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Car Forum / Porsche / Porshe 944 / November 2007

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porsche 924S emissions test failure

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ignatz - 08 Nov 2007 00:29 GMT
Hi ! Can anyone out there help me on NOx readings on my 924S?  Just barely
passed a year ago - now 1850 where max. is 1250- runs great - maybe just a
little hot - any ideas are appreciated. It is driven about 2000 miles a
month, so not from disuse.   thanx,  ignatz

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William Noble - 08 Nov 2007 02:09 GMT
if you have the timing adjust switch, then change it to the more retarded
position - there is description on the web, I don't know if your dme has
this switch or not

> Hi ! Can anyone out there help me on NOx readings on my 924S?  Just barely
> passed a year ago - now 1850 where max. is 1250- runs great - maybe just a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.porsche.944/
> More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.html

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Walter Spector - 08 Nov 2007 17:49 GMT
> Hi ! Can anyone out there help me on NOx readings on my 924S?  Just barely
> passed a year ago - now 1850 where max. is 1250- runs great - maybe just a
> little hot - any ideas are appreciated...

The only time my 944 ever failed smog, it was due to a tired O2 sensor.

Walt - 86 944 NA
alordofchaos@yahoo.com - 09 Nov 2007 15:32 GMT
> Hi ! Can anyone out there help me on NOx readings on my 924S?  Just barely
> passed a year ago - now 1850 where max. is 1250- runs great - maybe just a
> little hot - any ideas are appreciated. It is driven about 2000 miles a
> month, so not from disuse.   thanx,  ignatz

It could be 02 sensor running the car lean - they're a 30k miles
service item.

Make sure your exhaust is hot when you test... running an hour on the
highway right before testing might help the cat. You might also want
to make sure your cat is OK, not plugged, etc

Could also be a vacuum leak causing a lean condition.
William Noble - 10 Nov 2007 07:00 GMT
let me try saying this again - NOX is not an O2 sensor issue - it's timing
related, retarding the timing will fix the problem, just flip the switch to
the retarded position
>> Hi ! Can anyone out there help me on NOx readings on my 924S?  Just
>> barely
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Could also be a vacuum leak causing a lean condition.

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dave AKA vwdoc1 - 10 Nov 2007 16:11 GMT
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2000/ic60032.htm
Harder to diagnose are elevated oxides of nitrogen (NOX) emissions. Causes
here may include a defective EGR valve, EGR vacuum solenoid or motor,
plugged EGR ports in the manifold, over-advanced ignition timing or engine
overheating.

read here too  http://www.car-forums.com/s9/t2590.html

> let me try saying this again - NOX is not an O2 sensor issue - it's timing
> related, retarding the timing will fix the problem, just flip the switch
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>>
>> Could also be a vacuum leak causing a lean condition.
William Noble - 11 Nov 2007 05:14 GMT
unless the 924 is really unusual, there is no egr valve and no egr solenoid
every 944 I've looked at, and it's several, is the same as far as absense of
egr.  I'm not going to chime in on this again, the OP can take my advise or
leave it, it's worked on any number of cars, but they were all 44 not 24 -
make the special tool, and turn the switch in the computer to the more
retarded position

> http://www.aa1car.com/library/2000/ic60032.htm
> Harder to diagnose are elevated oxides of nitrogen (NOX) emissions. Causes
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>>>
>>> Could also be a vacuum leak causing a lean condition.

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dave AKA vwdoc1 - 11 Nov 2007 19:48 GMT
I have seen some VWs that had EGR valves but were only designed for the CA
state emissions.  I rarely see these VWs with EGRs but I do from time to
time.  ;-)
Only the OP can find out if this engine might have one.  I doubt it has one,
but it is good to check anyway.

It also indicates over-advanced ign timing and/or an engine that is too hot.
Could the engine be clogged with deposits on the intake valves?  Maybe a
good long run with some Sea-Foam in the gas tank or other cleaning agent.

Doesn't NOx come from an exhaust that is just too hot, along with other
factors?
Maybe if the cleaning of the intake valves and pistons don't work then maybe
reducing the engine temperature.  I think the OP said that the engine was
running warmer than normal.
Hmmm maybe water injection.  <g>

http://autos.yahoo.com/maintain/repairqa/exhaust_muffler/ques078_0.html
Oxides Of Nitrogen (nox)
Nitrogen makes up about 78% of the air we breathe. Though normally inert and
not directly involved in the combustion process, combustion temperatures
above 2500 degrees F cause nitrogen and oxygen to combine and form various
compounds called "oxides of nitrogen," which is abbreviated NOX. This mostly
occurs when the engine is under load and the throttle is open wide.

