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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / November 2005

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New camper (a long post)

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Karl Lindholm - 26 Oct 2005 18:50 GMT
Last month I was home from work, and since it was a nice day, I asked Angela
if she wanted to go to out to A. C. Nelson (http://www.acnrv.com/) thinking
they might have some campers popped up to look at.  As we drove out, we
agreed like so many other couples that we were "Just Looking" (tm).

They indeed had many pop-ups set up to look at, and of course, given the
time of year, had end of season sale prices on the `05 models.  There was a
"new" (unused) `04 Tacoma on the floor with a very attractive price.  We
looked around and spotted an `05 Allegiance out on the lot that appealed to
us even more.  Given that it had a 70 inch bed on one end, and a 48 inch on
the other, at first, we thought it was a shorter box (thus a little
lighter, and easier to fit in the garage) than the Tacoma.  It turned out
that the Allegiance is a replacement model for the Tacoma, and they are
both 12 footers.  Why this particular Allegiance had a 48 inch bunk on the
back end, they could not say, as the brochures and all the other literature
state both ends are 70 inches.  The shorter bed did not bother us, and got
us a few hundred off the asking price.

The Allegiance also had a water heater, which the Tacoma did not.  The
Allegiance was $1500 more than the Tacoma, but after looking at both (they
have the same floor plans) and laying on the beds in both, we knew we would
rather have the Allegiance just for the better mattress pads alone!  

The salesman also told us that not only did the Allegiance come with better
mattresses, but also came with an automatic switchover for dual propane
tanks, and had a better warranty on the roof.  We told him that we did
primarily dry camping, and asked if it would have a group 31 (or better)
battery on it.  He said "absolutely".  (Never completely trust an RV
salesman!)

When we came out a couple of days later to sign the paperwork and get our
"walk-through", I noticed that there was *not* an auto-switchover for
propane.  I said our salesman had assured us there would be.  They
immediately installed one.  They also had, during the
inspection/prep/cleanup had discovered that the tip out galley portion of
the tenting had a small leak, and they already had a new piece on order to
replace it, it would take a couple of weeks to get.

Angela and I were eager to get it out camping, and the service man, knowing
we were experienced PU campers gave us a rather cursory walk-through.  We
towed it home, and parked it in the drive next to our old Taos.  Angela
emptied out the Taos of dishes, cooking utensils, etc. laughingly
complaining she didn't know where she was going to put it all.  She said
her biggest concern was stowing what we had in a way that it wouldn't shift
and rattle during towing, as she has *so* much more room to store
everything - the Taos had been like a Chinese puzzle box - we had
everything we needed, but it was stuffed so well, there was no chance of
any of it moving during tow.

The way Angela had the Taos packed was one of the major reasons we did not
like to do one night camps.  We had to get out 3-4 items to unpack the one
we might need, and repacking it also took more time than we wanted to
spend.

We took it out to the club range (we belong to a Blackpowder club that has,
as well as the gun range, a large and very private campground).  Of course,
the first day I spent a lot of time reading all the manuals that came with
it.  We thought the water pump was noisier than it should be, but did not
investigate it right away, not until a friend (also a frequent poster on
here) visited.

What we discovered was that the water pump was a) mounted on the flimsy 3/8"
thick piece of particle board that defined the compartment the water heater
was in, thus resonating badly b) the pump was (according to the shur-flo
manual) mounted upside down and most distressingly c) the propane line was
run in such a way as to be tightly against the electric motor of the pump.
Of course this meant during the bouncing around under tow, as well as the
vibration from the motor when it was running would eventually wear a hole
in, or cause the line to crack - *not* a good thing!

I called the dealership on the spot and told them I had found what could be
a life-threatening assembly defect in our brand new camper.  They asked me
to bring it in as soon as I could.  Our friend took digital pictures of the
way it was installed, and sent them to the service manager so he could have
a heads up as to the problem.

Let me make a long story a little shorter and say that when the dealership
saw the way the pump was mounted, they not only agreed that they had to
change the way mine was installed, they were going to go through the other
Fleetwoods on the lot and make sure that they were installed correctly.

