computer to abort running. (theory). I believe my DME is good, reasons are the pulse and voltages are correct on the injector plugs, it runs for several seconds. I am pretty sure now it has to be a sensor shorted, or not sending the correct signal to the DME causing the car to abort. Thanks all. Shel > >I tried my magnet on a stick tool and got nothing. Do you know if the > >socket can fall all the way down to where the starter is? if so i [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >> -- > >> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Almost certain the loose ground cable is your problem. I finally took it into the shop and they concluded it is the ECU. Not a cheap fix. But it is fixed! What causes ECUs to go bad? I wonder if something else caused it to go bad and i will have this happen again. > Pressure gage shows 2.5 bars, manual says 2.3 to 2.7 bars so we have > good pressure. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > > -- > > > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com why don't you take it apart and inspect it and see what failed - frequently a bad solder joint >I finally took it into the shop and they concluded it is the ECU. Not > a cheap fix. But it is fixed! [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] >> > > -- >> > > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > I finally took it into the shop and they concluded it is the ECU. Not > a cheap fix. But it is fixed! > > What causes ECUs to go bad? I wonder if something else caused it to go > bad and i will have this happen again. (snip) Consider almost any piece of electronic equipment in your home. Now consider it being run for twenty years in a hot place, with LOTS of vibration, a few solvent fumes and so on. The ECU in a car is very very well packaged, I know, but the fact that they make it past one year is a minor miracle, really! SignatureRegards, Dave email: dave_ryman@hotmailNOSPAM.com My Homepage: http://homepages.tesco.net/david.ryman/ The F1 travel guide: http://www.zdp06.ukgateway.net/f1_travel.htm I have checked all i can check. I will be trailering this into Currys Auto this week. I appreciate all you have told me. I am convinced that it must be a sensor that is not sending the right message and causing the computer to abort the engine from running. I will post one last summary once they fix it with what they found and how they fixed it. Thanks all Mjones > A week ago i changed the battery out. It ran that day and the next. > The following day it did not start. it seems to want to start, for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > keep changing out parts until it works. I have no clue, any > suggestions would be great. Speed and reference sensors? http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=292018&highlight=reference If your fuel injectors aren't atomizing the fuel and running cleaner doesn't help, you can try sending them to an outfit called WitchHunter to be tested, cleaned, and rebuilt if needed. Haven't used them myself but I've heard nothing but good about them. Much cheaper than new injectors. > I have checked all i can check. I will be trailering this into Currys > Auto this week. I appreciate all you have told me. I am convinced [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > keep changing out parts until it works. I have no clue, any > > suggestions would be great. I had good luck cleaning clogged injectors (they actually squirted nothing) as follows: 1. remove injector 2. remove plastic cover and o-ring over end of injector 3. use rubber tipped air gun, blow air backwards through injector (point other end away from your eyes) - repeat several times until no more "crud" comes out 4. fill injector with spray carb cleaner, let it sit for several minutes 5. pressurize injector using the rubber tipped air gun, and use the back of your finger nail to press up on the injector plunger (looks like a needle sticking out the end of the injector - moves about .010 inches). 6. repeat #5 several times for each injector 7. re-install, using new o-rings and plastic cover > Speed and reference sensors? > http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=292018&highlight=reference [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> > keep changing out parts until it works. I have no clue, any >> > suggestions would be great. 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