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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / April 2005

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Astro TV rear suspension

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Craig Faison - 08 Apr 2005 16:10 GMT
Hi all,

I just purchased a Chevrolet Astro as a tow vehicle. I'm interested in
adding air bags to the rear suspension, and am looking for information as
to the durability of the air bags. I've been searching the archives and
see a couple of references to air bags ripping, but those posts are a few
years old now and I'm wondering if anyone has any more current (or
long-term) experience.

The air bags aren't for towing the pop-up, as it is very light and has a
tongue weight of ~125 lbs. I plan to carry a dirt bike on a hitch mounted
carrier and that combination weighs ~300 lbs, which I'm sure will have the
rear sagging quite a bit.

thanks,
Craig
4partee - 08 Apr 2005 18:47 GMT
> The air bags aren't for towing the pop-up, as it is very light and has a
> tongue weight of ~125 lbs. I plan to carry a dirt bike on a hitch mounted
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> thanks,
> Craig

You may be OK already.  Your Astro s/b rated to tow at least 5,000lbs.
A normal hitch weight of 10% yields 500lbs.  Now, apply the
75% rule-of-thumb and you get 375lbs.

Signature

John & Sue
'04 GMC Safari
'99 Starcraft Starflyer (Shuttlecraft)

Craig Faison - 08 Apr 2005 19:08 GMT
> You may be OK already.  Your Astro s/b rated to tow at least 5,000lbs.
> A normal hitch weight of 10% yields 500lbs.  Now, apply the
> 75% rule-of-thumb and you get 375lbs.

As I understand it, GM recommends a weight distributing hitch for tongue
weights greater than 200 lbs. Obviously, in this situation a WDH is not
applicable, but the recommendation (as well as most of the posts I read in
the archives) suggests that I'll be sagging.

As soon as I get the hitch delivered I'll install it and see...

thanks,
Craig
4partee - 08 Apr 2005 21:01 GMT
> As I understand it, GM recommends a weight distributing hitch for tongue
> weights greater than 200 lbs. Obviously, in this situation a WDH is not
> applicable, but the recommendation (as well as most of the posts I read
> in the archives) suggests that I'll be sagging.

Hmmmm.  My hitch weight is 225lbs and I towed for 5 years with a little 88
Dodge Caravan SE(one rear seat version) without any problems except being
under powered and under braked.  We took out the back seat and put our
heavier cargo ahead of the rear axle as much as possible.  I used a
homemade 4'x3' plywood platform to help with this.  We ran level. The
hitch was from U-Haul, no WD and no anti-sway devices.

One thing that can affect sag is how far the hitch is from the axle.
Think playground see-saw physics.  The Caravan had very little
rear overhang compared to the Safari.  

I havn't towed w/ the Safari yet, but still, I will be most surprised if I
experience sagging.

> As soon as I get the hitch delivered I'll install it and see...

I hope you will come back and post your experience.

Starcraft prohibits using a WDH on my pop-up, so I choose to break the GM
200lb rule. I will be using another U-Haul hitch.  If I do experience sag
that can't be corrected by cargo placement, I will be looking at beefing
up the rear suspension.  I will report back on how things work out.

Signature

John & Sue
'04 GMC Safari
'99 Starcraft Starflyer (Shuttlecraft)

Mail.it.to.us - 09 Apr 2005 18:30 GMT
Craig,

Did you search for my postings under Dan_the_Hutt@hotmail.com ?
I also sent you pictures on a seperate e-mail.  I used the air bags for 5-6
years and just hated and then loved them -  after I got them "adjusted"
properly.  I also went to LT truck tires on the Van which made a big
difference when hauling and towing.

Cheers,

Dan_the_Hutt
Ottawa, ON
04 Envoy XL (no towing experience)
99 Safari (40,000 towing kms )
99 Coleman Westlake

> > As I understand it, GM recommends a weight distributing hitch for tongue
> > weights greater than 200 lbs. Obviously, in this situation a WDH is not
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> that can't be corrected by cargo placement, I will be looking at beefing
> up the rear suspension.  I will report back on how things work out.
4partee - 11 Apr 2005 00:50 GMT
> Craig,
>
> Did you search for my postings under Dan_the_Hutt@hotmail.com ?

I'm not Craig, but I would be interested in learning more about your
success with airbags. just in case I do experience any sag.

