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Car Forum / Porsche / Porshe 944 / January 2004Yo, Devils!
I've been waiting for the author of this post (from July) to resurface and he has done so. For those of you who took this post as gospel, read on: >I got a list of what it will cost to modify your 944 with a Chevy V-8. >1. ENGINE : Several manufacturers offer "drop-in" V-8's for engine swaps. To >get the engine with aluminum heads to save weight, the Chevy 350 is offered >in 2 HP's The 310HP version and the 350HP version. For those of you >unfamiliar with the term "drop-in" that just means complete. >Your cost (parts only) the 310HP version : $3600.00 > the 350HP version : $4600.00 That'll be the 275 hp and the 300 hp. I bought a 63k '93 Corvette LT1 (aluminum heads) for 1500.00. >Labor : You will have to modify the engine bay, the front suspension and the >engine mounting in order to get this engine to seat properly. It will weigh >92lbs. more and is seated further up than the stock 944 motor. There are no modifications necessary to the engine bay, the engine weighs 60 lbs. more than the original and the only suspension modification is to replace the front springs with heavier ones. >The myth is >that the 944 is 50/50 balanced. In truth it is 48 rear 52 front. Factoring >in the heavier motor and beefed up suspension required you will get about a >4% to 5% increase up front. This will change your weight ratio to about 45.5 >rear 54.5 up front. This WILL affect your handling, no doubt. It's the total >weight distribution NOT the heavier springs that determine the 944's >handling. Not everybody is into handling. If my car will go around a cloverleaf-type on ramp @ 40mph I'll be happy. >Gauges will need to be switched as well as computers and harnesses. More misinformation regarding the gauges. The original gauges work fine when used with custom senders. >Now, the suspension parts will cost you in the neighborhood of $1200.00. One set of 250 lb. springs and spacers = 160.00. >If you wish to have your air conditioning, power steering or other >miscellaneous features expect an additional $2500 charge. For what? Both of mine are connected and all it involved was making custom lines. >It is simply not cost effective, fuel efficient, or car value efficient to >make the swap. I urge you Brad...check with a mechanic, they will tell you. I am a good way through the V-8 swap, and I'm beyond the point of getting any financial surprises on this deal. I have this V-8 in an outstanding '86 951 body and I can guarantee you I won't have 12k in this car finished. I will say that I do my own work and that saves me a fortune. As far as 'car value efficient' I can't agree with that either. These cars are not really collectibles. At any given time there are between 40 and 60 of them on Ebay and the average sales price is 4-5k, discounting the truly nice ones that bring much more, and deservedly so. Fuel efficient? Who cares. It's a weekend car. There are those of us who like the looks of the 944 and appreciate its' solid construction. There are also those of us who don't like Turbos or the fact that one has to spend thousands to get decent horsepower numbers from an engine that has to be pushed to the limits of reliability. For us, there's the V-8 conversion. I like the Chevy V8. I was raised with them and I doubt I'll ever have to go to a newsgroup or a bulletin board to find out how to fix it should it break, which I notice, is the reason most posters are here. Of 125 voters on a current Rennlist poll, 27% said they thought a V8 swap is a reasonable idea and another 31% are sitting on the fence. Doug > Not everybody is into handling. If my car will go around a > cloverleaf-type on ramp @ 40mph I'll be happy. I think this statement succinctly sums up the difference between the 'V8 camp' and the 'originality camp'. Porsches (especially the front engined ones) are all about sweet handling, that's what they do best. Personally, I love the fact that I can chuck my 944 around twisty, wet country roads and know exactly how it will respond. I don't need massive torque to enjoy this simple pleasure. Lotus cars are similar in this respect - less is more. If you only want straight line grunt to go drag racing, why not just buy a muscle car? >> Not everybody is into handling. If my car will go around a >> cloverleaf-type on ramp @ 40mph I'll be happy. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >know exactly how it will respond. I don't need massive torque to enjoy this >simple pleasure. Lotus cars are similar in this respect - less is more. I admire your ability to air a differing viewpoint without a chip on your shoulder, AND without expletives like the boob that posted below. This issue is hardly worth getting emotional over. These cars are neither collector's items, museum pieces or shrines. They are cars and that's about it. >If you only want straight line grunt to go drag racing, why not just buy a >muscle car? A stated previously in the response to Devil's error-prone posting, I like the looks and solidity of the car and I like Chevy V8's. That's about it. Before I bail, as long as I have a 944 I consider myself welcome here whether anybody who holds the 944 as a religious entity likes it or not. Doug <Devil's error-prone posting> You see Doug, this is why I don't bother anymore. It is a waste of my time and yours. If you had bothered to read my posts you would have seen that I was much more factual than you. We have gone over this a million times both here and in Rennlist and based on what everybody who has done it, and has actually looked into it (as I have) the concensus is that a PROPER job, done by a professional (read that again, because most of us do not have the time or skills to do a PROPER job by ourselves) To get all of the required new parts, have all of the systems hooked back up, it will cost in excess of $10K. $12K being the closest to the finalized number. You want to throw out numbers to reduce the total by buying the motor yourself...great...a Chevy motor with 63K is about 37K from it's typical lifespan before some engine work is necessary. A PROPER job would include buying a NEW motor. So great, you got an used motor with about 2-3 years of efficient life lift in her. How does this save me money in the long run? Besides, the Corvette motors from that generation have a bevy of water pump and distribution concerns, I hope you have addressed that. Next...and for the last time...60lbs, is the engine weight difference...that is a known fact. What you also want to throw out is the fact that weight is only a small factor in the 944 handling picture. That engine that weighs only 60lbs more also carries the weight differently. The engine being longer carries the extra 60lbs and the extra length in FRONT of the front wheels. You can try to fool everyone if you want, but on a PROPER job, you will have a NOTICABLE change in handling. The roads where I live have curves. As for you other details...Springs, retrofitting, and adapters. Great, you do it yourself and save money. What about the rest of us who don't have time or skill to do it? You see Doug, my main question is, and remains to be, why replace a higher QUALITY product with a cheaper product that has half the lifespan and half of the reliability? It makes no sense. Cheap is cheap. Quality costs money. A 951S still makes more sense than a Chevy swap. It's your car Doug, do what you want with it, but don't you come in here and try to tell people that they are being lied to about costs. A PROPER job, done by a QUALIFIED mechanic, done with NEW parts and having ALL systems reconnected WILL cost you over $10K and closer to $12K. Not exactly a drop in the bucket for most people. Don't bother to respond, I am done with this subject. Enjoy your car. > >> Not everybody is into handling. If my car will go around a > >> cloverleaf-type on ramp @ 40mph I'll be happy. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Doug FIRSTLY, DEVILS 944S2 SHOULD PRACTICE ON GRAMMAR AND SPELL CHECKING HIS WORK. NOW FOR THE MEAT OF THIS WRITING. IF YOU ARE NOT MECHANICALLY INCLINED AND HAVE TO HAVE YOUR CAR SERVICED AT A PROFESSIONAL MECHANIC SHOP, YOU SHOULDN'T OWN A PORSCHE. THEY ARE KNOWN FOR SPENDING MORE TIME IN THE SHOP THAN ON THE ROAD. NEXT, IF MONEY IS A PROBLEM, YOU SHOULDN'T OWN A PORSCHE OR THINK ABOUT MODIFYING IT. AND FINALLY A $4000.00 CRATE ENGINE IS STILL ALOT CHEAPER THAN BUILDING A PORSCHE ENGINE TO CREATE EQUAL POWER OR RELIABILITY. IF YOU OR SOMEONE YOU KNOW CAN ONLY GET 100K MILES FROM A CHEVY V 8, YOU SHOULD CONSIDER TAKING IT TO A PROFESSIONAL TO HAVE IT SERVICED, BEDCAUSE EVIDENTLY YOU ARE NOT DOING A VERY GOOD JOB. CHEVY V 8'S GET ALOT MORE THAN 100K MILES ON THE CLOCK WITH LESS MAINTENANCE, AND LOWER REPAIR BILLS THAN A PORSCHE. I OWN A 951 WITH A LS1 AND WOULDN'T HAVE IT ANY OTHER WAY. I HAVE LESS THAN 12K INVESTED IN THE COMPLETE BUILDUP, INCLUDING A COMPLETE HIGH QUALITY REFINISHING JOB. A CLOSE FRIEND OF MINE HAS BEEN MODIFYING AND WORKING ON HIS 951 FOR OVER TWO YEARS, AND HASN'T PUT 300 MILES ON IT IN THIS TIME FRAME. HE UPGRADED TO A BIGGER TURBO, INTERCOOLER, PIPING AND COMPUTER UPGRADES, LIGHTENED FLYWHEEL AND PERFORMANCE CLUTCH FOR AROUND $3000, DOING ALL THE LABOR HIMSELF, AND IS STILL GETTING SPANKED BY LT1 AND LS1 CAMAROS WITH ONLY PERFORMANCE EXHAUST SYSTEMS. IF YOU GERMAN DIE-HARDS BELIEVE SO MUCH IN THE PORSCHE PRODUCT, WHY DO YOU PRAISE IT AND THEN ATTEMPT TO MODIFY IT. <FIRSTLY,> Yes, firstly, stop yelling. Learn some manners before you fire up the old PII and attempt to make a point. <IF YOU ARE NOT MECHANICALLY INCLINED AND HAVE TO HAVE YOUR CAR SERVICED AT A PROFESSIONAL MECHANIC SHOP, YOU SHOULDN'T OWN A PORSCHE.> Why not? I can turn a wrench, but I can also afford to have a professional do it for me. <THEY ARE KNOWN FOR SPENDING MORE TIME IN THE SHOP THAN ON THE ROAD.> Show me some proof. My friends 1995 C-4 Vette has spent more time in the shop than my 1990 Porsche AND has cost MUCH more. So take your SUBJECTIVE bullshit elsewhere. <NEXT, IF MONEY IS A PROBLEM, YOU SHOULDN'T OWN A PORSCHE OR THINK ABOUT MODIFYING IT.> If money is a problem, you should get a better job or better your education. <AND> Hey, Grammar king...you don't begin a sentence with "and" <FINALLY A $4000.00 CRATE ENGINE IS STILL ALOT CHEAPER THAN BUILDING A PORSCHE ENGINE> Hey your are right. Cheaper is cheaper for a reason. You can twist it any way you want, but in no circumstance is cheaper EVER better. To go cheaper, you are giving up something, usually quality. <IF YOU OR SOMEONE YOU KNOW CAN ONLY GET 100K MILES FROM A CHEVY V 8, YOU SHOULD CONSIDER TAKING IT TO A PROFESSIONAL TO HAVE IT SERVICED> Wait genius, didn't you say above that only if you own a Porsche and weren't mechanically inclined would you need a professional? Now you say that for a Chevy? Sorry, I'll pass. In the J.D. Power LONG TERM reliability and quality survey, Porsche beat out EVERY other brand. Chevy wasn't even close. <BEDCAUSE> What happened there Hemmingway, spell check broken? <EVIDENTLY YOU ARE NOT DOING A VERY GOOD JOB. CHEVY V 8'S GET ALOT MORE THAN 100K MILES ON THE CLOCK WITH LESS MAINTENANCE, AND LOWER REPAIR BILLS THAN A PORSCHE.> Yeah, why don't you tell that to my friend with his C-4. <I OWN A 951 WITH A LS1> No you don't. You own a bastard. The 951 designation is for a turbocharged engine. Is that ancient pushrod design a turbo? I didn't think so. You might as well tell everyone you have an S2, it's the same body. <AND WOULDN'T HAVE IT ANY OTHER WAY. I HAVE LESS THAN 12K INVESTED IN THE COMPLETE BUILDUP, INCLUDING A COMPLETE HIGH QUALITY REFINISHING JOB.