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Car Forum / Porsche / Porshe 944 / January 200784 944 Oil in air cleaner
I looked through the pdf parts diagram and I can't tell for sure if the early 944's have a pcv valve or not. I just pulled the air cleaner and found a puddle of oil in the cleaner box. It appears to be dripping through the throttle body. I'm assuming this could be from a clogged pcv valve or a collapsed vacuum hose. This engine does have qiute a few miles on it and I haven't done a compression check yet but it still runs strong and seems ok. The other related problem is a rythmic noise at light throttle when parked and hot. I'm thinking a rod bearing but I'm also exploring timing belt slap and maybe even a pcv valve clattering. Thoughts? did you download the porsche factory service manual for your car from the site in the UK that has it as a PDF? it will answer some of your question - I have an S that has this "feature" - I think it's due to worn valve guides on my car, but not sure >I looked through the pdf parts diagram and I can't tell for sure if the > early 944's have a pcv valve or not. I just pulled the air cleaner and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > bearing but I'm also exploring timing belt slap and maybe even a pcv > valve clattering. Thoughts?  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Breather hose from timing belts housing is transfering oil vapors to the air cleaner. You probably need to replace the main bearing seal and the two balance shaft seals. If you have more than 40000 on current set of timing belts then you need to replace them along with the various pulleys. Oil dripping from throttle housing? Air flow valve? You are seeing the results of a bad oil leak in the belt housing somewhere. Old pulleys make a lot of noise when worn out on this engine. Ok, but what I don't get is why I don't see oil dripping from the belt housing or even a wet oil misting in the belt housing. I'd suspect if there is enough to go back up and condense in the air cleaner to form a puddle I'd see it in the housing too. > Breather hose from timing belts housing is transfering oil vapors to > the air cleaner. You probably need to replace the main bearing seal [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Old pulleys make a lot of noise when worn out on this engine. Your reasoning is correct but I think the oil may only be leaking after the engine gets hot. Also, there is a time element involved. What mass of oil do you find in the air cleaner for what time period? Days, months? Does the engine use any oil? What kind of oil are you using? You may have worn valve guides, which is normal for a car of that age/mileage. Here's what could be happening: Over time, from the valves moving up and down in the valve guides in the head, the guides get a little worn. These guides are lubricated with oil, but they do eventually wear... Anyhow, when the guides get worn oil can be sucked out -- sucked out, because the piston's up and down movement creates suction (this is what generates manifold vacuum pressure). For example, let's say the throttle body is closed at idle. 3 intake valves are closed, and 1 is opened while that cylinder is sucking air into the combustion chamber. The valves have their valve guides exposed where the intake manifold bolts to the head, so the suction from the piston behind the one open valve will cause a little oil to seep out of the remaining three guides, because the closed throttle body only lets in a wee little bit of air. A little droplet here and there will come out of the guides and over time, it all adds up. In the turbulent environment of the intake manifold, where the throttle body is opening and closing, creating different levels of manifold vacuum, this oil eventually coats everything, and will eventually create a little puddle at the throttle body -- one of the low points of the system (on turbos, the intercooler, and the turbo charger, are also low points.). Some of this oil will get consumed by the engine under normal combustion, some will not combust and will come out as smoke, and some will drip around in the intake tract. If someone is following you, like at the track, and they see a little puff of smoke at each shift point, that's a good sign of worn valve guides. When you shift, you take your foot off the gas, which closes the throttle body, which creates a lot of vacuum, which causes some oil to be sucked into the combustion chambers, which comes out as smoke. Unless it's excessive, and the back of your car gets black and oily from regular driving, I wouldn't worry about it. You'll spend a lot of money and just wind up minimizing the problem. So, save your money and enjoy the car for what it is -- a fun car that can deliver a lot of performance! Good luck! > Your reasoning is correct but I think the oil may only be leaking after > the engine gets hot. Also, there is a time element involved. What > mass of oil do you find in the air cleaner for what time period? Days, > months? > Does the engine use any oil? > What kind of oil are you using? Ok, well, I think it is time for the story behind this car so the folks of this group who are way more knoweledgeable about 944s can chime in. Here goes... Picked up this car locally