The dealership went way above and beyond for me.  I cannot say enough good
about them.  They fixed everything the way it should have been to begin
with, gave me some additional items, and since I had to leave on a trip,
and would be out of town by the time they got done, winterized it, and
offered to either deliver it to the house, or store it until such time as I
could come after it - all free.  Fleetwood on the other hand...  

I talked to one of their people, and was told that that was the way the pump
was supposed to be mounted, that they would only pay to have the dealership
bend the propane line away from the pump (something the dealership refused
to do).  

The service manager had additional conversations with this guy, and was told
that the state inspector had already been shown the pictures, and was going
to come inspect the campers on the lot.  He was told that they expected the
inspector to say without modification, that the certificate to distribute
Fleetwoods in Nebraska would be pulled.  If he did, Fleetwood would not be
allowed to sell *any* of their products within the state.  This guy reply?
"We don't care."  The service manager came back with "I'll bet the VP of
sales for this region will care when it shows up on his desk tomorrow, and
it will!"

The sales rep was present when the inspector showed up, and declared unless
the pumps are remounted on the floor, the certificate would be pulled.  I
do not know if this will change how the campers are assembled by Fleetwood
for anywhere else, but am betting they will be different here!  If anyone
reading this has a newer Fleetwood, it wouldn't hurt to take a look at how
your pump is mounted.

As far as never trusting a camper salesman - the 2005 no longer has a
lifetime roof warranty as did the 2004.  The dealership does not stock
group 31 batteries (it was put on when I brought it back for the water pump
- I hadn't noticed the battery they had put on was not what I was
promised), and of course, the Allegiance does not come standard with an
auto-switchover.

Signature

Karl & Angela
`02 Durango
`05 Fleetwood Allegiance

Jim Redelfs - 27 Oct 2005 03:16 GMT
> We thought the water pump was noisier than it should be

Yeah, like it would wake up the whole campground if you got a glass of water
at 2:00 in morning!

> What we discovered was that the water pump was a) mounted on the flimsy 3/8"
> thick piece of particle board that defined the compartment the water heater
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> vibration from the motor when it was running would eventually wear a hole
> in, or cause the line to crack - *not* a good thing!

OK.  So I overreacted.  (I went berserk when I saw what you had under the
seat.)

If anyone's interested, I just put the four pics on a web page.

http://homepage.mac.com/jimredelfs/PhotoAlbum23.html

> As far as never trusting a camper salesman

Remember:  If their lips are moving...   <grin>

> the battery they had put on was not what I was promised), and of course,
> the Allegiance does not come standard with an auto-switchover.

What an "auto-switchover" is and/or does:

An auto-switchover device is part of the regulator assembly of a dual-tank
propane system.  The valves of BOTH tanks are left wide open during use and
the auto-switchover device draws ONLY from ONE tank, until it is empty, then
automatically switches-over to the full tank.

This eliminates the unpleasant aspects of single-tank use:  Waking-up in the
COLD morning with no gas for the furnace or stove until the tank is exchanged
for a full one or refilled.  Also, any pilot lights must be re-lit.

An auto-changeover regulator might be considered by some as extra - a luxury.  
I would never be without one.

Nice camper, Karl.
                       :)
JR
Signature

2000 Skamper Ultra 249 TT
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD
Vortec 8100 - Allison 1000

AustinMN - 27 Oct 2005 14:25 GMT
<major snip>

> > As far as never trusting a camper salesman
>
> Remember:  If their lips are moving...   <grin>

I found a way to get salesmen to not promise the moon and beyond to
every customer (but it takes a while to sink in).  If said salesman
promises something that is not a part of the standard product, the
entire cost of that item comes out of the salesman's budget.  Works
very well when selling multi-million dollar equipment, and would
probably work with selling pop-ups as well.  After a while, salesmen
that don't control their tongues can't afford to work there any more.

Austin
Karl Lindholm - 28 Oct 2005 14:07 GMT
> I found a way to get salesmen to not promise the moon and beyond to
> every customer (but it takes a while to sink in).  If said salesman
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Austin

To be fair to the salesman...