Signature

John & Sue
'04 GMC Safari
'99 Starcraft Starflyer (Shuttlecraft)

Dan_the_Hutt - 11 Apr 2005 03:14 GMT
Many Safari owners found the rear leaf springs to be too soft for towing or
hauling.
Back then, my options were:
1) add rubber or steel spring spacers for coil suspension, very cheap and
easy to install, not an option for leaf spring Safari's;
2) recurve the leaf springs or add a leaf, I forget the cost, but then you
rode high in the rear when unloaded;
3) get air shocks, getting up in price, but there seemed to be a question
about premature failure in winter/salt conditions;
4) get airbags CDN$300/pair CDN$1-200 installation (discuss more below);
and/or
5) weight distributing hitch, unlike options 1-4 it moves weight off the
rear axle, but is useless when hauling cargo without a trailer.
For options 3 & 4 you can add an onboard compressor to make it really sweet.

Since I visit Home Depot like every other week-end, I choose option 4.  The
Airlift bags I had installed were
http://www.airliftcompany.com/­ridecontrol.htm
However, the version made specifically for the Safari cannot be installed
IMHO exactly according to Airlift's instructions since it is too cramped for
the chassis.  Also with rear air, the line runs very close to the support
bracket.  I gave up trying to install it myself and had a pro truck
suspension shop install them for me.  They installed the hard-to-do
driver-side really well, but the easy passenger-side not so great.

To make a long story short, I left on a 15,000 km trip and had two Air bags
fail.  One bay ruptured right away because the installation on one side was
soo tight that the lock nut couldn't be properly tightened down.  It came
loose and allowed the bag to drift towards the tire and poof.  The second
bag I lost after hitting a pothole at ~100km/hr, the plastic air fitting was
right against the frame and the compression forces cracked the fitting.

After I got home, I switched the air fittings from plastic to brass ($5) and
strapped simple plastic wraps to make sure the air bag couldn't slide
towards the tire.  For the first trip the air bags were headaches.  After I
applied my simple fix, I had them for another 5 years problem free and put
another 15,000 km on them without any problems towing or hauling. See pics
of the simple fix
http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?c=1­1kqtb9x.and0kz9&x=0&y=rw6ba5

When unloaded and level, you measure the distance from the wheel rims to
the fenders for future reference (for me it was the distance between my
thumb and middle finger or 9").  After you add your load you simply add air
to raise the back-end, and bleed off some if too high. I used an ordinary
bike pump, or portable air compressor, or justed added air at the next gas
station.  I had two hidden air fittings attached to the rear bumper close
enough to the side so you could keep and eye (and fingers) on the rim-fender
distance. I normally had to do this only once unless I dramatically change
the weights on a trip or was driving extensively without the trailer
attached.  When unloaded, you can bleed off air to relevel.  During winter
and over time they do lose a bit of air just like your tires.

For my towing setup it was a little more complicated.  The trailer is
3000-3200lbs loaded.  So with 300+ lbs on the hitch ball, I found the
regular passenger tires to be too soft at the rated max of 35 p.s.i.  The
soft tires and short wheel based generated considerable side to side sway -
enough to make the kids in the back ill.  After I upgraded to LT215/75R15 (I
think the size is right) - truck tires with several side plys, I was able to
pressurize the tires to 50 p.s.i.  and the problems went away.  Now I never
have considered the Safari to be a mini-van, but rather a mid-sixed van
(like the Aerostar) and I never expected anything resembling car-like
handling.  Well after these mods, the van definitely rode and handled even
more like a truck.

If I had another Safari, would I add air bags again?  Definitely (I pick up
lumber and concrete frequently), but I would also check out Firestones' air
bags http://www.ride-rite.com/ which are installed where the rubber jounce
is, well away from the tire, but perhaps a more difficult install (don't
know.)

BTW, either air bag choice means the vehicle can't be lifted by the frame
for extended periods or the bags may over stretch and rupture.  So each and
every garage visit I make them write "after-market air suspension,
axle-stands must be used to support rear axles" on the work order.

Hope this helps,

Dan
Ottawa, ON
04 Envoy XL
99 Coleman Westlake

>> Craig,
>>
>> Did you search for my postings under Dan_the_Hutt@hotmail.com ?
>
> I'm not Craig, but I would be interested in learning more about your
> success with airbags. just in case I do experience any sag.
4partee - 11 Apr 2005 17:05 GMT
Many thanks for the detailed info.  I've printed it for when/if I need
it.

