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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / April 2006trailer electrical question
I have a double axle utility dump trailer with electric brakes on all 4 wheels I pull with my mini cooper. The trailer has a deep cycle marine battery that works the electric hydraulic pump and also is connected to the break away switch. What I want to do is run two heavy wires from the battery of my f-150 to a connecter at the bumper (pos and neg). Then do the same from the trailer battery and connect it directly to the truck battery when hooking it up. I want to use the Alternator from the truck to keep the battery charged. Does anybody see a problem that this may cause. The manual that came with the break controller said not to test the break away switch with the trailer hooked to the truck. So that got me wondering if I could do any damage. But as of now I'm leaning towards no unless the trailer comes loose and trips the break switch. By then all the other wires should break apart before the breakaway trips. So the more I think about it , a fried break controller would be the least of my problems. Ill just have to make sure the trailer does not come loose. So what are the pro and cons of doing this? I've already checked to see if the 7 pin plug fed 12V into the battery to help charge it. But I got 0 Volts from the battery cable with the truck running and trailer hooked up. I don't plan on running the battery dead. Plus I would most likely leave the truck running when using the dump. Thanks. P.S I dont own a Mini > I have a double axle utility dump trailer with electric brakes on all 4 > wheels I pull with my mini cooper. The trailer has a deep cycle marine [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > P.S I dont own a Mini That statement does catch one's attention!! I guess you already know how the 7 pin connector is wired. http://marksrv.com/wiring.htm On the trailer, the 12 volt, pin 4 should connect directly to the battery. And the ground pin 1, should connect to the negative post. You want to have an auto reset circuit breaker or a fuse in the 12 volt line from the battery. I also have a breaker in the 12 volt line on the tongue of the trailer. The truck doesn't have a trailer harness? If you should happen to pull the break away switch it feeds 12 volts back on the brake controller line. I have done it on my 5th wheel (with a Tekonsha Prodigy) without any trouble. I threw something into the box on top of the break away cable and when backing it pulled and the brakes activated. You are not going to get a good charge from your truck. Just will keep the battery up. Use a good battery charger to bring it all the way up. Check this site: http://www.batteryfaq.org >> I have a double axle utility dump trailer with electric brakes on all 4 >> wheels I pull with my mini cooper. The trailer has a deep cycle marine [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > The truck doesn't have a trailer harness? Yes it has been wired at the factory. When I got the trailer All I had to do was wire a short harness that I already had that came with the truck (still had wax on the ends) to the break controller unit and plug the other end into a connector under the dash. I never thought I would use it until this year. Good thing I never threw it away. every thing but the trailer is wired by ford. The truck is a 94. I bought it in 96 and never pulled or hooked any thing to it until this year. believe it or not even though the outside of the plug was a little rough looking under the cap every thing looked brand new. It even had a little grease inside it. I was very surprised. It must be a standard code because when I plugged it in every thing worked as it should. >>> I have a double axle utility dump trailer with electric brakes on all 4 >>> wheels I pull with my mini cooper. The trailer has a deep cycle marine [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > a standard code because when I plugged it in every thing worked as it > should. If I am reading you correctly, you already have a 7 pin connector on the truck. Are you getting getting 12 volts at pin 4? If not I expect that you are missing a fuse somewhere under the hood. I didn't realize that 94's were wired for brake control too. As I said before you still probably have to hook up a charger to get that battery to full charge. For long battery life it is best not to run it below 50% state of charge. How about the trailer? Have a 7 pin connector for it? They are available at most any auto supply, RV or I think even in the RV section of auto supply at WalMart. >>> I guess you already know how the 7 pin connector is wired. >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > If I am reading you correctly, you already have a 7 pin connector on the > truck. Are you getting getting 12 volts at pin 4? Actually I never got around to checking # 4 pin on the truck > If not I expect that you are missing a fuse somewhere under the hood. I > didn't realize that 94's were wired for brake control too. I dont know if they all