Happy to chat with you!

Yes, an Outback has more power. And you might, because of the raised
suspension, be able to see over the top of the pop-up (another problem I
failed to mention!). However, horsepower was never an issue for me - just
tongue weight...

My dealer swore that the Legacy would easily manage my trailer... but, my
experience suggests my dealer had a rather rosy outlook....Still, your
mileage may vary.

Maybe the Outback is a better tow vehicle. I certainly have enjoyed both the
Loyale we once drove and the Legacy we drive now. (Although, to be honest,
the Loyale lost an engine at 100,000 km, and the Legacy needed new head
gaskets at 90,000 km - hardly the stuff of Subaru reliability legend! Still,
both covered under warranty... - but not the new radiator that I needed at
100,000... but I digress! <g>)

We actually used the Loyale to pull our pop-up, too; but in retrospect that
was clearly unsafe. The brakes were not close to good enough, as we proved
on a long downgrade on our final trip with the Loyale as a tow vehicle.

Our Legacy is rated for 2000 pounds. The Taos is theoretically about 1000
pounds, but with battery and propane tank and packing, would certainly be
more than that. What's the Outback rated? Is it higher?

We now use a Toyota Sienna as our tow vehicle. It is better suited.
Although, I hate driving the Sienna compared to the Subie!!

Cheers!
Fred

Not so dumb, Fred, if one has not run across it yet <grin>.  You have a
pop-up.  A TT is a travel trailer - the ones that are fuller size with hard
walls already in place and hook up with a 'normal' trailer hitch (but likely
a more elaborate one).  Then come the 5th wheels that hook up in a pick-up's
bed.  Then you have the motorhomes, class B (elaborated vans), C (motorhome
with a van-like front end) and A (bus) in increasing size.  Oh - there are
also truck campers, that slide into the back of a capable pickup truck.
Lookey here:
http://www.rv-coach.com/rv/types/classes/rv_types.html
Tomes

Ok, so I look dumb... what's the definition of "TT" and "Popup". I have a
Coleman Taos. I would call it a "tent trailer".

Thanks!
Fred

 "Jimbo" <no@spam.com> wrote in message
news:kqUDf.48957$PL5.1612@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
 I've migrated to the dark side and bought a TT, but I've had lots of good
times camping in a popup.  So here's my 2 cents regarding your question.

 If you want amenities (and you should), that's going to mean a heavier
popup.  I had a '99 Jayco 12ST that was 3100 pounds loaded.  That included a
shower, toilet, hotwater heater, fridge w/ freezer, furnace, air, full
tanks, and supplies.

 Power when dry camping?  You bet.  Two basic approaches.  One approach is
to go buy a Honda EU1000 or EU2000 generator.  You buy this particular
generator because it is as quiet as you can get and you DON'T want to
disturb your neighbors.  To make the generator even less loud, I cabled,
when circumstances permitted, over 100 feet away from the campsite out into
the woods to make it even less loud for me and neighbors.  Generally, an
hour or two a day will recharge your batteries.  Depending on several
variables, you may even get the EU2000 to run the air which is real treat on
a hot day.  Pros to this is it's easy and plenty of power.  Cons are cost
and noise.

 The other is power via the car and a solar panel.  No air-conditioning in
this scenario.  But the premise is you have two batteries and have a spot to
charge one in the car when you're on the move.  So when you go out for day
trips, you can be charging your battery.  When you get back to camp, swap
out the batteries so the weaker one gets charged the next day.  I did this
for years.  I had people come up to me and ask how I ran my SATV dish
without ever running a generator.  Well, that's how.  Also a 25 watt solar
panel (or better if you can) will help charge on days you don't drive all
that much.  Pros cheaper and no noise.  Cons, more work to do.

 Otherwise, the propane will run the fridge, hot water, and heat.  I'd
recommend two tanks so that when one runs out you've got another.  If you do
this right, you can be out in the middle of *nowhere* with a popup and live
extremely comfortably.  I bought the TT because I could financially and
because the setup is easier and better insulated during hot and cold
weather.  Otherwise, popups are king and this is coming from a current (and
happy) TT owner.

 A couple tips on grey water and black water when dry camping.  There's a
lot of people out here that believe it's wrong to dump grey water (you'll
have to listen to their points of view and decide for yourself).  But I'm in
the camp (no pun intended) that believe it's okay.  Hook a bucket up to the
side of the camper and dump it after washing dishes into the brush.  Makes
life easy.  With black water, never dump that into the brush period.
However, because popups have these neat cartridge like tanks, you can take
it to the outhouse and dump it in there.  Very clean and no mess.  It's
great.  I really *miss* being able to that in a TT.