Does this link show the system you have now?
http://www.airliftcompany.com/new-index/Frameset.htm

> http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?c=1­1kqtb9x.and0kz9&x=0&y=rw6ba5

Could not view thie picture.  Could you check to see if 'sharing' is
turned on?

> If I had another Safari, would I add air bags again?  Definitely (I pick
> up lumber and concrete frequently), but I would also check out
> Firestones' air bags http://www.ride-rite.com/ which are installed where
> the rubber jounce

I noticed this re the Firestone system:
" Astro, Safari (4x2)(4x4) (cargo van only, not passenger van,
continuously loaded vehicles only)".  

Signature

John & Sue
'04 GMC Safari
'99 Starcraft Starflyer (Shuttlecraft)

Dan_the_Hutt - 12 Apr 2005 01:41 GMT
The airbags I had are like the  59500 and 59600 Series Ride-Controls (sorry
the complete link will not copy)
Notice the white plastic tube in the picture.  It is used only during
installation to ensure a straight alignment and precise distance between the
top and bottom brackets.  My experience was that there was no way to keep
the brackets both straight AND the recommended distance apart AND have the
drill holes through the chassis aligned sufficiantly away from the edges.
In the end, a little comprimising on all 3 constraints/factors ends up being
the only way to install.

Hmm, the link worked for me??  Ofoto (Kodak) revamped their online hosting.
Try this photo link instead.
http://www.kodakgallery.com/ShareLandingSignin.jsp?Uc=11kqtb9x.and0kz9&Uy=rw6ba5
&Upost_signin=BrowsePhotos.jsp%3FshowSlide%3Dtrue&Ux=0&UV=365663386883_973909672
205

The jounce is the yellow "bumper" partially in view.  When I dig them out of
the shed, I may post some additional pictures.

> I noticed this re the Firestone system:
> " Astro, Safari (4x2)(4x4) (cargo van only, not passenger van,
> continuously loaded vehicles only)".

I also noticed that the year stops at 1998, Dell*Phinus had success with the
Firestones so you can drop him a line for his opinion.  He hasn't posted to
this group since Oct 2002, but he is still out there.

When driving unloaded, the Air Bags are set at a nominal pressure <10 psi
and do not affect the vehicle in any manner.  The slight pressure is to
ensure it maintains its form and does not get pinched between components.
When loaded up, my headlights pointed properly and my rear end did not
bottom out.  I did not notice any issues with the ABS brakes.

Dan
Ottawa, ON
04 GMC Envoy XL
99 Coleman Westlake

> Many thanks for the detailed info.  I've printed it for when/if I need
> it.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> " Astro, Safari (4x2)(4x4) (cargo van only, not passenger van,
> continuously loaded vehicles only)".
4partee - 12 Apr 2005 17:02 GMT
I called Ride-Rite.  There is a new kit #2361 for my Safari.  Forgot all
about the restriction so called back(800-888-0650, 7, 1) and left voice
message.  

Signature

John & Sue
'04 GMC Safari
'99 Starcraft Starflyer (Shuttlecraft)

Craig Faison - 11 Apr 2005 19:10 GMT
> Since I visit Home Depot like every other week-end, I choose option 4.  The
> Airlift bags I had installed were

Dan,

Thanks for the detailed reply and the email.

Did you notice any strange behavior with the ABS, or braking in general?

thanks,
Craig
Dan_the_Hutt - 12 Apr 2005 01:57 GMT
I didn't notice anything at all re: ABS.  I had one emergency braking
situation and I braked straight (so my ABS was probably kicking in.)  If I
went for a trailer load of gravel, say 4000 lbs (it was rated for 5000lbs)
and the electric brakes were not set aggressive, then sure you felt the
trailer push the Van when braking.  But then you just increase the brake
controller gain etc...  If the trailer did not have brakes, then it was
<2000lbs usually and didn't really require much pressure in the air bags.
Remember, air is added on a proportional basis to the weight being added, so
that you ride level.  The air bags only resist forces (essentially) in the
direction of compression.

Cheers,

Dan
Ottawa, ON
04 GMC Envoy XL
99 Coleman Westlake

>> Since I visit Home Depot like every other week-end, I choose option 4.
>> The
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> thanks,
> Craig
Craig Faison - 13 Apr 2005 14:03 GMT
> One thing that can affect sag is how far the hitch is from the axle.
> Think playground see-saw physics.  The Caravan had very little
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I hope you will come back and post your experience.