The roof warranty had changed with this model year, and he was not the only
one at the dealership unaware of it.  Fleetwood (and Coleman - before the
split) made a very big deal of adding a lifetime warranty for the roofs
following the sagging/cracking roof problems as a way of assuaging customer
concerns.  They wanted all dealerships to post fliers prominently touting
it.  Wanna bet that a dealership near you doesn't still have those up?
They did not make a lot of fanfare about changing it to a 5 year.

The Allegiance is a new model and he honestly thought that the
auto-switchover was a standard item on it, and *I* didn't notice it wasn't
there when we chose it.  Though there was an argument between the salesman
and the service manager about who's budget this was coming from, I *did*
get it as promised.  (and no, I don't know who's budget it came from.)

Both from my dealings with camper salesman, at A.C. Nelson and elsewhere,
and reading here in the group, it would seem that Angela and I are unusual
in the fact that we rarely camp with any type of hookups.  If one never
dry-camps, the size of the battery is immaterial, as it is just pretty much
just power for the brakes while towing isn't it?  

I was once told by a salesman that I would be lucky to get a full night out
of a battery running the furnace, and I seem to recall someone here who
claimed to not get more than 1 or 2 nights out of a battery.  We have
gotten as many as 7 without any recharging - and have pictures of the 3-4
inches of snow one of those nights!

Given the apparent lack of people who regularly dry-camp, the service
department gave us the "standard" battery - which is fine as long as you
have hookups, but is pretty much worthless for serious dry camping, which
Angela and I do whenever we can.

I think more than anything else, my post demonstrates how important buying
from a service/customer oriented dealership is - much more so than saving a
few hundred (or even a thousand) by buying 2 towns away.  

Signature

Karl & Angela
`02 Durango
`05 Fleetwood Allegiance

Jim Redelfs - 28 Oct 2005 23:58 GMT
> The Allegiance is a new model and he honestly thought that the
> auto-switchover was a standard item on it

Were (are) dual tanks included as "standard"?

> If one never dry-camps

Pity them.   :\

> the size of the battery is immaterial, as it is just pretty much
> just power for the brakes while towing isn't it?

Not exactly.

While towing, the TOW vehicle provides trailer braking power.  The camper
battery is necessary ONLY for activating the trailer brakes in the event of a
separation from the tow vehicle and the "dead man" lanyard is pulled.

I have seen minimum battery requirements for a storage battery on-board if the
battery is ONLY for emergency brake activation.  I recall it was of the
lantern battery type.  (Dexter axle & brake info?)

> I was once told by a salesman that I would be lucky to get
> a full night out of a battery running the furnace

His lips were moving.   <sigh>

> and I seem to recall someone here who
> claimed to not get more than 1 or 2 nights out of a battery.

I don't THINK that was me.  When we had the Galaxy, keeping all five of us
warm overnight in Yellowstone in early June, I ran the furnace three nights
before recharging.  Note I didn't say it was NECESSARY to recharge (the
battery probably could have run the furnace a fourth night), but that I
recharged it after the third night just to be "safe".  Also, I might have done
damage to the battery discharging it further.

> We have gotten as many as 7 without any recharging

That's pretty impressive but you may have done some damage to the battery with
such a deep cycle.  Experts recommend no more than a 50% discharge for
recharge.  How do you determine WHEN to recharge?

> and have pictures of the 3-4
> inches of snow one of those nights!

Oops!  Extra insulation does NOT count!   <grin>

> Given the apparent lack of people who regularly dry-camp

Pity them.  However, mores the seclusion for those who DO dry camp.

> the service department gave us the "standard" battery

Group 24

> which is fine as long as you have hookups

Aw, my Group 24 ("regular"-size battery) did just FINE for us when the
Starcraft was first new.  We spent a whole WEEK dry-camped on Lake McConaughy.  
Of course, we never ran the furnace!   :)

> but is pretty much worthless for serious dry camping

Hogwash!  Two of them wired in parallel work JUST FINE!   :)

> I think more than anything else, my post demonstrates how important buying
> from a service/customer oriented dealership is - much more so than saving a
> few hundred (or even a thousand) by buying 2 towns away.

Yeah, they ALL do WARRANTY work but, after that...