 For $5,000 you *should* be able to find something that is loaded if it's 5
years old or more.  But I'd recommend a better car for towing (pickup or SUV
would be ideal).  Those Outbacks are nice cars though...I don't blame you
for wanting one of those but they just are too borderline for larger popups.
But if you can do without a toilet, shower and maybe air, you could get the
weight down enough to do it the way you want (maybe).

 Lastly, I was in the same boat with family camping in the 70's.  Let me
tell you, the satisfaction of doing this again yourself will (or should) be
huge.  It was for me.  So buy a camper!  Even if it's an old tiny one to
start.  Hope this helps.  Have fun!

   "Bill S" <indianabill68@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1138744275.796573.94100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
   Hello all,
   I have really grown fond of the memories of my family taking the pop up
   cross-country when I was a child back in the 70's. The bug has bitten
   and now I plan to sell my old Subaru legacy and the BMW. In their place
   I want to get a newer Subaru, the 6 cylinder Outback and a pop up
   trailer. It's just my wife and I. No kids or pets.
   the H6 Outback seems to be capable of towing a small pop up. I think
   the rating is somewhere around 2700-2900 with the tow package. Has
   anyone used this car to tow? I want to be able to traverse mountains
   without too much trouble ( I am familiar with the 75% rule). Is all
   wheel drive a good thing to have for towing?
   Secondly, I am looking for a good, used pop up under $5,000. We like
   the amenities like toilet, heat, stove, and possibly air conditioning.
   Sleeping space is not important since it's just the 2 of us. I have
   seen that there are a few trailers out there that have one bed on the
   end. Are there any advantages, disadvantages to such a design? Are
   there any models that some of you could recommend? In my internet
   research I have gotten familiar with the Coleman (Fleetwood) line and
   they seem to be ok but my knowledge is limited. How do they compare
   with other brands?
   Also, we will probably be doing some dry camping and I would like to
   know if some models have a way of supplying power when there is none.
   Is that enough questions at once?

   Bill
   Maryland, near DC

Hey Bill.  Regarding the solar panel, you can get these a Camping World.  If you're not inclined to charge batteries when doing day trips, then I'd suggest as large of a solar panel as you can afford (and can carry space wise).  However, I might suggest on a cold winter's eve getting a six-pack of good beer (Sam Adams White Ale might be a place to start) and curl up with your computer and search solar panels.  Of course, I have no life and this something I would do (and have done).  There are probably better deals from Internet sites on certain types of solar panels.  

Regarding amenities, ya that's a tough thing.  Your remark about the 75% rule shows you have a clue about the margin of safety needed in tow ratings.  Armed with that important sensitivity, if you can find a camper that's got what you want and meets that rule, then you're okay.  However, at the risk of putting your family's safety at risk, here's a few other ways to look at this that might allow you to get a heavier trailer than might otherwise be a good idea.

Brakes are important.  So suppose you get a trailer that's much closer to the tow rating of the Subaru than 75%.  Make sure it has brakes.  One of the limitations of tow vehicles with low tow ratings is the braking system.  So compensate by putting brakes on the popup if it doesn't already have them.  Another issue is sway.  If your popup doesn't have hydraulic surge brakes, consider getting a sway bar and maybe even a weight distributing hitch.  This will tax the car less and make things more controllable.  Lastly, is engine power.  If you're going to run close to the weight limit of the car, don't go into the mountains because the elevation will rob you of precious engine power.  You might get a little power by running higher octane gas but that won't buy you all that much.  Lastly, weigh your car and trailer at a truck stop weigh station.  Ignorance is bliss but a badly overloaded RV setup = death.  So know *exactly* how overloaded you are so that if you overloaded a tad...it's an educated calculation that you're doing on purpose rather than falling into because you don't know any better.  And if you're going to run close to the max weightwise and not travel all that far from home, that might be more acceptable than if you plan to travel across the country that way.

Somebody should probably flame me for telling you this but you seem like a sensible guy...I think this might help you figure out what to do.  At the end of the day, be safe but whatever you do....camp!!!  :)

 Jimbo,
 Thanks for the advice. I was hoping to keep my trailer choice small for
 cost reasons and because the car we want will only allow it. An SUV or
 pickup is not really an option as they are both too big and costly for
 the 99% of the time that we won't be using it to tow. Maybe I will have
 to do without some of the amenities. We are used to it, having spent
 the last several years backpacking with a tent. I was just hoping that
 there would be a model of trailer that is both small and has some
 luxeries. The new Coleman Evolution (E 1) is pretty close to what I am
 looking for but they are new and too expensive.
 The solar panel thing sounds great! where do you get one of those
 things?
 Bill