did or not, I am just guessing they did. My truck has 4 shocks in the front. one on each side of the spring. The back sits up higher then the front. I was told from people I work with that it had a suspension for towing. Other 94s Ive seen only had one shock per spring. It could have been removed too.Truck does not look like it has been modified by owner. It all looks stock. It only had 29K when I bought it. So I would not think a person would beef it up and get rid of it so soon. It rides like a wash board also. I have never been in anouther truck like mine so I dont know how most ride. Then again its a 4x4 short bed, so that may have somthing to do with the ride. Any how thats why I think its all factory. Even the harness has a Ford label on it. The directions showed only f-150 and bronco 94 models for the harness and plug under the dash. Im not sure if my truck is standard or special ordered. > As I said before you still probably have to hook up a charger to get that > battery to full charge. For long battery life it is best not to run it > below 50% state of charge. That should not be much of a problem. As I like to top it off after each use. The dealer said I could get about 35 dumps per charge. For now I avrage about 1 a week. The charger Im using goes from 2 amp to 300 amp I usely put it on 2 amp over night. Sometime 30 amps for 90 min. then 2 overnight if I use the dump more that day. > How about the trailer? Have a 7 pin connector for it? They are available > at most any auto supply, RV or I think even in the RV section of auto [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >was basically all plug and play for me. Only wiring I did was the break >controller to the harness that plugged under the dash below ashtray. > That should not be much of a problem. As I like to top it off after each > use. The dealer said I could get about 35 dumps per charge. For now I avrage > about 1 a week. The charger Im using goes from 2 amp to 300 amp I usely put > it on 2 amp over night. Sometime 30 amps for 90 min. then 2 overnight if I > use the dump more that day. The 300 is for assist in starting but can't be used for charging. Never should use that kind of current anyway. The 30 amp is good. As I already posted I looked up on the Tekonsha site and see that 94 Fords were wired for brakes. >> How about the trailer? Have a 7 pin connector for it? They are available >> at most any auto supply, RV or I think even in the RV section of auto [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> was basically all plug and play for me. Only wiring I did was the break >> controller to the harness that plugged under the dash below ashtray. So the battery is already wired up? Then when you plug in you should be getting charge from the truck. The truck usually comes with a 10 gauge wire for the 12 volts and ground. That should be more than adequate for your usage. >> That should not be much of a problem. As I like to top it off after each >> use. The dealer said I could get about 35 dumps per charge. For now I [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > wire for the 12 volts and ground. That should be more than adequate for > your usage. I have not got around to checking #4 pin. If I'm getting power then Ill assume they did not wire the trailer to maintain the battery. The dealer did say I would have to charge the trailer. I took it as It was not wired to maintain or help the battery. My guessing is they would not do that in fear of placing too much of a load on the factory wiring. Also I don't understand how a fuse can control the load other then blowing every time you use the dump. An automatic breaker I can see killing the power when the dump is active and restoring power when not active. Not counting the load the battery wants. So I still believe its in my best interest to use a power wire like the one I have already back their that can handle a full load, the one I use for my wore out electric winch. To be honest I'm a little nervous about changing the wires on my trailer when every thing works as it should. Warranty issues mostly. If it was not for needing the battery for the break away I would take it out and just use the truck to power the hydraulics >>> That should not be much of a problem. As I like to top it off after each >>> use. The dealer said I could get about 35 dumps per charge. For now I [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Warranty issues mostly. If it was not for needing the battery for the break > away I would take it out and just use the truck to power the hydraulics I once had a HI-LO trailer. I expect your load is similar to their lift system: http://www.hilotrailer.com They use a automobile starter motor to drive the hydraulic pump to raise and lower the top. With them it is imperative that you either have a auto-reset breaker (you can buy ones that fit right into a fuse slot) or unplug from the tow vehicle when raising or lowering the top. It would blow a 30 amp fuse immediately. To keep the battery charged when pulling you would need a wire from pin 4 of the trailer plug to