in Rochester NY about 2 months ago. Didn't pay a whole lot for it but probably should have paid less (I paid $1300). It seemed to run well, vibrated while idling (I'm assuming bad motor mounts) but the big flaw was that the transmission only worked in 1,3,5. No 2,4,R and the guy had driven it this way for a year supposedly that way. The dealer claimed $500+ to fix it. I brought it home on the trailer and found a few other problems like wipers not working, door locks keyed differently etc. Spent about 30 minutes and found a c-clip off the shift linkage and now I got 1,2,3,4,5,R! Problem 1 fixed. Next I tackled the wipers... yep, bad fuse. This guy had just used RainX instead but while I like RainX I also like working wipers. There is also a bunch of stupid cosmetic stuff that I'm fixing along with things like the tach not working and a few others. However, after driving it more now that I had all the gears I finally got it warmed all the way up and found a rod knock (or some noise) that appears on light throttle in neutral. Using the stethescope it appears loudest up by the distributer but it is not lifter noise or injector noise (those are clearly distinct from this hollow rythmic thud). I wanted to see what shape the timing belt was in which is why I started to pull the air filter box out and that is when I found the oil in the bottom. I had recently changed the oil with castrol 10W40 and a quart of Rislone to help clean this engine out. It appeared to be abused over the years although it runs well, doesn't seem to smoke much and the plugs all look pretty good. I haven't done a compression check yet but I think that is the next thing to do to see how good or bad this engine really is. Any other thoughts? Thanks --ken > Your reasoning is correct but I think the oil may only be leaking after > the engine gets hot. Also, there is a time element involved. What > mass of oil do you find in the air cleaner for what time period? Days, > months? > Does the engine use any oil? > What kind of oil are you using? I wouldn't be too surprised to discover that your "knock" was a bad idler pulley for either timing or balance shaft belt, or a loose belt (does this have the spring loaded tensioner or the old style?) I'd suspect valve seals for the oil, and would probably ignore it. these are just guesses, mind you > Ok, well, I think it is time for the story behind this car so the > folks of this group who are way more knoweledgeable about 944s can [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >> Does the engine use any oil? >> What kind of oil are you using? SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Old style tensioner. I'm in the process of removing the timing belt cover so I can watch what is happening when it starts to knock. I'm also planning on changing the belt while I have it apart. > I wouldn't be too surprised to discover that your "knock" was a bad idler > pulley for either timing or balance shaft belt, or a loose belt (does this [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > >> Does the engine use any oil? > >> What kind of oil are you using? Hi Ken, overall, it sounds like you got a pretty good deal on the car, since the wipers and transmission have been easy (and cheap) to fix. Let's say the car needs another $1000 bucks over the next year (timing belts, engine mounts, misc stuff, etc.) -- I think you still did well. My rule of thumb is that an early 944 is about a $3k to $4k car -- you either spend that much on a good one, or you end up putting that much money into a cheap one. A good source of used parts is 944ecology, although George's prices are a little high... but he has pretty much everything (I've been to his house, and never seen so many 944 parts!) Does your knocking noise sound like it's in the head or in the block? Let us know what your compression values are, and perhaps do a leak down test if you have the equipment (that will tell you the health of the rings). Those early engines are know for starving rod bearing #2 (on the crank) if the oil level is too low. Rebuilding the lower end of the engine isn't impossible, but a little expensive, time consuming, and you have to be careful. If the body and interior are in good shape, I'd recommend driving and enjoying the car, and if the knock gets worse, perhaps looking for a used engine to put in... But that's only if it really an internal rod knock. Hopefully it'll turn out to be something like the idler bearing suggested above! Perhaps I'll see you at Watkins Glen some time. Good luck! > Old style tensioner. I'm in the process of removing the timing belt > cover so I can watch what is happening when it starts to knock. I'm [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > -- > > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Watkins Glen would be great. Back when I lived in CA I was able to drive at Riverside International and Willow Springs. Since you are local, this 944 is that champaign gold color. I'm hoping someone can give me a clue as to it's history. Supposedly it came from a guy who had 3 at one time and sold all three as a lot. I'm sure If I find one of the earlier owners I might get a better clue as to what else is wrong with it. I'll get the timing cover off over the weekend and then see what is making