> Less than $12K. Wow! You have dropped the cars value through the floor and have "invested", what, $11K? You are one savvy man! <A CLOSE FRIEND OF MINE HAS BEEN MODIFYING AND WORKING ON HIS 951 FOR OVER TWO YEARS, AND HASN'T PUT 300 MILES ON IT IN THIS TIME FRAME. HE UPGRADED TO A BIGGER TURBO, INTERCOOLER, PIPING AND COMPUTER UPGRADES, LIGHTENED FLYWHEEL AND PERFORMANCE CLUTCH FOR AROUND $3000, DOING ALL THE LABOR HIMSELF, AND IS STILL GETTING SPANKED BY LT1 AND LS1 CAMAROS WITH ONLY PERFORMANCE EXHAUST SYSTEMS.> Proof? <IF YOU GERMAN DIE-HARDS BELIEVE SO MUCH IN THE PORSCHE PRODUCT, WHY DO YOU PRAISE IT AND THEN ATTEMPT TO MODIFY IT.> If you Chevy die-hards believe so much in Chevy, then why do you praise it, blather on about Camaro's and in the end want a Porsche. If Chevy is so great, buy one. Lastly...all this posing and yakking endlessly about races and getting whooped by LS1's. History tells a much different story. The "mighty" V-8's by Chevy were beaten week in and week out by Porsche in head to head racing, funny part, it wasn't the 911 handing out the beatings, it was the N/A 944. (IMSA Firehawk series, 1985, GM dropped out the following year because Camaro, Firebird and Corvette lost EVERY race to the much more balanced 944) So listen Chevy guy, you better come in here with more than the weak bullshit you typed, but, then again, an AOL member. That pretty much says it all... > FIRSTLY, DEVILS 944S2 SHOULD PRACTICE ON GRAMMAR AND SPELL CHECKING HIS WORK. NOW FOR THE MEAT OF THIS WRITING. IF YOU ARE NOT MECHANICALLY INCLINED AND HAVE TO HAVE YOUR CAR SERVICED AT A PROFESSIONAL MECHANIC SHOP, YOU SHOULDN'T OWN A PORSCHE. THEY ARE KNOWN FOR SPENDING MORE TIME IN THE SHOP THAN ON THE ROAD. NEXT, IF MONEY IS A PROBLEM, YOU SHOULDN'T OWN A PORSCHE OR THINK ABOUT MODIFYING IT. AND FINALLY A $4000.00 CRATE ENGINE IS STILL ALOT CHEAPER THAN BUILDING A PORSCHE ENGINE TO CREATE EQUAL POWER OR RELIABILITY. IF YOU OR SOMEONE YOU KNOW CAN ONLY GET 100K MILES FROM A CHEVY V 8, YOU SHOULD CONSIDER TAKING IT TO A PROFESSIONAL TO HAVE IT SERVICED, BEDCAUSE EVIDENTLY YOU ARE NOT DOING A VERY GOOD JOB. CHEVY V 8'S GET ALOT MORE THAN 100K MILES ON THE CLOCK WITH LESS MAINTENANCE, AND LOWER REPAIR BILLS THAN A PORSCHE. I OWN A 951 WITH A LS1 AND WOULDN'T HAVE IT ANY OTHER WAY. I HAVE LESS THAN 12K INVESTED IN THE COMPLETE BUILDUP, INCLUDING A COMPLETE HIGH QUALITY REFINISHING JOB. A CLOSE FRIEND OF MINE HAS BEEN MODIFYING AND WORKING ON HIS 951 FOR OVER TWO YEARS, AND HASN'T PUT 300 MILES ON IT IN THIS TIME FRAME. HE UPGRADED TO A BIGGER TURBO, INTERCOOLER, PIPING AND COMPUTER UPGRADES, LIGHTENED FLYWHEEL AND PERFORMANCE CLUTCH FOR AROUND $3000, DOING ALL THE LABOR HIMSELF, AND IS STILL GETTING SPANKED BY LT1 AND LS1 CAMAROS WITH ONLY PERFORMANCE EXHAUST SYSTEMS. IF YOU GERMAN DIE-HARDS BELIEVE SO MUCH IN THE PORSCHE PRODUCT, WHY DO YOU PRAISE IT AND THEN ATTEMPT TO MODIFY IT. f.y.i I have owned 2 944's in the last 5 years.... one for 4 and the latest (a 951) for a year.... both are daily drivers to the tune of 80 miles a day during the week back and forth to work and about that on theweekend just running around.... the 944 had an altercation with a Mercedes MLK, bent the nose, ended up being totaled (you should have seen the MB , it came out far worse on the deal) Time in the shop for the 944 , over the 4 years , 2 weeks total, and that was for belts, and oil changes... for the 951, for the last 12 months , 1 week ( belts, rollers, gaskets, seals, and motor mounts...) and in my garage for one day to replace the alternator. now, my spouses' S-10 Blazer has been in and out of the shop to fix various dealer only items like window lift mechanisims along with various electrical gremlins on average of 1 week every other month (and I have to make and appoitment 2 weeks in advance, where my 944 mech fits me in on the next day) and she drives it maybe 50 miles a week, most of the time it sits in my driveway.... money, collectively I have spent more on the Blazer then I have