           :)
JR
Karl Lindholm - 29 Oct 2005 14:55 GMT
>> The Allegiance is a new model and he honestly thought that the
>> auto-switchover was a standard item on it
>
> Were (are) dual tanks included as "standard"?

Perhaps I should have used the term "factory installed".  I am sure that one
could talk their way into a dealer supplied pair of propane tanks, but we
only were promised, and received one.  

>> the size of the battery is immaterial, as it is just pretty much
>> just power for the brakes while towing isn't it?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> battery is necessary ONLY for activating the trailer brakes in the event
> of a separation from the tow vehicle and the "dead man" lanyard is pulled.

OK, *emergency* power for the brakes while towing.  If one never camped off
off hook-ups, that would be the extent of it's use, no?  Anything else
would run off of shore power, except if you were to run the fridge on 12V,
and then it would come off the TV battery/charging system.

>> I was once told by a salesman that I would be lucky to get
>> a full night out of a battery running the furnace
>
> His lips were moving.   <sigh>

He also worked for a dealership that only stocked group 24's, and perhaps
had never dry camped himself.

>> and I seem to recall someone here who
>> claimed to not get more than 1 or 2 nights out of a battery.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> recharged it after the third night just to be "safe".  Also, I might have
> done damage to the battery discharging it further.

I *know* it wasn't you, Jim, but the person making the claim most most
insistant that one could not use the battery for furnace power for more
than one night.

>> We have gotten as many as 7 without any recharging
>
> That's pretty impressive but you may have done some damage to the battery
> with
> such a deep cycle.  Experts recommend no more than a 50% discharge for
> recharge.  How do you determine WHEN to recharge?

It's dead, Jim. ;)  (not really)

Actually, I believe we did shorten the life of the battery on that trip by a
substantial margin.  After that, I took to hooking up the jumper cables to
the battery every other morning for 20-30 minutes - at least, until we got
the Honda.  Now, we fire up Angela's "$1,000 toaster" for about an hour
each morning, and let it do some charging while we cook, eat and clean up
after.

Angela's *only* complaint about camping was she could not have toast with
her eggs to sop up the yolks in the morning.  We had tried the camp toast
maker things, but we thought they did a better job of drying out the bread
than it did toasting it.

That reminds me.  I asked about the converter/charger's charging
rate/capability when I was purchasing the Allegiance.  After consulting the
shop, George (the salesman) told us it was little more than a trickle
charger at best.  When I read the manual that came with it, it seemed much
more than that.  

The manual does not give an amperage for the charging rate, but states that
it is a "smart" 3-stage charger, and can recharge a "depleted" HD
deep-cycle battery in about 4 hours.  It gives voltages as to when it does
what type of charge.  (I can't recall the numbers, and the manual is in the
camper in storage.)  It does a "big" recharge when the voltage drops to the
specified (low) number, a "maintenance" or "up-keep" charge when it is at a
higher voltage, and goes into a "storage" mode if it detects no, or very
little demand - i.e. the propane leak detector - including a 1 hour blast
of heavier charging every so often (24 hrs? 48 hrs?) to extend the battery
life.  

>> I think more than anything else, my post demonstrates how important
>> buying from a service/customer oriented dealership is - much more so than
>> saving a few hundred (or even a thousand) by buying 2 towns away.
>
> Yeah, they ALL do WARRANTY work but, after that...

A. C. Nelson did the work they did on mine with Fleetwood initially saying
they would *not* cover the work they planned.  That most likely changed
after the state inspector had his say, but they had already done the work
on mine before the inspector "inspected".  They showed him the digital
pictures you had taken, Jim, telling the dealership to go ahead and fix
mine as they intended.

I am sure there are a lot of dealerships out there that would not have taken
the chance.  I got the impression they weren't so worried about mine
specifically (they could eat it if they had to), but had 15 other units on
the lot that might need the same type of attention, as well as ones that
might come back that they had already sold.  Likely much more work than
they wanted to put in on their own dime.

Hey, are you, me and AustinMN the only ones reading this group these days?
A real lack of postings lately!