the noise. Thanks for the lead for more parts. if you haven't tensioned one of the old style tensioners before, here's the procedure I use: 1. set it "about right" by feel - should be like any fan belt 2. run engine at idle and listen - if it whines, it's too tight, loosen a bit and try again 3. bring RPM up to at least 3500 (slowly) and watch the belt - if it flaps around, it's too loose, tighten it a bit it is very helpful to make a thin wrench to fit on that oddly shaped nut on the tensioner/idler - I don't remember the dimensions off the top of my head. Remember, too loose, and you will skip a tooth or two and destroy the engine, too tight and you will destroy the bearings, the idler comes off and you will destroy the engine - well not really "destroy the engine", just break some valves and have the opportunity to rebuild the head and fix the valve seals. there are some DIY's on the internet discussing setting the tension without the $500 tool - it sounds like you know what you are doing, so you should be OK. > Old style tensioner. I'm in the process of removing the timing belt > cover so I can watch what is happening when it starts to knock. I'm [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> > folks of this group who are way more knoweledgeable about 944s can >> > chime in. Here goes... snip SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Old style tensioner. I'm in the process of removing the timing belt > cover so I can watch what is happening when it starts to knock. I'm [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > for the oil, and would probably ignore it. > > these are just guesses, mind you While William's idea on the knock is a good one, beware of doing the timing belts yourself on a 944. The 944 engine is an "interferance" engine - which means that if it breaks/slips/etc, the valves and pistons collide and cause a lot of internal engine damage. The timing and balance belts must be replaced every 30k miles. The pulleys, rollers, and whatnot every 60k miles. After replacement, the belts must be retensioned about 2000 miles later. Some also retension at 15k miles. It is normal for them to whine a little after (re)tensioning. The whine goes away as they stretch a bit. The proper way to tension the belts is to use "The Tool" - which is about a $500 part. So it is best to seek out a mechanic who works on a lot of 944s (and/or 928s) that has one. (Ask him to show it to you, because you've heard "it is kinda neat looking".) Yes, there are some who may think they can use a more inexpensive tool, or even possibly "by feel". But realise that such shortcuts can add a lot of risk to your engines longevity. If you have no maint history on your car, consider having the timing belts replaced Real Soon. Walt - '86 944 NA I know all about the interference problem of the engine and I know that if you tension it too tightly it destroys the water pump bearing. I'm surprised that they didn't come up with a real fix for that engine along it's relatively long life. I guess they just like to give the shops some recurring income :-). I'm going to order a belt/pully kit to replace all of the belts and all of the pulleys. > > Old style tensioner. I'm in the process of removing the timing belt > > cover so I can watch what is happening when it starts to knock. I'm [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Walt - '86 944 NA I'll leave it to you to follow walt's advice or my approach - I have done 944s for a while, bought my 85.5 new, it's still going with 250K miles, bought one for each daughter, and have resurrected others - I've never used the tool, never had a problem due to incorrect tension - I did once fracture a plastic tensioning roller on a late style tensioner (the first time I worked on a car with one) and that caused a "spontaneous" valve job, shall we say. The water pump bearing is not the thing that goes if you over tension, it is the tensioner bearing - I know this because the first time I did the belts I did overtension it and that's what failed - fortunately, the balance shaft turns at 2X the engine speed, so it is the balance shaft tensioner that goes first (if you get uniform tension). Yes, there is a little whine on a properly tensioned belt, but not much. If you really want to, you can get a $10 gates belt tension tool (recommeded for my 993, by the way - it's the same as the porsche part for checking belt tension on 993) and use that - check a known properly tensioned belt and then set yours the same - but honestly, if you have a good feel for belt tension, you'll have no problem. And, the cost of a valve job is less than most mechanics would charge you for labor to change the belts...... your choice >I know all about the interference problem of the engine and I know that > if you tension it too tightly it destroys the water pump bearing. I'm [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >> >> Walt - '86 944 NA SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Where do I get the gates belt tensioning tool? I was thinking of making one myself but if there is a decent one out there I will just measure the current tension and then replicate it. Here is a stupid question that I have yet to figure out. Remember this is a early one, not a 85.5 and up version... How