For starters, this is the Mayberry newsgroup.  Very little spam, angst, and OT.  Just the way I like!  And, I wanted to expand on Mr. Redelfs comments on the EU2000.  Yes, the EU2000 is truly a marginal generator for air.  Other variables include elevation (I've been places out west where it would not do the job), AC model (some need too much surge...i.e. Dometic's are better than Coleman's I hear), and temperature.  If it gets really hot, the amount of surge needed to start the AC is higher than it is at a cooler temp (that's what I've been told anyway).  That said, I had a 13.5k BTU Dometic in my old popup and the EU2000 ran it provided the elevation wasn't too bad. I remember one trip to Everglades Nat'l Park in February '04 and it got into the high 80's and was humid in the mid-late afternoon.  So I figured, why not run the air while I'm charging the batteries?  Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.  That was nice.  Technology is wonderful so long as it works.  :)

Some more unsolicited advice:  tires.  Popups, like a lot of RV's, do not have enough cargo capacity.  My Jayco was rated 2100 dry and up to 2750 loaded.  But I really ran it close to 3200.  Perhaps one might suspect I had trouble with that?  Oh yes.  I lost tires.  Here's the fix.  If you go over the max weight in a popup, do two things (three really).  Be anal soup Nazi's (Seinfeld reference) about tire air pressure.  Then *never* run more than two or three seasons on a pair of tires.  And, if your particular camper allows, put a higher weight rated tire on your camper.  Okay...just thought of a fourth...slow down when it gets hot.  100 degrees and 75 miles an hour makes trailer tires cranky.  Just like I get cranky when I pull into a campsite and can't build a fire because it's raining  :)

 In article <kqUDf.48957$PL5.1612@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>,
  "Jimbo" <no@spam.com> wrote:

 > I've migrated to the dark side and bought a TT, but I've had lots of good
 > times camping in a popup.

 Same here.  Thirteen years with three growing girls in our popup.  The biggest
 trip was five nights in Yellowstone and four in Grand Tetons National Parks.

 http://www.nps.gov/yell/home.htm

 http://www.nps.gov/grte/index.htm

 > Power when dry camping?  You bet.  Two basic approaches.  One approach is to
 > go buy a Honda EU1000 or EU2000 generator.

 Dry camping is a regular thing for us since I got the EU2000i.

 http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/ModelDetail.asp?ModelName=eu2000i

 http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/ModelDetail.asp?ModelName=eu1000i

 > Depending on several variables, you may even get the EU2000 to run
 > the air which is real treat on a hot day.

 Several variables, indeed.  The 2000i is officially NOT capable of running the
 typical, 13,500-btu RV roof air.  The 2000i is rated at 1600-watts with
 2000-watts SURGE.

 It MIGHT be able to fire the compressor once the fan is running, but it would
 surely have the generator running continuously at PEAK.  I wouldn't do that to
 something I paid $1k for.

 My big decision prior to generator purchase was whether or not it would run
 the roof air.  If yes, it would take TWO people to transport the generator
 (not very portable), if no, I could (and can) handle it myself.  I decided
 that, if it was SOOOOOOO stinkin' HOT that I couldn't stand camping without
 air conditioning, I have two choices:  Find an electrical hookup or stay home.

 > Pros to this is it's easy and plenty of power.  Cons are cost and noise.

 With the exception of the microwave and air conditioner, I can enjoy all the
 comforts of home (hot and cold, running water, refrigerator, a flush toilet,
 lights and a gas furnace) using only battery and propane.  I chose the
 generator for the "pros" you cite.  Running the genset a couple of hours,
 every other day, to recharge the battery is GREAT!

 > A couple tips on grey water and black water when dry camping.  There's a lot
 > of people out here that believe it's wrong to dump grey water (you'll have to
 > listen to their points of view and decide for yourself).  But I'm in the camp
 > (no pun intended) that believe it's okay.

 In high use areas, I can see the need to restrict (ban) the emptying of gray
 water on the ground.  Those areas include national park campgrounds.  
 Otherwise, I usually drain the gray water on the ground.  While this practice
 is aesthetically unpleasant to some, it's NOT nuclear waste after all.

 >  With black water, never dump that into the brush period.

 Well, certainly not DOWNWIND of it!   <big grin>

 Seriously, you are right, of course.

 > However, because popups have these neat cartridge like tanks,
 > you can take it to the outhouse and dump it in there.

 You are referring to a "cassette" toilet.  They are great but are found on
 caomparatively FEW popup campers.  Most popup users have a portable toilet
 with virtually the same convenience as the cassette toilet:  You simply take
 it to a toilet and empty it.