Signature

Karl & Angela
`02 Durango
`05 Fleetwood Allegiance

Jim Redelfs - 29 Oct 2005 15:53 GMT
> OK, *emergency* power for the brakes while towing.  If one never camped off
> off hook-ups, that would be the extent of it's use, no?

Yes.

> Anything else would run off of shore power, except if you were to run the
> fridge on 12V, and then it would come off the TV battery/charging system.

Unless things have changed, it is recommended to NOT operate a 3-way
refrigerator set to 12VDC when NOT towing.  At least, that was what the
manual(s) said on my old popup.  I suspect that was because the converter (no
charger) didn't have enough output to do it.

Especially if/when dry camping one wants as much output of the
converter/charger to go to CHARGING the battery.

Many folks find their refrigerator works BETTER using propane.

> the person making the claim was most insistant that one could not use
> the battery for furnace power for more than one night.

That's just silly.  Unless you are camped in weather WELL below freezing, a
properly-sized and operating furnace could easily be powered by a Group 24
battery for two nights, at least.

> Angela's *only* complaint about camping was she could not have toast with
> her eggs to sop up the yolks in the morning.  We had tried the camp toast
> maker things, but we thought they did a better job of drying out the bread
> than it did toasting it.

You mean that darned, wire & sheetmetal contraption where you prop-up four
slices of bread over an open stove flame?  If yes, they are completely
worthless.

> Hey, are you, me and AustinMN the only ones reading this group these days?

So it seems.

> A real lack of postings lately!

I also follow news:alt.rv.  It has a little more traffic.

           :)
JR
Mark Filice - 29 Oct 2005 16:28 GMT
>> Hey, are you, me and AustinMN the only ones reading this group these days?
>
>So it seems.

I drop in from time to time. My wife's uncle Mike passed away suddenly this week
and I've been preoccupied with that 8-(

Our only dry camping is (was) in September every year at a County Park that
Uncle Mike loved to go to celebrate his birthday. So last month was his last
camping trip 8-( He always stayed in this old canvas tent, and we went from a
tent to a popup to our TT over the last 15 years.

We use our trailer more to just get away than to actually camp. So we prefer
full hook-ups.

I'm going to miss Uncle Mike a lot. He helped me a lot with home projects and I
recently had to re-attach the bottom of a kitchen cabinet in the trailer. He had
a huge supply of nails so I could pick the perfect kind for the repair.

He was a helluva a nice guy, and I will really miss him.

Mark Filice
2004 Homestead Settler 255RS
1999 Chevrolet Suburban 2500
tobe - 29 Oct 2005 17:25 GMT
We have a small square (8 inch?) aluminum camping griddle with a detachable
handle which we use to make toast.  Griddle Toast is a camping tradition in
the family.  A little butter on the griddle or each side of the bread (if
warm enough) and then pop it on the griddle on low - after heating it up on
high first.  Great stuff!

> Angela's *only* complaint about camping was she could not have toast with
> her eggs to sop up the yolks in the morning.  We had tried the camp toast
> maker things, but we thought they did a better job of drying out the bread
> than it did toasting it.

>You mean that darned, wire & sheetmetal contraption where you prop-up four
>slices of bread over an open stove flame?  If yes, they are completely
>worthless.
Chris Cowles - 29 Oct 2005 18:25 GMT
> We have a small square (8 inch?) aluminum camping griddle with a
> detachable handle which we use to make toast.  Griddle Toast is a camping
> tradition in the family.  A little butter on the griddle or each side of
> the bread (if warm enough) and then pop it on the griddle on low - after
> heating it up on high first.  Great stuff!

To work correctly, I think you have to use real butter, or a stick
margarine. The more fat, the better. The spreadable/low-fat types have too
much water in them to work well for this purpose.
Signature

Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL
'00 Coleman Mesa/'05 Durango Hemi

Karl Lindholm - 29 Oct 2005 20:10 GMT
> We use our trailer more to just get away than to actually camp. So we
> prefer full hook-ups.

It's all a matter of taste I guess.  We don't want to "camp" necessarily,
but we do want to get away.  Setting up so your awning is only a few large
steps away from the back of another trailer doesn't feel we're "getting
away", but to each their own.  Most campgrounds make us feel like we are in
a trailer park - which we *are* of course, but you know what I mean.