the positive of the battery. The negative post may already be grounded. If the trailer has a harness with the plug you will probably find the wire to pin 4 tied back. Probably a black wire or possibly red. The break away switch may still be wired to the battery and would still work properly. If it is connected then the negative post of the battery has to be tied to the ground wire, Pin 1. Of course pin 1 is also needed for all the lights and brakes. So, if Pin 4 on the trailer is not connected to the battery I can't see any reason not to hook it up. That is the only thing it is for. >>> That should not be much of a problem. As I like to top it off after each >>> use. The dealer said I could get about 35 dumps per charge. For now I [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >Warranty issues mostly. If it was not for needing the battery for the break >away I would take it out and just use the truck to power the hydraulics Hi, Fuses don't control the load. Fuses protect the wiring and equipment. No fuse and if the wire gets overloaded it gets hot, melts and could catch on fire. Could also draw down your battery if the wire is big enough before it melts. Or destroy equipment or computers by drawing to much power through them or to them. You should have any auxiliary power wires fused or on a circuit breaker, including any you add in your truck. You size the fuse to the size of the wire, you size the wire to the size of the load it will carry. If you are blowing fuses you either have to small a wire or to big a load for the wire, that is if the fuse is the right size for the wire to begin with. That's why you should never just go to a bigger fuse without checking why fuses are blowing. If you don't want to wire it take it to a dealer and let them do it. It's no big deal. You are not changing any wiring just adding two wires and one fuse in the trailer if they are not there. You would put a bigger load on your truck battery and alternator by wiring directly to the hydraulics then to wire from the truck to the trailer battery to the hydraulics. You would be trying to pull large amounts of current through a probably small wire from your engine battery. Before you do something like that find out how many amps the hydraulics draw and then get a wire and fuse big enough to handle the current. Take care and Happy Campin...  SignatureRichA "We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart" >>>> That should not be much of a problem. As I like to top it off after >>>> each >>>> use. The dealer said I could get about 35 dumps per charge. For now I to power the hydraulics > Hi, > Fuses don't control the load. Fuses protect the wiring and equipment. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Take care and Happy Campin... I cant argue with what you are saying. because I know you are right. But the problem as I see is this. The power wire on the plug is most likely 10 gauge. The power wire on the pump is like a 4 gauge. The 10 gauge power wire for the plug I say cant handle much more then 20 amps. But that pump probably draws at least 40+amps. So by hooking the wire up as everybody said I'm thinking would blow fuses or start fires. I do feel like the trailer battery would take allot of the load off the plug. But what will happen when the battery does go dead by any reason. You have a 800 amp battery under the hood of the truck that going to push as much power through the 10 gauge wire to satisfy the power needs of a dead battery and a 40 or more amp motor. So my winch wire will handle that load far better then using the trucks wires. If someone can explain why I wont have to worry about overloading the trailer plug wires I would rather just have one plug to hook up. But I don't see how that going to work. So It would be much safer to run a separate plug for maintaining trailer battery and leave the rest of the wires alone. Other option would be to remove the 10 gauge wire and replace it with 4 gauge. But just using a different plug and wire will be easier then messing with the factory wires. Then again would the contacts in the trailer plug be able to handle it or would they overheat and start melting plastic. > But the > problem as I see is this. The power wire on the plug is most likely 10 > gauge. The power wire on the pump is like a 4 gauge. The 10 gauge power wire > for the plug I say cant handle much more then 20 amps. But that pump > probably draws at least 40+amps. So by hooking the wire up as everybody > said I'm thinking would blow fuses or start fires. No problem as long as you have a auto-reset breaker in the line from your truck. It is very similar to what I said was in the HI-LO trailer. When the pump starts the battery voltage will drop significantly, causing high current from the truck. The auto-reset breaker will open. When the pump turns off the breaker will close again. >But what will > happen when the battery does go dead by any reason. You have a 800 amp > battery under the hood of the truck that going to push as much power through > the 10 gauge wire to satisfy the power needs of a dead