on BOTH 944's your call, which is the better deal ??????? DC '87 951... ><FIRSTLY,> > [quoted text clipped - 111 lines] > > >now, my spouses' S-10 Blazer has been in and out of the shop to fix >various dealer only items like window lift mechanisims along with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >your call, which is the better deal ??????? I do believe you're missing the point. It's not a question of 'what's a better deal'. It's not about money (at least in my case). It's about what makes me happy. Personally, I don't give a rat's rear end about how many times the Chevy has been in the shop versus the Porsche, nor do I care about whether or not a pushrod V8 is yesterday's news. I don't care if your car is faster than mine, nor do I care how well either car sashays through the cones. In addition, I don't care if I've increased or decreased the value of the car. To me, this particular car is just a really nice platform to hold a V8. You should be honored that I picked a 951; the last one was a MB 280SL (which, incidentally, I sold at a reasonable profit). I must say I enjoy eliciting such emotional replies from you fanatics, while keeping my responses on the monotone side. (As if this whole debate is worth getting hot over...right.) ...out to the garage to do some hackin' an' slashin'- Doug P.S. Renegade says an LS1 won't fit a 944 bodied car. >DC '87 951... > [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] >>bullshit you typed, but, then again, an AOL member. That pretty much says it >>all... >> I believe my point was your comment about Porsches being "shop queens" while I have no doubt there are those, particularly the 911 family, that have that reputation, it does NOT hold true for the 944/951/968 group..... personally , if you want to stuff a V8 into a 951,, or even into a 911, have at it.... though I can think of a couple of other platforms that would be better candidates but that is a matter of personal taste My choice would be a 914/6 , with a stout V8 in it and some minor suspension upgradeds , it will whip darn near anything on the street or track DC ----------------- >>now, my spouses' S-10 Blazer has been in and out of the shop to fix >>various dealer only items like window lift mechanisims along with [quoted text clipped - 127 lines] > > Hey Doug, maybe if this was alt.autos.porsche.bastardization we'd give a sh.t. How irritating, no matter what you do or where you go the trolls stick to you like glue. Please, if you want to talk about V8 "drop-ins" go create another news group and do it there, we have done this to death and no longer wish to discuss it. So in short, incase you can't take a hint, no one cares because we don't want a V8, and worse yet, one made by Chevy, in our cars. If you want V8 power, please spare a 944 to someone who appreciates the car for what it is and go buy a Camaro. > I've been waiting for the author of this post (from July) to resurface > and he has done so. For those of you who took this post as gospel, [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > > Doug >If you want V8 power, please spare a 944 to someone who appreciates the car >for what it is and go buy a Camaro. If I had to appreciate it for what it "is" I wouldn't own it. Have a nice day! Doug > >If you want V8 power, please spare a 944 to someone who appreciates the car > >for what it is and go buy a Camaro. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Doug THEN ITS OBVIOUS YOU SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT SOMETHING ELSE >> >If you want V8 power, please spare a 944 to someone who appreciates the car >> >for what it is and go buy a Camaro. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >THEN ITS OBVIOUS YOU SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT SOMETHING ELSE ...not now, please.....torch and sawzall are both running...... Doug |
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