Signature

Karl & Angela
`02 Durango
`05 Fleetwood Allegiance

Chris Cowles - 29 Oct 2005 18:22 GMT
>> Hey, are you, me and AustinMN the only ones reading this group these
>> days?
>
> So it seems.

That would be a wrong impression. But it would be a correct to say you may
be the only ones posting.

>> A real lack of postings lately!
>
> I also follow news:alt.rv.  It has a little more traffic.

And a lot more OT arguments and political garbage.

Signature

Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL
'00 Coleman Mesa/'05 Durango Hemi

Jim Redelfs - 29 Oct 2005 22:29 GMT
> > I also follow news:alt.rv.  It has a little more traffic.

> And a lot more OT arguments and political garbage.

I'm not sure sure about the "lot" part.  This newsgroup lately seems to have
"joined the big boys" as it regards flames and OT discussion.

If you want LOTS of static and noise, visit news:rec.outdoors.rv-travel.

            :)
JR
Chris Cowles - 30 Oct 2005 03:43 GMT
>> And a lot more OT arguments and political garbage.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> If you want LOTS of static and noise, visit news:rec.outdoors.rv-travel.

I read both. Perhaps I was confusing the two. It's sad, either way.
Signature

Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL
'00 Coleman Mesa/'05 Durango Hemi

Dale & Betty - 31 Oct 2005 04:44 GMT
Hi All,
   I have been following all discussions but others pretty well
covered what I had to say, so I kept quiet.
   Concerning the folding toasters:  I agree that if you use the
standard stove, they are bread driers then toasters.  But we have
used them for years; I ended up getting a burner that mounts on
top of a 1 lb. propane tank just for making toast; you can turn
it up to a high enough heat so that the sheet metal gets red hot
and then you put the bread on and twist it top to bottom on one
side when the bottom browns, then turn it over and repeat and you
get near perfect toast.  If you have the newer high pressure
stoves they will to the job.

Signature

[Dale] & Betty
97 Coleman Cheyenne replaced by a 25SL Caravan
97 Toyota T100 replaced by a GMC Sierra

"Jim Redelfs" <jim.redelfs@redelfs.com> wrote>

> > Angela's *only* complaint about camping was she could not have toast with
> > her eggs to sop up the yolks in the morning.  We had tried the camp toast
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> JR
Mike T. - 02 Nov 2005 12:23 GMT
>> OK, *emergency* power for the brakes while towing.  If one never camped
>> off
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>            :)
> JR

On that toaster thing,   I found that if you turn the gas up REAL HIGH it
works ok.
for me anyway. Any thing less and the bread just kinda sits there.

mike
Fred Boer - 29 Oct 2005 22:46 GMT
Dear Karl:

Well, I lurk here reading... and I've learned lots of useful stuff, but I
haven't much to say! I suspect lots of people are lurking but not chatting!

Fred Boer

Coleman Taos
'04 Toyota Sienna

> >> The Allegiance is a new model and he honestly thought that the
> >> auto-switchover was a standard item on it
[quoted text clipped - 102 lines]
> Hey, are you, me and AustinMN the only ones reading this group these days?
> A real lack of postings lately!
Jim Redelfs - 30 Oct 2005 10:49 GMT
> I suspect lots of people are lurking but not chatting!

I'm with you.  There's probably more than we know.

It's OK to just lurk.  It's easy, really.  The biggest challenge for those
that post is to keep the "discussion" on topic.

How old is your Coleman Taos, Fred?

Karl tried pretty hard to sell his former camping trailer, a Taos, to my
brother during our group camp last weekend.  We'll see.

I just flushed the tanks, installed antifreeze and spotted my camper for the
upcoming winter.   :(

I have a few more things I need to do before I lock it up (it's next to our
house), but at least I don't have to worry about freeze damage.

Karl put his new trailer in his garage.  I'm jealous.   :\

Do you use the water pump on your Taos?

          :)
JR
Signature

2000 Skamper Ultra 249 TT
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD
Vortec 8100 - Allison 1000

Fred Boer - 31 Oct 2005 03:52 GMT
Hello Jim!