battery and a 40 or > more amp motor. So my winch wire will handle that load far better then using > the trucks wires. Again an Auto-reset breaker will handle that. I went one step further in the truck I used with the HI-LO. I had a large breaker I mounted on the firewall. I replaced the fuse with a 40 Amp fuse and then followed it with a 30 amp Circuit breaker. The fuse never blew. A total shorted battery such as you describe would be rare. More common is a dead short on the 12 volt line. That is why you need the fuse and/or breaker. The breaker will protect the wire from the truck but for what it is worth I would pull the plug. Even if you run a separate wire from your battery you are still faced with the same problem. You need to put some sort of protection in it and a several hundred amp fuse is not a good idea. >>>>> That should not be much of a problem. As I like to top it off after >>>>> each [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> much power through them or to them. You should have any auxiliary power >> wires fused or on a circuit breaker, including any you add in your <snipped> >I cant argue with what you are saying. because I know you are right. But the >problem as I see is this. The power wire on the plug is most likely 10 [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >factory wires. Then again would the contacts in the trailer plug be able to >handle it or would they overheat and start melting plastic. Hi, Your trailer battery should be supplying power to the pump. Nothing else. The wiring from your truck will be supplying power to charge the battery, nothing else. You want to be safe and protect your starting battery you disconnect the plug from the truck when you run the pump or put in an isolator and just shut the truck off. Why would you want the truck running anyway? You don't need it to run the pump. Then hook up the plug or start the truck when you are done and the battery will start recharging. What is the difference between running separate wires and using the ones that are in the trucks plug? You are arguing one is better then the other. If the wires are the same size there is no difference. I wouldn't want my trucks starting battery to be connected at all in any way when that pump is running. One thing not being able to use a pump it's another if I can't start my truck so I can get home or get parts to fix the pump. Same as with an RV you keep the starting battery separate from the other house batteries. Each has a separate job to do. Rich256 has the best way to do it if you for some reason want to keep the trucks starting battery connected to the trailer when running the pump. Or wire it using the existing plugs and just use the truck to charge the trailer battery. Use an isolator and shutting the truck off or if no isolator disconnecting the plug when using the pump. Or do it your way and run separate wires. Your choice. Take care and Happy Campin... SignatureRichA "We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart" >>>>>> That should not be much of a problem. As I like to top it off after >>>>>> each [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > Take care and Happy Campin... Another thought. If that 12 volt line (pin 4) is indeed hooked to the trailer battery and if he ran the pump while plugged into the truck, he now has a blown fuse somewhere under the hood. Anyone know where the trailer 12 volt fuse is on that Ford truck? I think I would be tempted to do something like I did with the HILO. Put about a 40 amp fuse in the truck. But I would mount a 30 amp circuit breaker in the 12 volt line on the tongue of the trailer before it gets to the battery. Still a good idea to unplug when using the pump to keep from exercising the breaker. >>>>>>> That should not be much of a problem. As I like to top it off after >>>>>>> each [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >>> more amp motor. So my winch wire will handle that load far better then using >>> the trucks wires. <snipped> >Another thought. If that 12 volt line (pin 4) is indeed hooked to the >trailer battery and if he ran the pump while plugged into the truck, he [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >it gets to the battery. Still a good idea to unplug when using the pump >to keep from exercising the breaker. Hi, Sounds good to me :) That's why they invented isolators and plugs :) Take care and Happy Campin... SignatureRichA "We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart" >>>>>>>> That should not be much of a problem. As I like to top it off after >>>>>>>> each [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Take care and Happy Campin... I met more than one HI-LO owner who said they were having "battery" problems. They were getting to their destination and finding that their battery was dead. They then had to get a jump to their trailer battery to get the top up. Every one had a blown fuse in their tow vehicle. They also had 12 volt option on their refrigerator. Blew the fuse lowering the top and then ran the battery down using the refrig. on the way to