do I get the 'defrost' setting to work? There are two levers on the upper side of the heater control and one below. The lower one goes directly to the heater valve (and I need to replace the cable as it is bent) and each of the upper ones seems to independently adjust the balance between the floor and the dash registers. Neither seems to get air out of the window defrost vents at the windshield/dash junction. What else is left? --Ken > I'll leave it to you to follow walt's advice or my approach - I have done > 944s for a while, bought my 85.5 new, it's still going with 250K miles, [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > >> > >> Walt - '86 944 NA don't remember the setup on the older cars for defrost, but you can fix the cable, no need to replace. I bought the gates tool at my local auto parts store my receipt says "GAT 91107" on it, and I paid 9.95 for it - its a little silver tool that you press against a belt until it clicks, then you read the tension off the tool. I haven't tried it on a 944, I've always just set the tension by feel. I've thought about manufacturing a copy of the $500 tool - using a harbor freight dial indicator ($10) and a spring or two - if someone has some dimensions on the "real" tool, that would be helpful, and I can think about how to make it. > Where do I get the gates belt tensioning tool? I was thinking of > making one myself but if there is a decent one out there I will just [quoted text clipped - 101 lines] >> >> >> >> Walt - '86 944 NA SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com I agree about making a replacement for the $500 tool. These cars are declining in value such that buying a $500 tool for tensioning the belt seems rediculous. And, I have to ask, what is so different with the 944 compared to any other timing belt motor that does not have a spring loaded tensioner? I know there were other interference engines that had the same problem but I don't remember a special $500 tool involved. Does anyone have a picture of the said porsche tool? I should look at the Harbor Fright website and see if they already have a tensioning tool. The seem to have just about everything else cheaper than you can make it! --k > don't remember the setup on the older cars for defrost, but you can fix the > cable, no need to replace. [quoted text clipped - 116 lines] > >> -- > >> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com photo of tool is in the service manual, but there are no dimensions - you need to machine some aluminum, add spring and pins and use a dial indicator to read out tension - but I need the dimensions for the outer two pins - what is the separation >I agree about making a replacement for the $500 tool. These cars are > declining in value such that buying a $500 tool for tensioning the belt [quoted text clipped - 158 lines] >> >> -- >> >> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Actually, it isn't hard to calculate it. Simple math works given a spring tension and a dial indicator. The only unknown is how far you can deflect the belt without significantly changing the tension. > photo of tool is in the service manual, but there are no dimensions - you > need to machine some aluminum, add spring and pins and use a dial indicator [quoted text clipped - 166 lines] > >> -- > >> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Have you thought about updating your car for the new, automatic tensioner? I'm not sure what would be involved... maybe taping or thread inserting an extra hole or two... I don't know if there is material on the block... so don't jump down my throat if there's not! :) Anyhow, I've borrowed that tensioning tool in the past and used it on several automatic tensioners, and found that the automatic tensioner was right on the money. So I don't ever worry about using the tool, or finding a substitute. BTW, I frequent Watkins Glen, but I'm not that local -- I'm in Poughkeepsie (half way between albany and NYC). Also order a front main seal and change it while you do the belts. Good luck! > Actually, it isn't hard to calculate it. Simple math works given a > spring tension and a dial indicator. The only unknown is how far you [quoted text clipped - 173 lines] > > -- > > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com that was how I planned on calibrating the tool if I ever made one - but I still would want to know the pin spacing. And, even with the auto tensioner, the tool would be helpful to tension the balance shaft belt > Have you thought about updating your car for the new, automatic > tensioner? I'm not sure what would be involved... maybe taping or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > was right on the money. So I don't ever worry about using the tool, or > finding a substitute. big snip SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com I'm going to try and find one of the gates tools and go from there for tensioning the belt. On the topic of the rod bearings, can I pull the pan without too much work and without removing the engine? How hard are the old pan gaskets to get cleaned off? I can only imagine what a job that might be if those old gaskets are glued on. > that was how I planned on calibrating the tool if I ever made one - but I > still would want to know the pin spacing. And, even with the auto [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > big snip I haven't had to do this, but it looks to me like you can drop the front cross axle (or whatever you call that aluminum thing under the engine) and have enough room to work - don't sweat the gasket removal, that will be the least of your problems, I'm sure. > I'm going to try and find one of the gates tools and go from there for > tensioning the belt. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to get cleaned off? I can only imagine what a job that might be if > those old gaskets are glued on. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com You can change the rod bearings from down below, but it's probably not the best method, I'll explain why in a minute. If you want to take the oil pan off with the engine in the car, that sub frame does need to come out. Now, that sub frame is what hold the engine IN, or more accurately the engine mounts bolt to the sub frame, so you have to make sure the engine is supported from up above. (a piece of pipe, some chain and 2x4's can do the trick.) You also have to undo the control arms and will need an alignment when you're done. The oil pan gasket is a thick rubber one that has little metal bosses in it where the bolts go through -- see this picture: http://catimages2.sophio.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/imc/images/full/944101205 02.jpg There's no glue or anything holding it in place, so it should come right off. Now, about those rod bearings, this would be the time to change them, and probably better to change them rather than leave them behind, but in a perfect world, you want to do all of this in a very controlled environment (read as: not on your back in your driveway with the car on jack stands) where you can measure the old and new bearings to compare thicknesses, measure the crank journals, inspect for damage and wear, perhaps use plasti-gauge to measure the fit of the new ones, etc. In short, if you're really contemplating changing the rod bearings because you want to freshen the car up and have it performing in peak condition for many years to come, you'd be better off to take the engine completely out and do a thorough job replacing all the seals, gaskets, bearings, rings, etc. If, however, you're changing the bearings because there is real damage, like a spun bearing, then there is probably damage to the crank and the crank bearings should also be replaced, which is far easier to do with the engine out... Now, if you're just patching up a broken car to sell, or some other quickie fix, then by all means, do a half-assed job, but I don't think that's what you're going for. Good luck! > I'm going to try and find one of the gates tools and go from there for > tensioning the belt. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > -- > > Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > I agree about making a replacement for the $500 tool. The fabled 9201 belt tensioning tool? > And, I have to ask, what is so different with the > 944 compared to any other timing belt motor that does not have a spring > loaded tensioner? I know there were other interference engines that > had the same problem but I don't remember a special $500 tool involved. That would be the fabled "Porsche markup". > Does anyone have a picture of the said porsche tool? Try googling "Porsche 9201" or 9201 in google images. If you don't want to pay $500 or make your own tool, Bruce Arnn has made a substitute: http://www.arnnworx.com/ I've heard only good things about it, and it's on my list for the next few months. Ok.. here is a stupid question that I'm sure has been answered somewhere... What is the desired tension for the belts (new, used, timing, balance) in some standard unit of measure (lbs, kg, etc). I think i have a way to make a very simple gauge that will be very easy to read and build. Also, can one visually inspect a belt and determine the condition? I've never had a belt fail in recent history (knock on wood now) but I normally change them when they start to look worn. Do these timing belts just fail for no obvious reason or do they slowly wear out and since they are hidden beneth the cover no one notices until they do fail? Thanks --K > > I agree about making a replacement for the $500 tool. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I've heard only good things about it, and it's on my list for the next > few months. you cannot tell from outside when the internal cords are weakened - just change them every 30K miles > Ok.. here is a stupid question that I'm sure has been answered > somewhere... What is the desired tension for the belts (new, used, [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> I've heard only good things about it, and it's on my list for the next >> few months. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Age is also a factor, since rubber dries out. I met a guy last year in my region that has an S2 - '89 or something like that. He bought it new and drives it, literally, around the block a few times a year. In nearly 20 years, he only has 2,200 miles on it! That's right two thousand-two hundred. He hasn't changed the oil yet... because it's not at 3000 miles! In fact, it's never had any maintenance -- every piece of rubber, including the tires are original! A time bomb waiting to happen in my book! Anyhow, the point is: if you drive the car regularly, 30k miles is a good time to change those belts, but, since most of these cars aren't driven that much, maybe every 5 years is a better answer. If you DO an inspection, and it you can see hairline cracks between the teeth where the belt bends around backwards over the water pump -- change it. Or, when in doubt (perhaps you're a new owner, perhaps you don't trust the last mechanic) change it. I met a woman recently who has a 944 for sale "cheap". On October 13, a Friday, of course, she was driving, and turning left at a stop light. The belt snapped, and she coasted to a stop. If you have to pay a shop to fix that, it could exceed the value of the car. Of course, if you have a spare head sitting around, it's a bargain! :) > you cannot tell from outside when the internal cords are weakened - just > change them every 30K miles -snip- > Age is also a factor, since rubber dries out. I met a guy last year in > my region that has an S2 - '89 or something like that. He bought it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > A time bomb waiting to happen in my book! seriously. If he really hasn't changed the oil, the engine is probably scrap due to bearing corrosion. Sad. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel I haven't seen an answer about the actual tension yet. Is that documented somewhere? Or is it just calibrated in 'porsche tension units'? > > Age is also a factor, since rubber dries out. I met a guy last year in > > my region that has an S2 - '89 or something like that. He bought it [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > replace "fly" with "com" to reply. > http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel do you have a copy of the factory service manual? it tells you the exact settings of the magic tool to use. And, the GATES tool has settings as a function of belt type/width in it's little manual >I haven't seen an answer about the actual tension yet. Is that > documented somewhere? Or is it just calibrated in 'porsche tension [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> replace "fly" with "com" to reply. >> http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Is there a 'magic tool' setting to real world setting conversion somewhere? As I said, it would be nice to have the tension in some standard unit of measure as opposed to some arbitrary setting # on the custom porsche tool. Kinda reminds me of Spinal Tap and their amplifier that went to 11 so it was louder! > do you have a copy of the factory service manual? it tells you the exact > settings of the magic tool to use. And, the GATES tool has settings as a [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >> replace "fly" with "com" to reply. > >> http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel I think the tension is supposed to be ZERO when done correctly. I have driven two 944's. My 1983 944 had 550,000 miles on her when George B got her for scrap. Only because some kid ran into the rear and took out the rear axle shaft that I had just finished putting in. I never ever changed the belts at regular intervals. I merely waited for the water pumps to fail, or front engine bearings and pulleys to need service, then changed the belts with that job - and I never had a belt break - which may be a result of using the Porsche tension tool to tighten the belts. Also FYI, I also never was very serious about changing the oil regularly - I just followed the manual's recommendations and I think that's something like 6 - 8000 miles. Now that 944 had the original engine for the life of the car! I did have the main bearings replaced when I put in a new engine pan gasket at around 300,000 miles...and the bearings were cheap. These cars are way to babied by Porschies - i.e - never driving in the rain, etc. My car was driven EVERY day - including half its life in NYC and driven in NYC top and go traffic. I drove my baby in snowstorms, rain and hell. It was a great car. First clutch lasted 120,000 miles....second clutch lasted 430,000 miles and it still had surface left. Which proves if you can clutch well the clutch should last the life of the car. My 2nd 944 is '87 and automatic. Purchased at 100,000 miles - she is an automatic...god forbid...but a great automatic, and fun to go fast off the light with. Besides the damper being replaced when I first got her, she was basically broken in at 150,000 - and now has 250,000 miles on her. Serious problems this board should know are that the BRAIN computer and the cruise control gets cold solder joints...really. The brain surprisingly, was MUCH easier to solder (the large connections are the ones!) and fix...(Rap the box in an emergency) than the cruise control. That computer brain caused a lot of problems, causing a tow to my friendly Porsche mechanic (Advanced Auto, New Windsor, NY - the best!) Was it a spark cable? A coil? Spark plugs? What I could not figure it out --- until I put in a test computer on a trip in Fla about 1500 miles from home. So be sure to always remember that ^&*#!