Short, concise answer:

My Coleman Taos is a 2000. We've never used the water system in the trailer.

Long, chatty answer full of irrelevant details:

My wife and I used to tent camp frequently before we had our two boys. After
the kids came, the joys of sleeping on the ground, getting soaked and cold
began to seem less entertaining. We saw a couple with a Taos one camping
trip, and we were sold! We weren't interested in using serviced camp sites,
and haven't ever wanted to use the sink or water hookup. The propane stove
is very handy, however, and we use it all the time. Our trailer has a
propane furnace and marine battery. (I've been reading the posts about
batteries with interest!). The Taos is small enough to fit on most tent
campsites, and we love being dry/warm and up off of the ground. The
battery-powered lights are very nice, too, for reading, etc. We have been
very happy with our Taos and would recommend it to anyone.

We've towed the trailer with three vehicles: a Subaru Loyale wagon, a Subaru
Legacy wagon, and, now, a Toyota Sienna (although we've only had one short
tow with the Sienna to this point). I first found this newsgroup when I
bought the trailer and wanted advice about towing with the Loyale. People
said it wasn't an appropriate tow vehicle. I didn't have an option and towed
anyway, but, in retrospect, they were right! The Loyale was woefully
underpowered, and, coming down a long hill into Fundy National Park, our
brakes smoked and faded away into nothing, which was, of course, really
where the problem was!

Cheers!
Fred

> > I suspect lots of people are lurking but not chatting!
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>            :)
> JR
Karl Lindholm - 31 Oct 2005 15:56 GMT
> Hello Jim!
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> The battery-powered lights are very nice, too, for reading, etc. We have
> been very happy with our Taos and would recommend it to anyone.

The Taos we have has served us well for several years.  I plan on taking the
For Sale sign off of it today, as I will use it once more as a base camp
while deer hunting this December.  I figure it will be easier to heat than
our new Allegiance (which is stuffed into the garage and winterized
anyway).

We used the water bottle, sink and stove quite often.  We always also had
(at least one) 5 gallon jug outside and Angela did the bulk of the dishes
outside, but the hand pump and sink worked fine for rinsing out coffee
cups, and as an enclosed place to take the infamous "bird baths" that are
needed after a day or two of camping when boon-docking.

> We've towed the trailer with three vehicles: a Subaru Loyale wagon, a
> Subaru Legacy wagon, and, now, a Toyota Sienna (although we've only had
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Park, our brakes smoked and faded away into nothing, which was, of course,
> really where the problem was!

We towed the Taos the first few years we had it with a Nissan 4-banger
pickup.  We were *well* within the rated towing limit - IIRC, the Nissan
was rated at somewhere around 3500# - thus we were towing around 50% of
capacity, even when you included all the "stuff" that went with us.  That
rating was such a joke!  

On the gentle hills we have here in eastern Nebraska, we often had it to the
floor in 4th gear to try to maintain 50 MPH.  I am of the opinion from that
experience that foreign (Asian) manufacturers have a *much* different
criteria to establish tow ratings than do American car makers.

Smoking, fading brakes?  Have you never heard of down-shifting?  Don't
*ever* go down a long steep grade - towing or not - in a gear that requires
you to constantly ride the brakes in anything!  Angela and I have had the
Taos many, many times in the Snowy and Big Horn mountains, and coming down
the 10% and greater grades kept the Nissan, and now keep the Durango, in
2nd gear (sometimes even 1st!) and only had/have to use the brakes
occasionally.  

Having brakes "fade to nothing" as you're coming off a mountain is a *VERY*
bad thing!  If we see you behind us with brakes that are smoking - we WILL
get out of your way, as we know you might loose control!  Don't worry, we
will help you put out the possible brake fire when we catch up to you again
(if you're still near the road at least).  Helping put out brake fires is
something both my dad, and Angela's dad have had to do before for people
who didn't know how to drive down steep grades!

Signature

Karl & Angela
`02 Durango
`05 Fleetwood Allegiance

Fred Boer - 31 Oct 2005 18:22 GMT
Hello Karl!