 > Very clean and no mess.  It's great.  I really *miss*
 > being able to that in a TT.

 Yeah, getting in line with the camper and tow vehicle to use the campground
 dump can be boring.  Fortunately, I've been able to avoid that for the most
 part.  We seem to stay longer on a Sunday afternoon than many of the weekend
 RVers.
 --
             :)
 JR

 2000 Skamper Ultra 249 TT
 2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD
 Vortec 8100 - Allison 1000

Actually, Jim, we do this about 3-4 times per year: twice at my friend's
dad's place where we all camp in his woods and get a roaring fire going for
Friday to Monday.  There we run wires from his shed and set up a band shell
so we can plug all of our stuff in (yep, that is hammered dulcimer and
washtub bass gone electric for my part [with homemade pickups]) and rock the
place out.  Then we go acoustic around the fire later on when it calms down
a bit.  Getting hammered is indeed part of the deal as well <grin>.  We even
have neighbors just show up and play with us too.  Korgs are welcome indeed.

Then we go to at least two folk music festivals where we listen to the
professionals on stage all day until about midnight and then have campfires
until dawn at least.  You never know what you will run into musically in
those places and it is extremely fun and broadening.
Tomes

With the just two of you for SURE, and as hikers and backpackers, I expect a
little, eight-foot box Coleman Taos (for example - used) would work nicely
behind a 6-cylinder Outback.  You'd still have to keep and eye on weight, but
you could probably do it properly and comfortably.

Shop around for small popups.  As backpackers, you will revel in the simple
pleasure of simply sleeping OFF the ground and in the warm.

I think the six-banger could do it properly.  It wouldn't be a ball of fire
going over the Continental Divide in Colorado, but how often do you plan to do
that?

Get an eight-foot box popup with a PROPER furnace and you can dry camp - WARM
- for days with nary an electrical outlet in sight.

Refrigerators, water pumps and built-in toilets add WEIGHT as well as expense.

Then look at Aliners and Chalets, they have some light models. Best of
all setup is under a minute.

Bill.. as they say, "been there, done that"..

Get the car, and enjoy it.. maintain it and keep it a long time...

When the urge for a larger, more comfortable RV gets you, (and it will as you
get the habit and *groan* older), buy a 2nd vehicle, preferably a pickup or
large suv, to tow your new and next few rv's..
Mac
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

"Curb weight is no longer used. Empty weight is the correct term now
and it includes a full tank of gas and the driver."

That may give me a few hundred more pounds of breathing room over
tobe's calculations, correct?

On 1 Feb 2006 11:31:53 -0800, you wrote:

Transmission?  How many with automatics, and how many times have they
rebuilt the transmission?  They may get away with it if they have the
manual.

Dear Bill:

Like I said... lots of advice!

If you had asked me before my long trip about towing with my Legacy, I might
have had a different opinion, probably similar to that you have gotten from
other Subie owners. However, the worn tires didn't lie... And my trailer is
theoretically less than 1000 pounds! For a number of years, I towed my
trailer with a 98 hp Subaru Loyale - and I would have said that things were
fine! When I got to the bottom of a mountain in a cloud of brake smoke, with
my brakes completely faded away, and only luck saving me and my family from
an accident, well, then I finally realized I had an inappropriate tow
vehicle. Obviously the brakes on the Outback are much, much better than the
Loyale, and I sure do understand the attraction of the Subaru! I really like
driving mine! You are obviously doing some good research - at this point,
all I can say is good luck, and I hope whatever you end up doing works well
for you!

Be sure to visit here and report on your experiences!

Cheers!
Fred

Remember, it is unlikely that you'll get someone to post anything like, "I was
a complete idiot:  The transmission swap cost as much as the trailer!"

Ha! Ha! OK, OK I get it. Thou shall not tow without trailer brakes! :)
Seriously, you guys have all been a great help.
I talked to my Subaru repair guy today and he thought the 6 cylinder
Outback is the way to go if I want a Subaru that can tow a small
trailer.
Here are my tentative conclusions:
1. Get the car, add the tow package.(it will be rated about 2900 lbs
after tow package)
2. find a trailer with a dry weight well below 1500lbs
3. install trailer brakes, if the trailer does not have them
4. pack carefully, weighing the total loaded and keep the loaded
trailer weight under say, about 1600lbs.
5. Tell the wife to go on a diet, er...no scratch that.
6. keep the added weight in the car to a minumum say, under 100lbs
6. do a test run, go weigh everything at a truck stop just to make sure
7. Make sure the solar panel is powering the fridge that is full of
beer.
8. Take lots of pics so I can show them off to you guys when we get
back

Hows that?