On 1981 and later engines with computerized engine controls, a special
"three-way" catalytic converter is used to reduce NOX in the exhaust. The
first chamber of the converter contains a special "reduction" catalyst that
breaks NOX down into oxygen and nitrogen. The second chamber contains the
"oxidation" catalyst that reburns CO and HC.

I'm still learning this stuff!
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later,
dave
(One out of many daves)

> unless the 924 is really unusual, there is no egr valve and no egr
> solenoid
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>>>>
>>>> Could also be a vacuum leak causing a lean condition.
William Noble - 12 Nov 2007 06:32 GMT
I know I said I wouldn't chime in again - let me point out that a 924S is
not a VW, and it really does't matter what VW used to meet california
emission standards, that timing is controlled by the computer, there is no
mechanical timing adjustment, and that NOx does NOT come from a hot exhaust,
it is a combustion product

>I have seen some VWs that had EGR valves but were only designed for the CA
>state emissions.  I rarely see these VWs with EGRs but I do from time to
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>>>>>
>>>>> Could also be a vacuum leak causing a lean condition.

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ignatz - 13 Nov 2007 04:04 GMT
Thanx for info so far- I have indeed seen no EGR valve on engine, or in my
manual - where is this timing retard switch?  I would be happy to try it -
thanx again,  ignatz

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William Noble - 13 Nov 2007 06:37 GMT
do a search for NOX failure and similar phrases - the switch is on the side
of the computer - you have to make a special tool (out of a toothpick or
some such thing) and you have to turn it to exactly the right position - I
don't rmemeber the details - if you can't find it on the web, then let me
know and I'll look for you

> Thanx for info so far- I have indeed seen no EGR valve on engine, or in my
> manual - where is this timing retard switch?  I would be happy to try it -
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> http://www.talkaboutautos.com/group/alt.autos.porsche.944/
> More information at http://www.talkaboutautos.com/faq.html

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dave AKA vwdoc1 - 13 Nov 2007 13:03 GMT
>I know I said I wouldn't chime in again - let me point out that a 924S is
>not a VW, and it really does't matter what VW used to meet california
>emission standards, that timing is controlled by the computer, there is no
>mechanical timing adjustment, and that NOx does NOT come from a hot
>exhaust, it is a combustion product

I guess that the 924S does not have anything special or extra if designed
for CA emissions.
I also thought that NOx was caused by heat, but I guess I was wrong.
Then I stand corrected!
Thanks William!  ;-)
William Noble - 14 Nov 2007 06:03 GMT
ok, I found the link - try this

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1760/tuneup.html
text below quoted from that page, go there if you can't read it
Certain Motronic DME's have a tiny rotary switch on them. The idea is to
allow qualified service technicians (or you, the knowledgeable tinkerer) to
adjust fuel mixture and ignition timing to supposedly "compensate for the
quality of locally available fuel."

Of course, fooling around with this might help your car's performance, it
can also hinder it. You might have problems come emissions-test time, so
keep track of what you're doing here.

The eight-position rotary switch is found through a little hole at the back
of the DME box. The switch has a triangular-shaped recess in which to insert
a special adjustment tool. In the 944 FAQ it says you can whittle down a
golf tee to make one.

Apparently, all DME boxes are set on position 1, so that's usually
considered the factory stock position. The switch will click in detent
positions, so you must count the clicks in order to shift the DME's timing
and mixture settings to your choosing.

     SWITCH
     POSITION FUEL MIXTURE
     ADJUSTMENT
     (%) IGNITION TIMING
     ADJUSTMENT
     (degrees)
     Factory "stock" - 0 - - 0 -
     2 + 3 - 0 -
     3 + 6 - 0 -
     4 - 3 - 0 -
     5 - 0 - - 3
     6 + 3 - 3
     7 + 6 - 3
     8 - 3 - 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>I know I said I wouldn't chime in again - let me point out that a 924S is
>>not a VW, and it really does't matter what VW used to meet california
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Then I stand corrected!
> Thanks William!  ;-)

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