> Smoking, fading brakes?  Have you never heard of down-shifting?  Don't

Well, yes, but was I using engine braking at that moment? I doubt it...

> Having brakes "fade to nothing" as you're coming off a mountain is a
> *VERY*
> bad thing!  If we see you behind us with brakes that are smoking - we WILL

Yes, well, that was my point! I had no brakes at the end of the hill and was
just lucky that I was *at* the bottom of the hill as the brakes had faded
away completely. It was a very scary moment for me, and I knew without
question then that the Loyale wasn't a suitable towing vehicle. We never
towed with it again after that trip.

> (if you're still near the road at least).  Helping put out brake fires is
> something both my dad, and Angela's dad have had to do before for people
> who didn't know how to drive down steep grades!

Well, I was lucky enough not to have a fire, and I'm smart enough not to
make that same mistake again!

Cheers!
Fred
Tomes - 31 Oct 2005 02:50 GMT
Another regular lurker <grin>.
Tomes

> Dear Karl:
>
[quoted text clipped - 127 lines]
> > Hey, are you, me and AustinMN the only ones reading this group these days?
> > A real lack of postings lately!
Tony Wesley - 03 Nov 2005 02:49 GMT
> Hey, are you, me and AustinMN the only ones reading this group these days?
> A real lack of postings lately!

Not the only ones.  I was in Chicago last weekend, (hotel-ing it, not
camping), so I didn't see the above question until today.
Bithead - 29 Oct 2005 18:25 GMT
>>The Allegiance is a new model and he honestly thought that the
>>auto-switchover was a standard item on it
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> battery is necessary ONLY for activating the trailer brakes in the event of a
> separation from the tow vehicle and the "dead man" lanyard is pulled.

Not exactly.

The truck is providing charging to the battery in the trailer, and the
trailer battery provides the power needed for the brakes.

> I have seen minimum battery requirements for a storage battery on-board if the
> battery is ONLY for emergency brake activation.  I recall it was of the
> lantern battery type.  (Dexter axle & brake info?)
>
>>I was once told by a salesman that I would be lucky to get
>>a full night out of a battery running the furnace

The deep cycle stuff will last a bit longer, and will give you perhaps 4
hours of run time on the average heater, before you're half-drained.
YMMV, of course.

I've found though, if all you're running is the lights, (say, a warm
week in summer) You can get a week out of a grp24, before it gets to be
a problem.
Jim Redelfs - 29 Oct 2005 22:37 GMT
> The truck is providing charging to the battery in the trailer,

OK so far.

> and the trailer battery provides the power needed for the brakes.

Not while towing.  Do you think the brake controller controls the CAMPER
battery output?  Not so.

Try this:  Disconnect or remove the camper battery and then go towing
fully-connected to the tow vehicle.  You'll notice the brakes work normally,
receiving their power from the controller up front in the tow vehicle - not
the (disconnected/missing) camper battery.

Again, a battery on-board a camper is absolutely essential ONLY for activation
of the brakes in the event the deadman lanyard is pulled activating the
trailer brakes.

Of course, depending on the capacity of the charge line that runs from the tow
vehicle alternator to the camper battery, BOTH batteries (tow vehicle AND
trailer) could (and probably should) be considered part of a SINGLE system.

          :)
JR
Bithead - 30 Oct 2005 04:54 GMT
>>The truck is providing charging to the battery in the trailer,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Not while towing.  Do you think the brake controller controls the CAMPER
> battery output?  Not so.

> Try this:  Disconnect or remove the camper battery and then go towing
> fully-connected to the tow vehicle.  You'll notice the brakes work normally,
> receiving their power from the controller up front in the tow vehicle - not
> the (disconnected/missing) camper battery.

Correct so far.

> Again, a battery on-board a camper is absolutely essential ONLY for activation
> of the brakes in the event the deadman lanyard is pulled activating the
> trailer brakes.

Again, true.

> Of course, depending on the capacity of the charge line that runs from the tow
> vehicle alternator to the camper battery, BOTH batteries (tow vehicle AND
> trailer) could (and probably should) be considered part of a SINGLE system.

And again, true.
But here's the difference; If the two batteries are on the one charging
system.....
 
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