My trailer hitch arrived yesterday and I installed it last night. I
immediately put on the bike carrier and loaded up the bike. The sag is not
as bad as I expected, but still very evident. There's ~2 inches of
travel between the rubber 'bump stops' and the frame with the bike loaded.
I took it for a 15 mile test drive and it drives just fine without
blinding oncoming drivers too badly. The only real problem is that the
rear of the carrier is fairly close to the ground and will be dragging all
over the place on anything but flat road. I'm going to try loading the
bike in the van for a ride this weekend, and the hassle involved will
likely be the determining factor as to whether I pursue airbags or not.

I didn't have time to take the pop-up for a test-tow, but knowing that the
tongue weight is ~150 lbs less than the carrier/bike combo (and not
out on a long lever), I'm very confident that sag will not be an issue.

I purchased a Putnam hitch through Weaver Distributing in PA. This is the
3rd or 4th hitch I've purchased from them, and as with the other
purchases, service and price were both excellent. If you're shopping, I'd
suggest giving them a call at (800) Weaver-D for a free catalog. They
don't have a web site as far as I know. I'm not affiliated at all, just
wanted pass on a company that has treated me well. I should mention that
the directions that came with the hitch were nearly useless (they were for
a short-box Astro and had just one line of instruction for the extended
body), but it was very simple to figure out.

Craig
4partee - 14 Apr 2005 04:25 GMT
Her is a linf to a new bike loading system.

http://www.joe-ks.com/MultiMedia/LoadingDirtbike.mpg
Signature

John & Sue
'04 GMC Safari
'99 Starcraft Starflyer (Shuttlecraft)

AustinMN - 09 Apr 2005 02:06 GMT
> I just purchased a Chevrolet Astro as a tow vehicle. I'm interested in
> adding air bags to the rear suspension, and am looking for information as
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> carrier and that combination weighs ~300 lbs, which I'm sure will have the
> rear sagging quite a bit.

GM specifically advises against using suspension enhancements for the
Astro/Safari.

Air bags, air shocks, and any type of helper springs interfere with the type
of suspension movement that is used by the ABS.  Improper ABS function may
result.

How far will you be going with the dirt bike?  If the back of the van is
empty (particularly if you remove the 3rd row seat) then 300 lbs. might not
be too much weight as is.

Austin
Signature

Coleman Bayside behind a Chevy Astro.
No, not without a Reese Mini-350 WDH!
There are no X characters in my address

Craig Faison - 09 Apr 2005 02:58 GMT
> GM specifically advises against using suspension enhancements for the
> Astro/Safari.
>
> Air bags, air shocks, and any type of helper springs interfere with the type
> of suspension movement that is used by the ABS.  Improper ABS function may
> result.

Interesting. Can any of the current Astro owners w/airbags comment?

> How far will you be going with the dirt bike?  If the back of the van is
> empty (particularly if you remove the 3rd row seat) then 300 lbs. might not
> be too much weight as is.

Typically 100 miles each way - to the riding area in the morning and home
at night (long day). I have a trailer, and could certainly just stuff the
bike in the back of the van, but the carrier is very convenient as it
allows me to avoid the hassle of a trailer in a tight & crowded parking
area, but keeps the mess & stink outside.

I'll try it and see, but the same bike & carrier on my Silverado 1500 was
right about as much sag as I think is acceptable (headlights blinding
oncoming drivers and the carrier scraping the ground on some of the rocks
in the parking area) and I suspect the Astro will sag more. To provide
enough room to keep the bars from hitting the back window, the carrier is
extended ~15 inches from the end of the hitch, so that 300lbs is on a bit
of a lever. It won't kill me to not use it, but again, it sure is handy.

thanks,
Craig
Chris Cowles - 10 Apr 2005 22:46 GMT
I have a '99 Astro and dislike it very much as a family minivan, but it tows
our pop-up well. I have a '00 Mesa with a tongue weight of 300-350 and am
satisfied with our Reese mini-350, a class II weight-distributing hitch. It
eliminates any sag.

A disadvantage of the design is that it's dependent on the trailer nose
wheel for lifting the rear of the tow vehicle high enough to get the spring
arms on the plates attached to the front of the trailer hitch. If the angle
between the tow vehicle and the trailer is not flat, that can be a
challenge.

Also, many trailers in that weight class are not designed to bear the load
imposed by a weight-distributing hitch. Coleman (aka Fleetwood) is one that
is. There may be others that can, as well.
Signature

Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL
'00 Coleman Mesa/'99 Chevy Astro

> Hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> thanks,
> Craig
 
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