#$ computer. Signaturejoliett -------- > Is there a 'magic tool' setting to real world setting conversion > somewhere? As I said, it would be nice to have the tension in some [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >> >> replace "fly" with "com" to reply. >> >> http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel Very dangerous misinformation in this post, PLEASE SEE AREAS MARKED IN ALL CAPS >I think the tension is supposed to be ZERO when done correctly. <<< >ABSOLUTELY WRONG, CAN LEAD TO ENGINE DESTRUCTION VERY QUICKLY [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > out --- until I put in a test computer on a trip in Fla about 1500 miles > from home. So be sure to always remember that ^&*#!#$ computer. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com RE: William Noble's response This is PRECISELY why I posted that information - because there are certain drivers out there that MAKE UP THEIR OWN RULES and think they know everything. Changing the engine oil at 3000 miles on a normally driven Porsche is a waste of our natural resources, our landfills, and a waste of money. I didn't make this rule - Porsche engineers made this rule. The designers of the great Porsche engines made this rule. Check out you owner's manual and follow its recommendations. Besides I have had great success with over 550,000 miles on my last 944 following the manuals recommendations. And that doesn't include cooling system problems when the car was relatively new. So who's recommendation do you follow? Me? Your dad (3000 miles - what a waste)? OR do you follow the manufacturer's owners manual. Seems like a simple and easy choice. BTW, OBVIOUSLY we're not talking raced Porsche's here. Here is what the manual says - and I quote: Change oil and filter every 15000 miles for normally aspirated 944 cars - and at least ONCE A YEAR. Regarding the clutch center - I HAD the RUBBER CENTER - and that's BS that the rubber disintegrates in 10 years. I had that rubber center clutch for 20 years and the rubber center was not worn. What will break the rubber center could be an actual car accident or maybe from "popping" the clutch. AND WHEN THE RUBBER CENTER FAILS it does NOT destroy the engine. (What BS.) It failed on my manual AND automatic transmission 944's. Porsche designed the clutch to slip to a mechanical steel stop designed in the clutch center around the rubber center. You can actually drive the car - for the remaining life of the car and not have ANY mechanical problems other than noise and vibration. As a matter of fact - on the manual 944 you may not even know it failed...until you replace the clutch - I didn't. So there - it's experience that counts, it's following the owner's manual - it's 550,000 miles on a daily driven Porsche that wasn't babied for a minute. 3000 mile oil changes are things of the past - unless you own an oil change shop. Signaturejoliett -------- > Very dangerous misinformation in this post, PLEASE SEE AREAS MARKED IN > ALL CAPS [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >> out --- until I put in a test computer on a trip in Fla about 1500 miles >> from home. So be sure to always remember that ^&*#!#$ computer. you know, I wasn't going to bother following up on this, but, it is interesting that you cannot quote my posts correctly 1. oil change - I said I didn't have the manual handy - if you are truthfully quoting the manual, then go for it. In general following manual's recomendations won't get you in trouble. However, infrequently driven cars require more frequent oil change for several reasons which I am not going to elaborate on - anyone who cares can do their own research. And, recylcling oil does not wast landfills - I don't know what YOU do with old oil, I do know what I do. 2. I didn't bother taking photos, but based on my sample of cars, failure of the rubber centered clutch DOES NOT go as you suggest - in one case, the increased impact load from metal on metal contact led, I believe (no, this is not a verified hypothesis) to failure of the pinion gear in my trans, which was pretty fatal to the transmission. In another case, the welded on tabs didn't hold the rotation, and the car just would not go. Maybe YOU can drive the car for the remaining life of the car, many other people cannot do so. 3. if you choose to re-read the post that has so righteously annoyed you, you will find NO reference to destroying the engine, you will find a reference to destroying the transmission. feel free to rant and rave all you want, I stand by my recommendations - I think I probably have more 944s than you have, and probably have had them longer, but frankly I don't care to argue with you and degrade this rather pleasant NG. Those who wish to do so can follow my suggestions, or they can follow yours. > RE: William Noble's response > [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] >>> out --- until I put in a test computer on a trip in Fla about 1500 miles >>> from home. So be sure to always remember that ^&*#!#$ computer. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com 1. Recycle oil - you are partially correct about not hurting landfills from the oil, but the CONTAINERS do hurt landfills, and especially since many "empty" oil containers contain some oil in there too. 2. I drove my first manual 83-944 for maybe 40,000 miles after the rubber disk was broken in an accident until the clutch surface wore out. I drove my 1987-944 automatic for about 200 miles after the rubber disk disintegrated. This is pretty nice NG and I read it regularly - and maybe you do have more 944's than I do, but do you drive them? When I need NG advise I really do appreciate your advise. Signaturejoliett -------- > you know, I wasn't going to bother following up on this, but, it is > interesting that you cannot quote my posts correctly [quoted text clipped - 117 lines] >>>> out --- until I put in a test computer on a trip in Fla about 1500 >>>> miles from home. So be sure to always remember that ^&*#!#$ computer. well, I guess I rarely drive a 944 any more - I gave the one I bought new to my brother (he drives it every day) and I bought one for each daughter (they drive theirs every day), but my current transportation car is air cooled. So, no, I don't drive them. That said, I still stand my my caution about the clutch. snip > This is pretty nice NG and I read it regularly - and maybe you do have > more 944's than I do, but do you drive them? When I need NG advise I > really do appreciate your advise. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com William, I think some of the advice given by a previous poster was indeed a bit suspect. Normal oil changes are 3K miles and while oil has gotten better, what contanimates it has not. As cars age (as is my 944) blowby becomes significant and changing the oil every 10K is not the best thing. And yes, recycling oil is good. Most of us do not pour it on our driveways like we did 40 years ago. I think someone above needs to buy a solar powered car and leave the rest of us alone. Btw, I'm currently in the process of pulling the pan to check out the rod bearings. If they are too shot then I'm going to pull the whole engine and rebuild it from scratch. --Ken > well, I guess I rarely drive a 944 any more - I gave the one I bought new to > my brother (he drives it every day) and I bought one for each daughter (they [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > joliett > > -------- gk, point is - where do you get that magick 3000 miles number from anyway? you sure it's not from your father's car's specs, or from the local oil change shop - because years ago, (maybe 40?) that may have been spec. but now it's 12,000 miles before oil changes. why? because that's what the Porsche engineers specify. simple. if you tow or race - than it's certainly more frequent. But I did NYC frequent stop and go driving - and long interstate drives ----- Porsche rules. oh yea - how do i know? because I put in the cheapest Wal-Mart 10x40 oil and the cheapest and lowest grade gas I can find - and lo and behold - my last 1983 944 lasted to 550,000 and was going to another 100,000. really. My new one a 1987 - 944 has 250,000 and it drives like a dream... These cars are built like little trucks - and what great cars they are. And William - you a certainly are a 944 family - my kind of family. What car do you drive now? joliett > William, > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >> > joliett >> > -------- if you browse around my web site, www.wbnoble.com, you may be able to infer what I'm driving now, I'll leave that as a homework assignment since it is irrelevant to the group. I will point out though that some cars (like the one I drive now) with a recommended 15K mile oil change interval require synthetic oil and also use a lot of it (12 qts), whereas the 944 doesn't and uses only 6 qts. Further, combustion products work their way past the rings into the oil. If you are driving 100 miles each way to work, each day, I'd say you are good to go for 10k miles on your 944, but if you drive 1 mile each way you are well advised to change closer to the 3K point. Proof, of a sorts - if you have a high mileage car that you drive only short distances, it may seem to use no oil - then you take it out on a long (8 hour high speed) drive and suddenly you are down 3 quarts - what happened? No, the car didn't suddenly start burning oil, what happened is that the voliatile combustion products that had disolved in the oil evaporated and left because the oil got hot enough and stayed hot enough long enough. Frankly, If I have to put in $6 worth of oil after 3 to 5 K miles, and change the $15 filter every other oil change, no problem, it's cheap insurance and known to work. On the other hand, if I have to put in $60 of mobile 1, two filters at $20 each, and take the car half way apart to do it, then I'm really glad to do it only 1/5 as often. > gk, > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] >>> > joliett >>> > -------- SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Had the same problem with my '89. Actually the identicle same symptoms. It turned out to be my flex disc. It is the rubber dampener between the engine and half shaft. Bad news if it is indeed a bad disc. $1250.00 by a non-dealership Porsche Specialist. Car was beautiful after the repair though. Best of luck. Fred > Ok, well, I think it is time for the story behind this car so the > folks of this group who are way more knoweledgeable about 944s can [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >> Does the engine use any oil? >> What kind of oil are you using? |
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