their campsite. If they had hookups they could then recharge the battery and go through the whole process again. I had each of them replace the fuse with an auto-reset breaker and no more problems. Also told them to try to remember to disconnect when raising or lowering the top. It was a pretty nice trailer for pulling. It really did not fall into the pop-up class. I called it a Travel Trailer with a vertical slide. > it was a pretty nice trailer for pulling. It really did not fall into > the pop-up class. I called it a Travel Trailer with a vertical slide. I have always been intrigued by the Hi-Lo travel trailer. http://www.hilotrailer.com After 13 years cranking up (and down) a popup camping trailer, to this day I am a bit leery of slide/tip/move/articulate with ANY RV. Is the improved towability of the Hi-Lo enough to offset its compromised LIVABILITY due to its design? They used to use non-solid walls around the bathroom. What technology do they use today? Yesterday, I saw a probably-brand-new 5th wheel and its latest model Dodge Ram all lashed-up with a For Sale sign. It was adjoining a brand new housing addition, for whatever that's worth. (Implies that it would be less likely that they are selling for health reasons, but I guess one never knows.) Knowing how badly brand new stuff depreciates in its first year or two, I began to wonder WHY they were selling. I thought about the CO$T of my "little" pastime: RVing. This season the little SkamperKamper needs a new set of tires, the brakes probably need doing and heaven knows what else will crop-up on this entry-level TT entering is 7th season. Then there's the big, honkin', gas-guzzling, BigBlock<tm> tow pickup. This weekend was probably the latest and nicest weekend that I have EVER *NOT* camped. I loved staying home and doing other things. Don't get me wrong, I missed camping, too, but, right now, money is tight and I didn't feel badly about not hauling the whole thing out to the state park 40 miles away. This is a new experience for me. Signature:) JR 2000 Skamper Ultra 249 TT 2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD Vortec 8100 - Allison 1000 > After 13 years cranking up (and down) a popup camping trailer, to this day I > am a bit leery of slide/tip/move/articulate with ANY RV. Their slide mechanism works very well. When someone bragged that they were able to set up their pop-up in XX minutes I used to say that my 60 year old wife with arthritis could set up ours in 10 seconds. > They used to use non-solid walls around the bathroom. What technology do they > use today? I haven't looked at one for a few years but the last time I looked it was still just a cloth half wall. > Yesterday, I saw a probably-brand-new 5th wheel and its latest model Dodge Ram > all lashed-up with a For Sale sign. I now have a 5th wheel and like it. Heavier of course and uses a lot more fuel to pull. And the Diesel is costing as much as gas. Living in Colorado I don't have to go far to find nice sites. I remember traveling across Kansas with my HILO when all the other trailers were pulling off because of the high winds. There are some really good bargains in the used market. Many older people that have to give it up and others who thought they would love it and found it wasn't what they expected. There are a lot of them listed as "used once", "used twice". >This season the little SkamperKamper needs a new set of tires, the brakes >probably need doing and heaven knows what else will crop-up on this >entry-level TT entering is 7th season. You're kidding, right? Two years ago I finally replaced the canvas, bearings and wheels on my trusty low end Starcraft. It was made in 1972. Five years ago I replaced the pulleys. Other than those things, nada. Heck, your pop-up is darn near still new! Tom >>This season the little SkamperKamper needs a new set of tires, the brakes >>probably need doing and heaven knows what else will crop-up on this [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Tom Jim no longer has a pop-up, he went to the dark side about the same time that Angela and I got our Taos (since replaced). BTW, the Taos is for sale, if anyone is interested.... SignatureKarl & Angela `02 Durango `05 Fleetwood Allegiance >> it was a pretty nice trailer for pulling. It really did not fall into >> the pop-up class. I called it a Travel Trailer with a vertical slide. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Is the improved towability of the Hi-Lo enough to offset its compromised >LIVABILITY due to its design? A similar design I recently became aware of is made by TrailManor http://www.trailmanor.com/ No personal experience to offer, but it looks interesting. Tom >>> it was a pretty nice trailer for pulling. It really did not fall into >>> the pop-up class. I called it a Travel Trailer with a vertical slide. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Tom That one works on a garage door principal. Uses springs to aid in swinging the sections up and down. It is more of a hard side pop-up, whereas the HI-LO is more a travel trailer with a vertical slide. The HI-LO is a lot heavier with dual axles and more insulation. Also a holding tank bath room instead of a chemical toilet. Trailmanor is probably better for large families. HI-LO is easier to set up but requires a lot heavier tow vehicle. >I dont know if they all did or not, I am just guessing they did. My truck >has 4 shocks in the front. one on each side of the spring. The back sits up [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >and bronco 94 models for the harness and plug under the dash. Im not sure if >my truck is standard or special ordered. Called the El Rancho model. The extra shocks are for heavy duty off roading and useless for towing. By that, I mean they do not add to the towing ability of the vehicle. SignatureFrank Tabor >>I dont know if they all did or not, I am just guessing they did. My truck >>has 4 shocks in the front. one on each side of the spring. The back sits [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > roading and useless for towing. By that, I mean they do not add to the > towing ability of the vehicle. I did not know that it was Called the El Rancho model. I originally thought it was for off roading then others were telling me it was to aid in towing. Shows how much I know > If I am reading you correctly, you already have a 7 pin connector on the > truck. Are you getting getting 12 volts at pin 4? > > If not I expect that you are missing a fuse somewhere under the hood. I > didn't realize that 94's were wired for brake control too. I don't know about '94's, but later model Fords have several relays under the hood which go to various parts of the hitch connectors (two, I think). They were listed in my (used) 2000 Expedition (which had the connector, but no hitch, which I installed) owner's manual, with a diagram. I simply had to get these at the Ford dealer and plug them in. HTH >> If I am reading you correctly, you already have a 7 pin connector on the >> truck. Are you getting getting 12 volts at pin 4? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > HTH OK, I just went looking at the Tekonsha web site and see that they have brake control harnesses going back to 1994. GM only goes back to 1999. http://www.tekonsha.com Maybe you have noticed that the Prodigy is one of the most popular. >I have a double axle utility dump trailer with electric brakes on all 4 >wheels I pull with my mini cooper. The trailer has a deep cycle marine [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >P.S I dont own a Mini Hi, No problem doing that its done all the time. You should run the wires to the 7 pin trailer plug instead though and use what you already have instead of installing a second plug and wires. A second plug and wires is something else to forget, perform maintenance on or break. Check between Pin 4 and Pin 1 on the 7 pin plug in the back of your truck not at the trailer battery. If you have 12V there you won't need to run any wire. Though you may have to do some of the other stuff listed below. That is assuming the plug is wired to standard 7 pin RV wiring guidelines. http://www.rverscorner.com/wiring/7pole.html On the trailer side run the positive wire (pin 4) and negative wire (pin 1) from the trailers 7 pin plug directly to the battery. Put a suitable sized fuse in the positive line for the size wire you are using should be at least 10 gauge wire. The negative is that if you leave the trailer plugged into the tow vehicle with the engine shut off, and have heavy use of the hydraulics you stand the chance of running down both batteries. To eliminate that problem you should install an isolator on the positive side of the wire you run from your trucks battery to the trailer plug in the back of the truck. That way when the engine is not running the trailer battery will be disconnected from the truck battery. When it is running they will both be connected together and the engine can charge both. Check to see if the vehicle might already have a built in isolator either solenoid or relay type. Take care and Happy Campin... SignatureRichA "We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart" >>I have a double axle utility dump trailer with electric brakes on all 4 >>wheels I pull with my mini cooper. The trailer has a deep cycle marine [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > suitable sized fuse in the positive line for the size wire you are using > should be at least 10 gauge wire. Luckily for me I already have a wire that goes to a winch that you sit on the ball. The winch is pretty much wore out and I have tied the wire to the frame. So really I just need to change the end and run a short piece to the battery on the trailer. I'm not really worried about running the truck battery down because I will just get out and leave it running when dumping. Also if I would forget to plug it in The only harm done is not being able to dump the load. But I think the dealer said I could get about 35 dumps on a fully charged battery. I may use it 8 times a week at the most. It may sit unused for several weeks at a time. |
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